Basically, I'm proud that I managed to do this, looking back at all the knowledge I had to acquire, and that I also managed to pass the exam. I'm already proud of that, yes, yeah, yeah.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Daniel Mignot and Lucian Haas at the microphone.
You can do paragliding well into old age, provided you have a certain level of physical fitness. There are many examples of pilots who still regularly take to the skies in their seventies and even successfully fly cross-country. But to only start paragliding at that age is quite extraordinary. The Swiss pilot Daniel Mignot from Interlaken did exactly that. At 73 years old, he got his paragliding license. Why he only started so late, what he experienced during his training among the many younger classmates, how he dealt with nerves during the exam, what he pays attention to during his solo flights today, and what he still dreams of flying—Daniel tells all of this in this fortieth episode of Podz-Glidz.
It's a rather quieter story from the world of paragliding. But that also belongs in this podcast, which aims to explore the many different facets, styles, and characters of our sport. Before we get started, just a small reminder. Podz-Glidz and the associated blog Looglides can only exist if listeners and readers financially support my work on these projects out of the goodness of their hearts. Are you already one of the supporters? If so, I say thank you. If not, then consider whether what is offered to you here doesn't also deserve some recognition. You can find all the necessary information on how to become a supporter, a PayPal link, and bank transfer details on the Looglides website—specifically on the Support page. You can decide for yourself how much you want to give.
For those who are unsure, I recommend a non-binding guideline of one euro per podcast episode and two euros per reading month on Looglides.
Daniel, how old are you now?
I'll be 74 in December.
And when did you do your paraglider exam?
I took my paraglider exam on February 22nd of this year. Just before the lockdown.
So that means you were 73 years old?
Yes, and a few months, two months, exactly.
So you're a late bloomer when it comes to flying?
You could say that, yeah. Exactly, when I see my schoolmates at the flight school, I really am a late starter. And there are various reasons why I'm so late.
Yeah, tell me, how do you even come up with the idea of starting to fly at this age?
So basically, I love flying. And my wife gave me two tandem flights for my birthday a few years ago. And I did those too. Once, we were in Zermatt in the Dwerin. And there, she spontaneously spotted a tandem pilot on the cable car, and then she asked me if I'd like to go flying. So she went straight up to this tandem pilot and asked if he had an available slot. Then I practically went back down the cable car to put on different shoes, went back up, and did a second flight in Zermatt.
So I've done three tandem flights in total. And I've always... there are so many places in Switzerland where you can watch tandem flying. And I've always admired how these tandem pilots, like the golden eagles—those are the mountain birds—how they glide and gain altitude in the thermals. I've just always been amazed. And always said, yeah, I'd actually like to learn sometime.
Well, paragliding has existed for 30 years, even in Switzerland. Why did you take so long to do it?
Well, of course I did a lot of other things before. And I didn't live in the Bernese Oberland where I live now. I moved in with my wife ten years ago, or my current wife. Before that, I was in Bern. And Bern is basically flatland, of course, but you can also learn to fly in Bern. But I did a lot of other things back then. Mountain tours. Yeah, skiing, cycling. I practically had no other hobbies. And that's a matter of priority. And at that time, it just wasn't a priority for me, in that sense, yeah.
But now, I was actually driven into it by your wife, so to speak. It wasn't something you did on your own; she said you have to go flying now. Did she go flying too? She went 15
Years, no, 30 years ago, she was one of the first tandem pilots here in Switzerland. And back then I didn't know her yet and practically had an accident. And at that time, of course, flight schools didn't even exist. There were some designers who showed people how to fly. And that was just completely different technology. And then she stopped, right? But she had an affinity for paragliding, of course. And then she told me once, you're always talking about it, you have to do it too, otherwise it'll be too late.
How old were you when you did your first tandem flight?
Yeah, I was about 69, roughly, yeah, 69. So that was about five, six years ago, yeah.
Okay. And then you did these three tandem flights and said, okay, I still want to learn it myself. Why is that? You could have just said, wonderful, there are great tandem pilots who can always take me along. It's probably even cheaper for a few flights a year than getting your own license and all that. Why didn't you just stick with tandem flying?
