The
The birds are having a blast, otherwise they wouldn't react like that, they wouldn't fly alongside me and basically ask, like, where are we going now? The birds are showing me that they enjoy flying, and they're also constantly watching me.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Walter Holzmüller and Lucian Haas at the microphone. Amy and the Wild Geese is a feature film from 1997. In it, a girl in Canada raises a group of young geese whose mother was shot by hunters. As a foster mother, she shows them their migration route to the natural winter quarters in the southern USA using a powered paraglider. Something like this doesn't just happen in the movies, though. The Austrian Walter Holzmüller has been flying young bearded vultures over the Alps to their winter areas in Tuscany for over ten years. The bearded vulture is an ibis-sized bird.
In the Alpine region, they had been extinct for three centuries. Now, a population large enough to ensure their survival is to be resettled there. And Walter is the chief pilot of the so-called Waldrab project. In this episode, number 67 of Podz-Glidz, the 63-year-old tells us about his approach. How he spends months getting the young birds used to following his powered glider trike, in order to eventually fly south over the main Alpine ridge in several stages. How he also circles in the thermals together with the Waldrappen to reach sufficient altitude at all. He describes how the birds fly literally within reach next to him and how the trust these creatures have in his leadership gives him moments of true happiness.
Walter is, of course, much more than just a migratory bird dad. He's a Gleitschirm-Blog through and through. In his flying career, he's done all sorts of things. Kiting and paragliding instructor, safety trainer, competition and test pilot. There's even a descent aid that bears his name in insider circles: the Holzmüller spiral. Walter also explains what that's all about in the interview. If you enjoy this podcast, you can support my work on it in various ways. You can help make Podz-Glidz better known, for example via links on social media or by recommending the podcast to your flying friends in conversations on the way to the launch site. Of course, you can also support Podz-Glidz and the associated blog Lu-Glidz financially.
You can find out how you can easily become a supporter without any obligation on the Lu-Glidz website, specifically on the "Support" page.
Walter, what is a Waldrapp? A
an ibis bird that went extinct about 200 years ago. And with us, the glider—meaning with us ultralight aircraft—they're now learning the migration behavior again. We fly with them into the wintering grounds.
into southern Tuscany. That means the birds aren't completely extinct. They still lived somewhere. But in our regions, where they used to live, like Germany, Austria, and so on, they haven't been there for centuries.
It's considered extinct because there are fewer than 200 wild birds left. That's why it's considered extinct. I can't say exactly how that works, though. Because I'm... I'm more of the pilot here, the one who basically... who shows the route. I'm not that well-versed in the nuances of how the birds live or how the thing with the birds works exactly. We need about 300 migrating birds and currently only have about 120. That's why the Waldrapp project will take another 7 years
take.
Fascinating. I find the hooded crow fascinating. They already have a very distinctive appearance.
Well, primarily. The first thing that actually fascinated me is the task of leading these birds over the Alps and over the Apennines into southern Tuscany. This task is the real adventure for me. Because our paragliders, our motorized paragliders, aren't really built for thermals. And we're flying 100% in the thermals with the
Hooded crow. Hooded crows are... So they hardly flap their wings? Are they mainly thermals flyers then?
Well, thermals are necessary to reach greater altitudes. Because with muscle power alone, they would run out of energy first. That means they wouldn't have the ability to fly to high altitudes. In other words, they couldn't fly 2,000 to 3,000 meters using just muscle power. They need thermals for that. But it's similar with storks and eagles. I think it's quite similar. They're also too lazy to gain altitude properly with muscle power. They'd rather look for
the thermals. But just to understand this properly now. First of all, you fly with a motorized glider, or rather, you fly with a motor trike. You fly in front of these bearded vultures and basically show them the direction they need to fly in. Or how is that supposed to be imagined?
Well, you imagine it like this: the birds are being trained. That means they have to get used to the aircraft first. And they also have to have the drive to follow me. Both of those things are done during training. The main figure here is the foster mother. That means in this Waldrapp project, there are two foster mothers who train the birds. And by mid-August, it's the point where the birds enjoy flying along with the motorized glider. And then we try to lure or inspire the birds to head south.
Because it's like in the demo. In most of the training, the reward is the food. That means if the birds fly along obediently, they get good food in the evening.
But how do you even get a bird to fly behind a motorized glider? It's loud, it's noisy, it doesn't look like a forest raven or anything like that at all. How does that work? Yeah, with training.
