Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Bernd Vogel.
Many pilots dream of getting their tandem license one day and maybe even earning a living as a tandem pilot. One person who has done this for almost his entire flying career is Bernd Vogel from Allgäu. Bernd is probably one of the most senior active tandem pilots in Germany. Of his 51 years, he has spent 22 under a tandem glider, taking thousands of people through the air. A man like that simply has a massive wealth of experience that I wanted to tap into a bit for Podz-Glidz listeners. In the next hour, it will be almost exclusively about flying with the two-seater, where it should quickly become clear that the art of tandem flying isn't just shown in the pilot's steering skills, but above all in his great understanding of people.
Bernd, I just introduced you as one of the most senior tandem pilots in Germany. How long have you actually been flying? Well, I've been tandem flying for 22 years, and solo for a bit longer. How did you get into...
How did you get into tandem flying? What interested you about it? Well, I had a girlfriend who didn't want to fly herself, but she was always coming along, and she was basically always like the fifth wheel. Then I came up with the idea of saying, "Look, I'll get a tandem license, then she can fly with me, because then she won't just be standing around looking silly."
So you started out by taking your girlfriend along, but today it's your profession. How did that happen? I mean, when did you actually discover tandem flying as a career for yourself?
So, let's put it this way: I did my first commercial flight right on the day of the exam. It was a funny story, because we had finished our two exam flights and then a lady came over and saw that tandem flying was being done. But she didn't know that those were actually our exam flights. And when we were finished with our two exam flights, all five of us were sitting on the landing strip, basically waiting for the results from the examiner and the flight instructor. And then this lady stormed over and asked the examiner and the flight instructor. And before we even got our results, he gave her the answer.
Bernd Vogel is flying with you afterwards. And then I knew I'd passed the exam. So I did my first commercial flight right then and there, and I had no idea what I should be asking for.
And how much did you charge back then?
Oh, I don't know anymore. But I think, price-wise, it was back in the D-Mark days, I think I was 50 D-Marks or something, I was totally excited.
Today you live near Fronten and fly mainly at the Breiten. Is that, since you say you've been flying for 22 years, has that really been your main flight area for 22 years? Or how did you end up there?
No, I've actually only been going there for the last few years. I used to fly a lot in Immenstadt, in the Allgäu, and Oberstdorf. I also worked as a commercial tandem pilot in South Tyrol for a full season for one year. Where in South Tyrol? In the Merano area, in the Passaiatal. Is it good for tandem flying? A nice area? Yes, very beautiful. You have good launch sites, very steep launch sites, a gigantic view, you can choose between the launch sites, different altitudes, a gigantic panorama. Wonderful, different launch sites, different directions.
And now the Breitenberg, where you mainly fly now, is that actually a good spot for tandem flying?
If the wind is right. We need, let's say, north - or north-easterly, or also south-easterly conditions, then it's okay. We can't fly there with a west wind. That's a bit of a downside to that mountain, because depending on the year, you often have westerly conditions, and then it's not so good. We have different launch sites in different directions, but the west direction is out. But in terms of the panorama, it's very good there. The people, or the passengers, get to see the high alpine terrain once with the Zugspitze in the background and the Brandjoch there. They can look over towards Füssen, Neuschwanstein, for example. It goes out into the lowlands, where they can see all the lakes, like Forgensee. It's something beautiful.
for the eyes, you mean?
It's something beautiful to look at. They have both. If they're flying in a valley, they'll have a mountain on the opposite side as well. So they can have both. One time a mountain in the background, relatively high alpine, and on the other side, complete flatland.
Well, you've been flying for 22 years now. Has the goal changed for you? Has tandem flying changed in any way over time, or has your attitude toward tandem flying changed?
My personal attitude towards tandem flying has changed a lot over the years. I also had to do apprenticeship years. In terms of technology, a lot has changed too. Just like with solo gliders, tandem gliders are now very easy to launch and have very precise handling. Glide performance, climb performance, flairing, out-flairing, for example—it has evolved very significantly, just like a solo glider.
Well, you just said you went through apprenticeship years. What kind of training did you do during those years?
Well, as a new tandem pilot, you have to learn quite a bit besides the actual tandem flying. It's completely changed for me, that today I focus more on the psychological side than on the flying itself. People used to always think that as a tandem pilot, you have to show off how well you can fly. But in tandem flying, it's more important to focus on the person—that you're actually providing a service for them.
So you're flying in the back, but you're thinking that the main job of a tandem pilot is actually being a people person, and maybe a psychologist or something like that?
So when we have children with us, you're a childcare provider, you have to entertain the kids. With children, it's relatively uncomplicated to fly. Adults, some of them have already seen or heard things in the media, so there's a risk, I'd say. Or you have to be more of a psychologist to calm them down. And then different people come along, you have to brake some a little, build others up, calm them down, and so on.
When you say you've gone through lessons, was that basically learning by doing, that you've developed in a certain way? Did you develop into a kind of psychologist or someone who understands people, or did you also get professional help elsewhere?
No, well, back then there was no professional help. Sure, you make some mistakes in the first two years, you fly too fast, too wildly. And what the ultimate result of that is, is that you don't take the passenger into account enough. And the end of the line is that the passenger might feel sick and then more or less have to throw up. And
the end result is that the passenger might feel sick and then more or less have to throw up.
