3. Hypnose - Katrin Ganter

Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.

Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.

Today with Katrin Ganter and Lucian Haas at the microphone.

Anyone who has ever had a rescue landing knows the feeling. You don't sit as relaxed in the harness during the following flights. You'd love to just keep flying cool as possible, and your mind tells you not to make such a big deal out of it. But deep down, other voices are speaking. The subconscious is throwing a wrench in the works. But it doesn't have to stay that way. One way to sort of retune your subconscious is hypnosis.

In this episode of Podz-Glidz, I'm talking to hypnosis therapist Katrin Ganter from Switzerland about how that works. Based on her findings with hypnosis, she offers special mental training for paragliding. Katrin is also a trained midwife. In the next hour, she also tells me how she connects the experiences from this part of her life with her great passion, paragliding.

Katrin, you work in Switzerland as a mountain midwife, basically helping mountain farmers bring their children into the world. At the same time, you're a flight school leader, helping aspiring pilots get into the air. Is one and the other comparable in any way for you?

Yes, I think you can compare the two. I was a midwife for a long time before I got into aviation. And after a while, I noticed that my midwifery skills are absolutely in demand at the airfield. Especially for the students who are doing their first flights, right at the beginning. It's actually the same thing you need there, or at least what I feel the students need. What we need is simply to stay calm, to radiate calmness, to make sure you don't spread any unnecessary stress, so to speak, to keep the situation calm, to just be present for the person who is about to take off. I just go through the important points again, we do the safety check and the start check together, and then it's more about giving them the feeling that you can do this, that you can manage it.

That

means that for the women who are giving birth now, you also have to give them that feeling, hey, you can do this, but they're doing it on their own, and now a pilot is basically exactly the same.

Exactly, it's the same thing. I mean, the people are competent, the women are competent at having children, and the pilots are competent at flying. Actually, they just need someone who believes in them in that moment. Now...

You were a midwife for a long time before you started working as a launch leader at the flight school. Did you realize from the beginning that you could take something from one job to the other? And where do you really say, hey, that's maybe a unique trait you have?

No, it was actually a bit of a coincidence that I ended up starting there. It was originally because I did the training to become a tandem pilot, and the flight instructor and I basically made a deal that I'd work off the support I needed for the tandem brevet. And I just sort of slipped into it, suddenly found myself there, and over time I realized I enjoyed it, it gave me joy. It was always a great time with the students. I really loved being able to be there for that moment when they do their first flight; there's just such excitement in the air, and it's something so beautiful, yeah, I liked that.

You've been flying for a while now, and if I followed correctly, you started paragliding before you actually became a midwife. How did your flying journey begin?

Actually, I started flying at the same time as my midwifery training, so I started flying during my midwifery apprenticeship, and it was actually my husband who pointed out the thermals, or rather, he always wanted to fly—he always wanted to fly airplanes. And honestly, it didn't mean anything to me. I always thought, that was his dream of aviation. And then at some point he decided and said, yeah, with the airplane, I don't know if that's ever going to happen, but I can definitely learn paragliding. And paragliding didn't mean anything to me at all back then. I knew about hang gliding, I'd seen that as a kid, but I had zero connection to it. And when he did the course, I went to visit him and just saw what it meant, what was happening there.

I was on the ground and they were hovering above me, and it was a mega beautiful day, completely still, calm air, everything was so peaceful. And then I thought, yeah, wow, what are they doing there? And then I basically said in the evening, hey, that looked mega beautiful. So I could really, I can imagine that it's fun. And then he actually persuaded me a bit. The flight instructor also said, you can just give it a try, why don't you try it? And then I said, yeah good, so if I can just try it from some small hill, then I'll do it. And then it happened, I just signed up for a basic course.

And from the very first takeoff, it was clear: I want to do it again. Exactly, yeah.

Where did you do the basic course?

In the Black Forest with Walter Wagner, at Skymaster.

So, back then you lived in the Black Forest, but today you live in Switzerland. How did it happen that you moved to Switzerland with your husband?

Yeah, well, I had finished my midwife training, and during that training, I also got my pilot's license. That was sort of like a time out for me, doing something completely different. And then it just happened that I was basically done with the pilot's license and also finished with my training. And I definitely wanted to work full-time as a midwife for a year. And then the question was, where do we do that, where do I go? And for both of us, it was clear—my husband and I—if we want to fly and work with a child, then it just has to be easy. It has to be right on our doorstep, so that you don't have to drive for hours just to fly for a short bit, but so that it can happen as part of everyday life.

