68. Der Entertainer - Charlie Jöst

And then I took off, Lucian. It was only five seconds. But until then, they were the most beautiful seconds of my life. When you're running, always with that clattering and the lines collapsing and the ropes clattering and the sail rattling, and suddenly it gets completely quiet. Suddenly it goes... Like that.

it must have been Lilienthal. He must have cried afterwards. I almost cried too. I thought to myself, that's it.

Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Charlie Jöst and Lucian Haas at the microphone. When the DHV was founded 42 years ago, the young Charlie Jöst was still very critical of the association's goals. However, shortly after, he was convinced of the necessity of certain regulations for hang gliding and later also paragliding, in the interest of pilot safety. In 1996, Charlie was elected to the head of the association as a consensus and transition candidate to settle a brewing directional dispute within the DHV at the time. It was a long transition.

Twenty-five years later, Charlie Jöst is now stepping down as chairman. In this episode, number 68 of Podz-Glidz, the 69-year-old looks back on his time at the DHV just before the end of this era. What does he consider his greatest successes? Which projects did he fail at? What special experiences were there? And what embarrassing moments? Anyone who has seen Charlie Jöst live will be able to confirm that the man has entertainer qualities. As a singer and a good storyteller, he knows how to liven up any dry protocol. And that's also the case in this podcast. In Charlie's mouth, dry association work becomes an entertaining business. En passant, you learn a lot of interesting things about the history, the history, the history.

And the inner workings of perhaps the most powerful organizations in the paragliding scene. Charlie also talks about his personal history, including his first flight attempt at just five years old, learning dragon flying as a self-taught student, an impressive first flight on a paraglider, pioneering feats in searching for launch sites, his near-career as a professional drummer, and his successes as a screenwriter. If you enjoy this podcast, you can support my work in various ways. You can help make Podz-Glidz better known, for example by recommending the podcast to flying friends or via social media. Of course, you can also support Podz-Glidz and the associated blog Lu-Glidz financially.

You can find out how you can easily become a supporter on the Lu-Glidz website, specifically on the Support page.

Charlie, what kind of feelings or memories does that evoke for you when you...

Do you hear the word Tritonus? Tritonus was a beautiful time. Many people don't even know what a Tritonus is. It's a cadence, so a three-tone step. Three whole tones are a Tritonus. That was the Diabolo in Musica. Do the musicians usually know that? It's a dissonance. And that's what we named our band. 1970, '71. And in this band, I played rock music for six years. You were the drummer. That's right. And not far from here, we made the first record. Just 500 meters away from here was a recording studio.

So it says here, we're sitting here at your place in Heidelberg, and just 500 meters from your home was the recording studio. You made your first record there back then. Did it have any kind of success?

The first record wasn't a big success. But we got a record deal with it at BASF. And many people don't know that BASF used to produce vinyl records back in the day. And that's how we opened the door to making a long-playing record, the first long-playing record. And did you guys record that too? We recorded it, but it wasn't recorded here. That was a smaller studio in Heidelberg, but we were at Tonstudio Bauer in Ludwigsburg. There was a young sound engineer there who had just started. His name is Carlos Albrecht and he's a luminary in the business today. As

When I did a bit of research on you, I noticed this Tritonus. I already knew about the annual general meetings where you sometimes sat down at the drums, so I knew you could do that and that you used to make music. Then I found this Tritonus and it said that two of the band members were also glider pilots and that's why there were echoes of that in the lyrics, or rather, the content was also about flying. Did you write the lyrics yourself back then?

I co-wrote some of it and also co-composed the music, so those titles were often worked on together. We were a trio, and it's no secret, we played a bit like Amazon Lake in Parma and also picked up those kinds of themes. And because Ronald Brandt, whose nickname was Phipps, our bassist, was also a glider pilot—I even took him gliding—we recorded the track "Gliding," for example. We tried to process the feelings of flying in that. Did you have dreams back then, maybe of becoming a professional musician? Yes, that was actually on the table. I've somehow been blessed with various talents, thankfully, but unfortunately never good enough to really be a star.

So, I can make music, I'm a drummer, I can fly, I've been a teacher, and I've had other talents, but they were never good enough to really be a star. To really make it big, I mean, to get to the very top. I'd say I'm the kind of person who has the average level, and I was actually quite content with that. The idea of being a professional musician kept bugging me for a while, but then I had an encounter with some other musicians on the Rhine in Rüdesheim. And it was so shocking that I thought, I don't want to be a professional musician after all. Do you want to know what happened? If you're going to hint at it like that, then definitely. Okay.

So, at that time I wasn't playing rock music anymore; I had to earn a bit of money for my studies and I was working in a show band. Dance? Dance music, yeah. A bit higher-end dance music, so a bit better, but it was dance music. And we played a ball in Rüdesheim and had rehearsals there at noon, so we accompanied artists. I accompanied interesting artists. People you might not know anymore today, but I even stood on stage with Otto. Otto Walkes. With Otto Walkes, yeah. And during that time, as I said, in Rüdesheim—that must have been the mid-80s or early 80s. And we had a break and walked through the Drosselgasse, and there were musicians there.

They played music for the tourists at noon. And I look inside. It was all brown, polished, old, waxed, soft wood. And I look over at the drums and suddenly I see that this drum kit had slowly sunk into the floor. I mean, the stands were already sunken into the ground. And then I thought, wow, this drum kit—it was also a really old model, it must have been standing there for several decades. And then the two musicians came out, and they were 70 plus. They shuffled in like that. Looked at their watches, had some S-packet in a bag with them. They sat down at their instruments—it was a Fafisa organ and a drummer—and gave a little nod.

And then Father Rhine started. I saw Father Rhine in his bed. Then it became clear to me that the two of them didn't have to say anything at all. They've been doing this for so long—coming in every day with their little bread basket, sitting down at their instruments, nodding to each other, and playing this program. Probably for ten, twenty years now. And then I thought to myself, if you're unlucky, this is how you might end up as a professional musician. And that actually put me off. I thought, no, that's not how I want to end my career.

That's actually a nice transition. Because you say they might have played the same program for ten or twenty years. Now you haven't played it for ten or twenty, but for 25 years you've played, mimicked, personified, and fully lived out the role of the DRV chairman, so to speak. How much of that was, in the end, perhaps also the same program for you?

Yes, that was something else. When I stepped in—you have to know, I was elected as chairman in 1996—but I had already been involved with the association for 15 years before that. I was once the sports director, media advisor, for example. Did you actually co-found the DRV? No, I'm hour two. Hour one was in Donsdorf, and I had heard about that. At the time, I was a glider pilot, but I had also already flown kites. I taught myself a bit in the Odenwald; there were already some kite flyers there. So, just to put it into perspective, hour one was 1979. 1979 was hour one, because that was hour zero.

1979 was hour zero; the DRV was founded in Donsdorf. The DRV didn't exist as a name yet, but the kite flyers were affiliated with the aeroclub at the time. That was also a wish of the Ministry of Transport, that they affiliate with something, because the sport was so new. And the... the administrators couldn't do much with it at all. There were no rules, no tests for the kites, and so on. And they probably hoped that if they joined an association now, the whole thing would become a bit more organized. And Peter Jansen, many people don't know this, but he was at the time, so to speak, the sports group leader for kite flying in the aeroclub, in the German Aeroclub.

And as a glider pilot, I'd heard that something new was being created, and I didn't like it at all. Because for me, hang gliding was freedom. I didn't want certificates, I didn't want rules. I wanted to fly with my glider, truly free like a bird. What they were doing there seemed totally suspicious to me.

It started back in 1977 at the Aeroclub. I took a look at that and then did my flight instructor training there. So I still have a DRC flight instructor license. And I thought to myself, what they're doing there, they're starting from scratch. It's not mature at all. Gliders have already done all of this—meteorology and everything else there is—much more professionally. Why do you have to reinvent the wheel? And I voiced my criticism back then during the instructor course. And later on, too, when I heard there was supposed to be an association. By then, I had met other paragliders in the Black Forest. That was Paul Kofler and Ali Schmidt, unforgettable. And they told me, Charlie, come join us. We've founded an association.

And now, a year later, we have the first meeting. Come on over and tell us everything you don't like. I said, I don't like a lot of things. And then I went there. I thought, if you have criticism, you should express it. I knew Klaus Tenzler from those flight instructor courses, and I saw Peter Janssen live for the first time. Peter came up to me. Paul Kofler introduced me. And Peter Janssen said, you're Charlie, the one who doesn't like what we're doing at all. I said, yes, exactly, that's right. I think it's terrible. You want to issue licenses and all sorts of things now. And I've had so many great freedoms all this time. And then we had a very serious conversation. And Peter listed all the accidents that had happened so far.

That the training is still flawed. And that the sport will suffer if it doesn't move into better, more serious channels. And might even be banned. And in the end, he said, you know what, if you have so much criticism, come over here and make it better. And that's how I ended up at the DHV. That was hour two. That was hour one. Hour zero was Donsdorf. That was hour one in Lofenau. And from then on, I got involved and worked with them. And many people say, oh my god, that was so selfless. Everything you did there. No, we were actually selfish. Because we wanted to make sure the sport wasn't banned. We wanted to make sure the sport was safe.

So, what we did. We became a very good team. What we did also secured our sport. We did it for ourselves, too. And later, people noticed that more and more athletes were joining. More and more people were getting excited. And then the political aspect came into play. That means we became stronger. We were heard. And it was also a great achievement of Peter Janssen, who was still in Bonn at the Ministry of Transport back then, that we had those first talks there. And we could tell them, we'd prefer it if you let us do it. And we'll present to you what we want to improve. And you can control us if necessary.

And then the legislator actually conducted an experiment. Something that hadn't existed until then. Manned flight in Germany has always been regulated by the BMV. Today, the BMVI. And back then, the BMVI—the Federal Minister of Transport—gave these powers to the German Paragliding Association, originally the Aero Club, but now the German Paragliding Association. It's called the "Beliener" of German law, which means we are allowed to inspect flight devices and train pilots and flight instructors. That didn't exist in Germany until then.

