I am nowhere less of a mother than in the air. And that's the beauty of going up into the air. That feeling of being free, alive, and self-determined is so deeply anchored in me. Aviation gives me that. This determination, being brave, being self-determined. Three values that are very, very important to me, which I can live out while flying.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Judith
Theuria and
Lucian Haas at the microphone.
Judith Theuria from Switzerland might still be known to many pilots by her maiden name, Judith Zweifel. In the 2000s, she was one of the most well-known acrobatic pilots and, above all, one of the most successful. At World Cup competitions, she flew at the very top. And in one Swiss Championship, she even finished in second place. Overall among all the men, mind you. She mastered her greatest challenge when she became the first woman to learn the Infinity Tumbling. There is even a noteworthy documentary by Swiss television about her path there, which was dotted with some setbacks. In 2011, Judith became a mother, and with two children now, acrobatic flying took a backseat for a longer period.
However, not flying as such. That is still a matter of the heart for Judith and the source of her feelings of freedom. But while she used to go paragliding for acrobatics mostly by herself, the 44-year-old now often seeks the sense of community when flying. She finds this most often when she takes to the air together with other women. In this episode 71 of Podz-Glidz, I speak with Judith about, among other things, what constitutes the female character of paragliding, why it is so valuable, and why men could also benefit from it. Judith talks about the large women's flying festival she co-organizes, the special togetherness at flight courses and trips for women only that she leads, and the hope that such offers could inspire more women to take up paragliding in the future and, above all, keep them hooked.
Of course, Judith's acrobatic past and perhaps also her future are discussed, as well as the question of what it's like as a pilot to be married to a well-known sports psychologist in the scene, namely Thomas Törrier, Kriegel's X-Alp supporter.
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Judith, when did you last fly your Infinity Tumbling?
That was ten years ago, or maybe even 2010, I think.
Did you know back then that this would be the last time you'd do something like that for the time being?
So no, no, of course not, no. I never thought about it during each maneuver, whether it would be the last time. That would have seemed a bit macabre to me.
How do you remember that?
Infinity flying in and of itself.
Yeah, or also that last one, but also in and of itself. Can you tell it the same way?
Well, I don't know, I can't really remember the last flight where I flew an Infinity. I didn't keep it in my mind in any special way. But flying an Infinity in general, that's incredible. It's incredibly beautiful. I mean, it's something like, the glider, it's filled so differently. It's different, it moves differently. In the moment it passes under you, that's something incredibly beautiful. And I'm extremely grateful that I got to experience that.
I've never experienced anything like that. So, what is so beautiful about it—is it simply the fact that a glider dives under you? Is that just a beauty? Yes. That there's such a thrill and such an adrenaline rush? Or is it also an image for you, an aesthetic, beautiful image?
Yes, and also as a feeling of flight. I mean, every other figure you fly has a forward motion in it and then it somehow stops abruptly. Or in a wing-over, it's also very dynamic. But with this infinity, the glider pulls, it keeps pulling. And it moves and works within itself. It's just a very special flight situation. So for me, hanging under the glider and experiencing this feeling of flight, that was very, very special. And also, of course, after practicing and trying for so long to get there.
Do you ever miss that feeling? Yes,
Right now. Now that you've triggered that longing in me. Yes, now I miss it. Thanks for that.
Well, you just hinted at it. The Infinity was a maneuver you worked toward for quite a long time. There's even a half-hour documentary about it on Swiss television. Why did you want to achieve that specific maneuver so badly back then?
So I think it's because I had been seeing it in my circle for a long time back then. How the pilots would train feverishly to pull it off.
It was also just a fascination, the aesthetics of the maneuver, that symmetry. And yeah, at some point I thought, this could be my next step. I felt ready for it, and for me, it was just the icing on the cake, or the cherry on top, as we say. But
if I understood that correctly—I watched this film again—you had basically given up on competition flying beforehand. Why was that?
So in the film, I say, do you think I stopped because of that?
Yes, you had an accident.