And yeah, so after a few detours, we ended up here, where we still are today, in the Bernese Oberland. It's actually a perfect place for flying.

Did you choose the location because you wanted to fly, or because you got a good position as a midwife there? I mean, I have to say, my

The plan was completely different. I already knew how I wanted to work as a midwife. I wanted to work self-employed. So it was clear to me that I didn't want to go to a large house, but rather to a place where I could actually lead the births myself.

I knew that I also wanted to provide postpartum care, so to do a holistic kind of support. And then it was clear to us that we wanted to fly right outside our front door, and my husband wanted to go skiing, and I actually wanted even more. So we just gathered everything we imagined and thought, oh, New Zealand would be great to make all of that happen. And so I applied to these agencies, like placement agencies. And one of these agencies kept asking me, why don't you want to go to Switzerland? Why don't you want to go to Switzerland? And I told him, yeah, because we want to go to New Zealand.

But at some point I realized it wasn't all as easy as I'd thought and she kept pushing me. I said, "Yeah, just give me what you've got, I'll take a look at it now." And then I checked out three or four places all over Switzerland, did a tour in a few days, and ended up here in Zweisim. I arrived and the paragliders landed next to the hospital—so next to my future workplace. The job was exactly as I'd imagined it, as I couldn't have imagined it any better. Then, for the first time in my life, I took a gondola up the mountain, also pretty much right outside the door; it was five minutes on foot from my work to the gondola. I stood up there and thought, "Okay, this isn't New Zealand, but somehow everything we need is here."

That's like love at first sight.

Yeah, it did. I mean, it just welcomed me so warmly here. This valley with everything just looked like it was saying, come here.

What does flying mean to you? What is it that fascinates you so much about it?

So for one thing, it's just an adventure that's right on your doorstep.

Because I'm quite an adventurous person. And before I became a midwife and our son arrived, we traveled a lot, and I need that a bit. I think I just need it. I always need something different, for something new to happen.

Is it an escape from everyday life too? Yes,

I wouldn't call it an escape. I'd rather say it's actually the foundation of my life. It's actually more like my everyday life. For me, everyday life is actually a bit of an adventure.

So flying is the ground for you, meaning the air is the ground. That's actually a nice reversal. Yes,

or simply this way of living where something unexpected can happen every day, something new can happen, where every day is just an experience where you can say, that day was nice, that was a good day. So I try to make that happen in my life as often as possible. That

it's basically a philosophy of life, and paragliding fits that perfectly, so to speak. So to speak.

Definitely. Flying offers the possibility that, even if you only go for a short time, say just one hour, for that hour, you're just there. I mean, you don't think about anything else. I think everyone feels that way. I don't think about work, I don't think about anything at all, I think. I just go flying and that's all I'm doing. It's totally present and it's very relaxing for me, precisely because your head, it just... it switches off in that moment, and it's fun, it's a challenge, it's always different, and the second big, big, big reason for me to fly is certainly such a strong love for nature.

So that I feel like I'm right in the middle of it instead of just watching from the sidelines,

Exactly. Now, you don't just do paragliding for yourself as a practice, but you've also integrated it into your profession or your job in other ways, and integrated it into your life in other ways as well. We already mentioned earlier that you work as a launch leader for a flight school. But at the same time, in Switzerland, you also offer something like special training. And you have a website called Werk Hypnose. And there, you find this interesting keyword, hypnosis, in connection with paragliding. How does that even fit together?

Hypnosis fits perfectly with paragliding because—well, maybe I'll briefly explain—the midwife profession has moved into the background for me by now. So, I don't do any more births, no more obstetrics, just postpartum care at home. And instead, a few years ago, I think in 2011, I started doing the training to become a hypnosis therapist as well. And I noticed what potential hypnosis offers. And when flying, for me, the biggest challenge is—it's obviously the technique, learning how it works, how I handle the paraglider, how I turn out when I'm in the thermals, and so on.

That's one thing, but I feel like for me, the biggest challenge has always actually been the mental side. Like I said at the beginning, basically having the courage to go flying alone at all, or assessing the conditions—can I do this now, can I not? Finding that trust, or also in the air, if something happens that you maybe haven't experienced before, or you're flying somewhere you haven't been. You're somehow, I still find it, how should I put it, I still find it extremely impressive. Yes, you're up there, you're totally alone somewhere, I don't know, 500 meters above some glaciers, and that is...