Was was that really an experiment at the beginning, titled as such, and did they say, "We're going to test this for a year or two, and if you don't prove yourselves, we'll revoke this right again"?

That was subject to revocation. You can say that for sure. At least at the beginning. And they were called general administrative orders. Peter always explained that nicely to us as a lawyer. I always thought that was some kind of solid legislative initiative. But general administrative orders are issued by the ministry and can be rescinded at any time. It wasn't until years later, I think 1993, that we got a real legal basis for the first time. Because with the general administrative order and with aviation law at the time, we weren't mentioned as kites and paragliding. That didn't actually exist. Kites were categorized as just tethered aircraft. And they kept pushing us into "other equipment used for aviation."

Nice. I'm flying an "other device used for aviation." But that referred to winches and things like that. And we were always in this gray area, you could say. And things changed—it even went beyond the terrain—the Minister of Transport also gave us the authority that we could fly and land anywhere where the landowner said yes, as long as we were 1.5 kilometers away from the nearest airfield. And that's how the airfields, the aviation sites in Germany, grew and were created. It was a great freedom. And then, I'll shorten it a bit, in Freiburg, another aviation site was supposed to be approved.

And only if, for example, there had been traffic nearby, like car traffic, or if an airport had been too close or there had been mixed flight operations with motorized aircraft, did the regional authority have to give the okay. Otherwise, we were free. It was a great thing. And in Freiburg, it happened that the regional authority—it was one specific official there—took us on the handle; he said, I won't let this airfield go through the way you're doing it. You're landing too close to the road. You're a distraction for traffic. Following that, there was a trial at the district court and the Freiburg kite flyers won. And they were already looking to make a real scene out of it.

Because the judges—and this is interesting—they said, I actually think they were great judges back then at the district court; they said if the kite flyers are a distraction there, then no girl with a miniskirt can walk around there anymore. And that's why we're letting the flyers fly there too. But this official, and the Freiburg Regional Council as well, had a very good lawyer who now didn't say they aren't allowed to land there, but instead asked why the Regional Council is allowed to grant permits at all? That's the business of the state authorities. The BMVI can't just say, "Here, the state can now decide, you can open airfields however you want."

And it went before the administrative court. And we won without appeal. That means our freedom was instantly gone. And now the Ministry of Transport was forced to create a legal basis for us. And that's how we got into aviation law in the first place. Peter Hansen said back then that, actually, we lost something. But at the same time, we gained something, because now, as aviation sports equipment, we got a name for the first time and were recognized. But getting permits for flying sites became more difficult.

Just very briefly, if you had to choose right now between the freedom of the past and having this one name, having a right, having a title, being somehow more legally graspable, what would you choose?

When I was 25, a young sailplane pilot who actually wanted to prevent this kite flying from becoming restrictive, I would have said keep the freedom at all costs. But when I saw later how much that freedom cost in terms of victims—because the aircraft weren't inspected or because a landowner would suddenly say, "You don't need to come here anymore, that's it, the airfield is closed"—when I experienced that and look back now, it was better and more important to have rights, even if they come with obligations. But no one can drive us away if everything is legally sound and approved by the authorities. Italy, Lucian, had the great freedom.

Back in the 80s and 90s, pilots told me, Charlie, what's the point? The DHV has this again and wants that again, and we have to get licenses as pilots and whatnot. And I can't fly on the airfield. The farmer said he's kicking us out and so on. And I said, so what? Yes, without Italy, I fly where I want. I land where I want. No one gets upset, no one asks for a license. A few, one or two years later, and that—at the time, it was mainly kite flyers, paragliding didn't really exist yet—the nephew of the Minister of Transport died in a fatal kite accident, and then the Italian authorities dealt with this, um, wild flying for the first time and completely banned kite flying overnight.

End. He said they don't have any legal basis at all. Period. Then pilots called us at the DHV and asked what happened? They confiscated a kite overnight. Suddenly, kites were being seized in Italy. They had to take the kites to the police authorities, and the police locked them up and even tried to start legal proceedings against them. And then I told the pilots, so now, what do you have left of your freedom? I'd rather have a guaranteed right and have to do and provide something for it, than have a freedom that isn't freedom at all.

That would probably be one of the—you could almost say, alongside the safety aspect, the other perhaps most significant point of the DHV, where one would say it really holds great importance.

If you look back at it now, if you say you've been involved since hour one, or year one, or whatever, then you've been entangled with the DHV's tricks for over 40 years now. Yeah. Almost 50.

Years, yes.

And is that already 50? No, 40.

40, 40,

Sorry. 79, you're 40 now. So this year it would be 42 years. Then you'd have been involved for 41 years. And 25 of those were as chairman. And now you've also said, no, now I want to hand that over. If you say it like that and imagine it, do you also feel a bit of...

like regret? Yes, it is. So I thought about it for a long time, whether I should choose this point in time or run again for three years. But I already had these thoughts three years ago. Because I knew I wouldn't, and don't want to, be the chairman of the association until old age. I always enjoyed doing it. And I always told my people at the meetings: I enjoy doing it. Tell me when I should stop. Now, nobody told me to stop. But I had this feeling for myself that actually now—I could of course say, Angela Merkel called in the spring and said, Charlie, watch out, I'm stopping in the spring.

How about you? Then I said, Angela, you know what, I'm quitting too. That was a joke, of course. No. I didn't become chairman 25 years ago because I wanted to be; I was mediating disputes. The association was being torn apart back then. And I tried to mediate. And during these mediation attempts, more and more things eventually crystallized. You could also say that. Peter Jansz, as chairman at the time, had a flock of loyalists around him who would have gone through fire for him. And on the other side were new movements. You don't have to name them now. But it also had something to do with freedom.

Specifically, this one: we want more freedoms. So, away from these regulations and so on. And it was also a conflict over ideals. And that would have torn the association apart. It could have resulted in us having two associations.

And I had good connections with every group. And I always tried to bring the parties together. And just before the explosion, it was interesting—they both called me one after the other, without coordinating with each other, and said, "So Charlie, if you take over now and Peter Janssen doesn't step up or steps down, we'll try to work together again." Shortly after, Peter Janssen called me, whom I had also criticized. Peter said, "Charlie, I notice we're heading into a war where the association would suffer. And I'm saying, I'd like to ask you, would you take over the next chairmanship?"

I didn't want to at all. I said, "Look, Peter, let me be. I'm happy to stay on the board, but I don't want to take over as chairman right now." But then both sides... it was also a colleague of yours who did the press, the one who did the kite magazine back then. They called and said, "Charlie, you have to do it." So I was being approached from three sides. And then I said, "You know what, I'll do it provisionally for now. I'll do it for a year or two, and then we'll look for a new chairman to take over." That's turned into a pretty long transition. That

was a very

a very long transition, 25 years.

25 years, that's a quarter of a century. That sounds like even more. It feels like it has more weight. When you hear something like that and imagine it for yourself, does it make you feel a bit awestruck?

No, actually not awe-struck, I have to say. Because in this time, it has flown by. Those were wonderful times. I have, well, you could say my life, without me steering it, has been largely taken up by this flying and the association. Flying has accompanied me my whole life. And I will do that until I drop dead. I'll fly something. If I'm no longer physically able to fly kites or go paragliding, I'll keep flying. I'll fly sailplanes or something. But also this working together on ideas with these people, that was fun. In these years, I've met wonderful people who wanted the same thing. You could maybe say, well, the divers and the mountaineers will say this too, but in our sport, in flying,

No, actually not reverent, I have to say. Because that time, it has flown by. Those were wonderful times. I have, well, you could say my life, without me controlling it, has been largely taken up by this aviation and the association. Flying has accompanied me my whole life. And I will do it until I drop dead. I'll fly something. If I can no longer fly kites or paragliders physically, I'll keep flying. I'll fly sailplanes or something like that. But also this collaborative work on ideas with people, that was fun. In these years, I've met wonderful people who wanted the same thing. You could maybe say, I have—well, the divers and the mountaineers would say this too, but I have, in our sport, in flying, met some of the most valuable people I've ever met in my entire life, time and again. We are something unique. We pilots are something special, maybe the mountaineers would say that too, sure. And yet I maintain we have something. And it's fun, and it's fun with these people. And that's why the 25 years have actually flown by. What would you say,

what is such a great character trait that so many pilots have, what is it about that?

It's a cliché, but maybe what makes it is that we have to do A to do this sport. So it's not just taking the ball out and kicking it into the goal, but you have to maintain your aircraft, you have to make sure everything is right, you have to get to the mountain, you have to go to the winch, or whatever. Secondly, you have to master your gear, you have to learn how to handle it. And you learn early on that you can't afford to make mistakes. It might sound old-fashioned, but flying builds character, the character of taking responsibility for yourself. And even today, when I'm standing on the mountain or when I get into the plane, my pulse goes up. I notice the adrenaline rush, even though I could say I've definitely done kites and paragliding.

thousands of flight hours, plus a few hundred more with airplanes. And yet, I still get this excitement, this incredibly beautiful excitement, when I unpack the paraglider and clip in the harnesses and my pulse goes up. And I think many of us like that. We like this tension. And then comes the release. Luciano, you're a pilot yourself. Then the release when you take off, the wing carries you. That is still the most beautiful moment for me. Regardless of whether the plane takes off or your feet leave the ground. In that moment, the release comes. And then I'm home.

But that would be the solo pilot, who can experience that all on his own. Now you said that in the community, you also experience very positive people. Or those whom you say are very special people. What is it about the community aspect of flying? Or what makes the pilot in the community so special?

