That's already the case with normal paragliding, but with the X-Lives it's just a bit more intense. If you think about it, before you were a pilot and went on vacation and tried to see some country or a region, you'd walk through the city five times and only see a tiny fraction. But with paragliding, you only go to one soaring spot, take off once, and see it from above, seeing in five minutes as much as others probably see in one or two days. And it's the same with the X-Lives; you pass the lowest alpine pastures, lakes, hike up the mountains, walk through cities, and see everything from above. You're really getting to know almost the entire Alps very well by now, that you really know your way around and know what it looks like there, and yeah, the experiences alone are also something that I don't think you get in any other sport or at any other event.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Manuel Nübel and Lucian Haas on the mic.
For those who have been following the Red Bull X-Alps a bit more closely over the years, one name has surely caught your attention: Manuel Nübel. The German pilot from Kempten in Allgäu first took part in the hike-and-fly competition in 2015 with a kneecap that had only been broken months earlier and was patched with wire. He finished in a respectable ninth place. In 2017, everything went well, but shortly before the end, he had to give up due to heatstroke and an exhausted body. In 2019, Manuel finished fifth, where, shortly before Monaco, he literally flew over several competitors still running on the ground with a brilliant flight over unlandable terrain. This summer, he is competing again. The starting gun for the Red Bull X-Alps 2021 will fire in Salzburg on June 20th.
In the hour-long conversation we recorded in mid-May—five weeks before the start—the 33-year-old told me what fascinates him so much about these races. I talk with Manuel about the fun the X-Alps gives him, but also about his fears and how he handles the risk. We talk about what it's like for an athlete to become a billboard for sponsors and what he has learned from such extreme races for his normal life. So, it's about more than just the X-Alps. Manuel also talks about his youthful and rapidly successful beginnings in his flying career, his love for speed, panic attacks before flights, and why he would like to be a hooded crow if he were an animal.
Before we get to that, however, let me just give a small disclaimer. Lu-Glidz and Podz-Glidz don't just fall from the sky. As a professional freelance journalist, I put a lot of heart and a lot of working hours into this. At the same time, my independence is very important to me. That's why I don't finance the blog and podcast through advertising, hidden sponsorship, or fixed subscription fees, but solely through voluntary viewers. This is how I can receive contributions from my listeners and readers. Payments are easily possible via PayPal or bank transfer. You can find all the necessary data on my blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the Support page.
Manuel, what is a Knuffel?
You really dug deep into the archives for that one. That was one of my first self-built model planes. A small aerobatic aircraft. I was a bit younger back then, and maybe that's how it got the name Knuffel.
What do you mean by a bit younger?
So
15 years younger.
15 years younger than today, or were you 15 years old back then?
No, exactly 15 years younger than today, or actually even more, is what's striking me right now. More like 20 years younger. I must have been about 13 when I designed it.
So, back then you were flying models intensively. How did you get into model flying?
That's always been kind of a dream of mine. I started with model cars really early on—I'd guess I was about 5 or 6, maybe even younger—and I was fascinated by it. And then I really badgered my parents for several years because I absolutely wanted a model plane, because it was such a massive dream. I always imagined it as being so cool, just letting a plane fly completely free and being able to control it completely in three dimensions in the air. And it really took some years, but eventually they realized that it wasn't just a little phase of mine, but a serious dream, and they made it possible for me. And yeah, then I was in the model aircraft club and with other people I hung out with,
they helped me keep diving deeper into the subject.
You were a German youth champion again. In which discipline, actually?
That was Aeromusical, which means artistic swimming to music in the hall. That means you have a routine, I think two or three minutes long, that you can mix together beforehand, and then you have to perform a choreography, an artistic swimming maneuver, to that music. And it's all about being as synchronized with the music as possible. The difficulty level of the maneuvers is also decisive, as is the entertainment factor. And yeah, there are various criteria by which it's then judged.
Did you use your Knuffel for that?
Yes, I think... I've flown Aeromusical for several, I've definitely flown it for about six years, so I don't know one hundred percent, but in the initial phase, that was the ultimate thing, and I strongly suspect that I flew with that one too. In the hall.
...was it with music. Yeah. Then it wasn't really a big plane. How do you imagine something like that? It's probably terribly light, isn't it?
Yes, it's really extremely light. So it's a small model made of hard foam, which means it only weighs about 130, 150 grams. It has a small electric motor on the front and a small battery, and it's controlled over three axes, so it's fully capable of aerobatics and the motor has about three times as much thrust as the part weighs. So you can also climb vertically very quickly and, yeah, so there are basically no limits in terms of flight physics. It can do everything a real plane can do outside and even much more.
I already had a Podz-Glidz episode. That was number 45, I think, with Paul Seeren, a flight instructor who is also a model aircraft pilot. However, he doesn't do indoor music models powered by motors; instead, he builds special sailplane models that aren't remote-controlled but are set up so that they fly on their own—he launches them, but then they have to fly by themselves, so he can catapult them with a rubber band or something. They are set up so that they can basically center themselves in thermals and stuff like that. And he says he learned an enormous amount from that, which also concerns wing limitations and wing settings and so on. What did you learn from model aircraft flying that gives you something for paragliding today?
Yes, I'd say an extreme amount as well. So, the thing Paul did, I actually knew about that from model flying back then too. Those are free flyers. They aren't actively controlled; they're more technically set up beforehand and then fly on their own in certain ways depending on how you set them up. What I did exclusively was remote-controlled flying. And with that, it's like you're controlling it directly the whole time. And I have to say, I learned a lot from that too, because you actually know pretty well what a plane feels like—or what it looks like—when it's just about to stall. And even though you're controlling it with the remote stick, it's like there's some kind of connection to the plane.
And you know exactly, if I pull any harder, you can see on the plane how it, for example, sags or the airflow stalls. And through that, you get a feeling that you can then transfer very well to real flying. And of course, you've also completely internalized all the basics of flight physics. And yeah, so you simply already know a lot more than someone who has never done model flying.