Well, the motivation was also my wife's daughter, who has been flying for several years now. Yeah, yeah. And my friend, he's a tandem pilot here in Interlaken. So he's already done over 10,000 flights, and it was a huge business here in Interlaken, these tandem flights with the Indians and the Chinese. And they actually motivated me even more, I have to say. "Learn to fly, then we can go flying together." That was actually another reason why I said, okay, now I'm doing it, I've...
Did you have any major doubts in the meantime, before you actually went to the flight school, and thought, who knows if they'll take me and is this really the right decision?
So I went to the flight school where my wife's daughter did her flight training and spontaneously asked the flight instructor, can you still learn to fly at my age? And he said there's no age limit for flight students. Yes. It just depends on me. And so I signed up, did a basic course, and then the whole...
training. That means they didn't say, "Look, you're already so old, maybe let's do a fitness test or something first to see if you can even hike up the mountains with the gear or run down them fast enough or something like that."
No, they didn't. They are... very open here, and Bernd Erb was one of my flight instructors, and I did my basic course with him, and they always supported me, also in the sense of, well, I'm relatively fit, so I can hike up the slope well and jump back down. So in that sense, the effort, the physical effort, isn't the mental one; the physical effort in paragliding, if I'm not doing a four-hour high-can-fly, isn't actually that strenuous.
No, you sit in the chair and basically have to pull on some lines a bit.
Yeah, exactly. And for the takeoff, you have to do a ten-second sprint, right?
That means, from that perspective, you could say that paragliding is definitely still suitable for your age, at least if you still have a certain level of basic fitness. When did you start your training, and how long did it take you in total, from the first flight lesson until you were actually finished and had the license as well?
So I started with the basic course at the flight school two years ago, and that lasted four days, it was in September, and after the basic course, I signed up for the license course. Unfortunately, I had a skiing accident in December and dislocated my shoulder at the Schilthorn, and I had three tendons torn, so I practically had to interrupt the training at the end of December—I'd say about 20 flights in—but during that time, it also gave me the opportunity to learn all the theory, because that is also,
at least in Switzerland, learning all the theory is quite a lot of work, I'd say. And you can do the theory exam beforehand or during the training, and then only do the practical part after the theory. So, during the whole convalescence period, I learned the theory. Did you use that time for that? I used the time that way, yeah.
That means you had already done the theory exam by then and said, okay, now I'll continue with the practical training, with the high-altitude flights.
Yeah, that was actually never an issue for me after the theory exam. I passed that on the first try, too. That was in February. Then in the summer, last summer, I got back into it and did the 50 flights you can do—and have to do—to get your PPL in Switzerland. I then took the exam with about 75 flights.
Well, in those courses you took, there were probably other students there who were probably all, on average, maybe 30 years younger than you. How are you received as a senior there? I mean, I have to say,
It was just natural, they were all around 25, 35, maybe some in their 50s. But they always accepted me very, very well and were also helpful. For me, it was a very nice experience that there isn't any age competition among these paragliding pilots. If there's a marathon runner, then a young person simply runs differently than a 70-year-old. And with tandem flying, or with paragliding, I think it's not about physical condition, but it's also mental strength, how you handle conflict and so on, with critical situations.
And I think there are fewer age limits.
If you were there at the training yourself, you might compare yourself and look at how the others are doing, what progress they're making, how they're doing it. Were you able to keep up with the younger ones in some way? Or did you already notice, as an older person, that you're finding it a bit harder, maybe even getting certain motor skills back into your body at all, so that certain things have to be somewhat automated in terms of movement sequences, where you'd say, yeah, I've already seen that, it's easier for the younger ones.
That's true, of course. And that's the entire takeoff phase,
the build-up, that's still okay, but then the actual acceleration. And on some flights where there was a slight tailwind, where the younger ones just run faster and still take off, on some flights I said, after two ridge starts I said, okay, now I'm going down with the line, because I just couldn't accelerate fast enough.