And of course, that's not nice for the passenger, because he's actually supposed to be standing at the landing field having a great experience and saying, "Cool, I'm going back up right away." And the second thing is, if the passenger obviously has to throw up, the pilot might get some of it if he doesn't know how to handle it at first, and that's not very nice either. And you learn from these lessons, of course. If it happens to you two or three times, you learn from that to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it happens to you two or three times, you learn from that to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Then you learn from that to make sure it doesn't happen again. Now give me the little trick: if you say I have a passenger up front, you see they have to throw up now, what do you do so you don't get hit by it?
Now give me the little trick: if you say I have a passenger in front, you see they're about to vomit, what do you do so you don't get it on you? Now give me the little trick: if you say I have a passenger in front, you see they're about to vomit, what do you do so you don't get it on you? how it feels for them while flying. And when it's time, or before it's time, you have to lay the passenger out sideways. So you drive with the knee down and the skirt side in, press it to the left for example with the knee, and then you take the passenger by the shoulder at the top and tilt them out to the side. You can also hold their head down.
That
do you really hold on then? Do you let go of the brake for that and say, "okay, he's going to throw up now"?
No, for example, I take the brake into my left hand. Then I can keep flying, fly through curves, or fly straight ahead. I don't give up control of the aircraft. I take the brake in my left hand, press him to the left with my right knee, and with my right hand, I basically grab him by the neck and tilt him out to the right, while also holding his head down. But you really have to keep doing that until he's empty, because it usually happens twice.
Okay, let's move on from this unpleasant topic for a bit. Just one more question: how often does something like that still happen to you?
So, in the early years, the first, let's say, three to five years, it happened more often, yeah. Because you just flew too wildly or you didn't pay enough attention to the passenger. Today, for example, during the season, it doesn't happen to me the whole season. I didn't have a single instance of that in 2018.
Even though 2018 was a pretty active year for thermals, you always fly past all the thermals because you want the people to arrive down there safely and happy.
Yes, the important thing is that you actually have to see yourself as a tandem pilot, as a service provider, how shall I put it. And it's simply important that the passenger stands happily on the ground and doesn't have to lie on the ground somewhere, that they can get their feet up, that they come to their senses again in half an hour, but rather on days like we had in 2018, you just have to see it that way. The passenger is a pedestrian, they're usually doing this for the first time, have no prior knowledge, and they're jumping straight into the top flight at the very top. And on thermally grumpy days, it's just very important to fly around every thermal, that you don't actually seek out any thermal at all, but rather only look for the spots, you know that from your home park,
where it goes up or down, then you actually only look for spots, for example, where it goes down, and then you're in the air long enough. And depending on what the passenger booked, whether they booked a thermal flight or a normal flight—if they booked a normal flight, then on high-activity days in June or July, they're still out there for 20 minutes, sometimes even with their ears tucked in. And it's just very important that you hit every lift spot, whether it's from a thermal or from the wind, because he's heading away against the hand-prallt and flying around it. And if he has a thermal flight, then just glide very lightly along the mountain so that he slowly comes up without circling.
So that means in your classic tandem flights, you don't circle at all?
Pretty much not at all. Only on weak days, when I absolutely have to and I notice the passenger is going along with it. And even then, I don't center it tightly, but just very broadly, so it doesn't feel like a circle to him. Because tight, circling movements and high or higher climb rates will knock every pedestrian over after two minutes, at the latest. You
You said earlier that you're always talking to the passengers. Does talking actually help so they don't feel sick? I mean, do they have to talk back too and breathe normally? Or what kind of questions do you ask them?
We talk constantly. For example, when we take off, I fly along the mountain and show them how I steer. They look up, and I show them that when I pull left, the paraglider goes left. When I pull right, it goes right. Then they start to build trust and realize, oh, you can actually steer this thing just like a car. Pretty much to the exact square meter.
Do you ever let them steer it themselves? I mean, do you hand it over to them at all, or do you basically not do that?
If the situation allows, meaning if there aren't too many pilots in the air and we have enough space, and if it's not demanding in terms of the day, wind, and weather, then I do let them take the controls, because they always find that quite good. Then you can distract them from their fear, from the altitude, and they're also occupied. And the talking is very important. What I do, and I also tell my pilots, talk to the people permanently. Then you know how they're doing, how they feel. And when talking, it's just very important to have a calm voice, also let in a bit of joy, tell a joke once in a while during the flight, then they're occupied and you don't leave them sitting there alone in the front. And this isn't a tragedy, it's supposed to be a joyful experience for the people.
And when it comes to talking, it's just really important that, for example, when you're flying, the pilot knows what he's doing, but the passenger doesn't know where you're flying. You have to announce every turn during the flight—this flight, everything you've planned or flown in advance. That's very important.
It's like using a turn signal, just actually with words. You say, I'm flying to the left now. Exactly. Or, we're turning right at the fir tree up ahead. Or what do you say then?
Exactly. For example, we fly along the mountain. In the first round, we fly along the mountain first. That way, you don't have quite as much altitude. So, it's not just flying straight out of Bolzgrad with that brutal height. Instead, you stay on the mountain a bit first, so the slope of the mountain still plays a part. Because of that, he has less altitude. So, and then you just fly along for a bit and tell him, "Somewhere up there, we're turning right, and then we'll fly the whole thing back." And now comes a crucial point. At the moment he was there before, "we're turning right." He prepares for that and turns his head to the right. And then I say it again before I turn right again and fly the whole thing back. Because at the moment I say, "Okay, now we're turning right again and flying the whole thing back," he doesn't look left, but looks straight into the curve to the right.