So you've basically had your model aviation career there. But how did you get into paragliding?
Yeah, it was actually quite funny because I had a good buddy, Patrick, who I did a lot of model aviation with back then. I pulled off many things, many projects, over several years. And he came from the Swabian Alb and always told me he was originally a sailplane pilot too. I wasn't, because I was more from Karlsruhe, and there aren't many slopes there. And neither was the place where I lived later. Where I lived, in Babenhausen in the Allgäu, it was, let's say, only possible sporadically. But for him, that was his main background.
Gliding means flying models on the slope.
let. Exactly, in the ridge lift. And there were often paragliders nearby as well. And he had always told me about the so-called hang gliders back then. And one day he just showed up and said, yeah, hey, I'm starting paragliding now. And asked if I wouldn't like to join in too. And funnily enough, I didn't really feel like it at all. And he said, oh, I don't know, another hobby. I'd rather stick to model flying. I'm actually still having a lot of fun with that. And then he just started his training. And three weeks later, he somehow had his own equipment. And yeah, he had just finished the basic course and came over. And as luck would have it, it was just a good day that allowed for ridge flying in our area. And then he just hooked me up on some tiny little practice slope.
And yeah, it went really well. I mean, you could work on a few meters right from the start. Taking off. And that was the immediate moment I knew, like, I definitely have to do this too. There was no doubt left at all. And then I signed up for the course. From that point on, I was completely hooked and never stopped, I was totally passionate about it. That
So, since then, did you only have paragliding on your mind, or were you still flying models in parallel?
Yeah, well, it's like, of course, the main priority was really paragliding. I was still flying models, though. I also had a company that I lived off of at the time and had to fulfill my duties there as well. But it became, as I just said, bit by bit more of an obligation than fun. At some point, my heart was burning for paragliding and only occasionally for model flying. Plus, it also bit into each other a bit, since the fragile model planes I had constructed before—and that we also sold with the company—actually clashed with heavy paragliding equipment on vacation. Consequently, one or another plane got crushed during a vacation. And then, yeah, at some point it just becomes less fun.
And later on, and I still do this today, I flew these paraglider models by Sascha Rentl. And that's still something I enjoy a lot because you can try things out with them that you might not dare to do in real life. Or you can just fly around a bit at the airfield beforehand, do some acrobatics with the model plane. And you can also put them into the harness yourself. You can even, if you've already landed on an alpine meadow and then flown there with a real paraglider, because they are completely flexible and stable. I still do that today too.
How old were you when you started paragliding?
I was around 17 at the end of that.
You also started competing quite competitively relatively soon. You took part in competitions. By then, I believe you had already been German champion twice and were in the national team. Looking back at that time, what do you see as your biggest or biggest sporting achievements?
Yes, well, I would definitely say the first World Cup win was an absolute milestone.
That was in Turkey, right?
Yes, exactly. And yeah, that went over five days. So, winning a competition with one task, that's still doable. A lot of luck can be involved there. But it was five good tasks that we flew. Of course, luck is still involved. You don't have to kid yourself about that. But it was just really cool to actually win a complete competition like that. Yeah, that. And then with the Hike & Fly, definitely, I'd say, coming to Monaco is already such a big milestone. I don't know what's bigger now, coming to Monaco for the first time or the second time. And then finishing in fifth place now, I don't know. Monaco was always the goal.
Monaco is now, of course, okay, Red Bull X-Alps. That's where we are now with the topic of what's naturally at the top of your list again soon. In June, you're starting the Red Bull X-Alps for the fourth time. In an interview in DHV-Info, the last one that just came out, you said—I'll just quote you—you don't do the X-Alps for the money and the fame, but because you don't have that much money. So why? I mean, what is your motivation for participating in a competition like that?
So at the beginning, I'd say it was maybe the motivation, or largely the motivation, that it's simply the biggest paraglider hike & fly competition there is, and that it simply poses the biggest hurdle or the biggest challenge to oneself. And it also starts in training, really pushing through the endurance routes for over a year beforehand. Yes. It's endurance training where some people really can't imagine how much work that actually is and how much perseverance you really need there. Right up to—or actually starting with—the decision, because everyone who deals with the X-Alps, every pilot knows what can come your way and that you can simply end up in situations where you need extremely good nerves, an extremely strong mindset, and extreme, yes, decisions have to be made.
And yeah, when I actually signed up in 2015, it took me three tries. I mean, I didn't sign up, I just decided in my head that I was going to do it. And then I'd think again, oh no, oh no, whenever I heard some stories about people falling asleep mid-flight or somehow flying backwards into a storm, fleeing from the storm, or something like that, I'd think, no, why are you putting yourself through that? No, come on, that's way too dangerous. I'd stop again. Then a few months later I'd think, oh come on, you really have to do it. You've got this. And then I'd back out again. It was only on the third time that I said, okay, and now I tell everyone immediately so that I can't back out anymore. And I only really realized what the X-Alps are during my first participation. And because of that, it's... it's actually become something else for me, maybe.
So at the beginning, it was really just this intense sporting competition, ambition and, yeah, just the competition. And then, through this experience of competing, it became more about the experience and the adventure afterwards. Because, well, the time was really so intense in all the episodes. And just the impressions, they completely blow any imagination out of the water. And also just the fun or these positive impressions you can take away with you afterwards and during the race. That's why I do it again every time. And, yeah, of course there's still a sporting ambition involved. Definitely. But, yeah, I wouldn't say that I approach it in a less athletic way now,
In the later episodes. But the motivation also comes more from other areas where, let's say, the sporting side isn't the only deciding factor.
You just mentioned fun. What exactly is the fun for you in the X-Alps?
