I figured that nobody has probably ever done this before, and in a way, that makes it a world record. And if someone comes along and says, "Hey, anyone can do that, so it's not a world record," then I'll say, "Fine, then do it at 60."
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Peter
Renner and
Lucian Haas at the microphone. This
is the 20th episode of Podz-Glidz, after one year. When I started the podcast, I didn't expect to reach this number so soon myself. But there are simply many interesting stories in the world of paragliding that want to be told. And there are many protagonists, especially the lesser-known ones, who like to do that in their own unique way if you ask them. For me, that's what makes doing Podz-Glidz so appealing. And apparently, the results are also listenable. At least I keep receiving positive messages asking me to please continue in exactly this way. I want to and I will gladly do so. However, a project like this, just like my Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz, consumes a lot, a lot of time. Basically too much to keep giving it away for free in the long run.
Since I earn my money as a freelance journalist based on what I put my working hours into, I need your support as a patron for the continued existence of Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz. No matter how much you earn. I'll leave it up to you what you want to give as a contribution. As a non-binding guideline, I recommend one euro per podcast episode and two euros per reading month on Lu-Glidz. Payments are very easy via PayPal or bank transfer. You can find the relevant details on the Lu-Glidz website, specifically on the Support page. Now, to the actual topic of this episode.
Hike and Fly. That's the trend in paragliding. It's no longer just about taking the train to the mountains to fly, but about hiking up to the launch sites on foot. And records can be set in this discipline too. For example, the most vertical meters in a single day. The world record here is 13,040 meters, set in the summer of 2018 by Lukas Hofer from South Tyrol. However, the 60-year-old Peter Renner from Bad Reichenhall had set a different record goal for 2019. Within one year, he wanted to complete 365 Hike and Flies. With an average of 500 meters of elevation gain and at least 300 meters each. Purely mathematically, that means a hike plus a flight every day of the year.
It's logical that it can't happen every single day just because of meteorological constraints. But that just means that on other days, Peter had to put his surname, Renner, into action on the mountains even more frequently. Shortly before the end of the year, during the recording of this podcast, Peter was still slightly behind, but he remained confident that he would still manage to reach the target of 365. In our conversation, he told me, among other things, how he came up with the crazy idea in the first place. He talks about special experiences during ascents and descents, gives insights into how Hike and Fly has become an addiction for him, and explains why, in his eyes, there are hardly any unflyable days anymore, and how his other limits have constantly been pushed further by flying almost every day.
Peter. Today, as we're recording this podcast, there are exactly two weeks left until the end of the year. How many Hike and Fly flights have you actually reached by now?
343. I think, I don't know exactly, I'm eight behind. I need to step it up now. It's difficult at the moment because we have some crazy Föhn conditions. We have Föhn storms of up to a hundred kilometers per hour in places. We were up on the mountain today. We could have flown without a glider.
Your goal was really to manage to do 365 Hike and Flys in one year. So, mathematically, that would mean going up the mountain every day and flying back down every day. If that's not as easy to achieve given the current weather situation—and looking at what's coming until the end of the year, it doesn't look much better—do you still have hope of actually reaching this goal?
I'm actually pretty sure. Because once a good weather window comes along, I just have to step on it. I've had days where I've logged ten hike and flies. I did 500 meters of elevation gain, so 5,000 meters of elevation gain in...
Hey. What if you don't manage to do the 365, for whatever reason? Would you be disappointed? Actually, no,
because there were so many experiences throughout the whole year. And it was so gigantic that it actually doesn't matter anymore. Only for the project, I mean. But for me personally, it's not that important anymore.
You set this goal of doing 365 hike and flies in one year for yourself. How do you come up with such a crazy idea?
It's a story. Yeah, tell me about it.
Last year, a guy named Michael Strasser, a Viennese man, set a Guinness World Record. He went from Alaska to Patagonia on a racing bike—23,000 kilometers and 80,000 meters of elevation gain. The old record was 100 days, and he wanted to break it. After a week, he posted on Facebook—I'm friends with him—saying, "Help, help, I don't have a cameraman anymore. He's gotten sick of me, I need one." So I sent my son a WhatsApp: "Hey, you're on semester break, get in touch." And he flew to Mexico within two days, accompanied him for two and a half months, and filmed his movie and took his photos. And this Michael Strasser did a charity project.