We usually train about three to five times a week. With the birds starting in June. That means the birds hatch in early April. And from June onwards, the birds are trained to the aircraft. And of course, it's important that the birds are having fun too. Otherwise, it wouldn't work well.
But when you say training, if you start in June, you're always there too. You come there with your trike and drive in between, up and down on the birds, so they've at least heard the engine. Or how does that work?
Yes, exactly, that's how we do it. First of all, we do training. The birds are first introduced to the noise. And to the glider, of course. And later on, we only launch 50 meters away. And then the birds have time to catch up. Even on foot. Or maybe a few small hops. And it keeps expanding like that. Until we're already doing 90-kilometer flights during training.
So, you just do circular flights then?
Exactly. In different directions. At different altitudes. We try to make the training profile as demanding as possible. In the last few days. Because during migration, they go straight over the Alps. Like over the Pfitscherjoch this year, for example. And there we need to go well over 2,000 meters. That's high alpine. And there we have to get the birds excited, to...
to follow. You just said it's also primarily about flying thermals. Can the hooded crow do that naturally? Or do you have to work with them using your motorized glider? Can you also show them where the thermals are? And that you actually have to circle in such a thermal to get up? Completely
It's not that difficult. That is to say, the desire to fly thermals is already there from the start. But you have to give the birds time during training. Or rather, we try to confirm the birds in these thermal circles. And then support them. That means the more the birds fly thermals, the easier it is to gain altitude during migration. But basically, they would do it on their own anyway.
If I read it correctly, you've already led such hooded crows over the Alps for the twelfth time this year.
Yeah, yeah.
How did you originally end up becoming the chief pilot for these migration instructions?
In 2006, the project manager called me. He asked if I wanted to present my aircraft. Because they were looking for an aircraft that could fly at a speed of 40 km/h continuously. Two-seater. And I already knew back then, aha, flying at 40 km/h with two people, only a helicopter can do that continuously. Or my motor glider -trike. Because back then I already had this special glider from Nova, which was oversized, a very, very large oversize.
Specifically, these 50 square meters. That's extremely large for a paraglider. And then we hang 390 kg on it. And then the thing flies in the thermals. Beautiful. That is, of course, assuming the handling is still good. And in this case, the handling is good. We can use the thermals just like a normal paraglider.
use thermals. Why did you already have such a large motorized glider back then? I mean, what did you need that large surface area for? What was the idea behind it?
Well, I think the idea was actually a bit of a mistake. Specifically, Hannes. Hannes and I wanted to build a motorized glider. So, Hannes's name is Hannes Papesch. Hannes Papesch, exactly. He wanted to build a motorized glider with 44 square meters. And when the glider, the prototype, arrived, we saw it was huge. It was way, way bigger than what the plan actually was. And then the thing was already flown. We then had to change a few small things to make sure it was safe enough. I can still remember that it had very poor inflation behavior.
And in terms of handling, it was a big challenge to get the thing to point in the right direction, because you need to do that for thermals. And we managed to do that. During that time, Johannes, Johannes Fritz, the project leader of the Waldrappe team, called me and asked if I wanted to present a wing. And I thought to myself, well, he's heard that we have something special. Then I told him I'd have time on Monday. He says, no, someone else is there on Monday. I ask, who's coming then? He says, someone from Upper Austria. Ah, I say, Hans. Yes, he says, Neudorfer Hans.
Then I immediately, you know, I know the scene and I knew right away, there's no way he can fly that slowly with 32 square meters. On Tuesday, someone else was there from Styria. I knew him too. And on Thursday, it was my turn to present my aircraft. And then we flew with the Waldrappe, with the older ones. And that worked well right away. And I then asked Johannes, well, did that help anyone? And he said, no, nobody managed it, the speed. Specifically, flying at that slow speed like the Waldrappe, namely at 40 km/h. He says, no, nobody managed it. So they were all too fast. Yes, and so I didn't just make my aircraft available for the Waldrappe project, but also my performance since 2006.
So in 2007, we flew the first migration.
But does that mean you've actually been making a large part of your flying time, or in some way, the Waldrappen available every summer since then? Because you have to train them first, you have to fly with them. And only at the end in August do you fly the big migration, where it's like, okay, now we're flying from Austria all the way to Tuscany.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, we usually split the training. The project manager and I—he also flies a second, identical aircraft. So, an Exciter with a Nova Big Max as well.