Yeah, or more, because I didn't feel... because I didn't feel the meaning, the sense of purpose of measuring yourself against others anymore so...
didn't feel that good or right for me anymore. Ultimately, I think it was also just years of flying competitions and a certain sense of fatigue. And to be honest, these competitions were always very stressful for me, or I wasn't as playful as I observed other pilots, how they participated with such joy and in such a playful way. For me, it was always a bit of a struggle. And at that moment, I just didn't really feel like it. But I knew that neither was going to work, because you always have to be very versatile for a competition. And I knew that Infinity would demand enough from me that I wanted to focus on that.
Maybe also because I can usually just take things one at a time and not do too many things at once.
So, this Infinity competition? But you didn't want to learn it for the competition, did you, but for yourself? You wanted to say, I want to be able to do this maneuver for myself, for whatever reason, for whatever it gives me.
Yes, I wanted to be able to do that. Yes, just like I wanted to be able to fly acrobatics. I just wanted that.
Even if you say now that the competitions didn't actually give you that much fun back then, or rather that you were always very tense and experienced it as a fight. Nevertheless, you were incredibly successful. And in retrospect, you can actually say you're probably still one of the most successful, or the most successful, acro pilots, at least from Switzerland. You won at the World Championships. And something that is pointed out again and again is that you once came in second at a Swiss Championship. But, it has to be said, in the overall ranking, so against many other men who also flew there.
Does that still make you proud today?
Good question. So, the
The results at the competitions, I always felt like I couldn't give my best. And I was often disappointed because of that. So, the Infinity Tumbling and the whole process I went through, that makes me proud, yes. But competition, for me, is like having to perform on command.
For me, that's also a bit of a gamble. Like, how mentally prepared someone is. And it's also a bit of a distorted image. And I think, because for me, I wanted to show and prove my skills. And I never quite managed to do that to my satisfaction. That's why it was so exhausting for me, the competitions. Because I wasn't relaxed at all.
Did you experience that back then, because you were second among many men and stuff like that? Did you feel it somehow? That as a woman, you had entered, in a sense, a male domain? Like, did you feel it, maybe in a positive or a negative way?
So basically, among the pilots, there was already a lot of warmth and camaraderie. It was actually a very nice atmosphere. And I actually always felt very, very comfortable there. And of course, I did notice,
that for many, that was the goal—if they didn't make it into the front part, then the goal was to at least beat the girls or at least leave the women behind. I also think there were certainly pilots who felt they were judged unfairly. Or maybe it was that they perhaps felt our women's bonus...
So, like we talked about, whether we might be judged somehow less harshly or less strictly. I don't know. I don't know if that was the case, but there were surely some dissatisfied people, or some guy who got fewer points for his helicopter but felt that we women hadn't flown as cleanly as they did. So, because we were all in this overall ranking, there were certainly some discrepancies, but on the whole, we were just there to dance and show what we can do. The bad thing for me was just that, since we never had a women's ranking—now I'm saying, during the course of the competition, we never had a women's ranking.
And for me, the goal was always to beat as many guys as possible, or logically. And at this Swiss Championship, where I just finished second, they gave me the women's medal. It said "Woman" at the front, or "Woman" on the back, first place. But I was alone. And the guys got the medal that said "Overall" on the back. And I wasn't okay with them trying to fob me off with a women's medal when I had just somehow flown into that top 3.
And did they also scratch "Overall" onto the back of your medal? Or how did they solve that?
No, that was half a year later. So I already spoke up about it, which wasn't really my style. I think others spoke up too, others from the jury and such, saying that it felt a bit weird and wasn't really right. And then at the Swiss Hang Gliding Association's sports celebration, I snatched that Overall medal away from the person who had it hanging around their neck. But it didn't feel that bad. I really felt like I had a right to it. And that's also the only medal I still have with me, out of any awards from those competitions.
Is it hanging somewhere on the wall?
No, somewhere in the box.
Why do you think paragliding is so heavily dominated by men in the first place?
So I think aviation in general, or sports that are somehow classified as risky by society,
a woman would likely feel more held back from getting into that at all. And yeah, I
I think aviation is already something very time-consuming and uncompromising. And yeah, I can't really tell you.
What led you, as a woman, to dedicate so much time to this, and then also choose the risky—or at least, from the outside, often perceived as risky—variant of agricultural aviation? Which, based on what you just said, would basically be double the effort, since you mentioned that men do it more than women. Why did you seek that out for yourself?