Yes, for a specific friend who has a certain illness, and he wanted to raise as much as possible. And I thought to myself, I'm about to turn 60, I want to do something too. And physically as well. I used to do a lot of mountaineering and mountain running, I was out and about a lot, and then I did nothing for almost 20 years. I gained 25 kilos and thought, now you have to step it up again. And I thought to myself, what can I do? I'm good at mountaineering and mountain running, and I've been a pilot for almost 40 years. First hang gliding, and then for 30 years a paraglider. And then I just thought, now you'll climb the mountain 365 times a year and fly down.
That means, in
Basically, you wanted to prove it to yourself and maybe to others again, in a way.
Exactly. I thought to myself, nobody has ever done this before. And in a way, that's a world record. And if someone comes along and says, hey, anyone can do that, that's not a world record, then I'll say, then do it at 60.
Well, running up the mountain every day takes up a lot of time, of course. How do you manage to combine that with a job?
Well, everyone says you must be retired, that you don't have a job anymore. On the contrary, at the beginning of the year I had three jobs, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to afford it at all. It's just that in the summer I'm already on the mountain part of the time by 4 a.m. And I'm back by the time I have to work. What do you do for a living?
Can I ask you something?
I work in a hotel, but it's for an acquaintance who's currently giving me a lot of free time. I do reception, breakfast service, and I'm also a jack-of-all-trades. I owned a hotel myself for 20 years, and the owner of this hotel learned the trade from me. And now I work for her.
That means you can still do the breakfast in the morning and then run up the mountain again afterwards and so on. Exactly. If you're saying 365 times hike and fly a year and that's supposed to be a record, then it means for a record to be recognized, there have to be some rules. There must be some rules set out where you can say, I've also followed these rules. What rules did you set for yourself? I
I set the rules for myself. The hike must have a minimum of 300 meters of elevation gain, but it should average 500 meters per year. And did you always stick to that? Yes, I'm way over that. I've done so many 3,000-meter peaks and several times the Watzmann, which is 2,000 meters of elevation gain; I'm way, way over. I'm already at nearly 200,000 meters. Wow.
Before you started doing that at the beginning of the year, did you already have experience with hike and fly or a lot of experience? Or was it also a novelty for you, saying, I'll test out what it's like to run up the mountain that much? How
I've said I've been flying for 40 years. I used to fly a lot. For a while, I didn't fly much anymore. I also went down with a paraglider and then stopped for a bit. And when I started flying a lot again about three years ago, I noticed what had happened in the development of these light mountain gliders and was totally thrilled; I immediately got one of those mountain gliders and was out in the mountains constantly.
Did you train specifically in any way before that year, or did you say that climbing up is training enough, that I'll do it every day anyway and by the end of the year I'll be super fit, and maybe not at the beginning? I have
I started getting back into sports a few years ago. I started training for mountain running, then did the Zugspitz Ultra Trail—100 kilometers and 7,000 meters of elevation gain—and I was already pretty fit before this project. However, I'm much fitter now, and it doesn't bother me at all anymore if I do 3,000 to 4,000 meters of elevation gain in a day. That is
...the progress in fitness you've experienced. What has changed in your head over the course of this year? Has your attitude changed over time? What does running in the mountains mean to you today compared to a year ago?
How should I describe it?
It's completely different now. About a year ago, I used to think about things like the weather, the wind, how many meters of elevation, and so on. But now I just head out because I figure something will always work out.
Do you fly differently with it too, or is it just the decision to go up the mountain at all for now? I
I've become bolder. You get bolder, honestly. I mean, I'm starting now in conditions where, a year ago, I wouldn't have even taken out a glider.
Because of too much wind or because it's also raining? Or what do you mean?
that? I have a single skin, a single - and tandem too is single skin, with which I still start with 6, 7, 8 kilometers of tailwind. I would never have done that before. And we're out with touring skis a lot now. We were in Spitzingsee recently, and there must have been a tailwind of about 10, that almost blew our glider away. With the skis, no problem, because you have enough speed.