And this year, he had a collarbone fracture from mountain biking. So now I was allowed to do all the flight training. I mean, completely from start to finish. That was quite okay because we did the takeoff in Seekirchen. I didn't have that far to fly there. So in terms of effort, it wasn't that big of a deal.
And if someone asks you now what you do for a living, you say bird trainer.
No, no, I'm actually a paraglider from the ground up. But I also have a job in technology and in the ultralight sector—so in sailplane aviation—with the DULF, the German Ultralight Association. So I'm actually a bit flexible. Basically, anything up to 600 kilos, except for gyrocopters or helicopters, I don't fly. I have flown gyrocopters and helicopters, but I didn't enjoy them that much. I'm more of a thermals flyer. I have to feel the air a bit.
We'll probably get back to your other flight adventures and all the different things you fly in a moment. Let's stay with the forest magpies for a bit. How dangerous is it actually for the birds? I mean, you're out there with a motorized glider and a rotor. Have there been any hairy situations where they might have come too close to you? Yes, yes, there have been.
They come way too close every minute. That means you have to be incredibly careful because the birds learn that they aren't afraid of the glider or the trike. And now, there's actually no respect for the lines of the glider at all, nor for the propeller. We've protected the propeller with an all-around cage and net. That means no bird can actually get in there. But the lines of the paraglider are still exposed, and you can't really protect those. It happens every now and then—well, not this year.
But it has already happened that birds get tangled in the lines and then they stumble through and come out the back again and have to do a restart. No, just kidding! I mean, they just stumble there. But it has also happened that a bird got its feet tangled in the lines and then you either had to land or leave the pilot seat in flight to get the bird out of there. We have
we've done that too. Leaving the pilot seat means you stand up in your trike to get him out? Yeah, yeah. Isn't that also super dangerous for you? No,
The thing flies very stably. That means you have to imagine that the risk of collapse is somewhat smaller than with a normal glider. And because of that, you can safely let out the control lines once, for about two minutes, as long as the conditions are reasonably calm. And the riser gas lever, you set that to climb or to zero-slider. And then you can easily be away from the site for a few minutes, I mean away from the pilot seat. The thing flies very stably on its own then.
But you're not secured in any way, you're...? No, not then. You're basically just climbing around in your trike?
Yeah, you're not allowed to see it like that. So I just get on the pilot's seat or maybe on one of the struts. But I don't have to lean out very far or anything. No, it's not that bad.
On the project page waldrab.eu, I read that you said after a training flight this year that those birds were terrifying to you. Why? Because the birds were so...
flown as well as they ever have. We didn't have to abort a single takeoff. We didn't have a single... I mean, we did every project, every training session, without the birds...
forced us to train on Plan B or off-schedule, or to cancel a training session. The birds were just always there, as if they were so perfectly trained or disciplined. I mean, they really didn't cause any trouble; they did everything we wanted.
And that the birds fly along so perfectly, I could never have imagined that. Until now... I never thought it was possible for birds to work so well.
Why was it so good this year? I mean, if you've been doing this for twelve years now, or have done it twelve times and have been involved since 2007, maybe you've gained a lot more experience over time, so you can say my training now works much better than what I did ten years ago.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's for sure. But I think, primarily, it's going to be down to the Ziehmütters. That is, the training from the Ziehmütters will be the key. But as for exactly what it's due to, we don't know that either. We've been scratching our heads over that too. But it's definitely somehow down to the Ziehmütters, who just make the training so perfect.
...done so perfectly. Now you also mentioned flying over the Alps. You jumped over to the south at the end of the Zillertal this year... Yes, exactly, over the Pfitzschejoch. I read that you climbed up to 2,800 meters there. And I find this climbing part particularly interesting, because normally, when you meet powered glider pilots, circling in thermals isn't really familiar to them at all. And to what extent can you actually fly thermals properly with such a powered trike? Well,
that's exactly why, because I've always been fascinated by thermals from the ground up. And through many years of competition, I basically grew up with thermals. So for me, switching to this motorized glider trike isn't really such a big leap. Of course, I'd prefer to fly a paraglider without a motor, without a heavy trike attached, in the thermals. But if you fly a lot, you eventually get used to it and you start to feel a bit bonded with your aircraft. Besides, you don't have any time anyway. When you've got the birds with you, you don't have time to think about flying.
You just do it.