Overwhelming in some ways? I

I feel like that's overwhelming, yeah. And that's what, for me, the head is really a huge, huge factor when flying, yeah. And so that I can enjoy it.

Well, people say, you know, when you imagine flying like this, you have to be completely alert and in control. Now, you see a keyword like hypnosis. At least at first glance, you'd say hypnosis and being alert aren't really the same thing. To what extent can hypnosis actually help me while flying?

Well, for one thing, we do a lot of things unconsciously when we fly. I think everyone knows that. Everyone knows, for example, that they tell themselves—just as an example—"Today, I'm going to turn until I hit the cloud, all the way to the base." And then, before you know it, you've turned away and haven't flown all the way to the base. That means something in you decided that before you could even think that maybe it shouldn't be that way. And there we are already in contact with the unconscious, because that decision, for example, not to do it, was made unconsciously, even though your conscious mind thought, "Yes, today I'm doing that, today I'm really doing it."

And unconsciously, you have

decided not to do it. Is the unconscious or the subconscious always stronger than the conscious mind then? So, do I always yield to my subconscious, which then unfortunately makes me slide down even though I actually want to fly high?

Yes, I can absolutely confirm that. So the unconscious is the boss in the ring, you could put it that way. But both—meaning conscious thinking as well—both have an important role, and ideally, it's a team effort between the unconscious and the conscious. And both have different tasks. So you can imagine conscious thinking is actually there so that I can focus on one thing that I'm doing right now. That's a bit like the glider on which information appears, which I then read. The unconscious, on the other hand, is the computer, the server with a huge capacity that automatically and independently performs many processes,

doesn't burden me with every single process, but only feeds me the important information.

But because the unconscious has this huge capacity and actually takes care of everything, you could say it's the boss. So if the unconscious doesn't want to, doesn't cooperate somewhere, or blocks something, then the conscious mind can think a hundred times, "I'm doing this, it's not going to work." Conversely, it's also like this: if the conscious mind goes in one direction and the unconscious... then you'd say, for example, "I'm driving my head into the wall."

It's always difficult when the two don't work together; then it gets hard. But when the two are in agreement, you can actually achieve anything.

And what does hypnosis do in that situation? I mean, how can it be helpful in bringing the subconscious and the conscious mind into harmony, or something like that? So...

for paragliders, that's quite varied. Basically, you can use it for anything. So, on one hand, you can use it when you have a specific goal to figure out how to best achieve that goal, what the best steps are that you can take to get there. On the other hand, of course, you can also use it when you're having difficulties, when there are blockages. And those can be very different. So a typical blockage that very many paragliders share is, for example, that they have a bit of stage fright at the start when others are watching. I hear that really often.

The classic launch stress. Yes,

the stress of starting. Exactly, everyone is watching and I have to deliver a performance. That's one thing, for example. It's just unpleasant when you have this starting stress, but it's not a huge, huge block. Something else, of course, is if you had an accident, for example, or a rescue, just an incident while flying where you say, I felt that was close or I really put myself in a difficult situation, so that you can fly freely again afterwards without being triggered over and over and, so to speak, falling back into the fear. Those are things you can handle pretty quickly with hypnosis.

clear up, because in hypnosis—the special thing about hypnosis is that you have full access to your own subconscious. Normally, as I already mentioned, it's unconscious; there's a boundary there, it's a bit difficult to understand what's going on, and hypnosis is actually a state, a state of mind, a way of thinking in which I can think unconsciously and consciously at the same time, and the two can so to speak communicate with each other and see what's going on and what's best now. And how do I clear that up?

If I had, for example, a rescue descent and said, "Since then, I haven't dared to do it properly because as soon as it rattles a bit, I get nervous and basically sit stiff in my harness or something." I come to you now or would come to you and say, "I'd like to become more relaxed again. How do I imagine that? What do you do with me to make that work?"

So, my job is actually—for most people, this idea of hypnosis is that I somehow almost put the other person to sleep and then suggest something to them with words that helps them. You don't do that? I don't do that. That's a classic old form of hypnosis, but hypnosis has evolved since then and there are much better methods. If you come to me for hypnosis, I simply show you how you can enter this trance state. A trance state simply means—it's this state of mind where the unconscious and conscious are active. So you can imagine, for example, when you're dreaming at night, only your unconscious is active.

