03. Hypnose - Katrin Ganter

Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.

Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.

Today with Katrin Ganter and Lucian Haas at the microphone.

Anyone who has ever had a rescue landing knows the feeling. On subsequent flights, you don't sit in your harness as relaxed anymore. You'd love to just keep flying coolly, and your mind tells you not to make such a fuss. But deep inside, other voices are speaking. The subconscious is throwing a wrench in the works. But it doesn't have to stay that way. One way to sort of retune your subconscious is hypnosis. How that works is what I'm discussing in this episode of Podz-Glidz with hypnosis therapist Katrin Ganter from Switzerland. Based on her findings with hypnosis, she offers special mental training for paragliding. Katrin is also a trained midwife. How she connects the experiences from this part of her life with her great passion, paragliding, she also tells me about in the following brief hour.

Katrin, you work in Switzerland as a mountain midwife, basically helping mountain farmers bring their children into the world. At the same time, you're a flight school leader, helping aspiring pilots get into the air. Is one and the other comparable in any way for you?

Yes, I think you can compare the two. I was a midwife for a long time before I got into aviation. And after a while, I noticed that my midwifery skills are absolutely in demand at the airfield. Especially for the students doing their first flights, right at the beginning. It's actually the same thing—what you need there, or what I feel the students need, is simply to stay calm and project calmness. To make sure you don't spread any unnecessary stress, so to speak. To keep the situation calm. To simply be present for the person who is about to take off. I just go through the important points again, like doing the safety check and the takeoff check together.

And then it's simply more about giving them that feeling: you can do this, you can manage this.

That means for the women who are giving birth now, you also have to give them that feeling, hey, you can do this. But they're doing it alone, and a pilot is basically the exact same thing.

Exactly, it's the same thing. I mean, the people are competent, no matter what. The women are competent at having children, and the pilots are competent at flying. Basically, they just need someone who believes in them in that moment.

Well, you had been a midwife for a long time before you started working as a launch leader at the flight school. Did you recognize from the beginning that you could take something from one job to the other, or is there something you'd say is a real specialty you bring with you?

No, it was actually a bit of a coincidence that I ended up in that role. It was originally because I did the training to become a tandem pilot and the flight instructor and I basically made a deal that I'd work off the support I needed for the tandem private license. And I just sort of slipped into it, suddenly found myself there, and over time I realized I enjoy it, it brings me joy. It was always a great time with the students. I really enjoyed being there for that moment when they take their first flights. There's just such excitement in the air and it's something amazing. I liked that, yeah.

You've been flying for a while now, and if I followed correctly, you started paragliding before you actually became a midwife. How did your flying journey begin?

So I actually started flying at the same time as my midwifery training. I started flying during my midwifery studies. And it was actually my husband who pointed out thermals, or rather, he had always wanted to fly—he always wanted to fly airplanes. And to be honest, it didn't mean anything to me. I always thought, that was his dream of flying. And then at some point he decided and said, yeah, with the airplane, I don't know if that's ever going to happen, but I can definitely learn paragliding. And paragliding didn't mean anything to me back then. I knew about hang gliding, I'd seen it as a kid, but I had zero connection to it. And when he did the course, I went to visit him and just saw what it meant, what was happening there.

I was on the ground and they were hovering above me, and it was a gorgeous day, completely still, calm air, everything was so peaceful, and then I thought, wow, what are they doing? And then that evening I basically said, hey, that looked amazing, I can really imagine that it's fun. And then he actually talked me into it a bit, and the flight instructor also said, you can just give it a try, why don't you try it? And then I said, alright, so if I can just try it from a small hill like that, then I'll do it. And then it happened, I signed up for a basic course, and from the very first takeoff it was clear, I want to do it again, exactly, yeah.

Where did you do the basic course?

In the Black Forest, with Walter Wagner at Skymaster. That

So, back then you lived in the Black Forest, and today you live in Switzerland. How did it happen that you moved to Switzerland with your husband?

Yeah, well, I had finished my midwifery training, and during that training, I also did my pilot's license. That was sort of a time out for me, doing something completely different. And then it just happened that I was basically done with my pilot's license and also finished with my training. And I definitely wanted to work full-time as a midwife for a year. And then the question was, where do we do that, where do I go? And for both of us, it was clear—my husband and I—if we want to fly and work with a child, then it just has to be easy. It has to be right on our doorstep, so that you don't have to drive for hours just to fly for a short bit, but so that it can happen as part of everyday life.