So that means it's really, you just watch out for the birds, and the rest of the flying is pure intuition? Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So I just make sure that there's some distance between the birds and the lines—usually, a distance of about 20 cm is enough, that's plenty. That's how close the birds usually fly to the lines, or to the glider, or even to me. The danger to me is non-existent. The danger to the trike is also minimal. There's always a bump every now and then, mainly to the front wheel or my thigh. But if the birds collide with the lines, that's dangerous. And in that case, I try to maintain a distance of, let's say, at least 20 cm.
or in the thermals, of course, even much more, because that introduces a bit of turbulence. So in the thermals, when we're flying, it just happens sometimes that the bird breaks out and turns the wrong way. And then it gets complicated if the birds don't all turn in the same direction.
How good are the hooded crows at flying in thermals? Do they regularly knock you out of it? At the end of the
Migration, yes, but not at the beginning and not for the entire duration of the migration. So, it takes them some time until they get really good at it. That
means they also learn from experience. Now, you're with your motortrike, where you say you have a 50-square-meter glider, which has a decent wingspan and probably also a relatively large turning radius, which is how it can fly these thermals at all. Do the buzzards then turn much tighter, or do they just follow your lead—whatever you're doing?
I don't know if the birds orient themselves based on me, but we have roughly the same radii. So the glider turns relatively tightly, and the better the thermals and the better the climb rates, the tighter you can turn, and then they... well, it's very harmonious. So I think flying with other paragliders is very similar to flying with the buzzards. There's no real difference. The turning habits are very similar.
The radius or the circle diameter isn't much different than with the paraglider. Do you have
then when motor gliding, do you also have a beeping vario with you?
Yes, I'd have one with me, but since the birds don't need it anyway—and since I orient myself to the birds when thermal flying anyway—and we usually fly near the slopes, like where we had the glacier next to us, over the Pfitscherjoch for example, I don't even get the idea to turn it on when flying without a vario. But if we're circling thermals in open terrain, then I turn it on, because I always have it with me and it's a huge help.
To what extent do the birds also help you in return when it comes to thermals? Do they sometimes fly ahead, and then you see them circling and say, okay, I'll join them now, and then they follow me again? Is that how it is?
A kind of interplay too? No, quite the opposite. The birds are rather observant. That means when we have a lift, the birds usually circle for longer and I've already flown off. And the birds then follow along. So they're more like the passive ones, who then fly off later. But that might also be because I'm trying to cover the kilometers we have in the program—we have a task to complete—and the birds would start loitering very quickly. And then I try to keep flying.
And the birds do one or two more circles and then fly along after.
How many kilometers is the total distance you're covering, roughly?
Well, it's 800 to 900 kilometers, depending on where we start. This year it was only 800 kilometers. And how many stages or how many days do you need for that? Five stages. And this year we needed two weeks. Fourteen or
fifteen days. That means five stages. But that means they're always day stages. That means you were on the road for 15 days, but ten of those were days where you had to wait out bad weather somewhere. No, not
First of all, a rest day is taken so the birds can get fit again. Then the strength returns. Yes, exactly. And then in Brixen, we had a north foehn where we actually started a test without birds to see if it was possible to take off at all, and we clearly saw that it wasn't, because the north foehn would have carried us south at great speed, but it was just too turbulent and the wind was too strong, so we didn't take off. So, that's how it is. We try to use the most favorable wind possible.
But if that favorable wind is too strong, we stay on the ground and take a day when there's less support. Or, if necessary, even a lighter headwind is also...
flown. Then at some point, after 14 or 15 days, you'll have arrived in Tuscany. Yes. In the target region, in a nature reserve, where you fly there. What happens next? Do you just pack up your trike there so they don't fly after you again when you fly back? Or do you say, no, it doesn't matter, I can also take off from there and eventually fly back over the Alps the same way?
No, my aircraft, my trike, has a trailer registration. That means it gets attached to the hitch at the back of the motorhome with a license plate and a light bar. Then a cover goes on it, and it's towed back home. So I only fly this route with the birds once. And the birds are then cared for elsewhere, where I no longer have anything to do with them. I'm actually only with the birds when it comes to the flying.
And what is it like for you, emotionally, to fly with the birds? Yes. What kind of feelings do you develop during that? The big...