During the day, if you're, I don't know, doing some math or writing something on the computer, then it might be just your conscious thinking, or I'll say it like this: the unconscious is always active, but it's leading. And trance is a state in which both are active at the same time and you have full access to your unconscious. And it's characterized by the fact that you simply go inward. You go into your own world like so, and external stimuli decrease. So that means when you're in a trance state, you don't really perceive anymore that maybe the phone is ringing or what noises are around you; you tune it out. And we actually know this state, it's innate to us.

Is that something like daydreaming, or how can you imagine it?

Exactly, daydreaming definitely works too, and depending on it, you can also enter a trance state. So it's an innate state that we know and use often, we just don't usually call it hypnosis. That's just the word; I don't find it very helpful, not very fitting, but it's actually what we all know.

And how do I get my subconscious to show me why it's blocked at that point? Do I see images of it, or how am I supposed to imagine that? I mean, how does that...

Unconscious, you've already mentioned the images; that's a bit of a specialty when you work with the unconscious—that the unconscious has a different mother tongue than conscious thinking. Conscious thinking thinks in words and sentences, but the unconscious actually has images as its mother tongue. For some people, it's also smells or, for example, music, but for most people, it's images. And while the unconscious does understand words, it actually prefers to express itself in images. It also works in images. So, that means if I'm having a conversation with the unconscious, it happens visually. For example, the person might be able to observe themselves as they flinch and see from the outside how they're sitting in the harness when they get into a situation where they're tense.

And then he can see, oh look, I'm sitting right at the front, I'm really tense, my face is all pale, my lips are pressed together. He can observe that. It's like a movie you're watching from the outside. And the beauty of it is, with the help of the unconscious, you can then say, "Unconscious, just bring in the part that can help, for example." And then it can happen that a helper or a friend or whatever appears and corrects the situation. And it goes on like that until the person says, "Yes, now it looks comfortable, now it looks good, it looks like I'd feel comfortable." Then you go back into this movie yourself, so to speak, and experience it anew.

And the interesting thing about that is that it's completely irrelevant to us whether we experience something in hypnosis—so, if we fly in hypnosis and have changed that situation and feel comfortable and have done everything the way it's better for us, having adjusted the situation that way—or whether we experience it in real life. We don't give a damn. That means if I've experienced that in hypnosis, it has an influence and I go into the air afterwards and feel comfortable. This blockage is resolved.

It's basically overwritten with the new image, or how did I imagine that? On

It's more like being overwritten, but actually it's more than just overwriting, because it's being changed in that very moment. So, with the help of the unconscious, we change the situation so that it becomes positive and, so to speak, manageable—that it's no longer overwhelming, that it's simply a situation where I can say, I feel good there. Good. And that feeling stays. It's carried over into the normal consciousness and it's then as if it had happened. Even though it didn't happen, it's accepted by the unconscious as if it had. And because of that, it naturally changes. That

...happens during the hypnosis session itself. But it could also be that I'm on the flight and notice I'm getting tense again. Are there also techniques where I can say, how can I quickly call my helper for help now, so that it also works during the flight, where I haven't quite played it out or reprogrammed it in a certain way during the hypnosis session yet? So...

There are certainly, as you said, these daydreams, which are very helpful—that I just think about, so to speak, before flying, what it's like for me in the air, what are the typical situations where I get uneasy, and I think about what would help me, what would serve me, how could I support myself. For example, I like to do a thought exercise: if I were my best friend, what would she advise me, so that I can simply figure out what I actually need in that moment. And then I can think about what would be useful for me, what I actually need, what gives me security.

And then I already have the idea of how I can prepare for this situation a bit, what I can change beforehand so that I have it, so that I have it available. Then, of course, you can daydream a bit and imagine how I would feel if I felt comfortable? What thoughts would I have if I felt comfortable? Because very many fears in the air, above all, are actually triggered by judgments of the situation. So you judge the situation as dangerous or not okay and thereby activate, so to speak, these really old, firmly installed flight programs, for example.

And they are intense, of course; your heart races, we all know that, your mouth goes dry, your hands start to sweat, your brain goes completely blank because all the blood, so to speak, goes to your extremities so that you can run. And if I let it get that far, then I just can't think. In that situation, I can't creatively find a solution. That's why it's important that I find them beforehand and think about what it should be like, what it should look like, and take a certain plan with me into the air. And then, in the air, I can, for example, remember a good thought I can have, a thought that thermals support. For example, everyone knows that "altitude is safety," that's such a typical sentence.

That's just a bit general, everyone knows it. But you can find your own specific phrases that really grab you. And the more my thought grips me and touches me emotionally, the more effective it will be.