Well, I saw it and I was fascinated. I was thrilled, I wanted to be able to do it. I'll say now, I'm maybe more the hardworking type than the creative one. So, with a lot of hard work, a lot is possible with agro-flying. And I never believed or had the thought that my life could be shortened or that I might have more accidents by being out there in the air.
But you also really invested a lot of time into it, you even quit a job you had before and said, I'm only dedicating myself to this agro paragliding now. What did that give you back then?
So I think having something that you want to do so intensely is kind of a huge gift. I mean, when I go up the gondola 16 times here in Mürren near Interlaken, I can't just do that with willpower and diligence. It was just something inside of me that wanted to keep moving forward, and that enthusiasm and joy—the joy I experienced while doing it—that was something very special.
It was just drive, and also a bit limiting, of course. I didn't want anything else, and I didn't do anything else. But being able to fully commit to something and fully focus on something, that was just...
Your life. Exactly. From your perspective, what would have to happen for more women to get interested in paragliding?
I think more events for women. More women's paragliding festivals. Simply more events where femininity can unfold.
You just mentioned women's aviation festivals. You actually just organized a large women's aviation festival in Lenk, Switzerland, this September with Katrin Ganter and Jutta Reiser. What was it all about, or what was the goal?
Well, I just... I recently read something in a book, Lucian, and it just hits the nail on the head. Veit Lindau wrote in one of his books that miracles become possible when the feminine and the masculine can unfold freely and both poles meet with respect and curiosity. And that's what it's about. So, when I stand at the launch site as a pilot with ten male colleagues, the feminine cannot unfold there. Just as it doesn't unfold when I go for coffee with my friends and somehow badmouth the neighbors and the world. It's about the feminine being able to unfold through this hobby, this paragliding, which connects us, challenges us, which simply...
the emotions, the needs, that it can unfold. Also our perspective on reality. Or even our idea of success. Simply that we share that, and it can blossom and unfold.
How does it look, how do I have to imagine it, what does a female-oriented aviation look like?
I think that being together is more important than the kilometers, I mean the performance. So, being together is more important than the performance.
That we can talk about our needs, that we can exchange ideas, that we experience the same or similar things, that similar things occupy our minds. Simply the exchange and seeing that we aren't standing alone at the launch site with our issues. And that also provides motivation—it's incredibly beautiful to experience an all-female group. How they encourage and support each other and also somehow look at one another, learning from each other.
Everything you just mentioned basically takes place on the ground. So that's the aviation environment. People meet, they talk, they encourage each other, they talk about their problems or the fears they have, or whatever else might come up in those conversations. What is it like when these women actually take to the air? Would you say that women fly differently than men? On average, I mean. Of course, there are all types, and you'll probably find that too. But based on what you experience, would you say that women fly differently than men?
Well, I don't think I've ever thought about that. But I think it depends on how the woman goes into the air. Whether she's intimidated or goes into the air feeling intimidated. Or if she's encouraged. Or how she's able to exchange experiences at the end of the flight and prepare for the next one. So I think,
I don't know, I've never thought about that. But I think it depends on how the woman takes off for that flight. Whether she's anxious or joyful. That surely makes a difference. I don't know. What do you think?
If you take off with a good feeling, you'll probably be more confident once you're in the air. Maybe it also makes a difference if you somehow know that ten pairs of eyes are watching from below or at the launch site, and that they're well-meaning. And you don't feel like you're being monitored to see if you're doing everything exactly right or something like that. What I sometimes experience with women, even in our club or something, is that when there are ten men sitting at the launch site, they tend to get a bit stressed or something. Not with everyone, but I do experience with some that they're probably a bit stiffer, basically. And maybe they're more relaxed among women, because a mistake would be laughed off by everyone and not, oh, here comes the next man immediately jumping in to explain how you should have done it right, should have done it, do it, whatever.
So how men probably like to be there at that point and then jump in.
Yes, very good.
What's the feedback like? I mean, that was your experience. What was the feedback you got from the women who were there as well?