Enthusiasm, I always say. When we fly after takeoff, I fly very, very slowly. And way less than 20 km/h, to make it as easy as possible for the birds to catch up. And when they're with me and they look at me and are basically asking, like, where are we going now or what are we doing now? That's a feeling where I just know, everything fits now. Everything is good. I did everything right. And on the other hand, of course, man, the birds are having a blast. Otherwise, they wouldn't react like that. Otherwise, they wouldn't fly alongside me and basically ask, like, where are we going now?
Man, are we flying again today? You know what I mean? The birds show me that they're having fun flying. And they're also constantly watching me.
Do they react too? I mean, do you ever have different moods where you notice the birds reacting to it? Like, can they see whether you're having fun that day or not?
No, no, no, no, no. I don't think so. For me, every day is a huge, huge emotional day. I don't think I've ever been in a bad mood on a flight day. For me, flying with the birds is always like Christmas, Easter, and I don't know what else combined. I'm always really, really excited.
There's no feeling of dread, no headache, no butterflies in my stomach. The world is just 100 percent okay.
Let's use this point for a small change of subject. You say that with flying, with the birds, your world is in order. But your aviation world has a long history as well. Actually, before that. And you've already experienced an enormous amount, also at other times. If I read it correctly, you started with kite flying back in 1980. Then paragliding was added relatively soon. How did that story actually happen back then? How did it start for you? The kite flying from the club.
I was at the judo club and the coach asked, "Don't you want to join us? We're going skydiving." I said, "Yeah, I'm in," during my vacation. But skydiving never happened. Now we've done a basic glider course.
And from then on, flying became an important thing for me. At first, it was just that I bought my own aircraft so I could do my first high-altitude flight at all. And so, things just take their course one by one. And I started doing competition because I wanted to learn. I wanted to get good. Not necessarily good, but I wanted to learn more. And I knew that you can do that best by measuring yourself against other pilots in competition. That was actually the beginning, or my big motivation in competition.
Take the Dolomitenmann, for example. I enjoyed it so much because I trained physically for that Dolomitenmann for a whole year. You know, when you do the Dolomitenmann, you have to run and also start quickly. I started with fast starts from having the glider in the backpack until the feet leave the ground in nearly two minutes. Yeah, that's insane. And I managed it. I managed to do it in well under 30 seconds. So from the glider in the backpack to the feet leaving the ground, I took less than 30 seconds. And that's the kind of stuff you do in competition.
And you'd never do something like that in civilian life. Just training the start, the takeoff speed, or even the running was important for me too. And for me, the big motivation was mainly the Dolomitenmann, keeping myself fit every year. Are you
an ambitious person? No, no, not at all. That means this competition flying that you did so early on, as you say, was really mainly this learning process, that's what fascinated you about it?
Yes, I can't learn as much anywhere as I do in competition. Yes. I didn't have this competition later on with sailplanes, or I didn't need it, because I had a flight instructor who showed me an insane amount, and he also taught me an insane amount even years after my sailplane training. I was still in contact with him, and then I started my aerobatic sailplane training. But after three years—no, after two and a half years—he told me I should finally take the exam, which wasn't important to me at all.
Flying with my flight instructor was more important to me than the
license. Now you just said you do soaring too. Yes. Where do you have a pilot's license for everything now? It started with kite flying, as you say. Yes. Then paragliding was added. Then you have a soaring license. Then you fly powered paragliding. Yes. And if I understood correctly earlier, basically everything up to 600 kilos that isn't a helicopter in some way. Ultralight, exactly.
Ultralight, yes. Yes, soaring,
Skydiving. Which type of flying do you personally like best or most?
Yes, that's a good question. I've been saying lately, and I've always said it, that if I had to stop doing all the aviation sports I do, only one would be allowed to continue, and that would be paragliding. That's the most important one to me. Even though I have a lot of fun with the other types of flying too. Gliding or ultralight is also incredibly beautiful, but
paragliding is the greatest. Why? I mean, what is so fascinating about paragliding? And do you mean thermal paragliding or also powered glider flying? Well, thermal
Paragliding, yes. Motor gliding is also fascinating to me. Also the technology, yeah. I have a small workshop at home and I like that something keeps breaking every now and then. And for me, how shall I put it, it's all very delicate stuff. I always say, a Honda lawnmower is much... is much higher quality than our flight devices that we fly. You know what I mean? I specifically said a Honda lawnmower because that's simply the king of lawnmowers, let's just say. But it has much more quality than the stuff we fly.