Yeah, I don't know if "fun" is maybe the best word for it, but yeah, I'd say it starts as soon as the race begins. You think to yourself, yeah, finally, all this organization time, training time is over, finally starting to run. And then I do the whole race. You run through beautiful areas. You run up mountains. Sometimes you have peace. You have your team. You also have hustle sometimes. You have to work with your team, in the air. You can battle with others, yeah, measure yourself, feel the speed, tactical decisions, yeah. All of those are things that I enjoy extremely much. Then, of course, the impressions, the successes, and actually the defeats too. Like, right now, for example, if you were on the ground and did something wrong and then get back up again, those highs and lows are all emotions that somehow shape you and, in the end, definitely give you a lot.
Mhm. There's such an enormous intensity involved. Yes. I mean, you feel that intensity of life because you've compressed everything into two weeks. From, yeah, like you said, the highs and lows and everything in between.
Or also, for example, that you just—well, that's already the case with normal paragliding, but with X-Alps it's just a bit more intense. If you think about it, before you were a pilot and you went on vacation and tried to see some country or a region, you'd walk through the city five times and only see a tiny fraction. But with paragliding, you only go to one soaring spot, take off once, and see it from above, and you see as much in five minutes as others probably see in one or two days. And, uh, with X-Alps it's also like that: you pass the lowest alpine huts, hike up the mountains, walk through cities, and see everything from above, and you're really getting to know almost the entire Alps very well by now, that you really know your way around and know what it looks like there. And, yeah, the experiences alone are also again
what I think you just don't get in any other sport or at any other event.
Fun can turn into something serious, too. So, what about the risk with an experiment like this? How do you deal with that?
Yeah, how do I deal with it? Well, in principle, I'm the type of guy who has more fear than necessary, I think. So, I sometimes have these blockages, and in the past, it was really extreme or intense, in any case, that I actually knew I could do many things and, actually, when I thought about things logically and rationally, there really were no reasons to see an increased danger. But still, every time I got into the situation where I had to do it or something, that inner fear just prompted me to make a safe decision. And sometimes it was maybe a bit too safe, or what does that mean, too safe might not exist, but like, where you then think afterwards, when you're standing on the ground, oh man, now all the others are flying on again and there actually was no reason to have such fear.
But still, I think in hindsight, or generally speaking, that it's not actually a bad thing, because it simply prevents—or rather, protects you from—ending up in dangerous situations too often.
And fundamentally, I'd say that the more routine you have,
yes, the more confident and clear you can become in making those decisions and assessing what you're doing right now, how well you're doing it, and how much risk you're exposing yourself to.
Well, there's certainly a danger with the X-Alps because everyone pushes each other somehow, and then you dare to go flying in certain weather conditions, and with strong wind and all that, someone says, "Yeah, he's still flying, so I should too, otherwise he'll totally leave me behind," and stuff like that. How often, at least looking back at the previous X-Alps—you've done three now—how often did you feel like you were going over your own limits? Where you'd say, "I wouldn't do this now," but you just block it out, like "I have to do this here."
I'd say, actually, I can't think of any situations off the top of my head where I pushed past my limits because someone else did.
What definitely happened with the X-Alps, which I can say for sure, is that I pushed my limits without wanting to. For example, that was back in 2015, when I just didn't know the Southern Alps in France that well. Yeah. And on top of that, it was an extremely intense day. And yeah, I just flew into one of these little traps where, in hindsight, it's totally logical that there's a very strong valley wind nozzle there. And I was just consistently flying backwards at a peak of three kilometers, it was 38 km/h backwards. Okay. And that's certainly something where you'd first think, wow, completely over the top, 38 km/h backwards, there's not much control left. At that moment, it was actually a relatively safe situation.
I didn't have much fear or panic in that situation, for example, because I actually saw pretty quickly, okay, there are large meadows behind me, which is a big safety factor there. And the day before, I also—that was also in the French Alps—where I also got into very strong valley winds. And in the days leading up to it, you just learned to read very well how much wind is on the ground. And so, when I went so fast—it happened in a flash, from flying forward to flying backward—it lasted for a few seconds or a few minutes. But then I quickly looked at the ground and already saw that the wind on the ground isn't so tragic that I'm going to land completely uncontrollably, but I was able to assess it like that. And that's how it was, I landed almost standing, and in the end, I just made sure that I didn't miss the meadow behind me.
I basically spiraled off before the meadow and landed safely there. But I'd rather say that I didn't consciously accept that—I mean, I didn't consciously accept it—but it can always happen because you're dependent on the weather and nature. Or other pilots, very good ones too; Kriegel told me, for example, that he once had an 18-meter sink rate, 18 meters per second, which sounds completely crazy. Gavin McClurg had it that day too, in that same ballpark. And you imagine that as being extremely intense. And yeah, you don't really want to get into that, but sometimes it just happens. And exactly,
that's maybe a bit of the residual risk that plays a role, even if you stay extremely true to yourself.
You also crashed during that race back then—not completely, but you ended up crashing in the end. But that wasn't during this flight where you flew backwards.
No, that wasn't during that flight. Ah yes, that's a good example maybe. That was a situation where I probably wasn't true to myself, actually. What do I mean by not true? Well, that was when I clearly knew, just before I crashed, that I wasn't listening to my logical mind anymore—which, for those who don't know, was just before Monaco, I could already see the sea and some cirrus clouds were coming in a bit, and I could still turn nicely on a ridge and wanted to fly over one incision, over another. And suddenly, all of a sudden, I hit some pretty strong wind, and in the beginning, you know that from paragliding, you've experienced it many times that you hit wind and suddenly it starts moving forward again and glides better.
and it just kept getting worse, and eventually came the point where I secretly already knew, oh oh, I don't think I'm going to make it over the ridge, but it was extremely important for me. And instead of drawing that conclusion and saying, okay, it's not happening, I know it now from my gut feeling, I wanted to force it in that moment. And I thought, ah, it has to work now, so close to Monaco, if I fly back, I don't know if I'll catch the thermals again and then I'll be way behind, and if I make it over the ridge now, it will help me extremely much. And yeah, I thought that for about five seconds, and then I knew, okay, it's definitely not happening, I have to turn around now. And it was those five seconds that made me lose so much altitude that I didn't make it.