Is it generally them saying, "Wow, I've always been looking for something like this, I've been missing this." "Finally, I can express myself here or take to the air with a different feeling." Or "I feel accepted." Or whatever. What comes out of that?
So, regarding the women's paraglider festival, there's a lot of feedback. Jutta collected it. I believe she's going to process it later. And what I can say more about is these women's camps that I do at Chill Out Paragliding here in Interlaken. For example, last year I did two trial days, just for women. Or also a comeback camp. So, female pilots who haven't flown for a long time and wanted to get back into it.
And yeah, they really, really appreciated this sense of community with like-minded people. They also said they didn't know if it would have made a difference if it had been mixed. And everyone was actually in agreement that it was a nice way to start because it took place in this form, with like-minded people. And the exchange—well, it's just a nice exchange, that they know what the other person is talking about when they talk about an emotion. Because we have the same ones. I'm not saying that this would be for every woman, though, right?
Anchoring, many men would also feel very comfortable with us. But simply, yes. I think it's a nice environment that we can create for many female pilots.
A whole bunch of women from my club were at this women's aviation festival. My wife was among them, for instance. And when they came back, they were all very impressed. And what became really interesting was—I think there were four or five of them—and there are even more women in our club. They started telling others about it, and a women's aviation WhatsApp group was formed directly within the club. Where they said they want to do more together and so on. So in a way, a women's aviation festival becomes like a breeding ground for a new idea. That we as women can actually organize ourselves more. Does that make sense?
Yes, definitely. And I also think we don't want to isolate ourselves. So, it's just about organizing ourselves to be able to bring our perspective into the whole thing. So yeah, that's great. I think the women from your club can hopefully benefit a lot from that.
And you just mentioned Chill-Out Paragliding, where you do these women's flying camps in various ways. I've also seen that at least with some other flight schools, especially over the last year, there's been a trend of starting to offer their own women's flying camps, cross-country flight camps, sometimes just for women or something like that. Do you think there's really such a big demand for that? Because there aren't actually that many women in total, if you take the entire flying population into account. Or is that perhaps exactly the kind of thing that could significantly increase that proportion of women in the overall flying population? If people know there's really something where I can be safe,
...where I can learn something in an emotionally positive environment for women.
I definitely believe that. I mean, we didn't invent women's camps or anything like that. I also know, I think Ecki Maute and Cordula have been offering those kinds of camps at Lake Achensee for, I think, ten years now. It would be interesting to talk to them about how they go about it. Or what kind of response they've received. I just think these women's offers are in tune with the spirit of the times. It's not just happening in aviation right now. It's also happening with Switzerland Tourism. They had such a huge range of purely women's offers for biking and mountaineering.
The whole range, right? Yes. I believe, and that's also our wish, that we can increase the women's quota, because those ten percent or twelve percent, or whatever they are, don't give me any reason why it's twelve, why it's so few. And I also believe that we can increase it. What was exciting for me regarding those introductory days I did last year—well, hikers come there, or rather, we wanted to get hikers to join.
And with this all-female introductory day, I mean, if a woman really wants to do paragliding, she'll look for an introductory day at the flight school and go there or look for a basic course. But these women at these introductory days didn't actually have the idea of wanting to learn paragliding in mind. They just saw this offer and felt spoken to, like trying something new again in an all-female group. And they were all very, very enthusiastic. And by the end of that day, every single one of them could imagine paragliding themselves. And because of that, I really think it would work.
As a flight instructor, if you have an all-female group now, do you do things with them somehow differently than you would with a mixed group?
I feel different, I think. I mean, I obviously blossom there too. But in a mixed group, I feel even more like I have to show or prove what I can do. In an all-female group, I have more of a feeling that I can just be who I am. And because of that, I'm probably different.
I find that interesting. But you hear that quite often. But what's the reason for that? What is it about this type of male pilot that sometimes puts you women off, or restricts you, or sets perceived boundaries, or whatever it is?
So maybe it's being judged,
that I'm being judged based on my performance and not on who I am or what I'm like. So I think judgment has a lot to do with it for me.
You're saying that it has something to do with you. Do you also experience that from your conversations with the other women—that you pick up on them having this constant fear of being judged or something like that?