And that's just important. Because otherwise, the world just flies by in front of his eyes really fast. And that's one reason why many people can start feeling sick.
You get this carousel effect. Now, this is that psychology where you say you've actually developed it yourself, learned it yourself. Do you think that's a topic—this topic of psychology and dealing with, yeah, your passengers—that should actually be covered more extensively in tandem training?
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because nowadays, it's actually very important to cater to the individual. And you really need to know in advance who is coming. You can do that through a phone call, where you just ask for their age, height, and weight, so you know what kind of person is coming towards you. Many tandem pilots make an appointment or have one assigned to them. They have no idea who is coming. Is it a child? Is it an older lady? And accordingly, you have to plan the weather, so to speak. I can't do a launch in the evening or early morning with a passenger who has mobility issues if the wind isn't right yet. I'll schedule them for another time. The people I already like on the phone who have mobility issues, I'll schedule them for around noon.
where we have enough lift. But ideally, you should already know who is coming to you beforehand. And then you can maybe answer two or three questions and take away some of their fear to a certain extent.
Now you're saying that happens more often with you, taking away the passengers' fear. How many passengers come to you where you'd say they're actually so scared they don't even want to take off?
That's about 30 to 40 percent.
How many of those do you actually manage to get into the air? In the end, all of them?
All of them. And
How do you manage to get those people—the 40 percent who are actually so scared they don't even want to do it—how do you get them over that threshold?
Just take the pressure off through a calm conversation before you even take off—like a phone call beforehand when you don't even know each other yet, just getting in touch with them. Then you can figure out if they have to fly because, for example, they got a voucher from their motorcycle buddies and they're always playing the "tough Max" role, but they have a weak spot and they've basically been coerced into flying. And then you can take away their fear and say, "Come on, we'll do a nice morning flight, the air is totally calm, we won't be up there for very long," and then I'll explain a bit over the phone in advance if I can already sense from the conversation, "Oh, he doesn't actually want to, but he has to."
Or if the people arrive in a group and stand in front of you, you just take the time pressure off a bit. Sometimes they come in a group, then you take that person aside for five minutes and talk to them alone, letting the others stay there where they're cracking all those great jokes like, "Have you taken out your life insurance?" and so on, "Are you wearing diapers?"—the stuff that drives them crazy. I just take them out of the crowd and talk to them privately, and then they realize, "Oh, I can actually do this." I always tell people, "Look, when we go up there, you're like my second set of eyes. I'm going to look out for you; I'll get you up there, and I'll get you back down completely safely."
Now you're saying a lot about taking time, pulling someone aside, and stuff like that. In some flight areas where you can get to, where there's really intense tandem activity—Ossiacher See, for example, or something like that—you sometimes get the impression that there's no time at all; it's just pushed forward, take off, land, and then the next ones are already there, already signed up, the pilot arrives and they're basically just handed over to him. Is that actually the wrong way to handle tandem passengers for you?
Definitely. I used to make that mistake sometimes, or rather, I had to, back when I was employed, but even then I realized pretty quickly that sometimes five minutes helps a lot to take the pressure off. Sure, the tandem pilot—let's just say, if he does it purely professionally, he's scheduled for the whole day—but he has to pull himself together and say, look, I need a buffer, because some contingency happens every day, either the wind doesn't fit for a moment or whatever, or you have to take five or ten minutes of breathing room for a special flight. And it's just important that he's aware of that and that he's actually a service provider who should be conveying the hobby of paragliding.
Well, you're not just flying alone anymore; you have other pilots flying for you now, so you're a real tandem business. And there's always the thing that you pay your pilots and so on. That's obviously professional, it's commercial, it's about doing business. Now, you have influences like the weather. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's not, or sometimes it's borderline or something. How do you deal with that? Can I say, no, I'd like to do the flight, then I'll have another 150 euros, or do you say, no, that's actually getting a bit borderline now? So, what do you decide based on?
I personally have to say that for me, it's about having clean conditions, that I can lead the flight down without any danger. So if a flight is questionable, from my gut, if I just have to say, oh, the wind and weather don't fit anymore, then I don't care about that one flight. I just cancel it because there's no point in putting yourself in danger. Of course, you also have another human life involved. But just by noticing, from a gut feeling, that it's not good, then I won't take off anymore. So because of one flight, when you do a few hundred flights a year, it doesn't matter. I say safety first. Of course, a tandem pilot naturally, or a tandem pilot must naturally, towards a normal—or a normal pilot,
...should be able to take off, he has to have a different pain threshold regarding wind, where maybe another pilot won't take off at 20 km/h, I have no problem with that. Or my pilots might say, "Finally, we have a decisive takeoff wind starting at 20 km/h." So we don't have a problem with flying at 25 or 30 km/h. Even at the Breitenberg? Even at the Breitenberg. The conditions just have to be clean, yeah.
What do you mean by clean conditions for tandem flying? So even if there's strong wind, it means it can't be turbulent, it shouldn't be too thermic, right?