And that's also part of the appeal of motorized glider flying or even ultralight flying, because not everything is that perfect
is. So there's still a bit of adventure involved. Yes, exactly. At the same time, you just said that thermal paragliding is still, let me put it this way for you, the king's class in a way. Yes, correct. Why? I mean, what is it that's fascinating for you right now? Well, the
challenge, the thermals. I've always said, I have to go back a bit here. I've always said that the evening thermals, where there's a slight lift over a large area, that's what I like the least. I like the first thermals at 9 a.m. best, where you have to center really well and tight, where you use those thermals to gain altitude, for example, to land again. That's also something. Top landings. That's also a great thing for me. And for that reason, this thermal flying in the first hour of thermals is my favorite, not in the last, where everyone is up there
can stay. You know what I mean? It means you're always fascinated by these technical, well, flight-related challenges, where you have to have a very special, specific feeling, or where you have to know, how do I maybe get the glider to the edge of a stall, but knowing that I can still somehow milk this small, tight thermal out right now. And then that's the game. Yeah,
this game, exactly. And it was the same with gliding. Once it went really well in the late afternoon, I didn't enjoy it anymore. But I always wanted to be the first one out and then also at the top. And to stay up there. That was always important to me. To be the first one who can stay in the air. Without an engine, just in the thermals.
Especially when it comes to being first. I read that you also participated in the first edition of the Red Bull X Alps back in 2003. Yes. Rumor has it that was your honeymoon. Yeah, exactly. Was that really the case?
Yes, that was my honeymoon, exactly.
And how did your wife feel about this adventure?
Well, just like me, because we were active together. My wife coached me, so she...
was there with me. So she was your supporter in that case. Yeah, exactly. But did she also think it was great as a honeymoon? Or did she say, "Well, okay, I've married this flight-crazy man, now I guess I have to follow him on this Red Bull X Alps too."
No, no, we were completely in agreement there. We were 100 percent in agreement. That was also hers, it was probably equally important to all of us. What fascinated you about this task back then? Well, I wanted to know how it works, how long you just walk—I didn't know that. And how it works with your feet, with the shoes; that's also a long process, knowing what your shoes have to look like, what kind of shoes you need, for example. Or how you pace yourself, how long you walk, how little sleep you need—I didn't know any of that.
And what really fascinated me as well was when you're climbing a mountain at around 2 a.m. at night. Yeah. And in Verbier, there were almost 2,000 meters to do. And at that point, I didn't care about the time at all. You know, the time suddenly doesn't matter anymore. You keep going and it actually doesn't matter if you have to walk for another 3 hours or 5 hours up the mountain. You don't really care. And having that experience, that was a great experience for me too. It was completely...
a great experience. I also have to say, during the first Red Bull X-Alps, the regulations weren't nearly as strict as they are today. I believe you weren't obligated to take a break at night, say from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m., but you could have run through every night, right? Yes, correct. Did you actually make it to Monaco back then? No, wait, I think we were still missing 160 kilometers. And did you consider participating in later X-Alps events, or was it more like, I've tried it once now, I know what to expect, and it doesn't really appeal to me anymore?
Yeah, I'm the type of person for whom health is a very important factor. And I knew that if you're too ambitious, it comes at the expense of your health. I noticed that I was getting there, and I kept hitting my limits. I landed in thunderstorms twice where I thought, man, that was close. But I really pushed it to the very last minute, yeah. And then I said, okay, that's it, that's fine.
I said, yeah. If I were 25 right now, I would have definitely done that several times. But I've become incredibly comfortable with age, you know, I just didn't want to put myself through those hardships anymore. There are things I do now that just cause more
fun. Because you just said you're actually a very cautious person or that you pay a lot of attention to your health. Have you ever had a negative experience with paragliding, in the sense that you actually got injured? I already broke my shin...
broke my fibula. Specifically at the Kitzbühlerhorn during a top landing. I wasn't aware of it because the Kitzbühlerhorn is very sharp. And I had a bit of wind. I had already flown and landed back up there. That was in the morning. That means there was quite a bit of wind. And I underestimated that on a very sharp mountain, the wind becomes less of a lift component but is more washed around. And I fly toward the ground at a much higher speed than if it were a wider lift band.
And I underestimated that a bit. And then there was also this large rock formation. That was just too much for my tibia—fibula. I broke my tibia—fibula there. That was my only crash, so to speak, where I got injured. But I've had experiences time and again where I thought, you have to be careful in the future. Where things don't always go well. But I didn't get injured. You have...