And yeah, so after a few detours, we ended up here, where we still are, in the Bernese Oberland. And it's actually a perfect place for flying.

Did you choose this place because you wanted to fly, or because you got a good position as a midwife? I mean, I have to say, my

The plan was completely different. I already knew how I wanted to work as a midwife. I wanted to work self-employed. So it was clear to me that I didn't want to go to a large house, but rather to a place where I could actually lead the births myself.

I knew that I also wanted to provide postpartum care, so to do a very holistic kind of support. And then it became clear to us that we wanted to fly. Right out of our front door. And my husband wanted to go skiing. And I actually wanted even more. So we just gathered everything we imagined we'd like to do and thought, oh, New Zealand would be great,

to make all of that happen. And so I applied to these agencies, these placement agencies. And one of these agencies kept asking me, why don't you want to go to Switzerland? Why don't you want to go to Switzerland? And I told him, well, because we want to go to New Zealand.

And at some point, I realized it wasn't all as simple as I thought. And she kept pushing me. So I said, yeah, just give me what you've got. I'll take a look at it now. And then I checked out three or four positions all over Switzerland, did a round in a few days, and ended up here in Zweisim in the end. And I arrived.

The paragliders landed next to the hospital, so next to my future workplace. The workplace was exactly as I had imagined it, in fact, I couldn't have imagined it any better. Then, for the first time in my life, I took a gondola up the mountain, also basically right outside the door. It was a five-minute walk from my work to the gondola. I stood up there and thought, okay, this isn't New Zealand, but somehow everything we need is here.

That's like love at first sight.

Yeah, it did. I mean, it just welcomed me so warmly here. This valley with everything. It just looked like it was saying, come here.

Exactly. What does flying mean to you? What is it that fascinates you so much about it?

So for one thing, it's an adventure. Something that's just right there at your doorstep.

Because I'm quite an adventurous person. And before I became a midwife and our son arrived, we traveled a lot. And I need that a bit. I mean, I just think I need it. I always need something different, for something new to happen.

Escape from everyday life too? Yes,

An actual escape. I wouldn't call it that. I feel like it's actually the foundation of my life. It's actually more like my everyday life. For me, everyday life is a bit of an adventure.

So flying is the ground for you. So the air is the ground. That's actually a nice reversal.

Yeah, or simply this way of living. The way of living where something unexpected can happen every day. Where something new can happen. That every day you just have an experience where you can say, that day was nice. That was a good day. So I try to make that happen in my life as often as possible. That

is basically a philosophy of life. And paragliding fits that perfectly, so to speak.

Definitely. Flying offers the possibility that, even if you only go for a short time, say just one hour, you're just there—for that hour, you're only there. I mean, you don't think about anything else. I think everyone feels that way. I don't think about work. I don't think about anything at all, I think. I just go flying and that's all I'm doing. It's totally present. And it's very relaxing for me. Precisely because your head, it just... it just switches off in that moment.

And that makes it, well, it makes it fun. It's a challenge. It's always different. And the second big, big, big reason for me to fly is certainly a very strong love for nature. So, that I feel like I'm right in the middle of it, rather than just watching it.

Exactly. Now, you don't just do paragliding for yourself, as in practicing it, but you've also integrated it into your profession or your job and into your life in other ways. We already mentioned earlier that you work as a launch leader. You work as a launch leader for a flight school in Switzerland. At the same time, however, you also offer things like special training. And you have a website called Werk Hypnose. And there, you find this interesting keyword, hypnosis, in connection with paragliding. How does that even fit together?

Hypnosis fits perfectly with paragliding,

Because, well, maybe I'll just briefly mention that the midwife profession has moved into the background for me by now. I don't do any more births, no obstetrics, just postpartum care at home. And instead, a few years ago—I think I started in 2011—I did the training to become a hypnotherapist as well. And I noticed what potential hypnosis has. And when it comes to flying, for me, the biggest challenge is—it's obviously the technique, learning how it works, how I handle the paraglider,

like, how do I turn, when I'm in the thermals and so on. That's one thing. But I feel like for me, the biggest challenge has always actually been the mental side. Like I said at the beginning, so to speak, having the nerve to fly alone at all, going flying or assessing the conditions, can I do it now, can I not, finding that trust. Or also in the air, if something happens that you maybe haven't experienced yet. Or you fly somewhere you haven't been before. It's somehow, I still find it, how should I put it, I still find it extremely impressive. Yeah, you're hyped up, you're totally alone somewhere, I don't know, 500 meters above some glaciers.

And that is...