I actually have to fly in a way where I don't have to activate or even think about the reserve glider in the slightest. I always have to fly so that I can make the flight completely safe from top to bottom and still have a decent buffer. That's just important. Sure, a tandem pilot naturally has a different
threshold, or rather, he should be, let's say, a bit more seasoned, like a solo pilot. He has to be able to handle more and deal with more, whether it's in terms of thermals or the wind. For a tandem pilot, it's obviously an important requirement that he brings a different caliber to the table.
But you just said a moment ago that you actually fly around the thermals, and now you're saying a tandem pilot also has to be able to handle stronger thermals. So you do go out in strong thermal conditions too, you just look for the right spots, or how am I supposed to understand that?
Right, exactly. Some solo pilots, sure, they might sit there at one or two o'clock and take a two or three-hour break until everything has died down again. But a tandem pilot basically, even when it's highly thermically active, works through the whole thing; he doesn't have a lunch break or anything, or like, "let's do two hours of idling"—that doesn't work if it's a good flyable day. It's just that a good tandem pilot knows where his spots are, where it goes up and down, or maybe even a complete flight from top to bottom, right after takeoff until just before landing, has his ears in for 20 or 25 minutes.
Do you actually fly all year round, including in the winter?
Yes, summer like winter. I think every season has its own appeal. I like winter too, flying over the snow-covered landscape, just like in the summer or in the spring, where it's white up top and green down below. Or I also like autumn, where the light is very soft and not so harsh. The colors are different. And for the passenger, autumn is actually ideal for flying. Because the air is calmest and the colors are most beautiful, right? Exactly. The colors and especially the air are very steady, and when there are thermals, they're smooth—not as pulsing as they can be in the spring or in the summer.
Well, you've been flying mainly at the Breitenberg for many years now. Haven't you started to get bored of it, thinking you know the rock for the thousandth time now, that you're flying over it or something like that?
Sure, you're almost familiar with some of the rocks when you go to the launch site, in every way regarding the whole thing. But it's still exciting because every day is different, every passenger is different, and you just meet a lot of new people, interesting people. And every day is a new challenge. There's no second flight in the sense where you say, okay, this is now standard—passenger XY, it's going to go like this and that. No, you can actually never say for sure. It's a new challenge every time. And I still enjoy putting a smile on the passengers' faces. Or when they've finished the flight and the passenger lands below or gives you a thumbs up or says, wow, that was awesome, I'd love to do another hour now.
You just said there are some very interesting people involved. What were some of the special highlights, someone you were allowed to fly? Some celebrity or somewhere? Or do you mean it was a particularly special person for a completely different reason?
Yes, I've had people with me who, for example, were totally terrified; they'd never even ridden in an elevator or a stairlift. Just getting them up the gondola was already the biggest challenge. Those are the kinds of experiences, and I've had people like that with me many times. And when you tell them that so much more is possible in life, or that you can take away their fear. When you have people with you who have never used a stairlift or an elevator, and you take them flying, you make it clear to them that the gondola is the safest means of transport, just like an elevator or an escalator. And then, for example, two weeks later, you get a few WhatsApp photos of them standing in a department store, riding the escalator.
And then you know exactly, hey, you've made something possible in his life, you've taken away his fear of riding escalators, for example. Or small children, they are brilliant to fly because they let out pure joy. The youngest children I've taken were five. The oldest person was a lady who was 96, whom I took with me, and she took me in her arms. I had to hold back my own tears. Or I wasn't allowed to let it show. Because it was so moving. Or specifically with that lady, she absolutely wanted to fly. And no one else in the entire Alpine region had taken her. But I've also had blind people with me, for example. Or next year we're going to take a wheelchair user, for example.
And letting people share in something like that, that makes you happy too.
So, you just said flying with blind people—how do they experience that? Or do you mainly tell them what you see? Or how do you handle things with them?
So, for the blind, of course, they need a bit more time. It starts at the launch site. They can't see where they're walking. But with them, for example, we walk the path where we take off three times up and down. They touch the ground with their hands, for instance. Or they know the path where you run down; they can feel with their feet how uneven it is or not. The blind person is actually almost better to fly with than a normal person. Because the blind person actually almost sees. I don't need to explain to them that I'm currently flying over a village. Many people think, oh, you have to tell them everything you see. No, no, they have completely different senses. For example, if there's a fire somewhere or something has been burned, they can smell that.
Or if you're flying over a town, for example, he hears the cars driving below because his senses are just brutally sharpened. He hears the cars honking, he hears all these other sounds that a normal mortal or a non-blind person wouldn't notice. Or the smells, too. That
do they say that too? Do they say, are we over a city right now, and then you say, yeah, exactly? Or how?
Do I have to imagine that? You can really say that exactly. He says, we're flying over the trees right now, are those pines down there? Because he smells that pine scent when the sun shines in, much more intensely than I do.
You can imagine that. All the other senses are sharpened. And you also mentioned that you fly with children. Do you fly a bit differently with them? I mean, sometimes they're like that, they also like riding carousels or whatever. So, are you maybe a bit more playful with them? Or do you still have to fly very carefully with children?
With kids, you have to warm them up a bit. It's usually like this with children—they can never get enough of the aerobatics, the spirals, or whatever else. They keep saying, "Uncle, more, more!"