And I underestimated that a bit. And then there was this huge rock formation there too. It was just too much for my tibia-fibula. I broke my tibia-fibula. That was my only crash, so to speak, where I got injured. But I've had experiences again and again where I thought, you have to be careful in the future. Where things don't always go well. But I didn't get injured. You've... worked as a test pilot for Nova for years too. Yes. But I never really experienced any precarious situations. Well, actually, I did. I
I've also been inside the canopy before, where I couldn't really free myself anymore. That means I slipped out again. But then I was with my feet up and my head down. And I crashed into the water. And if you have the right fall speed, the water is also very hard. And I felt that back then too. It was good,
that you still had a helmet, so to speak. Even during the water landing.
Yeah, yeah, okay. I think the helmet is the lesser of two evils now. I know what happened to my colleagues who had something similar happen to them. They were...
Broken ribs, broken vertebrae, cervical spine fractures.
I don't know if someone had a concussion, I really don't. I don't think the helmet would necessarily be the most important thing in this case. But the forces exerted on the body during that are, under certain circumstances, very, very large. Maybe I also had a bit of good preparation through my judo or motocross riding, which I did for many years. Maybe I had a bit more body tension that saved me from injuries there or there once. Could be, yeah.
Besides your work there as a test pilot, you also worked as a safety trainer for many years. Yes, yes. And you became known to me in discussions about a very specific descent maneuver that even bears your name, or at least some people gave it that name, saying, "Yes, that's the Holzmüller Spiral." What is that all about?
I'm going crazy that you're so well-informed. I've really only heard that once, the Holzmüller spiral—I mean, I'd never heard of it before; for me, it was just called the held collapse in the program. And the Holzmüller spiral, I'm only hearing that for the first time now, and it's the second time from you. It's truly sensational how well-informed you are. Yes, for myself in competition, when it got stormy and I had to come down, I couldn't put too much strain on my lines, those thin, unmantled lines. So I had to come up with something, how can I spiral down without overstraining my lines.
And that was this held collapse that I constantly had to do in competition for safety reasons, because there were often thunderstorms or because of the rule that you're not allowed to fly over 150 meters above ground over the finish line. I flew this held collapse over and over again and realized, man, that's easy, that's just simple, and I then incorporated it into the SIV training. And
What does a one-sided collapse spiral mean? Do you pull down the whole thing, like half a wing, on one side and then spiral in the direction of your collapsed wing, or is the outside of the wing collapsed?
No, the inside is collapsed, the completely normal reaction of a glider, which means usually it's necessary to collapse more than 50 percent, so a bit more than half, and this collapse, you don't let it go free, that is, the riser or the lines you're holding in your hand, you don't let them out so that it doesn't reopen.
and you dose the sink rate via the brake on the open side, which would also stay in a pleasant range even if you didn't dose it, meaning the downward force isn't as great as if you were flying a normal steep spiral.
But isn't the load on the lines on the outside, which is still open, still very high anyway, so that you'd actually have to fear that the lines might stretch a bit too much? Overall, the
The cold collapse spiral has less centrifugal load. With the open glider spiral, the load is on the inner wing, meaning in a right turn it's on the right side of the wing, and the outside wingtip cuts under and has no load or hardly any load. With the cold collapse, it's the other way around. There, the inside is relieved and the outside is under load, but with much less centrifugal force, i.e., centrifugal load. The lower centrifugal load is the advantage.
You have less centrifugal load, which means less tension on the lines, but because you've already collapsed one half or maybe even more than half, a significantly higher weight is still hanging on the remaining lines than usual. Yes,
but with the
...you have that with the normal spiral too. Because you think everything just hangs on the inside for you? Right, yes. Would you still recommend pilots use your form or this Holzmüller spiral today? And if so, in which cases at all? We have the held...
collapse -spiral always trained. That means it was always part of our SIV training. And even in the last rounds, when I do SIV training now, nothing has changed. That means we would still push it just as much, because it is a body- and line-friendly descent.