I don't know. I think Jutta, Katrin, and I could definitely do a study on that now—what exactly it is, like how the women feel or what's going on there—but I can't say for sure.
But from your experience, would you say that men are, perhaps just in terms of their mindset, much more competitively oriented? That is, they are always measuring themselves against others and then somehow automatically pull the women into that. Because if there's only one woman among five men there, then this competition just dominates. Yes. And that's also a mindset of the men: who is the strongest, who flew the furthest, who has the most points, who is the fastest, who has the strongest steep spiral, or whatever all that is.
Yeah, or maybe not necessarily in a competitive way, but it can also be that a man wants to get into the air for himself, for his own best flight, or to achieve some kind of performance goal for himself. And that we women, on the other hand, value this togetherness, this sense of it meaning a lot to us or giving us a lot,
this sense of connection. I mean, I don't know many women who just head out alone on a flight day just for themselves to pull off their flight, the planned flight. You know, I mean, we value the togetherness more, I don't know, I don't know, we just value the togetherness more, I mean, I also with my,
my flight friend back then after training, for us there was nothing more beautiful than sitting at the launch site and just being and staying there and, yeah. So
the shared experience. The
Enjoying community, yes.
Especially regarding your aviation story, I find that interesting because you learned agro-flying and then said you invested so much time and all that. That's probably all—you were probably so good at some point that you probably didn't have a female partner accompanying you the whole time anymore, but I imagine you were, at least during this phase, more of a lone wolf in that regard. Tell me right away if that's not the case, but that's how I picture it.
I think so too, and I'm not saying—I mean, I never would have thought of participating in a women's paraglider festival.
Back then, you wouldn't have thought of it.
Well, actually, I didn't see it as a need or a necessity for women to do something together, or for that to be anything meaningful at all, not at all. And of course, I had my partner back then, Xandi, with whom I had one-on-one support and my step-by-step...
strategy, and of course, he accompanied me one-on-one through the thermals constantly, and I certainly owe this progression to him.
What triggered this shift in your attitude, where you say, okay, from this idea of being a lone wolf or being coached by Xandi and all that, but still flying for yourself, to this shift where you say what's important to me today is simply flying as women—this shared experience, going flying together, exchanging ideas and stuff. How did that gain so much value for you?
So, I—and I think about this often, Luciane—it has something to do with age, you know, somehow being over 40 and having different priorities than when you're young. But I've let that thought go again, because there were actually a lot of young women at the women's paragliding festival. And that's why I think it's more about where you are in life. Whether it's important to you at 30, or at 25, and for me, I liked the idea of the women's paragliding festival. I was actually only there at the second festival because I helped out, together with Chillout, with this bar, this apéro.
To organize. I would never have gone there as a participant. But I was close to it, and now with my personal development...
I booked a seminar on the topic of femininity. And that was the first time I was with other women. There were 20 of us women, and it lasted for four days. And it was beautiful. This community of women. And it was about topics like rediscovering your own femininity or finding access to it. And at that point in my life, that was my theme. And that's how I ended up in this group. And I... well, that was truly, truly a special experience because I had never felt so welcome. Accepted and welcome.
And maybe on the first day, I found it weird. On the second day, I would have most liked to run away. And on the third and fourth day, I was somehow able to engage and surrender to it. And that was just an incredible experience for me.
And this experience, or this bringing in of femininity, or this feminine approach, or this approach to encounter—is that also something you were able to feel in the same way during this women's flight?
I feel that very strongly, and Katrin, Jutta, and I feel it now when we work together or prepare something. And I believe that was the basic atmosphere at the festival. That I am good as a human being, that I am good as a woman, just as I am. Period. I think we also sense that in each other. And that just feels good.
What can male pilots learn from the spirit of women flying?
I don't even know if they have to learn anything from us, because, well, how should I put it, I think there are two different poles, without wanting to start a gender discussion here. But I don't think they have to learn anything from us. They just need to approach us with this respect and curiosity. Also regarding what we experience among ourselves. Like being open to it, not making fun of it or mocking it in some way, but it's simply an enrichment for all of us, for the whole community.