I turned around and was suddenly trapped in this high plateau and realized it was getting extremely tight. So, all of this happened, let's say, very quickly, and the high plateau was like several hundred meters, and I'd say I couldn't get out of it by more than ten or five meters. So it wasn't like I was stuck for kilometers, it happened extremely fast, but nonetheless, I would say, reflecting clearly in hindsight, that for those five seconds I actually knew I was making a mistake and wanted to force it. And consequently, I made a mistake there as well.
Does something like that hurt your ego? Like, do you end up hanging there in the tree thinking, "What an idiot?"
Yeah, I wouldn't say it hurts my ego, but I definitely thought, "What an idiot," quite clearly. Of course, you're angry at yourself, but personally, I don't really judge myself for it because there are so many decisions to make and I'm actually very happy with how I usually make them.
And for me, it's more about learning from those decisions, analyzing them for myself, and admitting that it was just stupid to try and force it for five seconds, so that I can do it better in the future.
With something like X-Alps, when the two weeks go by and you're running and flying every day, you're constantly making new experiences. So, you probably also find yourself in flight situations where you think, okay, I've never been in this specific area before, or maybe in air masses that I never dared to fly into before, with certain wind speeds. You're constantly learning so much new stuff. At the same time, you always have to keep moving and might not actually have the time to process it all immediately or to reflect on it.
Do you take some time after something like a Red Bull X-Alps to say what you actually experienced there, to go through it all again and process it? Or are they just experiences that stay in the background, slumbering in your subconscious, and might pop up again sometime and you'll say, "Oh, I've had something like that before"? Is that the kind of experience that just sits somewhere in your gut feeling?
I'm not the type of person who does a lot of mental coaching—even back in school, I was never one who enjoyed writing things down or anything like that. I loved it when I just got a script and could learn it by heart. It's somewhat similar with paragliding. I don't think I'm the type to say I'm definitely an extremely reflective person. I think about many things very often and give them a lot of thought. So, it's not like all those experiences just disappear into the bottom drawer or the subconscious at some point. But I don't do it as actively as you might imagine, like having a meeting with your supporter to write down all the mistakes or something; rather, I think about them and maybe discuss some things with my supporter,
but I just think about them for myself and pick out the important points where I think there's room for improvement, and then I try to actively address those and talk about them specifically and analyze them as well.
Did you have any experiences back then that stuck with you for a long time? You know, sometimes there are traumatic or other experiences where it keeps coming back to you over and over again. You're still thinking about a different solution you could have found for a certain situation or something like that. Is there anything in your X-Alps experience where you'd say, yeah, that occupied me for quite a while?
Let me think, what could there be? What stuck with me for a long time was probably having to give up in 2017 because I'd had issues with heatstroke and maybe nutrition and stuff beforehand, and I was actually in a really good phase of change. Because I was in a good position and actually close to the goal on one hand. But on the other hand, it was also good because what came next wasn't nice from an athlete's perspective anymore. It was running or stable flying in Piedmont with snails and other stuff that isn't fun. So, from that perspective, yeah.
But did you still experience that as a defeat, because you're giving...
did? No, no, I didn't. I didn't really experience it as a defeat, but yeah, specifically the year 2017. In 2015, we had a phase—I did it for three years with one of my best friends, Schini, and Josi. And in 2015, we had a phase where we were bickering with each other a bit, which is of course, I think, completely normal in racing actually. I mean, you don't have to overdramatize it now, but it did of course cloud things a bit,
that experience. And 2017, and also 2019 afterwards. But 2017 was the first year where everything from the whole team just flowed perfectly. It was just a brilliant experience. Everyone just gave each other their best time. And yeah, from that perspective, it wasn't a defeat, but a really cool time.
Let's touch on another aspect of the X-Hypes. The X-Hypes are such a huge celebration for the scene, but in the end, they're also a massive marketing event. Does it bother you that, fundamentally, you're also putting a lot of money down to serve as advertising space for others?
So, to answer your question specifically, no. Because I have my own advantages from it too.
It doesn't really bother me that much. And in principle, with all my sponsors until now, it's always been like this: I've only ever had sponsors that I could stand behind one hundred percent. And yeah. And I actually see it almost differently. I think to myself, I'm a person who likes to share my knowledge and my nice things, let's say. And if I have something cool, I've already shared it with many people many times and posted some things and said, hey, look here, this is a cool product because I liked it. And if I get paid for that, then in that case, it's actually a nice thing.
Some things, when they get so unauthentic... well, of course you're not forced into it, but you also have to do photoshoots for all the official partners of the X-Alps, with whom you don't actually have anything to do directly. Yeah, there always has to be a car or
at least last time, there was always a car in some curve in every picture, you always had to have the car standing there and so on.
Right, yeah. So it's annoying
As an athlete, you sometimes just say, I'm a sportsman right now, I have to perform, and then I have to position myself at the right angle to the light or something. Just so the car looks good from the back. Yeah.
Well, it can be annoying, definitely. Luckily, the camera teams always have a good touch and don't penetrate you too much with their shot ideas during the race. And that's clear, during the race it's different than before the race, because before the race you have time, but during the race, the race is what actually matters. It can be annoying, but it's never been so bad that it's caused me to lose all the fun.
This year's X-Alps is something special just because they have a completely new route. It doesn't end in Monaco anymore. The classic, traditional finish in Monaco is gone, where everyone used to say, "I really want to reach Monaco." For you, at least in terms of the initial idea—who knows what the experience of the whole route will be like in the end—did that take away some of the appeal, or is it actually a new appeal because it's different now?