In the terrain, in the terrain with grass and roots sometimes. And in those cases, I just gave up. So, in this acceleration phase, the base speed is obviously no longer there. And I just gave up. But that was never a problem where I felt like, oh, I'm a failure, I can't do this, or anything like that. That
That means you've already accepted that you can't do it. Is it still the case in that situation that you might feel a bit frustrated sometimes, and do you have to develop a certain level of frustration tolerance? Or how did you deal with that?
Yeah, so regarding frustration tolerance, I always had respect for a launch where I couldn't get off the ground or get away. Because here in Switzerland, I have a relatively steep launch terrain, and if you tumble down that slope, it's not exactly pleasant. That's why I always had respect for the gradient as well. Especially when the slope was quite steep, so that I had enough reserve. But frustration in that sense, yeah, sometimes I'd say, okay, I'm not risking anything, I don't have to prove anything anymore. I'll do it another time. And in the group and at the flight school, I have to say, I never, ever felt like the launch officer, for example, said, yeah, try again, you'll get off, and so on.
Was there a situation where the launch leader had to brake you and said, "Daniel, take it easy. Maybe you won't launch today. These aren't your conditions right now?"
Yes, there were one or two times where he shouted, "Stop, stop, stop." And then I aborted the start because he simply saw, from his experience, that I wasn't going to get away, in that sense. Yes, that's what the starter is responsible for, of course, right?
Well, you just said those steep launch sites were the ones that instilled respect in you, the ones you were always a bit cautious with. At the same time, on flat slopes, you have to run a lot more and might hit your running limits, perhaps in terms of speed given your age. Is there something you'd say is like the ideal launch for your constitution? What does that look like?
Yes, there is. And here in Interlaken, where we did our flight school and training, there's one—I can call it a favorite slope—where it's steep at first, quite steep, but it levels out a bit at the bottom, or where it doesn't just keep getting steeper. Yes, that exists. There are slopes, or launch sites, that I really like, and launch sites where I simply have respect. At
with this launch site that flattens out, it's more of a psychological component, where you say if I fall here, however I do, down in the flat area, I can basically roll out, something like that, or how is that?
Yeah, exactly. So, it's more of a psychological help, where it just gives me extra security for the start, and then I'm also braver and accelerate accordingly more, because I basically have a mental reserve, even if it's only psychological. What
What was the hardest part for you during all the training, basically? At...
the hardest thing for me, time and again, is the landing. I struggled with the landing for a long time, with... just standing it, standing during the landing. Specifically, for a long time I just didn't judge the height correctly at the right moment, where I then have to pull through, have to pull the brake. So this estimation of exactly when, and ultimately it's a fraction of a second where you really have to pull through. And I also noticed that if I can flare, so if I can approach for as long as a Jumbo jet and then glide over the ground and pull through once—I love the flaring.
And that's how it developed a bit; it gives me a sense of security, like, ah, now I'm near the ground but not quite on it yet, now I can pull through.
Is that something where you'd say, maybe this estimating of altitude, is that something you'd say younger people might be able to do better than older people?
Yes, I would say so. Looking back today, I'd say that younger people tend to have that experience of estimating altitude just more quickly in their heads, or that assessment of how far I am from the ground, or. Also, for example, in the landing phase, that I just get the right altitude now, so that I can make a clean landing.
Did you have any negative experiences or experiences like that during your entire training, like during any flights or something?
Well, I once had a landing in the snow in Grindelwald where a gust of wind jammed my paraglider into a tree. And then I had to get a ladder from the construction site to get the glider down. But basically, I haven't had any negative experiences in that sense. Because I am quite careful, considering my age, or I'll definitely say, okay, I'm not doing that, I'm not flying down, if there's a tailwind or a bit of a tailwind. So in that sense, I haven't had any negatives, well, once of course,
if I had a seated landing instead of standing, then sometimes there might have been some cow dung on the cushion. But nothing happened to you yourself.
Did anything harmful happen? No, no, no. You wrote a bit about your training in Swissglider, the SAV association magazine, and you mentioned there that you even had some mental training from Benzerb the day before your exam. What was that about?