I can actually fly until I almost get dizzy myself. I mean, they have no inhibitions at all. There are very few kids who don't like turns, or almost none. They're totally into it. If you were flying normally, like with someone who's 40 or 50 and is scared, they'd say, "Man, that was so boring." But they need the turns, the spirals, the high wing maneuvers—it can never be wild enough. They're always like, "Uncle, another turn, can we do another turn, another turn?" Or if I say, "Now we have to land," they go, "Ah, I want three more turns."
That's how it is. It's actually quite funny. That's why I love kids. They let their joy out. They have no prejudices, no preconceived fears. They're unbiased or not biased. Starting and landing is easy, because with kids, for example, to start, yeah, you pull the glider up, you basically take one step and then they're hanging on your chest. And it's the same with landing. Totally unproblematic to land. Sure, with me at almost 1.90 meters, let's say, if I'm standing on the ground and the glider falls down, they'll eventually hit the ground too. By then, everything is basically over. And it's the same with the start as well.
How do you do that with gliders? And kids, do you also have smaller gliders? Specifically for when you say, I have a child as a passenger? Or do you have a standard one that fits just as well, where you say it starts at 110 and goes up to 210 or whatever the weight range is?
I have different large gliders. I have a special glider that I only take out for children or very light people. I can take children with me in that one, for example. I can't because as a pilot I unfortunately already weigh 100 kilos. I'd prefer 90 or 85, but I already weigh 100 kilos myself. And I have a small tandem glider that starts at 110. So, if you add the equipment, I can actually fly with that even without a child. And if I take a child with me—I sometimes have children with me who, if they are 5 or 6, weigh about 18, 19, 20, 72 kilos on average. And that is completely unproblematic.
So I'm already in a good weight range for that. And I actually only fly with children in the mornings. I don't fly during the main thermal period.
What about the parents then? Do you have to calm them down more sometimes? The kids, they probably just want to do it. How do you deal with the parents? Do you have to take them aside for five minutes and say, "I've got this under control"?
Yes, well, if the parents are there, you need a consent form from them. That's very clear. Usually, both parts are there. Then I take one part up with me and leave one part at the landing field. There's always a legal guardian there with them. It's very good if they are there as a pair, you take one part up. Then someone is there for the takeoff. You don't need a parent during the flight itself. But for the landing, it's also good again, because the child needs to get rid of their impressions, their experiences. Of course, they let go of me too. But it's naturally great for a child if Mom or Dad is standing down there and the child can rush towards Mom. Cool, that was awesome!
And then he jumps back
to the pilot.
Can we do that again?
A tandem pilot in Amlijak, Slovenia, once told me that he goes flying all the time, but he actually never flies for longer than 20 minutes. No matter how he flies, because he says he's had the experience that after 20 minutes, the adrenaline and the fun and all that are at their peak. Then they land and say, "That was awesome, I want to do that again." But if he's flown for longer than 20 minutes—say, half an hour or 35 minutes—then they land and he asks, "So, how was it?" They say, "Yeah, it was quite nice," but then they come back with a completely different attitude, just because of the brain chemistry or whatever. Have you had experiences like that too?
Yes, that's true, I can confirm that; the pilot is right, or almost 100 percent correct. I do fly with people longer sometimes, depending on the situation. I might fly for forty-five minutes or even an hour with some. However, you have to say that flying for about 20 or 25 minutes is what everyone can still handle well. From 25 minutes, or 20 to 25 minutes, you have to be brutally careful. That's the threshold where, if you go beyond it, someone might start feeling sick.
Could it be that this first adrenaline rush you get, just from the excitement, actually prevents the feeling of getting sick at first? The body is like that at first...
in a state of alertness where he says, I'm not going to feel sick, I have to watch exactly what's happening. But once you've tuned into it a bit and you basically become physically calmer, that's when he suddenly notices, oh, now it's getting hazy.
I can confirm that in the first moment, he actually can't get sick from excitement. He only gets sick if the pilot flies too excessively, if he climbs too high on the wing, or simply seeks out the thermals and circles too tightly or climbs too quickly. Those are things the passenger doesn't like at all. You can knock him out after a minute, or even after the first minute.
You should start the whole thing slowly and confidently at first. Fly very calmly at first so he can get used to it, and then slowly enter the thermals and go up with him very slowly. And then you can build the whole thing up and expand it a bit. And always fly calmly. That is very important. No wild maneuvers, no tight turns. Fly very smoothly. Like when you say you have a glass of water or a very flat teacup with you and it's full of water. You actually have to arrive at the bottom with the water. But of course, there are also people who are a bit... who can handle a bit more. They like it a bit more intense. But there aren't that many of them. And with them, you can also build it up a bit so that, I'd say, while flying, if you want to fly with them longer, you give them a little kick bit by bit.
Where you then say, first you fly with a completely normal lift band, then you circle upwards, then maybe you go over the mountain with them, let them see the mountains from above, then fly out into the flatlands, then they get some altitude, and then at the end you can say, okay, you'll give them a few kicks with a high wing-over or a powerful spiral at the end. Then they're in a permanent adrenaline rush until the very end. Then you can also stretch that out over an hour. Not that they'll say after 20 minutes, I'm bored now. So you can definitely build up that kick.
So you said earlier that most of the passengers you have are actually pedestrians who are getting into the air for the very first time. Do you also sometimes have real pilots who say, "Hey, I want to do a tandem flight with a real tandem pilot, and maybe I'll learn something from you or something"? Or does that never happen?