So you just said you're out there with the single skin. Did you do all of these flights with the single skin, or did you use other gear in between?
I've been sponsored by Niviuk gliders and for almost the entire summer I mostly flew the Hook 4, because I also want to do a bit of distance flying on the side. If it's really possible, I want to head off. That's not so easy to do with the Single Skin. Have
did you fly some really nice routes there? I mean, in the sense that you covered some distance in kilometers too, not just in terms of vertical meters?
Well, I've flown a 70-kilometer triangle or something like that once. Not more, because time-wise it just wasn't possible yet. But I've had incredibly beautiful flights lasting over 3, 4, 5 hours here in Berchtesgaden over the Watzmann, Göll, and Hochkalter. I also have videos on my Facebook account—they are truly gigantic.
You've been flying the tandem more often now. You also mentioned you had a single skin tandem that you hiked up with. You always need a partner to hike up with you, too. Were all the people who flew with you always hiking up from below, or did they say, "you hike up, I'll take the lift, we'll meet at the top"?
About 90 percent of the time, it's my girlfriend, Agata, who's been out there with me now—how long has she been at it? I think about four or five months now. She's been out there with me, and she's already so fit by now that she's almost leaving me behind.
That means she took it as a fitness program for herself and said, "Wonderful, crazy Peter, I'll just tag along," and in the end, she was fitter than you.
She wasn't really fit at the beginning, but by now she's so fit and she'd never even done a paragliding flight at the start. We tested it out at the beginning and she had so much fun that she's now with us almost every time it's somehow possible.
How many of your hike and flies... you said 341 were there now? 43. It was 43 now. How many of those did you do with the tandem? Do you have that in your head?
Not off the top of my head, but I'd estimate just under 100 by now.
Is it a special challenge to do something like that with a tandem?
It's more fun because you're not out there alone. Both on the way up and while flying, right? Exactly, right.
Did you have tandem passengers in a professional sense, like people saying, "I'm booking a tandem flight with you, so I'll even hike up that mountain with you specifically"?
I did too. As I mentioned, I work at the hotel. I offered tandem flights there. I had some people who hiked up with me, but I also had some who took the cable car while I hiked up.
Now you've done 343 flights. In a year like that, there must be an incredible amount of memories, probably linked to all those flights in some way. Are there any particular highlights? Is there any flight or any ascent that has stayed in your mind as particularly remarkable? And for what reason?
ever? The Ortler. I think that was in August or something. I went there spontaneously because I had three days off. The forecasts were absolute garbage. So it actually shouldn't have worked at all. I went up, and at the hut at the top, the mountain guides asked, "What are you doing here with the paraglider? It's impossible. You can't fly. The mountain is closed tomorrow. You have the wrong wind. It doesn't work." I said if I'm going up here anyway, then I'm taking my glider with me too. I don't go anywhere without a glider. And then I started from the hut at 5 o'clock, set off, moved quickly, was up there by 7 o'clock, and had a window of about 20 minutes where it was completely open; I had a slight tailwind and then had a gigantic flight.
That was the absolute highlight.
Did you start from up there with skis too? Or tailwind from the snow? From the snow. But that worked. Yeah, it was a real
a slight tailwind. It was
hardly worth mentioning. But that was also as a solo. You didn't do that with the tandem. It was solo, yes. Did you then hike all the way up there completely alone?
I went up alone. The mountain guides scolded me. You don't do that. You don't go over the glacier alone.
But I did it anyway.
During all this time, with all these flights, did you ever have a moment where you'd say, "That was a sketchy situation"? A time where you were lucky to make it through at all?
We only had that once. I think it was about four weeks ago. We were in India, in Bir, in the Himalayas. And we went up a mountain. The launch site there was so steep. I hadn't seen it from below. No one had ever launched from there before. So we launched with the Agatha and had a real botched start. Then we tumbled down 150, 200 meters over rocks and debris. We both had bruises and contusions. It was really intense. But we had to launch because otherwise we would have had to hike for seven or eight hours. It would have been dark. So we just had to launch.
And where you were at the bottom, could you start again? We had to...
go up. And Agatha was a bit scared too. She said she'd rather go down the switchbacks.