Overwhelming in a certain way.

I feel like that's overwhelming, yeah. And that's what, for me, the head is really a huge, huge factor when flying. Yeah, and so that I can enjoy it.

Well, you'd think, when you imagine flying like that, you have to be completely alert and in control. Now, you see a keyword like hypnosis. At least at first glance, you'd say hypnosis and being alert aren't really the same thing. To what extent can hypnosis actually help me while flying?

Well, for one thing, we do a lot of things unconsciously when flying. I think everyone knows that. Everyone knows, for example, that they tell themselves—just as an example—today I'm turning until I hit the cloud, right up to the base. And then, before you know it, you've turned back and didn't fly all the way to the base. That means somehow, something in your skin, for one thing, decided before you could even think that maybe that shouldn't happen. And there we are already in contact with the unconscious. Because this decision, for example, not to do it, was made unconsciously, even though your conscious mind thought, "Yeah, today I'm doing that."

Today I'm really doing it. And unconsciously, you...

decided not to do it. Is the unconscious or the subconscious always stronger than the conscious mind then? So, do I always yield to my subconscious, which then unfortunately makes me slide down even though I actually want to fly high?

Yes, I can absolutely confirm that. So the unconscious is the boss in the ring. You could put it that way. But both, including conscious thinking,

both play an important role and, ideally, we work as a team between the unconscious and the conscious. And both have different tasks. You can think of conscious thinking as being there so that I can focus on one thing that I'm doing right now. It's a bit like the glider on which information appears, which I then read. The unconscious, on the other hand, is the computer, the server with a huge capacity that automatically and independently performs many forms of processes, but doesn't burden me with all the processes, but only gives me the important info.

So, but because the unconscious has this huge capacity and actually takes care of everything, you could say it's actually the boss. So if the unconscious doesn't want to, doesn't cooperate somewhere, or blocks something, then the conscious mind can think a hundred times, "I'm doing this, it's not going to work." On the other hand, it's also like this: if the conscious mind goes in one direction and the unconscious... well, you could say, for example, "I'm driving my head into a wall."

Exactly, it's always difficult. If the two don't work together, then it gets hard. If the two are in agreement, then you can actually achieve anything.

And what does hypnosis do in this case? I mean, how can it be helpful in bringing the subconscious and the conscious mind into harmony or something like that?

So for paragliding,

that's quite varied. Basically, you can use it for everything. On the one hand, you can use it when you have a specific goal to figure out how to best achieve that goal—what the best steps are that you can take to get there. On the other hand, of course, you can also use it when you're having difficulties, when there are blockages.

And those can be very different. So, a typical block that many paraglider pilots share is, for example, that they get a bit of stage fright at the start when others are watching. I hear that really often.

The classic launch stress. Yes,

the startup stress. Exactly, everyone is watching and I have to deliver a performance. That's one thing, for example. Or it's not really, how should I put it, it's just unpleasant when you have this startup stress, but it's not a huge block. It's not a massive blockage. Something else, of course, is if you had an accident, for example, or a rescue landing. Just an incident while flying where you say, wow, that was close, or I really put myself in a difficult situation, so that you can fly freely again afterwards. Exactly, without being triggered over and over again and, so to speak, falling back into the fear. Those are things you can do with hypnosis.

clear up pretty quickly, because in hypnosis—the special thing about hypnosis is that you have full access to your own subconscious. Normally, as the name suggests, it's unconscious. There's a boundary there. It's a bit difficult. What's going on there? To understand that, and hypnosis is actually a state in which we have a state of thinking, it's a way of thinking, in which I can think unconsciously and consciously at the same time, and the two can, so to speak, enter into communication with each other and see what's going on and what's best now and how I can resolve it?

If

For example, if I had a rescue descent and said, "Since then, I haven't dared to do it properly because as soon as it rattles a bit, I get nervous and just sit there stiff in my harness or something." I come to you now, or I would come to you, and say, "I'd like to be more relaxed again. How do I imagine that? What do you do with me to make that work?"

So, for most people, the idea of hypnosis is that I somehow almost put the other person to sleep and then suggest something to them with words that helps them. You don't do that? I don't do that. That's a classic, old form of hypnosis. But by now, hypnosis has evolved and there are much better methods. If you come to me for hypnosis, I simply show you how you can enter this trance state. A trance state simply means—it's this state of mind where the unconscious and conscious are active. So, you can imagine, for example, when you're dreaming at night, only your unconscious is active.