But one thing would be accepting, as in you say, the men accept, okay, there are these female flight groups, they do their thing and they're allowed to do it and it's all great. The other thing would be saying, maybe there are elements—or what are elements—
specific behaviors, regarding how you as women interact with each other, that for men in their interactions, in their male-dominated clubs or at male-dominated launch sites or something like that, where one could really say, it could perhaps be a win for everyone if a bit more femininity also entered there, in whatever form. What things would you think, what could men even accept of that? Not just accept in the sense that women are allowed to do it that way, but hey, I could maybe also adopt that, that might take some of the stress off me at the launch site because I constantly feel like I'm being watched or whatever, and take some of that off my plate.
Are you thinking of something specific?
No, I just... I'm trying to extract something from you, maybe an idea that's there or something like that. Maybe you and Jutta and Katrin or whoever have talked about things like that before.
I haven't thought about that yet, because for me, it's not...
precisely because it's not didactic for me. I mean, we're not doing anything better. You know what I mean? And precisely because these different perspectives I've mentioned can also be acted upon in different ways.
That means you don't see it as a kind of emancipation in the sense of, yeah, men now have to adapt to us women or something, or that something fundamentally has to change in the world, but rather it's actually just saying nothing fundamentally has to change, but we want to create spaces where the feminine can also take place.
Absolutely, exactly. And the men should enjoy and benefit from the fact that we have these spaces.
I'm still trying to see your side of things a bit. If there were a bit more femininity in the aviation scene—maybe if more women joined the aviation scene and the proportion of women increased over time, for example—what would a world of aviation with a stronger female character look like to you?
I think of acceptance. So an emotion, or whatever, I don't know, a view, an insight, whenever—no matter who—a colleague shares something, just accepting it and not lecturing them, like trying to impose your own way of functioning on them. So listening and accepting this person as an emotion, and just being open to that—that is curiosity for me.
to be curious about how others experience things, without then feeling like you know better and can now save the world by explaining to the pilot, or the co-pilot, or the colleague, how they should be doing it.
That means more of an exchange about the experience, so what they experienced, and less of an exchange about how they should have done it or something like that.
Yes, exactly, it's about expanding horizons in some way, and everyone does it differently and everyone does it well, because it's what they are capable of and want to do at that moment.
Would there still be competitions in such a more feminine paraglider world?
Yes, I think so, I mean I'd definitely be up for measuring myself against others again.
Even though you used to see it as a struggle?
Yeah, maybe, because I think I've also become more relaxed about it, and maybe I can even enjoy it.
That's also a group of like-minded people, so a group that's preparing for something, that's just, yeah, also a bit, a bit boundary-pushing—so maybe that contradicts itself now, but I think this
Ambition in a person—for me, that's not something typically feminine or typically masculine. I mean, sure, it's about performance, but yeah, or maybe it has more of a masculine aspect, but no, I think anyone who has that in them should be able to live it out somehow, be allowed to. And a competition is always such a concentrated dose of knowledge, of know-how, and so I do think that thanks to competitions, boundaries can be pushed, which is also something incredibly exciting. It doesn't mean there can't be any performance, or that one shouldn't... I don't find that...
Competition is also a good motivator.
Yes, in every case.
case. For
yourself, so
that also releases energy in a way, because you say, oh, I want that, I have to do that now, or I want to be able to do it even better because I saw that it can be done better, or that you can push boundaries you thought you couldn't push before, and suddenly someone flies an Infinity Tumbling out of a full stall, or whatever, and then you say, wow, before that would never have been possible, and now it is, and then I want to be able to do that next.
Yes, definitely, yes, inspiration and also, yeah, motivation, definitely, yes. That was definitely the case for me every time, because I wanted to be ready for the next competition... I'd stand on the gondola at seven o'clock and do my first flight at seven in the morning, just to be able to get enough flights in to prepare myself. That naturally helped me progress as well, yeah.
So you don't have any competitions driving you like that at the moment. What appeals to you about flying today?
So, what appeals to me, I just know,
Katrin asked me recently, if I were my own child, what would I want to do with myself?