I once had a conversation or an interview with Bernie Pessel, a major Austrian long-distance pilot. And I asked him about it because he often still flies in pretty heavy conditions where others would say, I'd rather land. And I asked him how he deals with that? And then he said, well, if it gets really heavy, I just start to cheer and I just get happy about it. Is that exactly how you deal with such situations? That

that's absolutely a tactic you can use. The important thing is simply having something ready that you can use. You shouldn't be thinking about what to do in the moment, because there's no capacity left in your brain. The brain is empty. Blood is in your limbs for the fight or flight response. I can think of that. That means I have to know it beforehand. What do I want to do? What do I want to think? And many people just have thoughts that aren't helpful. They think, oh my god, hold my carabiners, for example. Or, oh my god, that cloud looks so gray. Those aren't useful thoughts; they just increase my fear and don't change the situation at all. That means I think beforehand about which thought will help me.

And you can be creative with that. Just let your creativity run a bit wild. For example, I took someone's idea: if it's shaking a lot or something, I tell myself, in a minute it'll probably be fine again.

Then I know I just have to hold on for one minute and then it'll probably be nice again. And then I tell myself this sentence, I think to myself, in one minute it'll probably be nice again. And it just motivates me a bit to wait, not to fly off right away, but to stay in it. And often it really is like that, that after one minute it's already nice again.

Exactly. That's also a bit like autosuggestion, isn't it?

Yeah, you could say that.

If we step away from hypnosis as a topic for a moment. You also offer very classic mental training, where it's not specifically about hypnosis. And among other things, I saw, for SIV training. What do you do with the pilots there? How do you supplement SIV training with your mental training? Yes,

So, everything I teach in mental training comes from my knowledge of hypnosis and also from my knowledge as a midwife. In these two professions, I've basically gained a huge wealth of experience in how we tick in extreme situations. A birth is an extreme situation, too. And I've spent many hours at a birth; you're in labor for hours, you're with a woman for hours, for nights on end, as she goes through this process, and you learn a lot. What helps in such a moment and what doesn't? And you can also try things out.

If you have something that doesn't help, it won't be accepted. That means I won't be able to support the woman. On the contrary, I might even make the situation worse. But if I can develop a good intuition for the moment and what it needs right now, then it becomes easier. And over time, I was able to recognize that there are certain underlying structures. Let me put it this way: they structure the process. That's something you can't see, but you can recognize it if you experience it often. The second thing is that hypnosis, of course, gave me a lot of knowledge about how we tick, how the unconscious thinks, what's important to the unconscious so that it works together with conscious thinking, and what prerequisites it needs.

And from all of that, I basically created this mental coaching. And it just works like this: before you train, you sit down together for an hour every day and I basically convey this knowledge. So, this mental coaching is a lot of knowledge transfer. How do we tick at all? What's going on in such an extreme situation? What happens in that moment and what helps and what doesn't help at all? That I already have an idea of how I can approach it? And we actually always know very well ourselves what is good for us. And the more I can simply understand the situation and understand what's going on inside me, the better I can also decide what is good for me in that moment.

What

Are there typical situations during SIV training that you experience repeatedly, where the pilots say, "I need some help here"? So, what are the main questions that come up? Yes,

It's new territory for everyone, of course. So we're dealing a lot with that "new territory" instinct, so to speak.

That's for everyone, and I really believe that's true without exception. Everyone—some people can just handle it better than others, the other person gets a bit more worked up, but basically, it's the same for everyone. I don't know anyone who goes into an SIV training completely calm and flies their first full Stall totally relaxed. Everyone is nervous and everyone is thinking about it, going through the maneuver again, and so on. And yeah, it's simply, how do I get through that in a good way without, so to speak, putting myself into a red zone. That's actually the most important thing. How can I do something new where I don't know exactly yet—I just can't know everything exactly.

I can prepare, I can go through it theoretically, but then I have to do it. And especially a Stall, I have to see it through. I can't stop in the middle; I either do it or I don't.

Is there something like a simple technique to basically open up my subconscious so that it says, "Wonderful, something really new is happening now, it might get me excited or something, but I'll just accept it now" or faster? Is there a basic technique for how to get that to happen? I mean...

Basically, for me, the simplest way is of course to do it with hypnosis. You can do that yourself too. I always ask for permission, for example, if I have the permission to do it, if I have the full support of my subconscious. And if it says, yes, I fully support you, then I know I have it. How does it tell me...

the subconscious, right? Yes, so

For me, it's very simple, and I teach it to anyone who, for example, comes to me for hypnosis. It involves totally simple techniques, like how you can, for instance, establish a sign language with the unconscious.