Yeah, that's a good question. And it's also kind of a process. But at the beginning, I was actually really disappointed because I thought, it's called Red Bull X-Alps. X actually stands for Cross-Alps, I think that was the original idea. So, across the Alps. And it's not really across the Alps anymore, but more like through the Alps and back again. And yeah, on one hand, you have to say that Monaco is very glamorous, and it's nice with the promenade, but after one or two hours in Monaco, really, it doesn't take longer than that, you're fed up. It's expensive down there. It's also really very one-sided. So maybe, if you had a lot of money right now, you could go on a big shopping spree there.
But if you've jumped into the sea a few times and played another round of volleyball down there, it eventually just gets boring. And from an aviation perspective, not much happens there anyway. It's extremely hot in the hinterland. So if you're not lying right by the sea, it's hot. And yeah, from that perspective, you actually want to move relatively quickly. As a pilot, you're quickly gone again. And even just getting there, purely from an aviation standpoint, is always, I'd say, a bit of a thrill. So it's not like... of course, it can have its appeal. Especially these French Southern Alps and specifically the foothills. So 100 kilometers before Monaco, it starts with really smaller mountains and so many wooded valleys that are sometimes completely unlandable.
Yes, it has an appeal. But at the same time, it also has a repelling effect. And yeah, in principle, I'd say I'm already looking forward to the race. It's something new. I'm excited. The positive effects I would mention would definitely be, well, if Corona weren't a thing or who knows what it's like by the time we reach the finish line. But if I imagine that when you land at the finish and all your best friends and a huge paraglider community are waiting for you, and maybe there's a concert in the evening or something, that's of course a really great idea for me too. So that's what it does, on one hand, I'd say that the lack of Monaco takes something away from the competition, because it just doesn't go over the entire Alps anymore. On the other hand, I think it can add something if the whole thing is just a bit bigger or a bit more accessible.
designed, especially in the goal, where more events can simply take place than in Monaco. So
This year, Goal is in Zell am See. You can do some really substantial stuff there. And the entire German-Austrian-Swiss paragliding scene isn't that far away. So, it could become a really big event. From that perspective, maybe at least the end of something like Red Bull X-Alps will finally arrive where it actually belongs, at least from the scene's point of view. Monaco was certainly out of place. If you take the route yourself now, what are the sticking points from your perspective?
So, I think there's definitely a sticking point, going through it chronologically. It starts with the crossing over the Rhine Valley towards Sentes. It's just an extremely wide valley, over 15 kilometers wide. That means it's very difficult to fly across in many places. That's the first hurdle. Then there are places like the Oberalppass near Andermatt, where the Föhn breaks through and, depending on the weather conditions, where you have a north-south pressure difference, it can become extremely windy very quickly. The next point I'd say would be Dorn-de-Oche. Simply because I don't know that area particularly well.
That's the westernmost point of the entire route, right?
Yeah, I know, Mont Blanc or Dôme de Oche are at about the same altitude east-west.
And also the valley before that—I don't even know what it's called—that comes down to Martigny from Lake Geneva; that's also quite wide, though not quite as wide as the Rhine Valley. And then the big point, I'd say, is from Mont Blanc to Macanagua. So, basically, south of Mont Blanc, and south of the Matterhorn and the Monte Rosa massif, all the valleys are lined with very high slopes that are sometimes really impassable below 3,000 meters. And yeah, you'd have to manage an extreme amount of altitude on foot over a very short distance if it's not flying. And even if it is flying, it's not always that easy to get over there.
Well, the weather hasn't been that great so far this year, at least. There's still quite a lot of snow, even partly in the high Alps. Could that also become problematic for you?
Yes, it can definitely become problematic, but it can also have advantages and disadvantages. So, in principle, I'd rather the snow be gone. Of course, every now and then it's also an advantage if there are still small snowfields left, because then you can land in them and also start more easily. But honestly, I actually thought that two years ago was the worst year regarding the snow. But yeah, right now, if you look at the weather forecasts for the next ten days, it looks really horrific. And yeah, it should slowly start getting a bit warmer and the sun should come out so the snow melts, because otherwise it might really be significantly more like two years ago.
And if you take the weather into account now, but also the whole Corona period and all that, did that affect you, or did it maybe affect the other athletes just as much? Do you think it was a handicap in the preparation as well?
Yes, definitely. I mean, regarding Corona, we're still relatively privileged if you live in the Alps or something like that. But other athletes who would have liked to check out the routes in the Alps in the spring—that just wasn't possible due to the border restrictions. From that perspective, they obviously had a big disadvantage. And us too, yeah, there were no competitions, which is always very important for me just to get some warm-up and get back into it. That was missing. And route scouting was also definitely extremely limited due to the bad weather.
Is Google Earth a classic bad-weather program for you, where you always check the route, or do you not do that much? Well,
Yes, of course. Google Earth in combination with airspaces, Skyways, and stuff like that for planning is very important and helpful. But what also helps, especially for areas where you've never been before, is a contour simulator. It's like a glider simulator and it has really photorealistic scenarios. And you can fly a lot of paragliders with it. So, especially Ferdi Vogel, Erik, Jonas, and so many of my friends fly the tasks with me. And it helps at least to get to know the area a bit.
So that means you've already basically flown parts of this whole new X-Alps route?
Yeah, yeah. So basically, for all the parts I don't know yet, I just fly them several times in Contour. And then at least you know which ridges and which valleys come after which mountain, and you just get a much better feel for the dimensions, like in Google Earth, I think.
When you say you fly there with others, do you do it like a race and push each other? Yeah,
was clear.
It's not a Sunday outing in the Contour. No, no, we always do races there and, that's the second positive effect, the Contour simulator also really helps you improve your competitive decisions and it has some real parallels to actual competition flying. And you can see there, for example, that the good pilots usually win the task in the Contour as well and are also up at the front.
What I noticed this year is that Advance introduced their team pilots, saying they have ten people flying for them, and then eventually, weeks later, they said they have an eleventh. Manuel Nübel is also included. Why were you such a late addition?