And when you put it like that, the answer is crystal clear. I want to get out there, I want to be in the air, I want to go flying. That's why it's simply a matter of the heart. From a logical standpoint, I've been thinking for a long time that I should slowly find another hobby or a new passion. But aviation is so deeply anchored in my heart. So, being able to see that as a gift—this enthusiasm and this joy—to be able to live it out. And I couldn't give you any external stimuli... other than just internal drive.
Why is your mind telling you that you should actually look for a different hobby?
Yeah, because I somehow see, because sometimes I think,
Mentally, it feels like a standstill. Maybe it also has to do with comparing myself to others. When I see what new chapters other people are starting or new things they're doing... yeah, I feel a bit boring then. For me, it's still just about how good the flying is. Although, of course, I know it's also a huge gift from heaven.
At the Women's Airshow, you also flew an aerobatic display for those women who were all watching. Were you up there in the air with the current, at least unofficial, aerobatic world champion Gabi Fonck? What was that like for you?
For me, it was like playing, dancing. It wasn't... I mean, in contrast to competition, it wasn't a fight where I have to show my best; it was really, we're going out there to dance, to play. It had this playful side because I didn't have to. I had my glider in the car. I knew I could if I wanted to. But it wasn't planned. That was Gabi, her stage and her spotlight. And it was spontaneous that I went along. And it was just, yeah, it was just playful.
Was that the first Agro show you've basically flown again since you stopped doing Agro flying about ten years ago?
So, that was like... I've been going agro-flying, I'd say, every two weeks this summer. I couldn't really build anything up, but I was able to see a bit... see what's still possible and what's still fun, what feels good. And yeah, that was sort of,
to consciously experience that moment, yeah.
Is that then something like, in a certain way, a feeling of like coming home or something, and you say, yeah, actually that's it, I want even more?
Yes, I feel that's exactly it. I'm completely in my element there. And in the flow, actually. I mean, as a housewife and mother, flow can be found...
Not that easy.
Not on the agenda. And yes, flow—being in my element—that is something precious and something special, yes.
You're a mother of two children by now. And that was also one of the reasons why you stopped doing agricultural aviation back then. How has motherhood now, how has it changed your view on aviation and perhaps also this femininity in aviation?
Yes, I can... well, it's difficult, so it's hard for me to answer that right now, other than the fact that topics shift completely and other things become important. And also, when you're a mother, you have to deal with yourself too, because you can't just run away from it anymore. So, if being a mother were a job, I would have quit a long time ago. And somehow, it just doesn't work that way. And the only thing that helps is to deal with it and also to keep evolving. And that probably involves all the...
Dealing with the issues you have there, for me, the topic of femininity has already played a role.
And how does that translate—this being a mother, and maybe these thoughts of responsibility and whatever else comes with it—how does that translate to your flying, or has it? Do you go up into the air differently today because you're a mother?
No, that's the funny thing—when I'm in the air, I'm nowhere less of a mother than in the air. And that's the beauty of going up into the air.
That is so deeply anchored in me, that feeling of being free and alive and, well, independent—I think being self-determined is an important, a very important area. Flying gives me that. So this determination, being brave, being self-determined. Three values that are very, very important to me, which I can experience in flying, just like in life.
That means in flying, you live your freedom. Yes. Where you can say, no one is telling me what to do here, I'm pulling here, I'm deciding which string I want to pull right now. And that isn't determined by anyone else in any way. And I'm only responsible for myself here, because of what I'm doing here, no one can just grab the controls. This is simply my thing, what I'm doing.
Exactly. And that also goes along with it, it's like a rejuvenation treatment, right? I'm there, I'm young and playful, yeah. Yeah. I
I think your oldest son or daughter doesn't even know what that's like, they're already ten years old. Mhm. How long was the sort of mother - or baby break, where you didn't fly at all?
So, the hike and fly, that's always been there. And that, well,
Hike and fly was the last thing I did. And the first thing I did again, when I had two hours to myself with the baby, I'd hike up somewhere and fly down. So I'll say, that's also the beauty of flying, when you... well, you
did you hike up with the baby? No. And flew down with the baby?
No, not that. Okay. But whenever I had a break from being a mother, or if we as a couple had a weekend for ourselves, hike and fly was actually always a topic, because even the flying—that was maybe like going on a bike tour—the flying was always there, because the basis, or the routine, was so established that it didn't take any effort to get back into the air.