Yes, I have. A really good cross-country crack won't go tandem flying because there's nothing you really need to show him. But I've had beginner pilots or some pilots who are currently in training with me. Or even pilots who are, let's say, six months out of training but don't really grasp tandem flying. And then I take them along and show them how it's done.
That means they book you specifically and say, "Look, I'd like to learn to fly thermals, show me how you do it here." And then you let them steer it themselves too?
At the beginning, of course not. Depending on the pilot, how he feels, how he carries himself, what his attitude is, what his prerequisites are, what experience he already has, and what the wind and weather are like that day. Often, pilots don't know how close they can get to the terrain or how or where. And in that case, it feels really good in the tandem. Then I can explain to them why you're flying the thing around like that now, why you're starting with circles and and and. And once he's eventually grasped it, or I sometimes have them say, okay, steer with me, we're both steering the thing, so he gets a bit of a feel for it. He keeps his hands pretty loose and steers more or less along with me. Then he knows the why, the how, and the reason.
Then he also feels a bit of control pressure. He feels,
when you pull out on the outside and how you react to that. Or
for example, learning spirals. Most pilots can't spiral. They don't know how much to push back, for instance. That you can lead a spiral out perfectly clean, without any climb at all. And you can also learn that with a pilot, for example, how to spiral.
Actually, that would be a great alternative to starting with SIV training, or maybe even before SIV training, to say you test it out once with a tandem pilot. You could actually offer that as a classic service. You say, I'll do steep spiral training with you. To
Example. You're giving me new business ideas, Lucian. But it would be important because they actually go into SIV training and over water-tumbles blind. They have no idea what's going to happen or what it's going to feel like. They're used to flying straight in a normal state, and especially in a bank with massive G-forces, at massive speeds, and they're then more or less all alone up there. So they know they have someone on their back who can intervene if the whole thing were to somehow go south. They don't have to do it alone. Sure, the person on the radio below is telling them what to do, but it's still someone on their back who is telling them or who knows how much—yeah, who can more or less save the whole thing.
I've also had pilots fly with me where I said, come on, you do two-thirds of the maneuvers now, and I'll do one-third. Or the other way around, depending on how advanced or less advanced the pilot is. Now,
Tandem pilots who fly a lot in one area are actually the best locals you can find. They know it inside out in all kinds of weather, flying in all conditions, summer like winter, just like you now. If I were to come to the Breitenberg as a solo pilot for the first time, or to other classic tandem regions, would it be worth it to just take a tandem pilot as a role model or approach them? Would you be open to that, or would you say, "No, I've got a business to run here"?
So, I notice sometimes at the Breitenberg—you know the people who fly there in moderate rain—there are sometimes people on site where you can tell, oh, they're complete beginners, they're just stranded there for some reason. And I'll say, just follow me, I'll show you where the best launch site is, where we're going. Because we tandem pilots, we always try to take the best launch site, where the wind fits best, because we don't want to make it unnecessarily hard for ourselves. And I'll take that one, just tell the people, just follow me discreetly. Because they're standing down there, discussing, oh, there are five launch sites, yeah, which one do I have to go to, where does the wind fit best? And when you see that, someone is standing in front of the board, then I say, come on, you don't have to search long, just follow me, I know which one to take.
And they just shuffle along behind you and are so relieved when someone takes them by the hand. It was exactly the same for me back when I first started flying. I didn't know where to go when I was on an unfamiliar mountain either. And I always stuck to the local cracks, for example, the tandem pilots. They'd look at me right away to see if I was just a chatterbox or if I was serious. And if it was a serious guy, I'd ask, "Where are you heading later, can I follow you?" And that's actually what I do now, just the other way around. I'm giving back what helped me back then. And that's actually a nice gesture, because the pilots are grateful for it. Especially when you have five different launch sites.
Well, there are many areas where, even when there's a lot of tandem activity, the tandem pilots are often like the local big shots. The solo pilots are a bit unsure, they're hanging around, looking about, and then boom, the tandem pilot comes along, slams their gear down in front of them and says, "I have to get out of here really fast with my passenger." What's your recommendation for the solo pilots there? Basically, how much consideration should they show the tandems in return? Or how can you achieve a good coexistence?
You should be able to get along well with each other. Especially the solo pilots—they should actually know that the tandem pilot is making his living with that. And of course, it's annoying for a tandem pilot if a solo pilot is somewhere at the launch site, possibly laying out his glider without having put on his harness or helmet yet. And maybe they're even adjusting the variometer or changing batteries, while the glider is lying right in the middle of the launch site. That's annoying, of course. But that's actually annoying everywhere, even for other solo pilots. But solo pilots should show a bit of consideration and say, "Come on, watch out, I'll let the tandem pilot out first, because after that the air is clear, then I'll have enough time."
Especially some who are unsure or who take a bit longer to launch.
Because, well, they just cause, let's say, a bit of unnecessary congestion for the tandem pilots. But generally, you can talk to each other; if you see, oh, someone needs a bit longer, the tandem pilot goes over to the solo and says, hey, you can take off ahead of me for a second. And I think if you, as a tandem pilot, politely ask the solo pilot, hey, look, I'm a bit under time pressure, can you take off ahead of me, they usually say yes, sure, I'm on vacation, that's fine. Yeah. For the solo pilots, the beginners or whatever, they often don't know what kind of time pressure the tandem pilot actually has to deal with all day.