Oh, for me, it was a bit like I wanted to keep all my options open for a relatively long time. That started with me—during the first years of my competitive career, I flew for only one company for six years, and I have to say, I was very loyal, but I really had a competitive disadvantage every single time for those six years, a massive one. As a result, I eventually said to myself that flying the best equipment is worth so much to me that, if necessary, I'll spend a bit more money on it, especially at other competitions where you don't normally get that kind of setup. And then for years now...
I didn't fly with a fixed contract. So I could basically pick out whatever products I wanted as the best ones, but I did pay a bit more for them, as I'd say, than someone who's a loyal company pilot. And I accepted that. And yeah, with these Xerps, it was like I waited relatively long, and actually because of Corona and production or material issues, many companies had problems producing harnesses. And yeah,
Ultimately, getting gliders wouldn't have been the biggest problem, but specifically in combination with harnesses. And yeah, pretty soon I actually—or what does "pretty soon" mean, I eventually—
I already noticed that and I also flew Michel Lacher's gear, who is a very good friend of mine. He's also a participant. Exactly, he also takes part in the X-Alps and I flew with his old one—the one from last year—the old harness and the glider, and it felt great right away, it made me feel very comfortable immediately. And I knew, okay cool, I have to make a decision soon anyway, and based on that and also his statement about the new material, I can really expect that it's not a shot in the dark, but very good material, and that there's a very high probability I have very, very good equipment without having test-flown it beforehand. And yeah, I've got it now and I'm super happy with the decision. Yeah.
Well, you've already experienced three of these Red Bull X-Alps races.
From your perspective, where did these X-Alps help you the most, as a pilot, but perhaps also as a human being?
Where spatially, or when?
Where, I mean personally, where in your psyche or as a human being, in which areas?
Okay, yeah, so what competitive flying taught me a lot back then—and it's no different with the X-Alps, I think I was relatively well-prepared for the X-Alps too—is that you learn to deal with ups and downs. I find that to be a very important life skill. That when things are going well, you don't get a high on it and completely take off. And also the other way around, maybe even more importantly, when things are going badly, that you also know it will get better again, and thus you don't lose faith and positivity. And yeah, especially in competitive flying, it's such a typical example that every competitive pilot has already gone through infinitely many times, is that maybe at the beginning of a competitive task
is doing great and flies ahead with the highest spirits, then a short time later gets stuck somewhere and messes up, and then the world collapses and you totally beat yourself up for flying ahead so stupidly, but then you get the chance again at the back—so you think the whole group and everything falls apart, the whole thing falls apart and the whole group flies over you and you're hopelessly lost, everything is collapsing on you, if you, let's say, have to take a penalty somewhere and everyone then maybe flies over you 500 meters above. But if you stay cool and don't lose your positivity and just believe in the good and also make good decisions and don't mess up again, but just don't get upset and instead just make the best of the situation, then you often just get chances again to catch up with the group and to be among the first again.
And that's just how competitive flying is, simply through the weather and various other factors. I think that's also a really important life lesson: that when things are going well, you might think to yourself, "Hey, maybe it's not normal that everything is going so perfectly right now," and store that away for when things are going badly. That way, it's easier to remember that there are also good sides and that they'll come back soon. And when they do come back, you might remember the bad phase and recall that, well, you couldn't even imagine it at the time, but suddenly the good stuff is back again. And yeah, that just helps you see the positive side of everything in life.
Are those also things where you would say, in your everyday life, how you live now, with your ventures—you're a part-owner of Tandem-Unternehmen and so on, which probably also had its difficulties with Corona and other things—are those things where you say, okay, I know there might be a low point right now, but...
So, I'd describe myself as someone who, even when things go really shitty and I lose my cool, can still stay relatively positive because of those experiences. Imagine...
Imagine for a second, you win the X-Alps 2021. Would that change your life in any way?
Yeah, it would probably change things somehow, because of course that would be a total scandal. No, maybe not a scandal, but it would be extremely intense and it would obviously go down in the history books in a certain way, that's clear, but actually I don't know if it would be that... yeah, I mean, if I imagine it right now, somehow, I don't even know if I'd find it really cool, somehow. It would certainly... it would certainly create some kind of pressure, and yeah, at the moment everything is so nice and easy without any extreme pressure, and I appreciate that. That means, but
Is it basically a scenario you don't actually expect at all? Kriegel wins anyway, right?
Yeah, well, I'm being realistic here. I see it as the fact that Kriegel is just extremely, consistently good.
and there are also others involved who are, let's just say, probably a tad better than me on average, but anything is possible, so you can't rule it out.
If you were to categorize yourself among all the different athletes and pilots participating, where would your best, your greatest strengths be? Where would you say you're really playing in the top third, top fifth, or whatever?
I'd say, well, definitely in the air and also not in terms of improvising, but with intuitive flying—let's say, if you were to throw all the pilots into a pot and have them fly somewhere where no one has ever been, I think I'd be right at the front. Because I'm very good at that, and yeah, it's very easy for me to read it that way and make good decisions without an extreme amount of preparation, whereas some other pilots might do it through endless hours of preparation; I'm more the type who... well, I'm not constantly improvising, certainly not, but yeah, I'd do very well there.
Is that something you're born with, or how do you get it—is there a way to develop that kind of intuition?
Yes, for sure, the more you fly, the greater your intuition becomes,
But I think that's kind of my type too. There are people who just have to plan and prepare everything perfectly and meticulously, and in situations where you have to improvise, they're probably more thrown off than people who enjoy improvising a bit all the time or aren't the most structured people, and yeah, they definitely find it easier to handle spontaneous situations.
I'd like to do a quick little interlude with you—we'll get back to intuition and all that in a moment—but as a short interlude in between, let's do a little creative game to define your character. Okay. And you can just tell me how you see yourself. If you were a car brand, what would you be?