Do I have to make a sign for the subconscious, or does the subconscious give me a sign back and I just have to talk to it with words? Yes,

we make that out. We just make that out. At some point, you say to the unconscious—for example, "Unconscious, you're dealing with that," say, "if you agree, then move, for example, let the right index finger go up." That's a very small movement, no one will notice it, no one will see it. And then you can just go inward for a moment, you can go into a very brief trance, say, "Unconscious, I want to know something, I want to ask you something quickly. Do you agree with that, yes or no?" And if it says yes, you should lift the index finger. And then your unconscious can control your index finger. It can, so to speak, briefly control the musculature and take over. And then I have my sign. But it only works if I agree to it, if I've made that arrangement.

Of course, if I get involved and say, "Yeah, I don't believe that anyway," then it won't work either. It then becomes difficult to find good communication.

So I really have to learn or practice, train, to basically strike deals with my conscious and subconscious.

Yes, you just have to get in touch. And now, with SIV training, with mental training, I don't use hypnosis in that sense, but I teach people how they can communicate with the unconscious and how they can also notice if the communication is working—meaning, how they can build that good connection. And we all have that. For example, everyone knows intuition. That's an expression everyone knows and everyone has experienced at some point. Intuition is actually nothing other than a communication with the unconscious. It gives me a piece of information and says, "Pay attention to that."

That's also something else, talking about gut feeling or something like that. Is that the same? Yes,

absolutely. And it's important not to disregard that. That you simply listen to it, that you're attentive to your gut feeling and so on. And it's really not that easy. These are complex processes and everyone knows that too, finding this way, this path, especially during SIV training between excitement and over-excitement, which then blocks you again. Or that you make it too easy for yourself, saying, yeah, yeah, everything's easy, and then suddenly you're in a real mess and think to yourself, oops, it wasn't that easy after all.

It's simply a path that you can only take step by step, and I believe that's where the secret lies—for example, in mental coaching, we really work on taking things step by step and only looking at the step we're taking right now, so that your capacity is fully there.

Can the subconscious also react defensively if you don't listen to it?

So it's not offended; it's not trying to punish you or anything. Actually, the unconscious is completely on your side. You could put it that way. It's actually the best friend you can have. It would never react by getting offended and saying, "Alright, let me show you now." But it's simply possible that it has reasons—good reasons—for its actions, but those reasons might not be conscious to you at that moment. It's also possible that something has become automated, just a disadvantageous way of doing things that is simply repeated over and over again, but doesn't lead to success.

We think that because I feel bad—meaning, if I have a pattern that doesn't actually get me anywhere and keeps failing over and over—then I don't feel good. And then I think to myself, oh, the unconscious wants to punish me because it's making me feel bad. But actually, it's doing me a favor by showing me that there's something there.

Take a look and see if that's still relevant, if you still want to keep going like that. So, it's not actually a punishment; it's a signal that sort of places a marker and says, "Here's something that could be more optimal, that could run better." And whenever the unconscious puts us in a situation like that at all, it's also a signal that we have the resources to change it and the possibilities. Difficulties.

People who, for example, have a really bad trauma and don't have the resources, often aren't aware of anything at all. They don't notice it at all. They completely forget things. So, it's always a sign when the unconscious gives me a signal—for example, that I don't feel good about something—that it's like I'm saying, look there, actually we don't need that anymore. It's no longer relevant. Do something new.

Speaking of developing yourself and mental training. Besides the SIV training, you've also worked as a mental coach during a ground handling training. That was in Portugal and it was a course that was only advertised for women. What was your experience like there?

Yes, well, I have to say, this training with the women was one of the most beautiful work weeks of my life. It was gigantic. It was just pure joy because, in that case, I could really witness such development within a short time because of how these components came together. Ground handling is simply brilliant for improving your technique. There's really almost nothing better.

It takes place on the ground, so you have a certain level of... well, you have more safety. So, if I take the glider into the flyback on the ground, for example, it's different than flying a full Stall in the air. And in combination, so to speak, with these daily mental preparations—what is my goal, where do I want to go, how do I do it step by step, what's actually next, what are my difficulties along the way, what are my resources, how do I want to use them—you could just see it. From the second or third day, how the switch flips. And for me, it was really something very moving every time to see how the women just blossomed.

They often did a complete 180; they were just having fun, they were laughing, they were daring to do things, they didn't want to stop at all. I mean, they didn't want to eat, they just wanted to keep flying and do something with that glider. And that was a unique experience, yeah.