During the day, if you're doing something, I don't know, calculating something or writing something on the computer, then it might be just your conscious thinking, or I'll say it like this: the unconscious is always active, but it's leading. And trance is a state in which both are active at the same time and you have full access to your unconscious. And it's characterized by the fact that you simply go inward. You go into your own world like so, and external stimuli decrease. So that means if you're in a state of trance, you don't really perceive anymore that maybe the phone is ringing or what sounds are around you. You tune it out. And we actually know this state. It's innate to us.

It's

Is it something like daydreaming? Or how can you imagine it?

Exactly, daydreaming definitely counts too, and depending on it, you can also enter a trance state. So it's an innate state that we know. We use it often too. It's just that we normally don't call it hypnosis. That's just the word; I don't find it very helpful, not very fitting, but it's actually what we all know.

And how do I get my subconscious to show me why it's blocked at that point? Do I see images of it? Or how am I supposed to imagine that? I mean, how does that...

Unconscious, you've already mentioned the images; that's a bit of a specialty when working with the unconscious. That the unconscious has a different mother tongue than conscious thinking. Conscious thinking thinks in words and sentences. And the unconscious actually has images as its mother tongue. For some people, it's also smells or, for example, music. But for most people, it's images. And the unconscious understands words, but it actually prefers to express itself in images. And it also works in images. So that means if I'm having a conversation with the unconscious, it happens visually. Then, for example, the person can be able to observe themselves flying and see from the outside how they are sitting in the harness when they, for example, get into a situation where they are tense.

And then he can see, oh look, I'm sitting right at the front, I'm really tense, my face is completely pale, my lips are pressed together. He can observe that. It's like a movie you're watching from the outside. And the beauty of it is, with the help of the unconscious, you can then say, "Unconscious, just bring in the part that can help, for example." And then it can happen that a helper or a friend or whatever appears and corrects the situation. And it goes on like that until the person says, "Yes, now it looks comfortable, now it looks good, now it looks like I'd feel comfortable," then you go back into that movie yourself, so to speak, and experience it anew.

And the interesting thing about that is that it doesn't matter to us at all whether we experience something in hypnosis—so, if we fly in hypnosis and have changed that situation and feel comfortable and have done everything as we want it, adjusted the situation that way—or whether we experience it in real life. We don't give a damn. That means if I experience it in hypnosis, if I've experienced it that way in hypnosis, it has an impact and I go into the air afterwards and feel comfortable. This blockage is resolved.

It's basically overwritten with the new image, or how did I imagine that?

In a way, it's more than just being overwritten, because it actually changes in that moment.

So, with the help of the unconscious, we change the situation so that it's positive and that it, so to speak, becomes manageable—that it's no longer overwhelming, that it's simply a situation where I can say, I feel good. And this feeling remains; it's carried over into the conscious mind and it's then as if it had happened. Even though it didn't happen, the unconscious accepts it as if it had. And because of that, of course, it changes.

That happens during the hypnosis session itself. But it could also be that I'm in flight and notice, oh, I'm getting tense again. Are there also techniques where I can say, how can I basically call my helper for help quickly, so that it also works in flight, where I haven't quite played that out or reprogrammed it in some way during the hypnosis situation yet?

So there's definitely, as you said, this daydreaming, which is very helpful.

That I just think about, so to say, before I fly, what is it like for me in the air? What are the typical situations where I start to feel uneasy?

And I think about what would help me? What would serve me? How could I support myself? For example, I like to do a thought experiment: if I were my best friend, what would she advise me? So that I can simply find out what I actually need in that moment. And then I can think about what would be useful for me, what I actually need, what gives me security. And then I already have the idea of how I can prepare for this situation a bit, what I can change beforehand,

so that I have it, so that I have it available. Then, of course, you can daydream a bit and imagine how I would feel if I were comfortable? What thoughts would I have if I felt comfortable? Because very often, many fears in the air are actually triggered by judgments of the situation. So you judge the situation as dangerous or not okay, and by doing so, you sort of activate these really old, hard-wired flight programs, for example. And they are intense, of course—your heart races, we all know that, your mouth goes dry, your hands start to sweat, your brain goes completely blank because all the blood, so to speak, goes to the extremities so that I can run.

And if I let it get that far, I just can't think. In that situation, I can't creatively find a solution. That's why it's important that I find it beforehand and think about what it should be like, what it should look like, and take a certain plan with me into the air. And then, for example, I can remember a good thought I can have in the air, a thought that thermals support. For example, everyone knows that "altitude is safety," that's such a typical phrase. It's a bit general, how should I put it, everyone knows it, but you can find your own sentences that really grab you. And the more my thought grabs me and touches me emotionally, the more effective it will be.