Audi. VW, VW. Let's go with VW. Why? Because for me, that's like a Passat, which I also drive—it's just the right balance of
High quality, so just a product that doesn't fly off the shelves, meaning it's not cheap junk, but at the same time it's relatively affordable and very practical. That's how it comes across to me.
And if you were an animal, what would you be?
A seagull. A seagull. Because it's so playful and just flies wherever it feels like and however it feels like? Just a bit like that.
that too. They enjoy life, they're cheeky, they're playful,
Yeah, what do you have, no Dohle, they're completely free, yeah, they're light, they feel light. But does it have to be a bird?
Yeah. Okay. If you had to choose, which do you prefer? Slow or speed flying?
Speed Flying. Why? Not as the term Speed Flying as people know it, but I love the speed, I've said that many times before. I don't love adrenaline and I don't love stress or fear at all, but I love feeling the speed with speed. Whether it's karting or Speed Flying, or Speed Flying with a glider close to the slope, I just enjoy it.
Is it the speed or the G-forces that appeal to you?
Both, they go hand in hand, but I'd say speed comes first, and when you make a turn at a certain speed, you also feel the G-forces, and with the G-forces, you feel the speed. Both appeal to me.
What's the highest speed you've ever reached? With the paraglider. I once clocked about 120 km/h with a small Speed Flyer.
And with a large paraglider during a cross-country flight or something else?
You mean with a tailwind of 100 km/h. Where was that? That was in the lowlands of, I think, Petrajita, if I'm not mistaken. Spain.
That means you had 40, 50 km/h of tailwind and made good progress on the cross-country flight. Yes, exactly.
A question about that. My biggest fear when flying is?
Getting injured.
Have you ever gotten injured?
Not in paragliding.
That means you're a speed-oriented pilot and everything else, but also a very safe pilot? Or a safety-oriented pilot? Yes. How do you become a safer pilot? It
there are many points. So, on one hand, naturally through skill, and on the other through risk assessment. You can do it either way,
either by minimizing the dangers extremely or by maximizing your skills and thus being prepared for the dangers.
So you're more about maximizing your skills? No,
No, no. I mean, I'm really one of those people who... well, I see it with so many other pilots; some people just try things out, and while I think to myself about some things, "I need to be able to do this," I just have too much respect or fear to just give it a try. You might not believe it if you watch some of my videos, but it's really like that—maybe not in every situation, but often.
Are there situations where you'd say your fear actually hindered you? Or not physically hindered, but where you'd say your fear really stood in your way, and you would have liked to get rid of it?
Yeah, I'd say in the short term, yes, but in the long term, maybe not. It's like with aerobatics; I did it for years until I... I mean, I stalled over and over again,
I mean, there was nothing to complain about, no reason to be afraid, and every single time I had this fear of a stupid stall again, even though there was actually no reason for it. And that definitely held me back massively, especially with aerobatics, and it was similar later with other maneuvers where there really was no reason. I had two rescues, I went over water and so on, and I was still extremely anxious and approached things very slowly. In the short term, you think to yourself, what kind of coward are you, but in the long run, I think I just learned to let that fear in and also to say, oh, I know it's not rational, but I'm actually glad I'm the type of guy who is like that, rather than someone who doesn't think enough about things, because for so many people, that has simply led to something bigger happening eventually.
Do you have an explanation for the fear, where does it come from for you?
Maybe it's that I'm very attached to life, or that I really love living—I love life and I just imagine it somehow, like I want to live healthily for much longer, maybe that's why.
I also heard that you'd sometimes even throw up before flights because you were so excited or almost panicked about them.
Yeah, that's a very good example of where I actually hated the fear. That was exactly fear.
and excitement combined with just wanting to force it, and yeah, that was often such a vicious cycle during the initial phase of cross-country flight. I felt sick a couple of times because of the excitement beforehand and before the flights, and then you already know that for the next flight day and you're even more excited because you think, hopefully it won't be like this again where you can't eat breakfast, because then you can't fly for long, and if you get even more worked up, you can eat even less breakfast, and the next time it escalates like that, and then you maybe try to somehow give yourself some kind of kick with some Red Bulls or something before the flight, because now you know, oh, you haven't slept much and you've eaten little anyway, now you have to somehow psych yourself up for that one cross-country flight, and yeah, that once led to me actually feeling so sick at the launch site that I had to vomit, but yeah, I think it's actually like that for a lot of people, or more people,
that you deal with such fears when flying, because flying is just such an intense thing, just in itself, that I think it's completely normal for the body to show symptoms like that, whether it's a fear of heights or excitement or something similar.
There are also studies where they simply measured things like heart rates and blood pressure, for example, of pilots before takeoff and shortly after, and where even the professional pilots—the pilots—everyone still had this, well, in English it's called arousal, this state of excitement, which then also...
...stress measurement methods and such, it shows. You can actually prove it in the blood and the brain accordingly. Would you say that you've become more relaxed over time? I mean, do you approach any given takeoff much more calmly today, or does it still happen sometimes where you're like, I'm actually almost about to puke?
I'd say it still happens to me sometimes that I get excited or that I have this kind of fear that isn't fun at all, definitely. That I have to throw up—thankfully, I don't. And over time, through the routine, especially with tandem flying when you're doing several hundred flights a year, that helps extremely to feel comfortable; at least it's helped me a lot.
But yeah, the funny thing is, when you talk to experienced pilots afterwards, even during competitions, you realize you're not the only one who feels this way. And yeah, I can only tell anyone who feels like that not to beat themselves up over it. It's also really about this kind of or this
...criterion or characteristic, you shouldn't let it get to you too much; maybe you should just allow it, because I think it's just completely natural.
If someone came to you now,
junior pilot who says, "Look, I'm always so scared of takeoff or something, how did you get your fear under control? So what can I do? What would you recommend to him?"