Well, those were only women. Do you think this experience could be the same with men? Or are women different in some way in this regard? Do they handle such developments differently, maybe also differently with fears or whatever?

What I can see with the women is that when they're among themselves, they come out of their shells more. That they dare more, so they step forward more.

And what I also feel—well, that's a bit of a theory, I don't know, I can't say for sure, it's just a feeling I have—is that it does the women good to have female role models too. To see another woman doing what they might not be able to do yet, who's sort of showing them the way, because we aren't necessarily... well, in this sport, we're surrounded by a lot of men. Maybe there are more women during the training, but then once we're on the mountain, the majority are men. For years, I've almost been the only one here. Many days, I'm the only woman at the launch site.

And that means my environment is always men and I look at them. And when I look at them, I don't necessarily identify with them because they're men, they're not like me. Exactly, and but if I see a woman who might be small and delicate and has kids and she, I don't know, she flies great, she has her glider perfectly under control, she does great starts, whatever, then I think to myself, aha, so if she can do that, maybe I can too. And I think that's a big aspect of why the women push each other so much, because for them too, it's new to see other women doing something and that inspires them.

Then I can do something too, and there's this effect, this dynamic, where they push each other extremely. Yeah,

That means, if you take your experience into account, it would actually make sense for women to go flying with other women much more often and really form women's clubs in a sense.

Yes, I would say so, yes. I would say so. It would of course be nice, eventually, how should I put it, I think it's in my imagination or I would of course wish that men and women flew together and had the same fun as men with each other or women with each other. But in reality, I can simply see that too. I can see it with the men that they enjoy flying with each other, so with their buddies and among themselves. And I see the same thing with the women, that they just come out of their shells more when they are among themselves. And I believe this search for role models, that it's good for a woman to have a female role model, someone where you say

...actually, she's like me and she can do it too, and then I find ways to do it as well. If I see a mother who has managed to keep flying with children, I think to myself, "How did she do that?" Then you can talk to her, and it becomes more possible for me. But if I only see women who stop flying when the children come, I don't get any inspiration on how that could work. And then there are just a few who forge their own path. But I think for many, it's just easier if you have a bit of a push from the outside and don't have to invent everything yourself like a pioneer.

Well, we were just talking about pre-flight stress. You're saying now that if women are around a lot of men, they don't see them as role models and maybe feel more observed by the men or whatever. Are there typical fears where you see that it's more of a fear that occurs more often in women, and another fear that is more commonly observed in men among pilots?

I don't think so, no. I just think the way they deal with it is different. But I believe the fears are the same, yes.

In what form?

Yeah, well, maybe that's already been portrayed a bit clichéd. I mean, it's definitely always individual. But with women, for example, I can observe a lot that they tend to underestimate their abilities. Like, they don't trust themselves enough, so they hold back even more and think, "I can't do this," and sort of dampen themselves down, so to speak. And with men, you can maybe even observe the opposite—that they might feel inside that they really can do it, but they play it off with, "Yeah, sure, I can do it. It's quite simple," and you can see it then; they might do it anyway, they go for the start, but you watch the start and you see, well, there was a certain amount of nervousness there.

You can see it in their movements—they're not as smooth as they are when you're calm.

Do men then perhaps act more through their subconscious? Do they not listen to the signals as much? That

I don't know. I think it's really a different approach and it's different problems, let's just say. And I think a large part of it is simply rooted in our upbringing. I don't even think it's typically male or typically female, but rather that it's rooted in how we are simply used to being a man or a woman in society. And that's how it manifests in how we handle it and how we express it. But I think, basically, when you break it down, it's actually similar for men and women. It's just that the approach is different.

You have a website, www.berghypnose.ch, where you describe a lot of this mental training, hypnosis, and other things. I've noticed two terms coming up repeatedly in many of your texts. One is attention and the other is mindfulness. What do these mean to you and for flying?

Yes,

Attention is, I believe, everything in flying. So the more I put myself in a position to be attentive, the more I can perceive what is needed right now and simply react well. And that's why, for me, attention is actually the be-all and end-all. The more attentive I can be to what's happening outside—for example, regarding the weather—to what's happening in the glider, and to what's happening inside me, the more I pick up on it and the better I can adjust to it.

The second term was mindfulness. How does that differ from attention, and what is special about it?