Because he's on a tight schedule, and one delay might trigger another, which then pushes him back by an hour, and as a result, he might not be able to work through or complete his daily program.
You say it's tightly scheduled, for example, at the Breitenberg on a good day. How many tandem flights can a pilot manage with up and down? What's actually possible there?
Let's say, on a normal day, when the wind and weather are right, if he has a normal day with, say, three or four flights, then that's actually easy. Of course, that also depends on how much professional experience the tandem pilot has. A brand-new tandem pilot who's only had his license for maybe a year or six months—one or two flights are actually enough for him. I'd say that's already a bit of a schedule for him. If he has three and the wind and weather are all good, then he's actually quite busy. For a purely professional, hardened, long-time tandem pilot who has, let's say, the corresponding professional experience, like ten years or so, three or four flights are an easy schedule for him.
Four flights throughout the day, if the weather is right, is a light schedule for him. It gets more athletic when he has five flights or maybe even has to do six. But even then, he shouldn't let the passenger notice that he's actually a bit tightly scheduled. If he's a truly professional, good tandem pilot, he shouldn't let the passenger notice that things are getting rushed anywhere.
If you have one of those tightly packed days and say, "I've got five flights planned and I'm going to do them for you," are you also physically exhausted by the evening? Or is it mainly a mental feat because you had to adjust to five different people, greeting them, de-escalating stressful situations, and all that? So, where does the main effort actually lie for you?
So physically, you're really only exhausted if the temperatures are high, for example. If you have 25, 30 degrees all day, the only thing that really wears you out physically are the external factors like wind and weather. But most of it is actually a mental thing. Because you have to deal with every person, everyone is different and so on. That's actually the main reason why you're finished by the evening—mentally, psychologically.
You have to adapt to all sorts of different passengers. So, who is your average passenger? Are they more female, more male, older, younger? How should I imagine them?
Well, there's a very clear rule. Man, woman—over the entire 22 years, women have made up the vast majority, about two-thirds of the passengers. Every year. Really? The
women fly with you more than the
Women? They
Men don't dare, or they say they're too
proud? Men don't dare. The female gender is a bit more of an adrenaline junkie there. They're a bit more open. Every year, when I do the statistics at the end of the year, if the women are only at 60 percent, that's actually low. But on average, it's 65 to 70 percent where the women predominate. The men, that's always only a third.
And are there also differences between men and women during the flight? So, are the women tougher when it comes to taking it than the men?
Definitely. How do you explain that? I don't know. Women are a bit more adrenaline-seeking, to be honest. Men are more reserved there. They're maybe more interested in the technology, or something like that. They're more cautious. But women, they're more open, more fun-loving. They're more relaxed. And
Are those also women who travel alone mainly? Or are they women who have a partner and the partner says, "Hey, I'll give you this flight as a gift so you can experience something, and I'll take some photos from below"?
or what? Yeah, exactly. That's often the case. Sometimes it's single women who are just on vacation. There are two or three women who are always on vacation. Or sometimes it's a couple or a married couple where the woman just wants to fly. But the man isn't really up for it; it's enough for him if he can just come along and take a few photos at the landing field. If he can just sneak away from it, that's enough for him. But the women are more open there. I always say, a woman can lean on or trust a person more than a man can. Maybe it's the role of the woman, I don't know. But a woman can give away that trust more easily.
like a man can.
Well, you're a seasoned man yourself. Do you notice differences there too? You have different tandem pilots flying for you, or you see others and then you think, there are those who only weigh 70 kilos and are of course maybe 15 cm shorter than you. That a different chemistry automatically establishes between the woman and the pilot? That you simply say, a mass like that behind me, it really makes a difference.
It does make a bit of a difference when the pilot, let's say in my case, has more gray hair than normal and, let's say, a certain height and also a certain age. It's a difference whether a pilot is young, say, 20 years old, a smaller, scrawny guy. Yeah, not everyone dares to give him that trust. But if, say, a pilot comes along who simply has a certain size, stands there with a certain presence, like a rock in the surf, and can show corresponding professional experience. The whole thing with the calm voice
makes a big difference. It makes a huge difference.
So, to wrap things up, draw up your ideal vision of a good tandem pilot for me. What does he need physically? What does he need mentally to be perceived as a truly good tandem pilot?
As a really good tandem pilot, of course, he has to be skilled in terms of flying; he can't have any weak spots, whether with wind or thermals, during takeoff or anything else. The flying part itself must be second nature. And he also has to have a corresponding level of inhibition and be used to flying. So, I'm going to put it mildly, there can be none of that. He has to be properly hardened—as we say here in the region, he has to be "hardened."
So, that's what it is from a flying perspective...
Humanly speaking, he should actually be more of a refined type. Not the show-off kind, which is really bad for tandem flying if he starts making stupid comments or something. So, humanly, he has to be so proper, and punctual, and polite, and all that. So the human element is very important. And then he should be a people person. What's very important is that the moment a passenger approaches him, he knows, okay, I have to take this one this way. He should actually already know who he has to fly with or who he has to completely skip. He has to already know that decision by the time he's walking towards them, and at the latest after the first two sentences of talking to each other, he should actually know what he has to do.
So
a good pants salesman who looks at you and says, they have size 36, you have to know, okay, that's the one who wants to fly high Wing-Overs, and that's the one I really just give the glide path to.