So, in principle, I'd say routine helps extremely much, and yes, maybe sometimes they are even justified fears. So, if someone has had experiences that were really dangerous and maybe has a small trauma because of that, then I would just say, at
can work through acrobatics, flying helps extremely much in my opinion. Dealing with people who are better than you, and yes, there are different methods, competitive flying just to improve your ability to be. However, something that has already helped a few in the past and was very exciting, so I had several friends now whom I sent to a hypnotherapist who took away fears through hypnosis. For example, a friend of mine saw how her boyfriend got injured in a paraglider accident and hasn't been able to fly herself since. So she had a complete block, fear, and all that, and to put it briefly, after the therapy or after two therapies, she is able to fly herself again.
became a commercial tandem pilot. So, not just that she felt a bit better, but like she'd flown away from it. They also gave really great feedback about the therapist, and yeah, I think you can achieve quite a bit with hypnosis stuff. Have you ever done something like that yourself? Yeah, for something else. Training or something? I actually went to that therapist for something else, but unfortunately, it was kind of like... or what I mean by unfortunately is that after the initial consultation, I felt so good that when I looked at the actual hypnosis session I was supposed to attend, I said, "Look, I really can't tell you what my problem was back then. Let's postpone it, but I don't think I need you anymore." But even during that initial consultation, it really helped me, I'm convinced of that, and I already noticed that it's just like an animal explaining something to you, not some hocus pocus, and that the guy is very competent and serious. And that came from Achim Joos, by the way—the guy I actually went to, exactly, that therapist Ramadani in Ulm,
the hypnotherapist and Achim Joos—I don't know if you guys still know him. Flight school, Freiraum, and so on. Exactly, he was very early on, for a long time, and very successful with Olli Rössl, who is flying tandem with us now, flew for the national team, and he told me that they also had several people who went to him because of such fears. You can see there that even in the national team, something like that can happen often, and it's really not entirely abnormal, and that they had already had good experiences with him back then, and yeah, based on that, I sent the others there and they also had very positive experiences. It helped.
Let's look just a little bit ahead to wrap things up. Your big goal right now is the X-Alps, but those will be over by mid-July at the latest, maybe even a bit earlier. What comes after that for you?
What comes after for me? Tandem flying. Yes, it's been a long stretch here with Corona and, yeah, now the mountain lifts are opening and we'll probably be allowed to fly from May 21st, but in this final phase, I won't be able to do much tandem flying and won't be making much money, and since I've had a long stretch now, that means after the X-Alps I'll have to make sure some money comes in with tandem flying.
Gavin McClurg, who also has his own podcast Cloud-Based Mayhem, talked about how he basically fell into a deep motivational hole after the last X-Alps. He said the X-Alps was such an intensive time, both the preparation and the competition itself; you're so deep into the living and experiencing of it, and afterwards, he was like, "Yeah, what do I actually want to do now?" Have you ever experienced something like that?
No, after the X-Alps I did have a motivation slump where I didn't train anymore, because a different chapter just started for me. It also has the downside that I rarely, if ever, managed to train completely for two years; instead, after the X-Alps, I started tandem flying again a lot, did some more easy living like camping or stuff like that, and the strict training plan was no longer the priority. That's a setback regarding the training, but I never regretted it or anything, because there were just other things for me, or also with being self-employed—I still love working there, and I enjoy my work extremely much, whether it's tandem flying, organizing, and
Yeah, that's what was on the agenda after that.
What else do you have going on besides flying?
Yes, exactly, the company Vogelfrei, then Oh, but that one has
to do with climbing again. Oh, right, yes,
Okay, besides flying, that's right. So besides flying, I've really enjoyed bouldering lately, it's been extremely fun for me.
And my girlfriend doesn't fly; at the house, in the garden, with organic vegetables, since the last Corona, I've found a big passion for small plants. You grow
grow your own organic vegetables, what do you do then?
Yeah, exactly, in our garden and yeah, doing things with my friends too, like cycling or something—I think bike tours are great—also traveling sometimes, but then the paraglider is usually involved. Now, for...
...further, further outlook into the future. Imagine you're a grandpa one day and you have grandkids. Out of all the flying stories you've experienced so far, which one would you most like to tell them?
Hmm, well, I have a lot in my head right now, I'm just trying to think of which ones... it's actually a bit difficult to say. Maybe, one was really in 2015, where I had a patellar fracture four months before. Almost all the doctors, or at least many of them, said that I could never run 100 kilometers a day in my life because it was clear that these "back-slaps" in themselves—that a steel wire would remain in the patella—so that was a done deal for the race. And if you saw that on the X-ray, it was sticking out two centimeters from the front and back like steel brushes; I never would have thought in my life that you could run 100 kilometers with that. But I actually did it in one go during the race, and I just said, "Yeah, I'll make the best of it, I'll join in now to gain experience for the next episode," and then I just went for it full throttle. But I'm not going to let myself get ruined right at the start; I'm just making the best of it, and if I have to give up after one or two days, it's still better than not participating at all. And then I actually made it to Monaco, even in ninth place, which really...
exceeded, and yeah, it was actually a pretty cool thing that it worked out so well.
So, that's the story of how I got to Monaco over the mountains, 1,000 kilometers away, with a kneecap patched up with wire. So, yeah. Manuel, a very beautiful story. Thank you for your tale. Above all, I wish you lots and lots of success at the X-Alps, but especially lots of fun and, the top priority, stay safe. Thank you so much for the whole story. Yeah, that's the most important thing. And yeah, keep going with your gut feeling, lots of intuition, always in the air. In any case, have a lot of fun with it.
Thanks a lot, Lucian.
That was Manuel Nübel in conversation with Lucian Haas. If you want to follow Manuel's adventures in the X-Alps especially closely, then you should best subscribe to his Instagram and Facebook channels. You can find these and other links to the topics mentioned here in the show notes for this podcast episode on my blog Lu-Glidz.
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