But
it worked. But it was really, it was touch and go. But did she still go flying with you after that? Like, still afterwards? She kept going,
but she was a bit hesitant at the starts. I had to drag her along every now and then.
Did you go to India because you said the weather is also really good there? Like, you could say that in India you can do more flights at that time of year than when you were here? Or was it just out of interest? It was Plan B.
I actually wanted to do the X-Alps in reverse at that time. From Monaco to Berchtesgaden.
I would have taken five weeks. But I'd broken my ribs beforehand and wasn't really fit. And I wouldn't have made it through. And then we decided at short notice to fly to Bier, because I had acquaintances down there who flew. They said, hey, it's gigantic, you can fly up to 6,000 meters there. And that was plan B.
Did the rib fracture have anything to do with the project? Like, was it the result of a failed landing or something? It was from hotel work with a trash can. A struggle with a trash can. That means hotel work might actually be more dangerous in the end than running up the mountain every day and throwing yourself down it.
They say the most dangerous thing about paragliding is usually the drive to the launch site.
Yeah, that's how you can at least sometimes sugarcoat it. Let's get back to the weather. If you go up there every day, of course you have different weather every day, but you also have to somehow adapt to every type of weather. What did you mainly look out for at the beginning, and then over time, what were the weather variables that were decisive for you?
The wind, always the wind. If there's really more wind, then of course I always have to orient myself based on the wind from the mountain. But we're lucky that we have so many different launch directions here in Berchtesgaden. Some of them aren't really allowed, only tolerated, but I have a launch site for every wind direction and then just decide which mountain to hike up.
Were there any flights where you'd say, weather-wise, it was actually completely stupid to take off here right now?
Yeah, just blind flights, completely normal. Or in heavy snowfall, where you could barely see anything. I've also set off many times in pouring rain, but I think I have a very good feel for it because out of 343 hike and flies, I've only...
have to go down. There were also some really intense finishes where you're like, crap, now I actually have to lose 1,000 and more meters of elevation? Or were those more like the smaller, shorter ones?
I had to descend from the Watzmann twice. Okay, that's 2,000 meters of elevation, but it's not tragic. I know the route. I've been to the Watzmann a total of 150 times.
And regarding your flights, where you say there were some blind flights and stuff, did you start directly in the cloud in the fog, or quasi into the cloud, and had to fly through it just to know that you could land again down there? Or how was that?
Well, I already made sure; I called my friend at the hotel down below and asked what it looked like down there. When would the fog or the cloud clear? And man, you just fly with your GPS, that's enough to get by.
Right at the beginning, you were also in Spain and did some things there. Was it also because you said that in the spring you can't fly very well here yet, and you have to go somewhere where you can already create a proper cushion for yourself?
Actually, no, because for me, skiing here in the winter is optimal, because you can really start anywhere if there's enough snow, even with a tailwind, because you have enough speed; you can land anywhere, you don't have to watch the wind when landing because you can glide beautifully with the skis. It was more due to illness. I had a fungal spore poisoning at the beginning and I wasn't feeling well, so I just went somewhere with warm weather.
Once it's fungal spore poisoning, once it's a bruised rib, and every time it's an excuse to somehow go abroad. That's pretty clever, of course.
Exactly, it's also a bit of fun then.
How did you actually document all your flights? If you're saying this is supposed to be a record and maybe even get recognized somewhere, how do you find that out?
I documented the flights—the climbs—with Movescount, then on XC, what's it called, from DHV, Leonardo, I have the saved flights, and then of course with the GoPro; I think I have just under 200 videos in total that I recorded with the GoPro.
You've also published some of these films on your blog, sometimes on Facebook, but you also have them on your own website.
You also have a blog for 365hikeandfly, and you can find many of those films on there too. I found it interesting that in this blog—you didn't really do it at the beginning, but later it happened more and more—you wrote some interesting quote above every blog post, which probably was supposed to express something together with that flight. I want to play a little game with you now. I'll just tell you a few of those quotes you mentioned there. I
To be honest, I didn't write those. A friend of mine who does my homepage wrote them. Ah. And I almost never look at my blog. I barely know the quotes.