A small example might be my work with Burki. He's already done a blog post about you, too. Burkhard Martens. Burkhard Martens, yes. Burki and I, and also others, but Burki took the lead, adapted his two films and his books. And that work we did together was, for me, despite the fact that I've done many industrial films and all sorts of things, actually among the most beautiful experiences in my flying career. At the same time, it was also my filmmaking, which I love too. But during that time, we both constantly felt that sense of learning from one another and developing together.

I could only do that with a pilot. With industrial films, the engineers sat next to me and told me, Mr. Joest, we need this or that or that. And I would say, fine, you're the engineer, I can tell you as a filmmaker that we shouldn't show this threaded bolt for too long or something like that. With a pilot like Burki, we spoke about flying and filming in a completely different way. And that was, you could say, what we two experienced, or what we three experienced. If you translate that to the commission now, when a paragliding commission comes together and then the following problem comes onto the table: we have this problem. I can mention the current problems. The airspace is getting tighter and tighter.

That is a problem that concerns us and will continue to concern us. How can we keep our aviation as free as possible? Safety has always been the top priority at the DHV anyway. And now it's also about our freedom. How can we secure that freedom? And then it's just lovely to have people involved, to experience how many ideas are born during a brainstorming session, and how then, again, the wishes of each individual to preserve this freedom are there, and people work together on solutions. That's what makes this work so beautiful in the association, and especially in the commission. That's also because

Pilots maybe have a very shared dream in some way? Everyone experiences it differently? Everyone has a different way of developing feelings while in the air. But nevertheless, it is something very emotionally connecting. So

I'm sure that's how it is. Emotions play a role in our flying—I always say it's a sport, but it's only really a sport for a few. High-performance athletes are truly doing sports; they strive for it intensely. Most of us are pleasure flyers. Even just the term "pleasure flyer" is actually crazy. Achim Joos once told me, "Hey, you always say you're a pleasure flyer, I'm a competition flyer. But I also have pleasure in competition flying." He's right about that, of course. But most people are simply content to be in the air, to fly again, and to just land safely again. And I believe this sense of enjoyment is there for every flyer.

This tension, as I mentioned earlier, first this tension, this wonderful feeling, and then this sense of relief. What I always experience,

what I think makes flying so interesting for many people, exciting too, but interesting is that you never stop learning. And even the PWC winner or whatever, someone will still tell you, "Yeah, I experienced something there that I couldn't immediately categorize." Or "He flew somewhere that I didn't fly to at that moment," and then he went up. And whoever goes up is obviously right. And then you'll say, "Yeah, I didn't see that or understand it." But apparently, it works that way too. And that you can always learn everywhere and also learn from each other all the time, and also know that you're not an omniscient being, but in a sense, a community of constant learning.

I experienced that as a flight instructor. I started as a flight instructor assistant quite early, in 1977, and then trained glider pilots and later trained the flight instructors themselves for many years in the association. And I learned a lot there myself, again from others. Pilots would come who were technically better than me but wanted to become flight instructors. You learned from each other. You're an excellent weather expert. You probably didn't study weather first. You read up on it, just like I did. That means we saw weather phenomena and then got books. Back then, all those electronic possibilities didn't exist yet. And as a glider pilot, I was anyway...

...very interested in the weather. And you'd devour those books without feeling like you were being forced to learn. You'd stay up for nights on end because it was just so exciting. And as a trained teacher, I can tell you, that is the ideal state for a student. The ideal state for a teacher—we discussed this repeatedly during my studies—is when the teacher goes into the classroom and says, for example, using our aviation terminology, "cloud formation." And then the teacher sits down and the students start independently researching everything they can find about clouds.

Unfortunately, teaching doesn't always work out that nicely. But for us pilots, it does. Those who really want to know everything take in everything they can and don't feel like they're wasting their time.

Is there something you'd say, if you could always boil it down to one point, like, something where you'd say, that was my biggest lesson during my time as CEO?

Wow, that's a question that makes me think.

If I had to say right now, I'd have to think about it

think about it. So, let's look at it a bit differently. What do you see as your biggest success during your time as CEO? Where you can say, hey, I can really say that grew on my shoulders.

Yeah, that was

I already told you how I became chairman, actually as a reconciler. Later, people would say, Charlie, I elected you because you never wanted to be chairman. That

is also

somewhere nice. And only a few years later, there was the second breaking point in the DHV, and that was the moment when the Ministry of Transport—that was the era of privatizations. We remember, that was in the 90s, early 90s, mid-90s, no, it was the late 90s. I was elected in '96, then in '98, '99, the privatization wave came, and everything became cheaper. The financial world was deregulated, the railway was privatized, energy was privatized. Everything has been cheaper since then, hasn't it? Okay. Well, not everything has become cheaper and better. Good, but privatization, good,

We're not trying to politicize things, but privatization is once again at the top of the agenda, and privatization has its downsides too. And now the Ministry of Transport came along and said, oh, and there were also movements from other sides, we want to take kites and paragliders out of the regulations. In other European countries, it's not as strictly regulated as in Germany, whereas we were allowed to regulate a lot ourselves, but we're giving you much more freedom. One background factor was that we also created the quality seal back then, today it's called the type test, back then it was also a certification, so we did real aircraft certifications, and the certification was scrapped immediately. The background was that they no longer wanted any state liability.

So, when our testers were still testing with type certification, if they did something stupid, the state would have stepped in. The certification was scrapped, but a type examination was still required. That doesn't mean they wanted to get rid of all of them in the first place. They basically said in the BMVI, "It's like a bicycle"—that's actually the term that was used—we then turned it into a flying bicycle, and a bicycle doesn't need many regulations in itself, it needs a brake and pedals, and the rider is personally responsible for the bicycle. And that's how they approached us. We offer you great freedom. The type certification is gone, the examination is gone.

Interestingly, they wanted to keep the training. So, the motto was: everyone takes what they want and flies however they like. No, a certain basic knowledge of flying must be present, but we're no longer interested in your aircraft. You can do whatever you want. Many welcomed this. I had discussions with members, and they were freedom-loving people. I could relate to that. Knut von Handic was someone I really enjoyed discussing this with. And Knut would always say, "Charlie, you were on the commission back then, enjoy this freedom." And I'd say, "Knut, I experienced this 20 years ago. We don't know what the people, the manufacturers, are selling us. The manufacturers are reasonable. Tony Bender said it too. We manufacturers don't want to hurt anyone."

We're doing everything right. And then I said, Tony, remember 20 years ago, the Guggemoos affair and so on. There were three deaths before anyone reacted. Yes, but Charlie, that's over. Let's embrace freedom. And that's when I became cautious. I got scared. I imagined that paragliders had already existed for several years. I imagined some trunk dealer—that's what we called them—sewing together a paraglider from somewhere, driving out to a meadow and saying, I've tested a paraglider for 1,000 Marks or 1,000 Euros. Wonderful. I'll fly it for you if you want. Super class. And now these young pilots, who have just finished their basic training, and maybe haven't even done that yet.

And they buy one of these things and actually have no idea what's coming at them. And that was the first time I felt something like a burden and responsibility on my shoulders. And there were several of us who thought that way. Even our technical department, Hannes Weininger, said, "Man, Charlie, if this flying bicycle comes along, I don't know what our scene will look like in a few years." And then we counteracted, went to the BMVI, and there was a very important meeting at the BMVI. The department responsible wanted to hold a hearing and wanted to sell us on the flying bicycle again. And there was a department head whose name I won't say now.

He sat across from us and looked at me. I was the chairman. "Mr. Jöst, just enjoy the freedom." And I say, "No, we also have a responsibility. Let us do the tests, at least the prototype testing." And I acknowledge, we won't get the certification anymore. But the prototype testing—young people who want to fly with us, they have no idea what's coming at them. There was a long back and forth. They absolutely wanted it to be resolved. And then he leaned forward toward me, it was intense, and said, "Mr. Jöst, what do you want? Suicide isn't punishable by law in Germany either." And Klaus Tenzler was sitting next to me. The two of us turned pale. And I leaned over to Klaus.

Stann, Stann, Spiegel, the press, we have to tell everyone. These contemptuous politicians, these technocrats in the BMVI. Do you hear this? We were beside ourselves. I mean, that shocked me. I thought to myself, yeah, he also justified it. Oh, I must not forget. Lucian said the following before. Our experts have calculated, ladies and gentlemen, that we want to make this much more liberal now. Our experts have calculated that your aircraft consists of 80, 90% human. It wasn't clear to me at all. A paraglider only weighs 20 kilos. And the human weighs 70, 80 kilos. So it's 80% human. Our experts say that, in terms of the danger to the general public, it is very unlikely that this mass will fall somewhere and cause damage.

And if it falls, the damage is minimal. That's how we assessed it. And then comes the line: What do you want? Suicide isn't punishable either. Then came the lunch break. We were sitting outside at a table. And suddenly, another department head from a different department comes over. We already knew him from negotiations. I can say the name. It was Mr. Gabers. Mr. Gabers is surely retired now. He came over and said, Mr. Jöst, this is something completely new. You want to remain regulated. It rarely happens to us civil servants that people call for us. That's really great. Then I say, no, Mr. Gabers, we're afraid that it won't be controlled anymore.

Then he said, I share your fears. You're absolutely right. And we're going to tackle that again. So, I'm on your side regarding that. But how do you see this working in the future? Then I said, let's establish how we want to do the sample testing. Let's determine what the training looks like. Let's continue to set the guidelines so that we have safe aircraft. And then you monitor us. But let us do the rest. Then he laughed and said, let's see what comes out of it. And I'm one of the people who saved the sample testing. I'm proud of that. And I still defend it today.

Did this official, who wanted the opposite, experience that as a defeat?

Do you know that? I don't know anymore, because he was about to retire and then he did. But I can tell you this now, just off the record. His successor was another lawyer. And that lawyer is also retired now, but I won't say his name. He remained our opponent. And he kept making life difficult for us whenever the time came for several testing centers to emerge and so on. And that official kept throwing a wrench in the works and was involved in the restructuring so that the type rating was no longer... well, we are affiliated with the LBA, the Luftfahrtbundesamt, as far as our remains in Berlin are concerned.