That's a good question. So, if I were to answer that spontaneously right now, I'd say that for me, being mindful is the way I handle my attention. Being attentive means I'm perceiving something, and when I'm mindful,

then I pay attention to myself, to how I deal with the things I perceive. So, if I notice, for example, that I'm feeling uncomfortable or whatever, I can say to myself, "Are you being crazy again? Don't be such a drama queen, come on, just do it." Or I can be mindful—that would be more mindful for me—just be kind to myself and say, "Aha, yes, you're worrying again, but I think everything is okay, just be brave, in a minute it'll probably be beautiful again." Exactly, so I think, yeah, maybe it's actually a similar term. Maybe you could say that mindfulness gives a bit more indication to the way I'm always mindful of myself and also of what I encounter while flying, meaning the conditions.

Well, you recently got your tandem license, you mentioned that earlier. What does the topic of mindfulness mean for you as a tandem pilot?

Yeah, I have to say, that still needs to find its place. Right now, I'm still a beginner, a beginner tandem pilot. When I fly with friends, I can fly very mindfully. But when I fly with passengers, with strangers, that's still relatively new for me. And I notice, for example, that my capacity is still a bit occupied by the procedures themselves. There's no real routine yet that I can call upon that just runs automatically. So I still have difficulties with my camera. How do I pull the stick out now? How do I stow it again afterwards? I have no idea. I'm just so preoccupied with the details that, as I would like it to be, the mindfulness isn't there yet.

But I know that in that moment, there's no other way, because that's just the learning process I have to go through right now. On the other hand, it's also mindful to notice that and to say, yeah, right now I'm at this point. I'm not a tandem pilot with a lot of experience yet, I'm brand new, and I still need a bit more time for everything. The procedures take a lot more energy because they aren't really routine yet. I get tired much earlier than, say, a pilot who's been flying for a long time. So after three flights, I'm basically done. I'm tired. I'm exhausted—yeah, actually, I'm happy if there isn't a fourth flight.

That

That means, with attention and mindfulness, you realize, "Those were three flights, I can't do any more," and I just fundamentally won't do a fourth one anymore.

Yeah, at the moment it's not like I'm fully booked all day or anything. But that's exactly when I notice—well, the way I imagine the tandem pilot I'd like to be, I'd actually like to have time for the person I'm flying with. To really be able to focus on who they are, how we can make it a great experience. And now I'm noticing that sometimes I can do that, but other times I'm just busy, I'm tied up, my capacity is taken up with, you know, camera out, camera in, turning the camera on.

Yeah.

Exactly. What does your future aviation career look like? What plans do you have for that?

Yeah, I'm not really a planner. I'm not really a planner. It always drives you somewhere. Yeah, that's how it is. In any case, I hope that flying continues to take up a big place in my life. That I can just keep doing it for a long time, that I can keep going with it, that it's part of it.

Could you imagine getting by in life without flying?

As long as I can kite?

Yes, I've asked myself that question quite a few times as well. I do think it's possible. I mean, flying isn't really a thing for me where I'd say I can't live without it. But I'd find it very sad. I'd find it very sad, yeah. Yes.

If you had to sum it up in one point, what would you miss the most?

So if I couldn't fly, I'd miss those moments the most, where you're right in the thick of it rather than just watching. Like being right there in nature, looking around and thinking, wow, this is amazing. Amazing, it's amazing how I live, where I live, this world is just brilliant, it's so beautiful, I don't want to be anywhere else.

Okay Katrin, thanks for this great conversation, I really enjoyed it, and I hope the podcast listeners did too. I wish you many more beautiful flights and all the best for the future with being in the thick of it rather than just watching from the sidelines.

Thank you for the invitation, I was happy to do it.

That was Katrin Ganter in conversation with Lucian Haas. If you're interested in the topic of hypnosis and paragliding, I recommend taking a look at Katrin's website. You can find it at www.berghypnose.ch. That

was the third episode of Podz-Glidz, the podcast of the paraglider blog Lu-Glidz. As always, I'd like to note that I welcome both positive and critical feedback. Feel free to send it via a comment on the blog or by email to luglidzkontakt.gmail.com. Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz can be found online for free. I do this completely independently and am not funded by advertising. However, I do rely on voluntary support from my readers and listeners. If you enjoyed this podcast or if you also regularly read Lu-Glidz, you can support my work. You can find instructions on the Lu-Glidz website on how to easily do this via PayPal or bank transfer. The address is www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com.

Lu-Glidz is spelled l-u-g-l-i-d-z.

Now I'll just say thanks for listening. Until next time.