It was simply about going through all those procedures with him one more time. And we had another flight school session back then. He knew the exam was coming up. And I just talked to him about what I should pay special attention to. And especially that I shouldn't put myself under pressure during the launch phase from the other exam candidates, who ultimately want the same thing as I do on the same day. And I then developed a bit of a strategy for myself to always be the first to launch.
You ride up here in a small bus for the exam. And then they lay it out. And I always laid out my glider relatively quickly, or always quickly. I went to the expert. I said I was ready and so on. And I think that took a lot of pressure off me. Not having to see, oh, he's already gone and we're down there. And practically, during these three flights, I always started first. And that also gave me a bit of security in the landing area. No one was down there yet, except for the expert who was standing next to the circle and watching with binoculars to see if I flew the figures.
And I have to say, that was a good strategy. Just being down there first as well. That
meaning, no time at all to let any stage fright kick in? No, no,
No. No time for stage fright. And I kind of pre-discussed that with Benz. And he specifically did his training now to minimize those stress phases on the airfield and to deal with that stress. How
How did your flying career continue after the exam? You said you took the exam just before the lockdown because of Corona. When did you go flying on your own for the first time again?
I took the exam on February 21st and went flying two or three times the very next weekend. That was still before the lockdown. And during the lockdown phase, my friend and I—with my daughter and my wife—just went out a few times for ourselves. That was also during the lockdown. It wasn't an absolute flight ban; it was just that there were no more commercial flights. Individual flights were actually never banned. It was recommended by the paragliding association not to go flying because of the risk of accidents, so that hospitals wouldn't be occupied with accident patients.
But we still went flying two or three times. And of course, it was in the terrain I know. Also the launch sites I know here in Interlaken. So that went very well. And then, I think in May, I really started flying again. Like, for myself. Go
Do you fly alone now, or do you always look for the connection with your wife's daughter, her friend? Or do you have other people, maybe even other older pilots, with whom you've formed a little group that you always head out with?
No, well, I go alone or then I go with the friend, the daughter, and her. We've already gone flying as a group of three. Or then I go alone here in Interlaken and ride up on my bike and park the car down below. And then I go get the bike or up to the launch site. So that's how I do it. And then I also have my peace. I'm alone and can just take my time, I have no stress. So basically, I also really like going out alone.
And then you don't have any stage fright or worry about being alone on the mountain?
No, I don't have any. I can really just be in my own zone, go through the five-point check, and really wait until the wind is good and then take off. That doesn't stress me out at all.
Many younger pilots, they want action, they want to do some agro or long-distance flights or something like that. What appeals to you about flying? What are your goals? I mean...
My goals are still hike and fly. I go hiking in the mountains a lot with my wife, and I just like to hike up and fly down. That appeals to me because, fundamentally, I don't like hiking down the mountain. And there are some mountains or hills here where you can fly down very well with a paraglider. And that's what appeals to me in the sense of hike and fly. But I don't have to run up as fast as possible or anything like that. So just enjoyment and enjoyment. And I like being in the air and looking at the area from above.
So in that sense, I have no ambitions to do anything in the direction of agro or whatever. Just enjoying the flying.
Do you also do longer thermals flights, or are they mainly glides? Because you say that's just the 20 minutes from the mountain to the valley, and maybe that's completely enough for you.
No, of course if I see colleagues or other paragliders in the thermals, then I'll fly there and enjoy the thermals too. Or the Sohren here in Interlaken. There's a certain shape, a rock face, that gets hit very strongly by the sun in the evening. I'll naturally look for where the other pilots are. And I also got this little device that shows you when you're climbing, or rather, it whistles. And then I follow the others. But in that sense, if I fly out to a thermal and lose it, then I can't find the thermal anymore.
It's not a drama either.
Then you're completely relaxed. Does it ever happen to you, now that you're enjoying flying so much, that you sometimes think, why did I start so late?
No, I've never had that. It just wasn't the right time. I don't regret not doing it sooner, either. I did so many other sports, and now I'll fly for maybe a few years, because that's also limited. I'm just getting older. But I'm not stressed about that; even if I had, it wouldn't matter. The past is the past and I live in the here and now. How much longer will you...
how long do you think you'll still be able to fly?