What many people don't know is that the Luftfahrtbundesamt now only monitors our pilot training, license certifications, and so on. In the past, they also monitored the type certifications, which we liked. This official made sure that accreditations were introduced. So, the privatization was continued.

The accreditation body that was founded a few years ago was also intended to pull the state out and remove that state responsibility. And we, along with a few other testing centers, had to undergo an accreditation process. Today we can say we learned something from it, but we wouldn't have needed the accreditation. And it—I can just say it, and Hannes will correct me if I'm wrong—cost almost 200,000 euros in the initial phase. And those were membership fees we had to put up. And that's what this official wanted, which I can understand to some extent; we had a kind of monopoly on quality seals. And that was broken up by this, and then two, three, four other testing centers applied.

And one of the testing bodies—I heard in your blog that he's stepped back—also played a major role. That's Guido Reusch with the IAPR.

And these accreditations are now basically only done by two testing bodies. They always cost us money. And because of this official who pushed for it, as the successor to that first official, he gave us, how should I put it, a little parting gift. A

small but expensive. An expensive parting gift, yeah. With the other side, maybe you'd say you also learned a lot. Probably the exam didn't get any worse because of it. No, it didn't get worse. And what we learned could have been cheaper. That might certainly be the case with this whole story. That was now, let's say, your biggest success, where you say you ensured that, let's say, safety for the pilots was maintained. Is there anything where you'd also say that was your biggest failure? Where you really had to take a hit and say that didn't go my way? Yes.

And we have to mention another association now, namely the Deutsche Aero Club.

From the very beginning, it was requested—and we're back to the start, hour zero—that we be organized within the Aero Club. And we were, starting in '75, '74. And they didn't really want it there. The glider pilots—I was a glider pilot myself—they said, what do we want with these motorized planes? The Ministry of Transport wants them to join us. We don't want them at all. And that's how we were treated. I didn't mind. I wanted freedom anyway. Freedom above all else. Peter Janssen and others were, of course, annoyed by it. And then they founded the DHV in Donsdorf. And the DHV was successful. Central structure, organization, and for safety and for the aircraft.

Proper work.

Years later, and we were in competition with the Aero Club, of course. The Aero Club then woke up when they saw, man, these hang gliders—originally just hang gliders until 1986, 87, when paragliders were added—they're getting more and more members. Soaring has only grown slowly, and we've grown, more and more. You were also part of this whole development, you lived through it. And when paragliders were included in '87, we almost exploded. We shot up from 15,000 to 25, 28, 30,000 in a short time. And the Aero Club didn't like that again. And they wanted us back. But we didn't want that anymore.

And then, there was an unpleasant period where we had, for example, two German championships in competition. Because the FAI, the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale, which regulates the sport, only ever grants sporting sovereignty to one national committee. And there was competition. And something else had happened. The Aero Club suddenly started training pilots. They also wanted to do equipment inspections and everything. That's called dual mandate. And this period of dual mandate, and the two championships a year and so on, annoyed and burdened our pilots, and burdened us too, and cost the DHV money. And during Peter Janssen's time, it was still managed. He was a reasonable Aero Club chairman back then, Dr.

Kullmann. He used to be the head of Lufthansa. Dr. Kullmann had met with Peter Janssen once, and later our Peter told him about it or called him. Mr. Janssen, tell me, it can't be that you have 20, 15,000 members outside of our sport. Peter explained that to him. Well, then Dr. Kullmann said, you know what, I saw we have a clause. Extraordinary member. Now, why don't you join the family? Come on in. We'll find something. So, a reasonable man. A small contribution was then negotiated. And we called the whole thing a sports agreement. But in reality, it was more than a sports agreement. Because in that contract, the Aero Club also guaranteed that it would no longer conduct...

...more aircraft, that he would no longer hold competition championships, and he transferred the sporting sovereignty to us. So, if you wanted to be mean, you'd say we paid for the peace. On the other hand, you were part of the family and grew together. You were at the meetings as an extraordinary member without voting rights. And that was the time when I was repeatedly at this Aero Club as the representative of the THV. And I noticed, there were also pilots I still knew, that there was a desire for change. And now I get to the point where I failed, along with others. A few years ago, there was the chance for a movement to emerge within the Aero Club that could pull off a reform of the Aero Club.

The Aero Club is split into 16 state associations with an umbrella organization. There's friction everywhere regarding responsibilities and so on. And the apparatus is way too big. It's a bureaucratic overhead that costs energy and manpower. 16 state presidents and 16 commissions, which then form a federal commission, and endless meetings and everything. Sensible Aero Club pilots from various state associations submitted a very good concept for a charter amendment that would also allow individual members, like us—individual associations—to be included. And I worked on that and contributed. They also asked me to participate.

We had good working groups and everything we developed—which I put a lot of hope and energy into—ultimately went down the drain and fell apart, so we withdrew from the Aero Club again last year because we were no longer happy or satisfied with the development. I could also see that as a failure of my own work and politics. But I wasn't the only one who failed there. Many people were involved in the fact that the baby was unfortunately lost.

What advantage would the DAV have had from being part of a reformed DAEC?

to be? Our ideas were clear. Reducing this massive overhead and creating effective structures.

We wanted to remain centrally organized because with the Aero Club, you have to join the state association in the federal state you're in, so it doesn't have to be that way. And we saw how glider pilots and paragliders are growing together. So our hope was also—and this still happens today at some airfields, where glider pilots, paragliders, and glider pilots fly at the winch in the same club. Our hope was that we could achieve a symbiosis here and, secondly, do our lobbying with more political weight and be able to act together on airspace issues, and simply act differently with 200,000 members than with 40,000, and the Aero Club as well.

And that has

and basically, to put it simply, the DAV now also has some political influence through that.

lost. At first, you might think that's what happened and that we would certainly be more effective in peace if everyone were under one roof. But we tried to do our own lobbying early on and it has succeeded. Firstly, we still have an excellent standing with the Federal Aviation Office and the Federal Minister of Transport, and we now have more contacts with politicians and members of the Bundestag through other channels, and I don't want to go too far here, but the sailplane pilots have also founded their own association, the German Sailplane Association, which, however, still has the problem of recruiting sailplane pilots from the state associations, and the German Model Aircraft Association

with almost 100,000 members. The three of us have them, and it's just that the skydivers are also considering joining us. There's both the individual association and the DREC, and we've established a cooperation, and through this cooperation, we've also presented ourselves to the Federal Minister of Transport on the issues of safety and airspace. We work on those, and we're not really afraid that our influence has diminished now.

When you hear things like, you were in Bonn, you spoke with the Ministry of Transport, you've probably attended a lot of DREC meetings, and all that. It means that as chairman, you're not just at an annual general meeting once a year, doing the greeting and the moderating and all that, but you're doing an insane amount in the background that people don't really pick up on at first. When you imagine how much time of a week, for example, you actually put into what is officially—in quotation marks, I'd say—it's called a voluntary position, but it's probably a lot of time you're putting in there. Realistically, how much time do you put into, or have you put into, this work?

So if you just take the travel time and the meeting times, it's certainly no more than one or two, maybe one day every three weeks. Maybe one or two days a month. More? Well, maybe three days. Just the pure travel time plus the meetings and so on. Of course, if you include reading texts and all that, it starts to add up a bit. I haven't calculated exactly how much time it was yet, but it was a time—as I said before—that I didn't feel like work, but rather something exciting. Of course, there were also tasks involved that were a bit more boring, but that's why we're a team. And I forgot to mention that earlier. What made the commission work fun for me was also our office, down there now with Robin Fries as the new managing director.

So it's been almost five years with us now. It's teamwork that we do. And it's incredibly fun. I can rely on the team and the team can rely on me. That's how the DHV started and that's how it's continued. If I look at our association DHEC, the federation next to it, energy is being wasted there in mutual infighting. Emails directed against each other appear weekly. If you had to read all that, and so on, it would be frustrating and cost an incredible amount of time. Meanwhile, I can rely on my team and say, Robin, there was that issue. Robin says, we're on it, we've already solved it. Just listen to how we're solving it first. Wonderful. So I've never had the feeling that I'm going to burn out, get exhausted, or anything like that.

But one advantage, of course, is that since I was only in the service for a few years, I was able to manage my own time as a freelancer. You have to say that fairly.

Twenty-five years ago, you said you basically stepped in as the mediator and always brought things together. Now, from the way it sounds, you're saying the DRC is divided, but the DRV is actually a team—they work together and we feel like we belong together. How much of that—it might be hard for you to say right now—but how much of that would you say is your doing? Because basically, you've also put your stamp on your own idea of team and teamwork and mediation, and how I bring people together and get them all under one roof.

Yeah, that's obviously difficult because you'd have to analyze yourself. I might just do things differently. So, when they heard that I was quitting, there were many reactions. Some people called me, some wrote me emails, and we just had a meeting over the weekend where some people approached me again. I'll just show you a few things, a few reactions. One touched me because he said to me, Charlie, you know what I'm going to miss? When I went into the meeting and suddenly there was always such a positive spirit, and even if there was some bickering somewhere, you would go to the microphone.

and you somehow brought people together, even though there was still half a war going on in the room before. And then I said, "Yeah, was it like that?" He says, "Yeah, that's how I experienced it." Then I said, "You see, I never gave it any thought." And at the same time, I was happy because I thought maybe I did have a certain talent for it.