I once had a conversation or an interview with Bernie Pessel, a major Austrian cross-country pilot, and I asked him about this too, because he often still flies in pretty heavy conditions where others would say, "I'd rather land." How does he deal with that? And then he said, "Well, if it gets really heavy, I just start cheering and I simply enjoy it." Is that exactly how he handles those kinds of situations?

That is absolutely a tactic you can use. The important thing is simply to have something ready that you can use, so you're not trying to figure out what to do in the moment, because there's no capacity left in your brain. Your brain is empty. Blood is in your limbs for the flight response. I can think about that. That means I have to know beforehand. What do I want to do? What do I want to think? And many people just have thoughts,

that aren't helpful. They think, oh my god, hold my carabiners, for example. Or oh my god, that cloud looks so gray. Those aren't useful thoughts; they just increase my anxiety and don't change the situation at all. That means I think about beforehand which thought will help me.

And there, you can really be creative. Just let your creativity run a bit. For example, I took this thought from someone else: if it's shaking a lot right now or something, I tell myself that in a minute it'll probably be fine again.

Then I know I just have to hold on for one minute and then it'll probably be nice again.

And then I tell myself this sentence. I think to myself, in a minute it'll probably be nice again. And it motivates me to just wait a bit, not to fly off right away, but to stay inside. And often it really is like that, that after a minute it's already nice again.

Exactly. That's also a bit like autosuggestion, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, you could say that.

If we step away from hypnosis as a topic for a moment. You also offer very classic mental training, where it's not specifically about hypnosis. And among other things, I saw, for SIV training. What do you do with the pilots there? How do you complement SIV training with your mental training?

Yes, well, everything I teach in mental training comes, first and foremost, from my knowledge of hypnosis. And also from my knowledge as a midwife. So, in these two professions, I've basically gained, how shall I put it, a huge wealth of experience in how we tick in extreme situations. A birth is an extreme situation, too. And I've been able to spend a lot of time—hours at a time—during a birth, you're in the trenches for hours, you're with a woman for hours, for nights on end, as she goes through this process. And you learn a lot about what helps in such a moment and what doesn't. So that's it, and you can also try it out; if you have something that doesn't help, it won't be accepted.

So I won't be able to support the woman there; on the contrary, I might even make the situation worse. But if I can develop a good intuition for the moment and what it needs right now, then it becomes easier. And over time, I was able to recognize that there are certain underlying structures. Let me just say,

...that structure the process. That's something you can't see, but you can recognize if you experience it often. The second thing is that hypnosis, of course, gave me a lot of knowledge about how we tick, how the unconscious thinks, what's important to the unconscious so that it works together with conscious thinking, and what prerequisites it needs. And from all of that, I basically created this mental coaching. And it just works like this: before you practice, you sit down together for an hour every day and I basically convey this knowledge. So, this mental coaching is a lot of knowledge transfer.

How do we even tick? What's going on in an extreme situation like that? What happens there? What happens in that moment? And what helps? And what doesn't help at all? That I already have an idea of how I can approach it. And we actually always know very precisely what is good for us. And the more I can understand the situation and understand what's going on inside me, the better I can decide what's good for me in that moment.

What are the typical situations you experience again and again, specifically during SIV training, where the pilots say, "I need some help here"? I mean, what are the main questions that come up?

Yeah, it's uncharted territory for everyone, of course. So we deal a lot with that "uncharted territory" instinct, so to speak.

That's for everyone. And I really believe that's true without exception. One person might be able to handle it better, while another gets a bit more worked up. But basically, it's the same for everyone. I don't know anyone who goes into an SIV training completely calm and flies their first full stall totally relaxed. Everyone is nervous and everyone is thinking about it, going through the maneuver again, and so on. And yeah, it's just, how do I get through that in a good way, without putting myself in a situation, so to speak, in a red zone? That's actually the most important thing. How can I do something new when I don't know exactly yet? I just can't know everything exactly.

I can prepare, I can go through it theoretically, but then I have to do it. And especially a stall, I have to see it through. I can't stop in the middle; I either do it or I don't.

Is there something like a simple technique, like how I can basically open up my subconscious so that it says, "Wonderful, something really new is happening now, it might get me excited or something, but I'll just accept it now or faster"? Is there a basic technique for how to manage that?