Why hasn't this form of the spiral become more established? I think it already has...
established. At least, pilots have told me that it's just been established in the school, in
at a flight school there, also be trained. Regarding the SIV training, you do that significantly less than before; I think only on request now, if the clubs ask you or something like that. What other goals do you have today in your flying? Do you mainly just want to accompany the Waldrapp in the summer now, and that's your main purpose? Or are there other plans that you have for yourself? Well, I was before
five years ago, I had a severe herniated disc and was very handicapped, both in terms of flying and overall movement and sports. I've only been really fit again for three years, and two years ago—or I think it was about two years ago—I had my spine checked by a specialist. I wanted to know what it looked like for the next seven years, because the Waldrappe project is going to run again over the next seven years, and whether I could even put that project on my spine for the future. And it was confirmed to me that my spine is apparently like that of a 40-year-old, so for me, the next seven years are the Waldrappe project.
what I have fixed now, what I still want to do if everything continues as it has been done so far. Because, in terms of my capacity for requirements, this is currently the most fun, and also checking the weather, keeping the equipment in order, planning the route—yes, simply this Waldrapp project is like for me
tailor-made. You know what I mean?
Yeah, that's where all your qualities come together in a way. You're a technician, you have to master engine mechanics. You're a meteorologist, you have to master the weather. You're a thermals pilot, you have to show the forest raptors how to circle properly and so on, and you have to be able to do that everywhere. If you do this for another seven years—if I counted correctly, you're 63 now—then you'll be 70. It's a nice thought to say, maybe then, or at least you'd say that's retirement age, and in that field, you're still flying anyway, and also with a project where you say, this somehow still makes sense, it really fulfills you, because then you're not just flying for yourself, but you're saying, I'm doing this for the birds too, so that they have a future.
Yes, yes, but I'm very, how should I put it, I'm already very selfish there. For me, my fun, my fun counts for even more now. If it didn't make that much fun in terms of flying, I probably wouldn't have done the project a long time ago. But that's exactly where I notice that if the birds have fun with me while flying, and the project is still meaningful,
what I believe at least for today,
You know, it all sort of fits together. And that's also the reason why I'm thinking about other things; I'd really like to do more hike and fly.
You know, I'm basically a mountain biker, so I really enjoy mountain biking, but I also want to push myself more to go into the mountains with a bike-hiker. That's something I want to do more often in the future.
want to. And the Valtra project as a big one,
at least a summer project where you say, you have to invest quite a lot of time into training and flying with the birds. Exactly. So, as a final question, is flying with the birds—with the bearded vultures—in that moment, as a pilot, you often have this dream of wanting to fly like a bird. Now, you certainly don't fly like a bird with a motorized glider, but actually, flying with the birds, do you say that in some way you're equal to them in the air, if not even the boss of them at that moment? Is that a feeling that makes you proud and fulfilled? No, it doesn't make you proud,
but I can tell you that I really do feel like a bird, because when I'm flying with the birds, I don't think about the flying at all, I just do it and I'm one with my trike, and I don't even notice anymore that it's actually an aluminum tube frame with a gasoline engine inside. I'm not aware of that at all; for me, at the point where we're in the air with the birds, only the bird and I matter. Everything else is basically tuned out. It's so ingrained in me that I don't think about the aircraft—I don't even think about an engine failure, of course I always have to account for an engine failure, but I don't think about the trike or the controls or the throttle anymore, it all happens automatically.
I don't have to think about that. It's just like driving a car; the shifting happens automatically. So, if I have a manual gear stick and I fly a lot, I don't have to think about exactly how I have to control my aircraft, it all happens automatically. I don't need to think about anything at all. I'm completely in sync with the aircraft.
So, just the bird and me. A lovely closing word from you, Walter. Thank you for your story about the Valtra project, your history, and the way you—you can almost get jealous of that idea—being able to fly so close to birds, or flying with them so that they get so close to you that you're really flying eye to eye and saying, in that moment, I have a real connection to them. That must be something truly special. Yes, it is something very special, yes. Walter, may you experience many more such special moments over the next seven years. May your 40-year-old spine hold up as much as possible, and that you definitely keep having fun and all the best to you. You're very welcome, thank you very much.
And I enjoyed talking with you.
That was episode number 67 of Podz-Glidz, featuring Walter Holzmüller in conversation with Luzi. If you want to learn more about the Waldrad project and Walter's other adventures, check out the show notes for this episode on the Lu-Glidz blog. I've put together a series of further links there. You can find Lu-Glidz online at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. Lu-Glidz is spelled Lu-Glidz. There are dozens of other episodes of Podz-Glidz with interesting stories from the world of paragliding. You can find them at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com, on Lu-Glidz and Soundcloud, and everywhere else there are good podcasts. By the way, Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz are completely ad-free and accessible without any paywall.
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