A certain amalgam, where you maybe incorporate the toxins that are in there in such a way that, in the end, some kind of functioning whole still comes out. Possibly, yeah. Where you're already calling it the annual general meeting now—if you've followed it over the years, you can always see, of course, there you were. And you, I had the impression that when you see you there, you're actually enjoying it too. You're a bit like the entertainer who manages the whole thing and stuff like that. Where does this streak for entertainment come from?

a bit? Yes, I suspect it had to do with music, which has accompanied me my whole life. And also, well, it's hard to judge yourself like that,

but I've tried to shape things my whole life. And I don't know if that was selfish, maybe, or if it's a profile neurosis, but I remember that in school, after a short time, I was the class representative. And then, I can say this, I got kicked out of school because of my rebelliousness. So I was already difficult somewhere, already. And because I had interfered everywhere, I got kicked out of school and I come from a home that isn't so rich that they would have said... well, some of my buddies who got kicked out went to private high schools, and my father said, now you're going to learn a trade. I barely passed my secondary school certificate; I only got it because I left school.

so was got kicked out. And then I apprenticed as a mechanical engineer. Actually, not with much love. I thought about wanting to become a commercial pilot. And it's good if you have a technical profession. The apprenticeship was great. Motorenwerke Mannheim. I can still weld, turn, everything today. With the glider pilots, I helped maintain the planes, the winches, and so on. I always welded my cars together myself and so on. I don't see that time as a loss today. But it was clear to me that during those three years, I was allowed to leave school, but once those three years were over, I had to go straight back to school. That was clear to me. Man, if only you hadn't been so rebellious back then. And then I went to the college in Speyer and did my Abitur there. And then the question was.

By then, rock music was already quite big. We made our first records. And man, what am I doing now? Am I going to be a professional musician and all that? And during that time as a musician, you already needed a certain sense of entertainment. You were used to sitting on a stage somewhere. And during my apprenticeship in Mannheim, I became a youth representative after a short time. And I took on the troublemakers.

And I don't really consider myself quarrelsome. But what might be a bad character trait of mine, or a good one, is that I don't let anyone push me around. I stand up for myself. And most of the time, I do it quite well. And then during my studies, the teaching degree, it wasn't really like I'd say my calling is being a teacher. But the opportunity presented itself. I got a spot at the university in Heidelberg. I went there for the secondary school teacher training. I could continue my music. And I could continue my flying. Gliders by then. And also continue with sailplanes. And while doing that, I got into dance music. And I became the entertainer very quickly.

That means even though I'm a drummer, it's not always convenient. The guitarist is best because they stand up front and everyone can see them. At some point with us, everyone started saying, "Man, Charlie, you do the announcement now. Greet the people." And then I did it. And I watched a bit. We always had entertainers in the program who would lead the audience through the evening. I realized it's not actually that complicated—how to address the people and how to create a good atmosphere. Tell a little joke or something. It was fun. I could sing too. By the way, I had singing lessons for two years at the university. And then I thought, "Come on, I'll combine it all now." And it was fun.

Maybe, I hope it didn't come across as me being a show-off. You experienced it a few times.

If I came across as a self-promoter, I'm sorry. But I did it gladly.

I wouldn't see it in a negative sense as being self-indulgent; you just presented yourself. But that's just who you are, I'd say.

I don't think anyone would take offense at that point. I'm glad to hear that. But does a chairman, who then speaks in front of such meetings or regional assemblies and then the big annual general meeting, for example, does a chairman also have to have entertainer qualities?

Maybe not entertainer qualities like the ones you've experienced with me—like how I might just break into song when we're saying goodbye to a managing director or something.

But a bit of a feel for the mood in the room. He should have that. And then, at the right time, using the right words—that's also a form of entertainment—to bring the groups back together. And maybe speak a word of authority once in a while. In 25 years, I've only gotten loud three—or four—times. And I almost felt bad for getting loud. And Klaus Tenzler, who was with me for a long time—we were together, he was the Managing Director, I was the Chairman—he said, "Man, Charlie, when you thunder, they flinch down there. They don't know anything like that. That's a wonderful weapon you have there."

And keep them well-hidden for when we need them again. Although, thundering isn't what I actually want at all. But I can thunder if I have to.

One thing you've always stood out to me at these annual general meetings is your delivery. And maybe not in a DJ sense, but let's say a "word jockey" sense—someone who finds the right words at the right time. And part of that with you was how you'd repeatedly say, "Let me tell you a short story." It would then drift off in some way and lighten the mood again. So you're also an incredibly good storyteller. That's how I've always experienced you. You've traveled a lot as chairman, been to many clubs on-site, many events, and other things. You've probably experienced many, perhaps even some bizarre stories. Is there something like a top three, or just a top one, where you'd say, that was basically the most bizarre thing I personally experienced as chairman?

Yeah, I'll have to think about that for a moment.

Yeah, "Furt im Wald" just popped into my head, although there was some conflict there too, but I don't want to talk about that right now. We had the club evening there. That's also a way of saying thank you to the club chairpersons, which we used to always do, but we might have to skip it this year. We're still mulling it over. But we want to go ahead with the general assembly. And we always had international guests there. That's how Europe grew together. We are co-founders of the European Union, well, the EHPU, the Paragliding Union. And at the beginning, we had a president, Gerard Blondin from France. He was a Knight of the Legion of Honour.

Always dressed to the nines. By the way, he invented the César, the French film award. We got along very well. He didn't speak English, but I can speak quite decent French. We always talked a lot. And then we had the Furt im Wald, they did knight's dinners. So on the evening of the clubs before the general assembly. And at first, I couldn't imagine what was going to happen. And actually, today, people are eating with their hands.

No cutlery. And the bones are thrown behind you. And they just completely overwhelmed us. Furt im Wald put on a great session. And suddenly I thought, the Knight of the Legion of Honor is sitting here now. For God's sake, this is going to... Now

...he ended up with the Germans. Now it's going to be

super embarrassing. Then there's this market woman with a pretty ample figure, wearing a sort of half-medieval Dirndl, walking through the ranks with a carafe and a ladle full of schnapps, grabbing everyone by the chest and pouring it into their mouths with the ladle. And I wanted to prevent her from going to the Knight of the Legion of Honor. He was just watching, like, "Is she coming to the beer now?" and then she grabbed him. I couldn't stop her. She pressed him against herself and filled him with schnapps. And our Gérard was only surprised for a moment. Then he beamed and said, "Charlie, that was the best experience I've had at your knight's dinners in years."

That was such a crazy story.

And is there a story where you'd say that was the most embarrassing experience you've ever had?

You would have

should have told me that before. I want

yes, to know what comes to your mind spontaneously. What

was was embarrassing?

Maybe there was nothing at all

Awkward.

Can we take a quick break? I think, oh.

That's just rattling in the background now. We're not taking a break. I'm just asking something completely different. And then maybe it'll come up again.

Let's talk a bit about your aviation career. Because you're not just the chairman now, you also fly for real.

When I arrived here, you told me that you can see the launch site at Ölberg near Heidelberg from here, so Schriesheim-Ölberg. I believe you also got that one certified,

...or? I was the first one to fly it. With the glider? With the glider. I was 77, well, 76. I took my first leap in the Odenwald in 1975. Did you...

did you teach yourself back then?

Yes, inevitably. At the beginning, I went there. There was already a flight school, but it wasn't a flight school like we know them today. They were self-taught people who then trained other self-taught people. But they were already quite far along. That was Georg Trautmann, who was called Heinz Schorsch back then in the Odenwald. And that was already impressive. They flew down a small hump with those very simple Rockalos, they even had a retrieval vehicle. They pulled the kites back up like a tripod. So that was great. You got throughput. You didn't have to hike up every time. And I heard about it, actually it was Mike Hager, thermals first, how many as well, in his flight from the Zugspitze electrified me. Then I watched it in the Odenwald. I actually found it quite funny, droll somehow.

And at the same time, I was a bit disappointed. Hager flew from 2,000 or 3,000 meters off the Zugspitze. It's 3,000. And there, they just wobbled down about 50 meters and tumbled off. And then I was a bit disappointed. I thought, oh, hang gliding isn't that far along yet. And then I also asked, can I try one of those kites? And they were like, yeah, you take it up, lift it, run, and stuff. And then I ran up there on a meadow. And then I really did a short lift-off. And somehow, I liked it. And at the same time, man, it really is... And then I even ran into a fence, because I was used to "stick left." But that's wrong, because if the stick is left, you fly right. I was a...

a bit frustrated at home. That means, stick left, you already had a glider license back then and had already done a lot of gliding. Yes, of course.

I started soaring at 16, and I can tell you this, dear listeners: I spent my best youth years at the soaring field. Even though I was out there from morning till night, that was my life. Hang gliding then complemented that. But soaring was always beautiful. If you like those clubs, all that club stuff around it, of course. And I even flew in competitions during my time as a glider pilot. Not far. I flew along in my state championships. As I said, I was always so average. Being average isn't necessarily a bad thing. You've tried everything.

tried. Everything at once.

tried. Pushed into the middle. And then, because if I had been at the top, I would have become world champion. So I was only average. And I already had these pilot licenses, they were called back then, and everything. And then you steer, you know, stick left, the plane flies left. And then control stick left. Poof, you fly right into the fence. And then I thought, well, I've understood the basics now, but I don't like the technique yet. Then I waited for a while and in 1976 the fever started again. And then an article appeared in the hang gliding magazine, which had just come out back then, in the first, second, third issue; there was a flight captain, whom I met later, Dieter Löcke. Unfortunately, he crashed with his biplane. He had been flying a new German hang glider, the Adler.

But that was a copy of American kites. The Germans copied everything that came from America because America was leading the way. And the Adler was built in Munich, by Bichlmeier. Löcke flew seven kilometers at the Wasserkuppe with a variometer. I was electrified. Imagine, they have a variometer with them and he flies seven kilometers. Now that's heading towards soaring. Then I went back to the Odenwald and said, folks, they fly Adlers and Flamingos there. Yeah, not with us. The Buckel isn't suitable. Firstly, they fly way too far, they fly into the trees. Secondly, only our best fly them, and for them, it's already outstanding. A kite like the Adler is a high-performance machine.