I'd guess maybe five years. There are two colleagues in Interlaken who have been flying for years. They're over 80 years old. They always come over to me when I land. They're often at the landing field in Interlaken. Of course, everyone knows each other here. It's a family where everyone knows everyone. So you chat a bit. But I've never asked anyone, "Can I come with you guys?" because I don't want to get in anyone's way or have them have to keep an eye on me.
That's why I prefer to go out alone.
But these two 80-year-olds didn't just learn to fly at 70; they've been doing it for much longer.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. They obviously have different experiences. I'm not comparing myself to them. It's more like having a beer at the end. In that sense, at the landing field, yeah.
If you look back a bit self-critically today, would you say that if you had the chance again—meaning, if you weren't flying anymore—you would definitely do it all over again? Or would you say that in many respects it was very exhausting and so maybe not?
Yeah, I don't think I'd have the drive to do all that again—the theory learning, the whole flight school. And I was also very well supported by my wife, Beatrice, who always said, "Go for it, go to flight school." So, I had the necessary support, of course. But as for doing it again now, it's still hard to say if I would. Now that I see how much effort it took in that sense. But that's history now. In that sense, I've done it. I've done the Prövé. And as for how long it's useful or valid—well, it's valid for life.
And in that sense, I don't have to
...fly until I'm 85. I don't feel any pressure about how long I can keep doing this.
If other older people come up to you now, or maybe you experience it sometimes, where friends of yours come and say, "Daniel, would you recommend this to me too? Can I do that too?" What do you say then? Or what would you say then? I don't know if that has actually happened yet.
Well, first of all, it's never happened. I'm very surprised that I've even done this yet. But in that sense, I would try to explain what the effort involved is. Then each person has to decide for themselves if they have the time for it all. You know, retirees are basically all over-busy, have a lot going on, and travel a lot. I've taken the time now to learn paragliding and complete the training. But in that sense, I would just lay out what the effort is. Then that person would have to decide for themselves.
How much time do you invest in paragliding today?
I'd say an average of one afternoon every two weeks. Or one
Hi. So it hasn't become dominant in your life, like it has for some other people who say they have to spend every free minute in the air now.
No, no. It definitely hasn't become dominant. And it's nice to know that I can do it. We also go to Ticino a lot and we have our home mountain there, in Locarno. I take the paraglider with me. Now, there was quite a strong north wind and beautiful weather, but it was incredibly windy. I never went flying. I enjoyed the beautiful weather. In that sense, I have no pressure to go flying now. I want to go flying. No.
Do you sometimes make mistakes while flying that you would say are related to your age and lack of experience?
It's about experience. For example, when I fly into the thermals and it starts to shake,
then I always talk to my paraglider for a very short moment. I have an A paraglider, so you just let go of the lines and basically nothing can happen. That gives me incredible security. I wouldn't upgrade to a different class of gliders either; I just fly this A paraglider, I'm very happy with it, and it gives me security. I just have to learn a bit about how to handle the air. I'm still learning. It's bumping now and it's moving. The air is invisible, after all. That's why I just have to look at my paraglider and look up to see how it's moving a bit over there.
But in that sense, it gives me a lot of security. That I've made a major mistake—luckily, that hasn't happened to me yet. With this A paraglider, it's also of course field-tolerant. You just said you talk to it. What
do you tell him then?
I say something like, that's good, now there's just a bit of turbulence coming, and then the ears move, for example, and so on. Or in between, I also do it for myself,
I rock back and forth just to repeat these exercises over and over again and I just say, watch out, now we're rocking, and then I rock with my glider. So in that sense, it's like a dialogue with the glider, and that gives me confidence. I don't speak to anyone else in the air and I enjoy the peace. And in between, if it shakes a bit, then I talk to my glider.