So basically, for me, the simplest way is of course to do it with hypnosis. You can also do that yourself. I personally always ask for permission,

whether I simply have permission to do that, whether I have the full support of my subconscious. If it says, yes, I fully support you, then I know I have it. How does it tell me?

the subconscious, right?

Well, for me it's very simple, and for anyone who, say, comes to me for hypnosis, I teach them that. There are totally simple techniques, like how you can, for example, establish a sign language with the unconscious.

Do I have to make a sign for the subconscious, or does the subconscious give me a sign back and I just have to talk to it with words?

Yes, we do that, we do that, we just do that. At some point you say to the unconscious, for example, "Unconscious, you're dealing with this," and say, "If you agree, then move, for example, let the right index finger go up." That's a very small movement, no one will notice it, no one will see it. And then you can go inward for a moment, you can go into a very short trance, say, "Unconscious, I want to know something, I want to ask you something quickly. Do you agree with that, yes or no?" And if it says yes, you should lift the index finger. And then your unconscious can control your index finger. It can, so to speak, briefly control the muscles and take over. And then I have my sign. But it only works if I agree to it, if I've agreed to it.

Of course, if I get involved and say, "Yeah, I don't believe that anyway," then it won't work either. It then becomes difficult to find good communication.

So I really have to learn or practice, train, to basically strike deals with my conscious and subconscious mind.

Yes. You just have to get in touch. And now, in an SIV training, in mental training, I don't use hypnosis in that sense. But I teach people how they can communicate with the unconscious and how they can also notice if the communication is working. So, exactly, how they can build this good connection. And we all have that. So, for example, everyone knows intuition. That's an expression everyone knows. And everyone has experienced it at some point. Intuition is actually nothing other than a communication with the unconscious. It gives me a piece of information and says, "Pay attention to that."

That's something else, talking about gut feeling or something like that. Is that the same thing?

Yes, absolutely. And it's important not to disregard that. That you just also listen to it, that you're attentive to your gut feeling and so the right... It's really not that easy. It's really a very complex... These are complex processes and everyone knows that too, finding this way, this path, especially with an SIV training, between excitement and over-excitement, which then blocks you again, or that you make it too easy for yourself by saying, yeah, yeah, everything's easy, and then suddenly you're in a real mess and think to yourself, oops, it wasn't that easy after all.

It's just a path that you can only walk step by step, and I think that's where the secret lies—for example, in mental coaching, we really work on taking it step by step. And always only looking at the step we're taking right now, so that your capacity is fully there.

Can the subconscious also react defensively if you don't listen to it?

So it's not offended. It's not trying to punish you or anything like that. Actually, the unconscious is completely on your side. You could put it that way. It's actually the best friend you can have. It would never react by getting offended and saying, "Alright, now I'm going to show you." But it's just possible that it has reasons—good reasons—for its actions, and you might just not be consciously aware of those reasons at that moment. It could also be that something has become automated. Just a disadvantageous way of doing things that just keeps repeating itself, but doesn't lead to success. If that...

We think that because I feel bad—meaning, if I have a pattern that doesn't actually get me anywhere and keeps failing over and over—then I don't feel good. And then I think to myself, oh, the unconscious is trying to punish me because it's making me feel bad. But actually, it's doing me a favor by showing me that there's something there.

Take a look and see if it's still relevant, if you still want to keep going like that. So, it's not actually a punishment; it's a signal that sort of places a marker and says, "Here's something that could be more optimal, that could run better." And whenever the unconscious puts us in a situation like that at all, it's also a sign that we have the resources to change it and the possibilities.

People who, for example, have a really bad trauma and don't have the resources, often aren't aware of anything at all. They don't notice it at all; they completely forget those things. So, whenever the unconscious gives me a sign—for example, that I don't feel good about something—it's the same thing as me saying, look into that, we don't actually need that anymore, it's no longer relevant, try something new.

Speaking of developing yourself and mental training, besides SIV training, you've also worked as a mental coach during a ground handling training. That was in Portugal and it was a course that was only advertised for women. What was your experience like there?

Yes, well, I have to say, this training with the women was one of the best work weeks of my life. It was gigantic. It was just pure joy because, in that case, I could really witness such development within a short period of time because of how those components came together. Ground handling is simply brilliant for improving your technique. There's really almost nothing better.

It takes place on the ground, so you have a certain amount of... well, you have more security. So if I take the glider into the flyback on the ground, for example, it's different than flying a full stall in the air. And

in combination, so to speak, with these daily mental preparations: what is my goal? Where do I want to go? How am I going to do it step by step? What is actually coming up now? What are my difficulties along the way? What are my resources? How do I want to use them?