Then I said, man, come on, I'll sell you one like that. For God's sake, even if we sell it, you won't get it. You're not even a real kite flyer yet. Oh, I thought, oops. Then I looked around to see where I could get an Adler. There was a fake jumper, a Wiesloch. He has Adlers too. He sold everything. Then I say, can I get an Adler with a Vario from you? He says, yes, you can have an Adler and a Vario too. So I bought an Adler with a Vario and then I went secretly to their practice slope and actually almost flew into the trees from half-height. That's when I knew, the glide angle is twice as good as those old Rogalos. And then I went secretly to the Buckel in the Odenwald and kept doing running exercises with the Adler. It already had ten meters of span wire.

And then one evening, it was as beautiful as my first solo flight in a glider, one evening there was a headwind and then I took off, Lucian. It was only five seconds, but until then, they were the most beautiful seconds of my life. When you've been running, always with that rattling and the lines clattering and the ropes clattering and the sail clanking, and suddenly it becomes completely quiet. And suddenly it goes like this

it must have been Lilienthal. He must have cried afterwards. I almost cried too. I thought, that's it, that's it. This is insane. And then I drove straight to Tannheim and flew from the Neunerköpfel. From 50 meters of slope to 800 meters. I wouldn't do that today, but it all went well and I was stoked. That was my flying. And now here it comes, a year later, I kept looking in the Odenwald, where can you fly. In the Odenwald, we only ever flew from such small bumps and then we already drove to the Alps and so on. And my old glider instructor, Lenz, Ali Lenz, an old fighter pilot in the First World War, in the Second World War, he said, Charlie, we are there at the quarry in Schriesheim with the SG 38, I was there in 1938

with rubber bands on. In the Seilstadt, they flew in the Hitler Youth. I say, Ali, yes, there used to be horse-drawn carriages, they pulled the glider up. There were Zögling and SG 38, and then he says, and we went down into the valley, and once I even flew along the slope all the way into the Neckar valley. Look to see if it's possible there. And I had already driven past there three times, everything overgrown. Then I walked through the forest again, got up onto the plateau, but it was all blocked with trees. And then I noticed, those were all birches, young trees. And then I thought, young trees, they haven't been standing there for very long. That used to be a plateau. And I went to the front edge of the plateau, then ran down between the trees, and found a steel cable, an old, rotten one.

There was still an enamel sign hanging there. It said, barely legible, "Attention: Flight Operations." So I had found the old launch site of those SG 38 planes. But it was overgrown. I went further down and came out to the left of the quarry, and there was a waste heap. Whatever wasn't needed from the quarry was always dumped down there, and because of that, the trees didn't grow properly. And then I thought, man, kids, you can't see that from below. If you clear out two or three of those small bushes, trees, you could fly. A 280-meter height difference, that's substantial. And a few days later, I was already out in the forest again in the car. I had tools with me, and the hunting leaseholder came towards me.

What are you doing in the forest? No one is allowed to drive through here. Oh, I thought, what a pain. It starts and before you know it, you're back out. My brain was racing. What do you have on that roof? He said, yes.

I was already taking photos and filming back then. Then I said, I'm going into the quarry to film animals. That's my camouflage tent up in there, and I'm going to set up my camera in the quarry. Wow, I thought, did you just come up with that? He got a bit friendlier. He said, yes, but you're not allowed to drive here. Without a permit. Please drive out again. Get a permit from the city. And please don't drive around anymore. I turned around and drove out. On the way, I ran into a forest ranger. Back then, nobody knew what kite flying was. He's jogging along and suddenly screams in a real North German accent, "Is that a kite?"

And I say, not so loud. Man, not so loud. Why? I say, I just got kicked out by the tenant, the hunting tenant. What's going on here? I say, man, where do you live? It was my neighbor. Jürgen Trete helped me. A few days later he said, look, we'll do this. We'll put the kite on the bike and then no one can kick us out. And then we hiked up to the launch site with provisions, my kite on the bike. But we'd already made it for a day. You're not allowed to cut down small trees like that anymore either. And then the eagle just passed right by, and Jürgen Trete had the camera with him.

And I say, Jürgen, you're recording everything now. My heart was in my boots, you can imagine. You're recording everything. If it goes wrong, we can reconstruct the accident with your photos. I was serious. Then the wind came from the front. I took off from behind. Today, we'd be standing in the slope. Back then, we didn't know that yet. Took off from behind, sprinted over the edge, out. The eagle flew. I flew to the left. I didn't even lose altitude. I was so excited, I didn't even notice that I wasn't losing any altitude at all. I knew the slope as a glider, mind you. Now I'm to the left, then again to the right, turned, and did some somersaults at the top out of pure excitement. Back to the left, I'd already picked out a field below where I could land. I landed, packed up the eagle real quick. I let the yodel go.

Then someone else came back from the vineyards. Everything packed up. Jürgen came down with the car. I said, come on, get out of here fast. Subversive. Disappear real quick. No one can see this. Whoosh. Gone in a flash. I was... heart. There's nothing more beautiful. And that's how I first decorated the hallway back then. And that shaky picture hanging in the hallway, I'll show you that later. That's the first, very first launch here in Schriesheim from the Ölberg. Jürgen turned, was so nervous that he even made the picture shaky. But at least we have it. And then I slowly told the flyers in my circle that I have a slope there. And what was very important, Lucian, we didn't fly, but I was already so clever, as a glider pilot you learn: Watch out for the authorities.

First, I went to the landing field owners, to the farmers. I asked them if I was allowed to land there. And then I went to the mayor and asked. The mayor, that, that, that was well-known here, a, a sports-loving man, right. He said, "Oh, really, kite flying? Oh, I saw that on vacation. Great. Yes, is that allowed?" I said, "It should be." He said, "Yes, but haven't you tried it?" I said, "Yes, I'm not allowed to say it." "Oh, it's allowed? Good, good. Man, come on, you'll get a transit permit right away. Now you can drive up." I said, "Yes,"

I've forgotten the name. The older officials sometimes have this kind of old-school wisdom. And he says, "Mr. Just, where do you want to fly? Over the Ölberg? The gliders always fly along there." I say, "Yes, I flew along there several times as a young glider pilot too." He goes, "Wow, great, you can fly with the glider. You can just fly along there right now." I say, "Yes, no, I'm not allowed to fly a route." Back then, we weren't allowed to fly routes. And he said, "Yes, well, that doesn't matter. And what are we doing now?" I say, "It's possible." He says, "Yes, then why don't you give it a try? Write it down. You're getting a permit from me now. How long do you need it for?" Six months. Six months out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, report, and then we'll see how it goes. Then I got my buddies. We did a lot of flights, documented everything.

He called back later. Ah, he said I have to come by now. Let's take a look at it. We arrived, and there was fog. Fog everywhere. I thought, oh god, he can't see at all that we're landing next to the road and that there's a grove of trees and everything. And then I say, I'm sorry, now you're coming in the fog and you can't see anything. I thought, oh well, it doesn't matter. You have to know if it's possible. So, there are reasonable officials too, right? And then we're standing there by the road. Do you have to fly over the road? I say, normally no, but if the wind shifts, we might go over it. Well, just make sure you go over there in a way that doesn't obstruct anyone. I say, let's put up signs. No, for God's sake, all the cars will stop, he said, no signs. I say, otherwise you'll have problems. No, he says, in Frankfurt they thunder in at 30 meters, but nobody gets upset about the highway.

They can fly over it with the kite, too. We got the terrain, Lucian, and there are still over 100 members in the club today, and it's a beautiful slope for flying.

That was with your kite, even in the early days when you were constantly flying. When did paragliding actually come into the picture? And did it come about because you saw, well, I'm here in the DAV and everyone is flying, paragliding is booming, and I actually enjoy kite flying. And did you say, well, I just have to give it a try? Or was it...

really?

So there is a true

...story about that, but I think your blog will get too long if I tell you everything. So, tell it all.

Give me the short version of that.

Okay, I'll try it, I'll try it. So, I think it's well known that after I finished my service, I became a self-employed film producer and also made aviation films. Those were my favorites to make. And I was also lucky enough to have, I think, five or six of my films awarded in total, always in Saint-Hilaire. And in 1984

I had a film in the competition and came back to Saint-Hilaire. And my film ran in the competition, and there was another film running as well. One by a journalist from French television, who had filmed a few skydivers who were paragliding. That was Jean-Claude Beton and Gérard Bosson, who were already practicing target landings with parachutes in Mieuxy at the time. They didn't even want to go paragliding. They just wanted to save the money for the plane so they could practice the target landing down below. And Gérard told me once that he said his buddies came over and said, "Hey, we want to fly too." He says, suddenly I thought, I'll do that at school. Now you can even make money with that.

And she showed how they train them and how the people there tumble around. And the audience went wild. And I still remember, Peter Janssen was there at the time, and Klaus Tenzler. The three of us went down to Saint-Hilaire. It was always funny to get started. And we sat there and slapped our thighs whenever a few more tumbled over and so on. And at some point I thought, man, this is already crazy. A bit of material. So, this could become a movement, but I wasn't sure. And Peter Janssen said to me, Charlie, look at that. That has no chance. That has no future, the way they tumble around. I was so torn and thought, he's probably right. What he was right about was that we didn't have any steep slopes to fly like the French.

A year later, I came back to Saint-Hilaire, and a path had been cleared, and I saw three of those paragliders in the air. Lucia, in one year, a scene had already emerged. That was 1985. And I had a film competition again, and Pierre Pohl, who always does the hosting there, was a kite flying instructor and paraglider instructor there at the time, and he said, Charlie, we're doing it for the filmmakers who are in the competition, if they want, they can do a first paraglider flight. I say, I only fly surface. No, come on, hang on there for a bit. Then I got a wonderful briefing, for an hour, and then I flew down from the top of Saint-Hilaire. Was that your first flight? That was my first flight. Directly the 800 meters from Saint-Hilaire? Straight down.