Then the game might not work out exactly as I imagined, but we'll give it a try anyway. Then you can just tell me what comes to mind personally regarding these sayings your friend wrote in there, and what they might have to do with you. For example, one saying is: opportunities are like sunrises, those who wait too long will miss them. Wow,
That was, that was probably what she meant, the chance of getting together with her. Most of these sayings are allusions to me.
Right. Second saying. Traveling first leaves you speechless and then turns you into a storyteller.
Because when I get back from a trip, I always have quite a lot to say and people call me a chatterbox.
Mhm. The third saying is that nothing motivates me more than the three words, that's not possible.
Because Babsi knows that I believe there's nothing that can't be done.
Are you the type who likes to just smash through walls?
Just. Full blast.
That means, like you're saying, if the mountain guide tells you on the Ortler that it's not possible, you'd say, "Well, I'll just quickly hike up anyway." No, I...
I said to the mountain guide, hey, buddy, listen, I've been up there a thousand times, I've been in the mountains for 40 years and you're going up here with three clients and have three people on the line. That's way more dangerous than if I go up alone. Because if one falls, all four fall.
Then a comment, or maybe it's not a comment, but maybe what you felt back then. It says, 196. Hike and Fly on the 196th day of the year. So that was exactly halfway.
I thought to myself, hey, you're on track, it's going to work.
And then there's this saying I wrote down: 3,000 meters of elevation gain and nine hours. At that point, I think you've climbed the Führmannalm or something like that about ten times. Right, exactly. Is that even still fun anymore?
Personally, I enjoyed it, mainly because the wind was perfect. I was out there with the single skin, and I just kept throwing it out and away, and throwing it out and away.
And it was pretty funny because that's also a training site for high-altitude flights from the Chiemsee flight school. And they just thought I was a bit crazy.
If someone came up to you now and said they wanted to do something like that too, would you advise them against it?
It really depends on how fit he is, both physically and in terms of his flying skills.
What would you give yourself as a tip today, including the experience from those 343 hike and flies you've already done, for the beginning of the year? If you were to go back, is there something you'd say, looking back from today, that you'd give yourself as a tip on how you could have approached it differently back then? I would have
built up more of a buffer, then I wouldn't have to worry about the flights at the end.
That means you should have pushed a bit harder in between. You were too lazy. True, sometimes. The project itself, much like the one from that cyclist you mentioned, also has a charity character. You said you want to donate to UNICEF and set a donation goal of 18,000 euros. How did you come up with that donation goal?
I actually thought one euro per meter of elevation, and I was counting on 180,000 meters; maybe the donation amount was a bit of a reach, but maybe someone will come along who donates that much.
I checked earlier, and right now the donation clock is only at 320 euros. So there's a huge discrepancy. When you see something like that, is it disappointing for you?
Not anymore, because I've spoken to so many people who have already done something like this and they say it's completely normal—people just don't donate. Especially with projects like this, they think, "Hey, he's just having fun, should we really give him money?" And I think it's also like this: on my homepage, the donation part is placed somewhat awkwardly, and UNICEF themselves said there's no other way with this button and we couldn't get it sorted. A lot of people donated directly to UNICEF; they didn't go through my button but went straight to UNICEF at the top and donated directly to them. I was angry at first and said, "Hey, shit," but by now I don't care because the money arrives anyway.
That means the donations that were perhaps triggered by you, at least, are significantly more than the 320 euros that ended up in the... Yes,
I know that because many people said, "Hey, I've donated, but I'm not showing up on the list." Then I explained that they just clicked the wrong button. By now, I don't really care.
Now this project ends at the end of the year, then hopefully maybe really with the 365th flight on New Year's Eve or something like that. How will it continue in 2020? Are you going to put your feet up and say, that's it for now? Or are you so in the flow that you'll say, no, in 2020 I'm going to tack on just as many flights again?
Something is floating around in my head, but I'm not saying it yet. Come on, give me a hint, at least a little bit.
Ideas, maybe 365 Tandem Hike-and-Fly or double that. Has Hike-and-Fly become kind of of an addiction for you? Definitely. A total addiction. Completely. If I go anywhere, whether for work or with my family, I'm just looking at where I could start.