In these articles in Swissglider, your flight instructor, or one of your flight instructors, Benzerb, also writes—sort of like a little commentary—that he can't necessarily recommend that pilots over 60 start flying again, partly because of motor skills difficulties and things like that. What does that do to you when you read something like that and you know, yeah, hmm, I was already 72 when I started? Do you say, so for you, you see that critically, or do you say, is it more that you're proud of it, like, "ha, I showed him anyway"?
Yeah, well, that idea of "I showed him anyway" – I'd never have that, because I actually have a lot of trust in Benzerb, and he was my flight instructor back in the basic course, and in that sense, he always supported me, saying "you can do it." But I can definitely support the critical perspective. So, in that sense, I don't find what he commented there to be an issue; I can stand by that. Yeah, of course. I'm not 30 anymore, and there are certainly some mental or cognitive hurdles, or your reaction time isn't the same anymore, so I can absolutely stand by what he wrote there.
Do you still have
aviation dreams?
For me, no, I can't say that, those are still aviation dreams. Just maybe taking off from a higher peak once, and I've already done that as a tandem flight—our future son-in-law, who is a pilot, took me up to the Jungfraujoch once, and that's 3,400 meters high, and we did a tandem flight there. And that I might have to do a takeoff once at a greater altitude, not necessarily 3,000 meters, but of course knowing that the air is thinner and that it takes more speed to take off, so I'm aware of all that in that sense.
What I still want to do—and I had this, because of that skiing accident, I still want to do the starting, the flying with skis, I want to learn that because I just missed out, because I had my accident last winter and couldn't participate when the flight school went to Mürren with the skis, and I'd like to join them there and ask if I can go along, because it's not actually difficult, because in that sense you already have a certain speed on the skis, but flying with skis, I still have that,
I still want to learn that.
Is there anything where you've set kind of limits for yourself, where you'd say if certain experiences occur or certain things happen, where you notice, "I don't have the speed anymore," then you would definitely stop flying immediately?
I have to say, I haven't really thought about that yet. Yes, I think if I had any serious crash landing—I mean a very serious, critical landing—or if I had misjudged the wind conditions and maybe hit a tree or had a landing in the forest, well, that would of course be an accident, and for me, that would definitely be the end. But even there, I'm always higher than the other paragliders, even over the forests. So I also leave myself a certain reserve there, I build that in too, so that I can see where those flying under me are.
And that also gives me extra safety. So I don't have to fly near the tree line.
Are there things where you would say you have an advantage over younger pilots because of life experience or whatever?
Yes, I'd say that I don't have to prove anything, I don't have to prove anything to anyone else, like how long I've been in the air or how far I've flown, for example. I'm very self-contained when I'm flying, really. There are
are there still things that make you proud anyway? Yes
Well, basically, I'm proud that I still managed to do it. Looking back at all the knowledge I had to acquire and the fact that I actually managed to pass the exam. I'm already proud of that. Yes, yeah, definitely.
Well, Daniel, thank you for your story. Good. Thank you very, very much. You're welcome. I hope you'll get some more beautiful wings, in any case. Including the Skistart. Yes, thanks. And then I'm curious to see how much longer you'll actually manage to get into the air again and again. Okay. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Okay. Lucian, thanks. Thank you very much for the interview.
That was Daniel Mignot in conversation with Lucian Haas. The report in Swissglider about Daniel's training can be found in issue 5.2020 starting on page 40. There, the flight instructor Ben Erb also expresses reservations and writes in a comment, quote, "As a silver fox, I cannot recommend learning this sport at the age of 73 for safety reasons. However, there are exceptions. It makes sense if the person is above average physically and mentally for their age and possesses great endurance. Compared to 30-year-olds, the learning process requires a high tolerance for frustration."
For those who regularly listen to Podz-Glidz, Ben's Erb won't be a stranger. In episode 35, he talked about the human factor and sports psychology aspects, especially when dealing with launch stress. You can find it, like all other episodes, on Looglites and Soundcloud, but also on other audio catalogs like Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, etc. If you don't want to miss any more episodes, I recommend simply subscribing to Podz-Glidz in your podcatcher of choice. If you then also become a supporter of Podz-Glidz and Looglites, you'll be helping to ensure that many more interesting episodes will be released there in the future. Until then! Ciao!