Exactly. For example, he's more satisfied if I just fly straight down with him. No turns, nothing at all. And it's best if he lets go of the control lines and just hugs the entire flight, so he gets a sense of well-being. That's when he's not alone anymore.
How often do you have flights like that?
We have flights like that, I'd say, about a quarter of the time. Oh, it's
actually quite a lot. I would have estimated less, but a quarter is really, you're saying, actually just the glide path and...
I hold them constantly during the flight. One hand is always there, usually the left hand, resting over the shoulder, around to the other shoulder. Past the front of the neck, very loosely, onto the other shoulder, so he knows there's always someone there with him. And I talk to him constantly. And then he feels good about that.
And are they the most satisfied passengers in the end?
Yes, also. Among other things, among other things. Because if I didn't do that with them, if I didn't hold them during the flight and talk to them constantly, they'd get a bad feeling. A kind of fear, a sense of anxiety, would come up. They'd say, oh, I'm never doing that again, never again. But when they have a pilot who holds them, for example, where the arm goes over to the other shoulder, and then they realize, hey, there's someone there holding me, talking to me... it's often even the case that they say you can maybe even joke around a bit by the end.
Well, that is actually already quite a lot of personal closeness that happens in that moment. Are there also people where you notice, oh, this is the un... they don't like that, that you're being invasive now, or is it actually such a special situation in the air that everyone is happy that something like this happens?
That's really... I mean, on the ground you notice they don't actually want such direct contact, but while flying they're grateful if someone is there holding them. They're really very grateful for that and they allow the closeness, or rather they need the closeness, when you notice—or when I notice—oh dear, there's some cramping in there or whatever. You notice that immediately after the start, whether they're gripping somewhere or whatever. Then I'm there for them, so they should know, hey, you're not alone, but you have someone with you, you have someone looking out for you. Basically, they've also booked a person to accompany them during that time.
And then, of course, we do hold them and hug them. That's very important. And then, for example, the tension releases. If you do that—and it's also very important for a tandem pilot to notice, oh, he's gripping something—then I say, come on, open and close your hand. But I don't do that after five minutes; I do it immediately after takeoff if I notice, oh, he's gripping the harness non-stop. Then I say, come on, open and close your hand, let some blood in. Sometime, at the latest after three minutes, I have him to the point where he puts his hands on his thighs. And then he knows, now he's relaxed. Exactly. Then I say, come on, let's pump them so there are no blood clots or anything, otherwise you'll have a cramped hand somewhere later.
Then he starts pumping. Then I say, come on, move your hand away for a second. Or I take his hand. I take his hand and say, come on, give me your hand, hold my hand. And I say, come on, let's stretch out your hands, fly like a bird. Feel the wind in your hands.
Fly like a bird, of course, that also fits your name.
I just remembered, when you say "taking things into your own hands" and all that, I had an experience once. I heard from some of the chief physicians of
I often get people from psychosomatic clinics for rehabilitation. And I once had a person with me,
she told me that she was coming from a psychosomatic clinic and that she had already had five suicide attempts behind her. And in the front, they can look from the balcony directly onto the balcony, from the balcony directly onto the park. So, and she told me about the five suicide attempts while we were getting started. I thought, for God's sake! And she told me about every single suicide attempt, what she did there and what she did wrong, what didn't work. And she told me... There she
you just don't feel like flying anymore, right? I thought,
Oh man, she's taking it now that it's finally going to be one hundred percent. And I thought, oh, how do I do that with her while flying? And then I told her, while flying, look, we have to put our arms out and hold them out like a bird, and then also put some weight into it so we can fly turns. And that's how we did it. Because I wanted to see her hands. Because I didn't want her fiddling with something up front or opening anything. And I said, right after takeoff, hands out horizontally, then I could always see her hands from behind. And I flew along just like that and held her hands. And that way I knew she couldn't do anything. My blood ran cold, I thought, oh, she's not going to use tandem flying to finally make it happen.
Because she was also, how should I put it, not in a good place. After the flight, or during the flight, I noticed, hey, she doesn't want this. That was okay then. But we did the entire flight from top to bottom with her hands out until we landed. And that was a few years ago now, and I still have good contact with her. Gabi always gets in touch once or twice a year and says that it helped her so much in life, that she was built up, that you look beyond your own horizon, and that when you look beyond your own horizon, you get something positive back. That's the beauty of tandem flying. You can build people up, make them strong.
That means tandem flying can actually be a form of psychological help to get over certain things. Bernd, great, thanks so much for this wonderful conversation with you. You're very welcome. I wish you many more beautiful flights and all the best. Thank you very much.
That was Bernd Vogel in conversation with Lucian Haas. If you enjoyed this episode of Podz-Glidz or have something to criticize, please give some feedback via a comment on the Lu-Glidz blog or by email at lugliteskontakt at gmail.com. The podcast Podz-Glidz belongs to the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz and, like this one, is completely ad-free and independent. The only support I receive comes from my readers and listeners. If you also want to support the work of Lu-Glidz, you can find instructions on the website www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com on how to do so easily via PayPal or bank transfer. By the way, Lu-Glidz is spelled Lu-Glidz. Maybe I'll explain in a future episode of Podz-Glidz how this somewhat strange name came about in the first place.
First of all, I just want to say thank you for listening. My name is Lucian Haas. See you next time.