You could just see it, starting from the second or third day, how the switch flipped. And for me, it was really

just something very touching every time, to see how the women just blossomed. They often turned around 180 degrees, they were just having fun, they were laughing, they dared to do things, they didn't want to stop at all. I mean, they didn't want to eat, they just wanted to fly and do something with this glider. And that is an experience, it was unique, yes. Now

it was just women. Do you think this experience could be the same with men? Or are women different in some way in this regard? Do they handle such developments differently? Maybe also differently with fears or whatever?

What I can see with women is that when they are among themselves, they come out of their shells more. That they dare more, in the sense of stepping forward more.

And what I also think, yeah,

It's a bit of a theory, I don't know, I can only perceive it as the fact that it does women good to have female role models too. To see another woman doing what they might not be able to do yet, who is, so to speak, showing them the way. Because we aren't necessarily... well, in this sport, we're surrounded by a lot of men. So maybe in the training there are still more women,

but the majority are men. So here, I've been almost the only one for years. Many days, I'm the only woman at the launch site.

And that means my environment is always men, and I look at them, and when I look at them, I don't necessarily identify with them. Because they're men, they're not like me. But if I see a woman who might be small and delicate and has kids and who, I don't know, flies great, has her glider perfectly under control, makes great starts, whatever, then I think to myself, aha, so if she can do that, maybe I can too. And I think that's a big aspect of why the women push each other so much. Because for them too, it's new to see other women doing something.

And that's inspiring. Aha, then I can do something too. And then there's this effect, this dynamic, where they push each other extremely hard. Mhm.

So, if you take your experience into account, it would actually make sense for women to go flying with other women much more often and really form women's clubs.

and so on? Yes, I'd say yes. I'd say. Of course, it would be nice eventually, how shall I put it, I think it's in my imagination, or I would naturally wish, that men and women fly together and have the same fun as men with each other or women with each other. But in reality, I can also see that. I can see it with the men, that they enjoy flying with each other. So with their buddies and being among themselves. And I see the same thing with the women, that they just come out of their shells more when they are among themselves. And yes, and I believe this searching for role models, that it's good for a woman to have a female role model.

Someone where you can say, "Actually, she's just like me and she can do it too." And then I find ways to be able to do it as well. If I see a mother who managed to keep flying with children, I think to myself, "Hmm, how did she do that?" Then the conversation happens, and it becomes possible for me too. But if I only see women who stop flying when the kids come, I don't get any inspiration on how that could work.

But I think for many people, it's just easier if you get a bit of a push from the outside and don't have to pioneer and invent everything yourself.

Well, we were just talking about start-up stress. You're saying now that women, when they're around a lot of men, don't see them as role models and maybe feel more observed by the men or whatever. Are there typical fears where you see a specific fear that occurs more often in women, and a different fear that's more common in men before the pilots?

I don't think so, no. I just think the way they deal with it is different. But I believe the fears are the same, yes.

In what form?

Yeah, so that might be portrayed a bit clichéd now, I mean it's always individual, but with women, for example, I can observe a lot that they tend to underestimate their abilities. Like they don't trust themselves enough, they hold back even more and think, I can't do this, and yeah,

...holding back, so to speak. And with men, you can perhaps even observe the opposite—that they might feel inside that they can really do it, but they play it off with, yeah, sure, I can do it. It's easy. And you can see it then; they might do it anyway, they go for it, but you watch the start and you see, well, there was a certain nervousness there. You can see it in the movements, that they're not as smooth as when you're calm.

Do men then perhaps act more through their subconscious? Do they not listen to the signals as much? That

I don't know. I don't think so. It's really a different approach and it's different problems, let's just say. And I also think a large part is simply rooted in our upbringing. I don't even think it's typically masculine or typically feminine, but rather that it's rooted in how we are simply used to being a man or a woman in society. And that's how it manifests in how we handle it and how we express it. But I think basically, if you break it down like that, it's actually similar for men and women. It's just that the approach is different.

You have a website, www.berghypnose.ch. On it, you describe a lot of this mental training and hypnosis and other things. Two terms have kept coming up for me. They appear in many of your texts. One is attention and the other is mindfulness. What do these mean to you and for flying?

Yes,

Attention is, I believe, everything in flying. So the more I put myself in a position to be attentive, the more I can perceive what is needed right now and simply react well. And that's why, for me, attention is actually the be-all and end-all. The more attentive I can be to what's happening outside—for example, regarding the weather—to what's happening in the glider, and to what's happening inside me, the more I pick up on it and the better I can adjust to it.