I almost pissed myself out of fear. The thing was creaking and cracking up there, and the seat wasn't steady at all. The seat was wobbling, you know? I mean, obviously, you know? You're flying a paraglider. I am too.

We have to have the minute. Pierre Paul told me the following back then, and it was actually revolutionary. He said, Charlie, forget everything you know about hang gliding. The hang glider does what you want. You take your control bar, you move the control bar to the right and the hang glider goes to the left when running, and so on. With the paraglider, you forget all that. Now the paraglider tells you what you have to do. That was revolutionary. Once you've pulled the paraglider up and it's above you, make sure it doesn't collapse. If it goes to the left, you have to follow it. Then you have to go to the left. You can brake, but don't just brake. Go under it. Always stay under this glider with your body.

And I also learned back then to stretch my arms down and pull up. That's how I took off, trembling with fear. I also said to him, look, I'm not wearing a helmet now, nor do I have a rescue parachute with me. And he said, why a rescue parachute? You have a glider over you. What else do you want now? A rescue parachute? Well, it was an experience that made me think, I don't know if I want to do it a second time. By the time I got home, the wave had already washed over from France to Switzerland to Austria. It was going so well. Germany was once again lagging behind. And we thought once again that we had to do a testing program for things that had already been tested abroad. But we learned that very quickly. Don't test anything that others are already doing.

And then we brought in the Swiss flight instructors and trained the first flight instructors on the paraglider. And that's how the movement started in Germany. And I didn't get back into paragliding until three years later and learned paragliding then.

Today, if I understood correctly, you only fly paragliders now, or rather, no more kites. You still do other things too. Why did you stop kite flying?

...given up? I was flying the last training kites at the flight school until two years ago. We founded a club flight school here. I asked my fellow pilots if I could train a few more assistants. I was a kite instructor trainer too, and I recruited two assistants who are now running the flight school, the club flight school. And even there, when I flew the kites in the training slope for the last few times, I noticed, first of all, I've gotten a bit stronger and heavier, and second, I once sprained my foot a bit and was out of commission for quite a long time, and then I thought, if I had to say what I'd most like to fly, I'd fly the Athos, the wing, because I come from the wing. I flew the Flätschling, which was already a wing back in the 70s, 80s, and the Athos would be my aircraft today.

But the Athos is heavy, it weighs almost 40 kilograms, and I flew it in F-tow. But if I imagine myself standing on the mountain with the Athos, first of all the high-altitude lift, and if I imagine having a failed launch at my age—I'll be 70 next year—I wouldn't make it out of the hospital. So reason told me to leave it; the risk of injury is just too high now. By the way, Karl Slesak says everyone over 60 should actually only fly very cautiously or not at all. That

means, now you only fly paraglider. How much do you still get to fly, or how much time do you still take to fly?

To be honest, I've only done two small flights on the practice slope this year, and last year I had four or five flights. However, one of those was a nice flight on vacation. I started above Annecy for over two hours and flew thermals. That was really fun. And otherwise, I'm also around what Karl says—most pilots average about 15 to 20 flights a year. I don't do more than that.

rather less. And do you then follow Karl's recommendation and say, well, at my age, I'll fly an A-glider now?

Yes, of course. First, Karl recommended the Susi to me, but I have to be very clear, I had the Phantom before that, right? Was it called the Phantom? No, not from Nova, there was a one-seater a few years ago. Philou. The Philou, not Phantom, Philou. I liked flying that one, the Philou, it was also like a one- to two-seater, I think. Then at some point I switched to the Susi that Karl recommended, and I have to be honest, I wasn't really happy with the Susi for those two years. Maybe I was too heavy for the Susi, some say, but it was like a tractor for me—the brakes, I mean, I had to pull around the corner, that was worse than a two-seater. And then I was with a group in Africa

and then I flew an Advance A glider, the Alpha, and it was great. And then I got another Alpha, but I haven't flown anything other than an Alpha since then.

Do a little creative exercise for me—you can complete sentences with whatever comes to mind spontaneously. You don't have to tell long stories now, but maybe a story will emerge from it; you never know with you, but it's certainly possible. Charlie, flying for me is the

fulfillment of an ancient dream. He dared it, man, it's so daring, but what is it? But you have to tell yourself a story. I knew it, but please. My first encounter with flying was Struwelpeter. Probably nobody knows him anymore. Do you still know Struwelpeter? Oh, you still know him.

I had it as a book with some really gruesome illustrations. Yeah, that

I think the author was called Dr. Hoffmann, I believe. It was quite deterrent, with the thumbs being cut off and everything. By the way, do you know that it already addresses racism, racism in there? Do you know the story against racism? No, but we'll leave that out for now. Okay, then, I have to say it word for word now, because that's how it's written, so take a look at the story of the Moors. So, it was already very progressive back then, but the rest was, of course, really mutilations and burned children and everything, because they had done, well, bad, so terrible things. And one was the flying Robert, he came at the very end. And the Robert, if, I think it goes like this, when the wind comes rushing down and the wind lashes the trees, girls or boys stay nicely at home in their rooms.

But Robert thought, no, it must be wonderful outside right now. And so Robert takes a big umbrella and when it's storming the hardest, he goes out and it lifts him up and he flies and flies and in the end it says, until he hit the clouds. Yeah, so they wanted to prevent the children from going outside in bad weather and doing nonsense with the umbrella and all that. The first thing I did, I waited for the first storm and took my grandpa's umbrella—he had these huge black umbrellas—then I went out with the umbrella. I thought, now I'm going to do the Robert. I was so excited. I went out, a gust of wind came and it tore the glider apart and then it flipped upwards and a few of the rods flew off.

Wow, I thought, that's not true at all, what they're saying about the flying Robert. I packed the glider back up and put it in the corner. Wow, did I get a telling-off from Grandpa, huh. But that was my first encounter with flying. I was maybe five years old or something. And since then, this virus has been sitting there. The

first flight attempts at the age of five.

Very nice. I had during the

Flying with real fear,

When? When I started with my wife—who wasn't my wife back then—in Annecy with the two-seater glider in front of a cold front, and even though I knew the weather, I'd messed up and didn't realize the front was already over the lake. And then I got scared, not just for myself, but also for the young girl next to me. And then I centered my fall as well as I ever have in my life and came in after over half an hour of flying backwards—I mean, we were flying forward, but the wind pushed us backwards toward the old landing field, and the buddies down there pulled us down from the air. That was my worst flight with a lot of responsibility, and where I've learned my lesson: I'm never doing something like that again, never.

Quick side question, you mentioned your foot mishap earlier. Have you ever had an accident while flying in any way?

My worst injuries, knock on wood, were a broken arm, a dislocated arm, and a foot—that was actually a ligament tear, a ligament tear in my left foot. I didn't have anything else. But

everything with kites, it sounds like that.

No, no, no. One of the injuries was also with a paraglider. Okay. But in the start run, in the start run, mind you, I didn't crash that hard or anything. So I never had such hard landings that I got injured.

When I step down from the board, what I'll miss the most is...

Meeting wonderful people like this and this community of like-minded individuals. If I were a young pilot again today, then what would I do? I would start with skydiving.

Basejumping might be too risky for me. Maybe speed flying, that's still a hot topic with those little wings. And then, as I got older, I'd slowly add kite flying, then paragliding, and finally, what I do now—I did it at the beginning, of course—I'd move on to soaring.

Why kite flying before paragliding? Because it still takes a little bit...

requires more physical fitness if you learn kite flying than paragliding.

Now I'm coming back to a point, maybe it's had an effect by now. During your time as CEO, which situation was the most embarrassing for me?

I didn't have any time during that period to think about what was the most embarrassing.

Well, it could have been that your brain was still working in the background somehow. Then let's

Let it be. There was probably something embarrassing, Lucian, there definitely was. Everyone has experienced that. Maybe you just repress it faster if it was too embarrassing.

Let's touch on your filmmaking as our penultimate short topic. You mentioned it earlier—you've had award-winning films in Annecy and such. So, besides aviation, filmmaking has always been a major passion of yours. You also make money from it, since you have a film production company that you run. But did that actually start as a hobby too? Like how flying was a hobby and then it actually became a way of life?

Yeah, at first it was a hobby—back in college, there was a photography club. I've always been a bit interested in image composition. And what also influenced me as a musician, first of all, was the work in recording studios. I learned about microphone work and how the mixing desks work, which also has something to do with filmmaking. And then, of course, we had a few TV appearances, which was exciting. They were still filming with Arriflex and so on. I found that highly interesting and then, during my studies—so first it was the photography club, then my studies and the university's internal television in Heidelberg, which was already very well-equipped.

And I bought myself a Super 8 camera, experimented with it, and even got my first film job—that's why I went kite flying with the Super 8 camera for Bayerischer Rundfunk and even got paid a few marks for it. And in that university television station, they had set up the studio with two Arriflexes, with blimps—so they were soundproofed—with boom mics, everything that goes with it. And they had an older cameraman there, a cinema cameraman, who had worked in television for the last few years, filming university films. And when I discovered that, I was in that television studio every free minute. And that's where I learned how to handle those 16 and 35 millimeter cameras.