What will the launch site look like up there? What's the wind like? I just can't think any other way. And
do you live with that well or does it bother you sometimes too? No, not at all. On the contrary. Addiction can be a burden sometimes. This isn't a burden.
It's fun.
Besides these 365 days, which was a goal, is there another goal where you'd like to achieve it again, both by plane and by running?
Yes, I'd really like to do things like, especially since we were in the Himalayas in India, Himalayan crossings, Himalayan crossings,
so bivouacking and flying. It's my dream to do longer distances and for longer periods of time.
And if you say you'd also like to do the X-Alps once, but in reverse, from Monaco to Salzburg, you could even organize a kind of seniors' X-Alps.
Right, that would be an idea. But last year we had one—I don't know where he's from, a Japanese guy or something? Yeah, Ogisaba. He's just as old as I am. He's a '59er. That
So, are you going to apply for the next X-Alps as well?
I won't. I'm not doing it anymore. I did a competition with Kriegel Maurer a few weeks ago. And I think I'm too old for it. That man is a machine. An absolute machine.
But your name is still on the program, probably at least in terms of age, right?
In any case, yeah, of course.
How many vertical meters do you do? I mean, what do you calculate? What's your average per hour?
For 1000 meters of elevation gain, it's 45 minutes now. So I've gotten slower, compared to before.
What do you mean by "before"? Earlier this year or many years ago?
It's like, I am, I can say it exactly, I know it exactly, I ran the Watzmann in 2 hours and 10 minutes at 25, and now I need 2 hours and 25 to 30 minutes.
But that's still quite a lot. Or actually a very small amount. So it's a great time for your age, right? Normal
it takes 7 hours, yeah. Already, yeah. I don't think there are many who get onto it that quickly at my age.
And what do you enjoy most overall? Is it more the climbing up or the flying down?
Well, those are two different things. Flying is just, wow, beautiful, and there's also some adrenaline involved. And hiking up is just flow. Yeah, at some point when you're mountain running, you get into the flow, and it's just like a drug.
And when you're at the top, can you just head out right away, or do you need half an hour first to say, I need to come down, and only then can I fly properly?
By now, I can take off right away because I don't always go full throttle anymore. Every now and then I think to myself, I'll back off a bit, because whether you're up there 10 minutes earlier or later doesn't matter at all.
And one last question, specifically regarding the flying. Has your flying style or technique changed at all because of the fact that you've flown so much this year? Completely.
Completely. Before that, I probably had no idea how to fly.
Even though you say you've been flying for 30 years, or rather, paragliding for 30 years.
I think I have about 4,000 flights in total, but more than 2,000 of those were with the power kite. But it's, how should I put it, it's now... I did an SIV training years ago, and after that training, it became clear to me that you couldn't, basically couldn't fly before. And the same thing has happened again now. I'd say that before the 343, I had much less idea about flying and I didn't feel a hundred percent confident. I know that now.
What's the core realization, or where would you say the knot in your brain finally untied, where you're saying, "I'm really flying completely differently now"? That...
The feeling for the glider. Just the feeling. It's completely different. I feel it now. I can't really explain it, but I'm one with the glider now. I wasn't before.
And that's also basically the basis for why you can say you can still fly really safely under so many different conditions. Whether that's actually safe, let
...how it's presented, but I'm doing it at least.
Alright, Peter. I'll just say, let's make sure it stays safe. That you'll also make it back to earth safely for the rest of the flights you have lined up. I wish you good weather for the next few days until the end of the year, so that the 365 can be fully completed. And if they don't get filled, you'll probably make sure to fill them next year anyway. And thank you for telling us about your great project. You're very welcome.
That was Peter Renner in conversation with Lucian Haas. If you want to learn more about the Project 365 Hike and Fly and watch some of the flight videos, I recommend taking a look at the associated website. The address is www.365hikeandfly.com. You can also find a link there where you can help Peter get a little closer to his self-imposed fundraising goal for UNICEF. Additionally, Peter asked me to point out another offer of his, which I'm happy to do. Peter Renner offers tandem flights. You aren't obligated to hike up the mountain with him, but in the end, you can glide down with the good feeling that a portion of the flight price also goes to the good cause of UNICEF.
Thanks for listening, and I'll say ciao until next time.