The second term was mindfulness. How does that differ from attention, and what is special about it?

That's a good question. So, if I were to answer that spontaneously right now, I'd say that for me, being mindful is

is perhaps the way I handle my attention. So, being attentive means I perceive something, and when I'm mindful,

then I pay attention to myself,

...how I deal with the things I perceive. So, if I notice, for example, that I'm feeling uncomfortable or whatever, I can say to myself, "Are you being stupid again? Don't be such a drama queen."

...or I can be mindful—well, for me, being mindful would be simply being kind to myself and saying, "Aha, you're worrying again, but I think everything is okay, just be brave, it'll be beautiful again in a minute." So I think it's actually a similar concept; maybe you could say that mindfulness also points a bit toward the way in which I'm always mindful of myself and also of what I encounter while flying, like the conditions.

Well, you recently got your tandem license, as you mentioned earlier. What does the topic of mindfulness mean for you as a tandem pilot?

Well, I have to say, it still has to find its place. Right now, I'm still a beginner—a beginner tandem pilot. When I fly with friends, it's already all there; I can fly very mindfully then. But when I fly with passengers, with strangers, that's still relatively new for me, and I notice, for example, that my capacity is still a bit occupied by the procedures themselves. There isn't much routine yet that I can call upon that just runs automatically. So, I still have difficulties with my camera—how do I pull the stick out, how do I put it away afterwards, I don't know. I'm just still so preoccupied with the details.

that I just don't have the mindfulness there yet, the way I'd like to have it. But I know that in that moment, there's no other way, because that's just the learning process.

that I have to do right now. On the other hand, it's also mindful to notice that and to say, okay, I'm at this point; I'm not an experienced commercial pilot yet, I'm brand new, and I need a bit more time for everything. The procedures take a lot more energy because they aren't really routine yet. I get tired much earlier than, say, a pilot who has been flying for a long time. So after three flights, I'm actually pretty done. I'm tired.

Actually, I'm glad if there isn't a fourth flight. That

That means, with attention and mindfulness, you realize, "Those were three flights, I can't do any more," and I just fundamentally won't do a fourth one anymore.

Yeah, at the moment it's not even like I'm booked out all day. I'm noticing that, well, the way I imagine it—the tandem pilot I'd like to be—I actually want to have time for the person I'm flying with. To really be able to focus on who they are, how we can make it a great experience. And now I'm noticing that, sometimes I can do that, but sometimes I'm just busy, I'm tied up, my capacity is taken up with, like, camera out, camera in, turning the camera on, yeah,

Exactly. What does your future flying career look like, what plans do you have for that?

Yeah, I'm not really a planner. I'm not really a planner. It always drives you somewhere. Yeah, it's like that, in any case, I hope that flying continues to take up a big place in my life. That I just keep doing it for a long time, that I can keep going with it, that it's part of it.

Could you imagine getting by in life without flying?

As long as I can kite?

Yes, I've asked myself that question quite a few times. I think it's possible. I mean, flying isn't something for me where I'd say I can't live without it. But I'd find it very sad. I find it very sad, yeah.

If you had to summarize it in one point, what would you miss the most?

So if I couldn't fly, I'd miss those moments the most, where you're right in the thick of it rather than just watching. Right in the middle of nature. Where you look around and think, wow, this is amazing. It's amazing how I live, where I live. This world is just simply brilliant. It's so beautiful. I don't want to be anywhere else.

Okay, Katrin. Thanks for this great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I hope the podcast listeners do too. I wish you many more wonderful flights and many more moments of being right in the middle of it all. All the best for the future.

Thank you for the invitation. It was a pleasure.

That was Katrin Ganter in conversation with Lucian Haas. If you're interested in the topic of hypnosis and paragliding, I recommend taking a look at Katrin's website. You can find it at www.berghypnose.ch www.berghypnose.ch

www.berghypnose.ch www.berghypnose.ch As always, I'd like to mention that I welcome both positive and critical feedback. You can find me via a comment on the blog or by email at lugleitskontakt at gmail.com www.lugleitskontakt at gmail.com www.lugleitskontakt at gmail.com. I do this completely independently and am not funded by advertising. However, I do rely on voluntary support from my readers and listeners. If you enjoyed this podcast or if you also regularly read Lu-Glidz, you can support my work as well. You can find instructions on the Lu-Glidz website on how to easily do this via PayPal or bank transfer. The address is www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com.

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