We then had competitions to see who could load the cassette the fastest and stuff. So, I learned it from the ground up there. When I wasn't at the university—not the film school, but there. And suddenly it was clear that filming was going to be more than just a hobby for me. And that would have... well, my idea later was, I'll do the teaching, then I'll finish the teaching, I'll do the two state exams, everything finished, I even studied media pedagogy. And then I thought, I'll enjoy that, now half-time teaching and then, like, for two months

Filming during semester breaks or school holidays. And unfortunately, after some time—I made several attempts—it was rejected by the Ministry of Education on the grounds that jungle teachers have to work for at least five years straight before they can get any leaves of absence. And after a few years at the school, I said, no, now I have to decide. And then I decided on filmmaking, but I was lucky that I could bridge the transition out of the teaching profession, earn money, with the dance music. Maybe I also learned a bit of show business there; I played in the show band.

and in that show band, I made good money and was able to finish my studies. I studied my studies properly, and then I also bridged the time when I left teaching by continuing to make music and building up my film production. In 1987, I registered as a self-employed filmmaker, and then right away—a little tip for everyone active in the arts, check out the Künstlersozialkasse, it's a great thing. I joined the Künstlersozialkasse, which was good because it also served as my pension. Did you do aviation films from the very beginning? The first ones were actually aviation films, but they were still partly private, but I did actually get my first film commission from Peter Janssen at the DHV.

That was the Bayerischer Rundfunk. An editor had gone ahead and said that the Bayerischer Rundfunk was at the Tegelberg and had done something about the aircraft and also about Neuschwanstein Castle. And then they—this was common back then, it was all with 16mm cameras—they would repeatedly ask the hang glider pilot if they would take a camera with them for us. "Hey, just hook it up." And then one of these pilots was seriously injured because he flew into the gondola, into the cable car, after takeoff. And he got a lawyer, and then the Bayerischer Rundfunk had to pay a lot of money because it was treated like a commission. As a result, the Bayerischer Rundfunk didn't just attach cameras anywhere anymore; instead, they called the DHV and asked, "Do you have someone who can fly with a camera for us?"

One day Peter called me, "Charlie, they're filming at the Rauschberg. They want to make a show later, Daschauher, it was some kind of youth program. And they need someone to fly with a camera." So I went there; the fee wasn't high, but at least it was a fee. And I flew for the two 16mm cameras and we did the shots. I was already really hooked on it anyway—man, that could be a job, it was fun.

You're saying, two 16mm cameras at the same time. You were operating both of them in the air and they had those really large reels, because 16mm was quite heavy. I

had 18kg on the Fletchling, 9kg on the right and left. Today with the GoPros, we don't even know—I don't know—what a relief that is. And those were the same cameras they called the "Catastrophe-Aris." Arriflex is a renowned company in Munich. Catastrophe-Aris had the Thermik Hager with them on their big tour through California. And you can see them in the film, how they were mounted. They already had remote controls with cables and such. And when the team arrived, they said, "Charlie, by the way, we have the cameras with us that Thermik Hager had, the Catastrophe-Aris." And I say, Catastrophe-Aris? Why Catastrophe-Aris? Yeah, it's not bad for them when they go.

It turned into a beautiful film. Look at that. And the editor who did it back then—oh, now we're getting to an embarrassing thing. But as chairman, you wanted to be embarrassing.

At least you can tell that one embarrassing story, then we can at least cross that topic off the list.

Yeah, it was embarrassing. We were filming at the Hochplatte with Schorsch Steffel, who was a hang gliding pioneer. And Schorsch Steffel said, "Look, just watch out for me, don't cause too much of a fuss. Don't be loud, film quietly, I don't want any commotion or anything." And we said, "Yeah, we will." The editor was Michael Kreitmeier—that's a name I'm allowed to say. Michael Kreitmeier invented "Kunst und Krempel," by the way, at Bayerischer Rundfunk. Back then, he was like me, we were young men. And he had just started hang gliding, Michael. And that's how it happened with him too. We were introducing hang gliding in this youth program. And I had to fly with these big, heavy cameras. I then also...

Michael Kreitmeier then with the Aris behind him, I flew with the cameras twice, you can see it in the film, I even landed them. Today, I'd be lying flat on my back and would probably end up in the hospital. But back then, I was a sports student, I was lighter and tough and athletic. And I kept flying in front of the camera and landing again. And then Michael Kreitmeier suddenly says, Charlie, now I'm flying with cameras too. I say, don't do that. It's not without risk. But imagine the film, if I'm filming it myself and everything. I say, Michael, I don't know. Man, you're a flight instructor too, you can't let me do this. I'm saying exactly as a flight instructor, I don't actually want to let you do it. So, look, the wind is right, we're doing everything, you set everything up and I'll watch out and all that. He was like that, then I said, Michael, I have a bad feeling.

Then he says, if you don't do it, I'll do it anyway, simple. Bam. So I set everything up for him. He took off. I followed behind. Everything looked fine. He flies ahead of me, because it was also said that I should fly ahead, land in front of the camera, and then he flies in, with the O-tone and everything. I land, want to turn around, and suddenly behind me I hear—oh, whoever has heard that will never like it again, will never forget it, will never want to hear it again. When electrical wires come together and there's a short circuit, it whistles and cracks like lightning. Wow, I thought, shit, there's a line. We knew the line was there, I'd discussed everything. And I turn around, and see only the trail of smoke and the kite is lying on the ground, and then I dashed over immediately, the cameraman dashed over immediately, and Michko Greitmeier is already under the kite.

crawled out. He had completely run over the power line, and I almost died there too, because I wanted to pull the two wires from the 380 kV line away from the kite and I was walking towards them because I thought everything was switched off now, and just a meter before I grabbed the line, they switched it back on and the kite was in bright flames and I just jerked my hands back. I learned later that they switch it on three times, automatically. So watch out, people, if you're dealing with lines, they switch on multiple times. A bird could have triggered the short circuit. The kite was completely burned. There was a black cloud of smoke in that valley.

and Mischko was only slightly injured, thank God, or maybe not at all, but we said we'd have it checked just to be safe. The

camera assistant, he then quickly and secretly grabbed the camera out of the burning kite.

That could have cost my flight instructor, what I did with... I mean, it was an embarrassing situation. I confessed it to Peter Janssen too. He said, "Good grief, I'm glad he didn't die, otherwise you would have had some real, real problems." And then this happened. Suddenly, first the rescue helicopter arrived, and after the rescue helicopter, four rescue vehicles came. And we had promised Steffel Schorsch that it would be kept very quiet there. And in the end, the entire rescue squad was there. Yeah,

But as a pilot, you learn that over and over again—whenever there's a plane crash, the entire rescue chain is deployed. I know that from our area too. Someone is in the tree area, they give notice, nothing happened, but someone already reported it and suddenly you hear sirens and five emergency vehicles arrive with their lights on, and you say again, "Oh, that wasn't necessary," but that's just how it is. Charlie, let's slowly head towards the end, but I'd like to do a little look ahead with you now, namely,

where your retirement at the DHV sort of begins, or within the framework of the DHV. I'm just going to assume that the DHV probably can't avoid it—I don't know if it's already at the annual general assembly, but you'll certainly become honorary chairman too, because that honor, I'm telling you now, will surely be bestowed upon a person like that. But how do you see your future with or for the DHV, or are you saying, no, I'm stepping out now and really taking it easy? And if you do take it easy, how do you want to spend that time?

No, definitely not retiring completely. I'm going to keep flying. I'll continue flying gliders, and I'll also keep flying my sailplanes—and motorplanes, though not my own, I always charter them, unfortunately I don't have that much money. But I'd still like to sit somewhere in the back rows at a general assembly in the DHV as a completely normal delegate and see how my association, how my association develops. So, I still want to stay in this community with these people who have accompanied me—you could say for half a lifetime—and whom I accompany.

Then let's keep it that way. Charlie, may you remain with our community for a long time to come. I thank you for these very beautiful, very colorful, rambling in all sorts of directions—or "overflowing" is the wrong word—beautifully told, well, immersive narratives, which basically fulfill exactly what I expected. You bring out so many stories, and you have to prod a little, and if you were to prod three other spots, probably 30 other stories would come out. Charlie, thank you for that. Thank you for your time as chairman, as storyteller, as entertainer, but also for what you have done for the entire aviation community. I think I can now speak on behalf of all the other pilots and take the liberty of simply saying thank you from all of them.

Thank you,

Lucian Haas, that's very kind of you, and our conversation has also sparked some ideas, because maybe—I've been asked again and again, Charlie, please write all of this down. It will be lost if you're no longer here or no longer able to write it down. Maybe I'll write some of it down and occasionally ask if the DHV is interested, although I don't know if the young people are that interested, Lucian. Are young pilots interested in old stories from old men?

If they're told well, and there are so many crazy people who are interested in all sorts of things, and there are fashions that come and go and come back again, so why not also deal with the crazy times of the old pilots, who were young pilots back then? It really was such a different, crazy time—I didn't experience it at all, by my time everything was already regulated, and you still talk about that great freedom and we didn't want to give it up, and I even learned hang gliding myself and then hiked up onto their meadow or something. Those are conditions you can't even imagine today. But of course, there are also ideas about aviation in there, and also about the freedom of flight, and I think everyone still has those kinds of thoughts today, and I think people still quite like to read up on that sometimes.

So, maybe there will be a little story from me every now and then.

Alright, the groundwork is laid for today; for now, it's just in audio format, but maybe you'll read it soon—you can read what other nice stories you have to tell. Thanks, Charlie. Thank you, Lucian Haas.

This was episode number 68 of Podz-Glidz, featuring Charlie Jöst in conversation with Lucian Haas. As always, there is a series of additional links in the show notes for this episode on Lu-Glidz. You can find the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz online at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. Lu-Glidz is spelled l-u-g-l-i-d-z. If you feel well-informed and also well-entertained as a listener of Podz-Glidz and a reader of Lu-Glidz, I would be happy if you supported my work as a patron. Your one-time or recurring contribution is entirely up to you. In other words, you can give as much as you want. For those who can't decide what amount might be appropriate, I'll make a truly non-binding suggestion.

How about one euro per podcast episode and two euros per reading month on Lu-Glidz? Of course, you can listen to a few episodes first and read Lu-Glidz over several months, and then make a lump-sum contribution. Payments are very easy via PayPal or bank transfer. You can find all the necessary details on my blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the Support page. Until next time. Ciao.