And it wasn't like you said, "Ah, there's such a risk involved, as a mother I can't take that on right now." Because I know some women who, as soon as they've become mothers—at least for a few years, especially at the beginning when the kids are still very small—become very, very reserved to the point of giving it up completely because they say, "No, that's just not in proportion anymore." They're in a, whatever you want to call it, maternal duty, but they also accept it for themselves in a way where they say, "No, there are different priorities now that I want to take into account."
So I think it probably has something to do with insecurity due to a lack of routine. And feeling insecure in the air isn't exactly a nice thing either. It's just exhausting and draining. I completely understand that. That's why I'm so grateful that I have such a lot of routine, so that I can arrive on the mountain tired or exhausted and still be able to fly down easily. That's not something to take for granted. But as for the risk, yeah, I have that thought—that it could be risky or I might not make it home—much, much more often in the car than I do in the air now.
You also work as a tandem pilot. Have you flown with your children yet?
Yes, well, at three years old, they both wanted to, they wanted to fly along.
That went well for so long until I said, "Now we're hiking to the launch site." Since then, they don't want to come along anymore. They love being in the air, but the stuff around it, until you get to the launch site or something, they find—so if I suggest to them, "Let's go flying this afternoon," then they say a firm no.
Because they have to hike up and they're like, no, I don't feel like doing that.
Yes, so we've done some nice hikes together, but even here in Interlaken, walking to the launch site—that's maybe 15 minutes from the bus station. And that ratio of effort to reward just isn't very worthwhile for the two of them.
And do they, as kids, have you ever noticed them, do they find it cool in any way to have a mother who would have become an Agro Master or almost a Swiss Master overall? Something like that, have they even realized it at all—I mean, they weren't in the world back then, but did they find out later, like saying, wow, my mom was really, really great at the front and a really cool sock?
No, that—well, I notice, for example, with the godfather Kriegel, the Kriegel Mauer, who is Salome's godfather, I notice the pride there. So Salome has the pride, that's my godfather and he flies paraglider quite well. But towards me, I don't have that now,
that doesn't happen, like, some kind of recognition or pride, no.
Okay, Götti is, I believe, also the High German term for godfather, just so people who don't understand this part of Swiss German can place it. You're married to Thomas Törriard, and Thomas is the, how shall I put it, congenial supporter, mental trainer, and coach of, of Kriegel, so Kriegel Mauer. What is it like for you to live with a, with a psychologist? As a wife, partner, whatever, mother, are you constantly being questioned?
Well, well...
...confronted with intelligent questions—which doesn't mean criticized, but Thomas is someone who works a lot with questions, at least in his coaching. So, to what extent do you also get coached, voluntarily or involuntarily, as his partner?
So that's definitely an aspect where we can, as I said earlier, just be able to talk and have a listener who doesn't want to optimize or act like they know better. Of course, Thomas is used to pushing people forward or optimizing himself and motivating people to achieve goals, which at the moment is a nightmare for me with the family, because I'm actually desperately trying to just be a family and enjoy it, and not have any optimization demands or any... yeah, that's definitely a point.
who also gives us tasks.
I can imagine that. So I've met Thomas at the place where I always see him, and I talked to him, and somehow by the third sentence he already asked me another question, and I felt forced to think about how and what again, which I actually didn't want to do at all.
That can probably happen more often. How does Thomas see things like that, projects like this women's flight festival? How do you talk to him about it, or does he just say, "You do it, I'm not really interested," or "I think it's great if you have something you really enjoy doing" or something like that? Now,
When you say that, I notice that I talk about it very, very little, even beforehand, and certainly not enough for him. So, he would like to participate in my projects, but I—also because probably Jutta and Kathrin and I have each other to exchange with—it's also a bit of mine, that I don't want to share or I don't want to calculate, I don't want to justify myself, or certainly also because of course it would always still go differently or better and I don't want to expose myself to that. That could be true, yes. And I also feel so secure in that environment that I don't ask questions out of insecurity or seek Thomas's advice.
So when I'm doing something like Hikenfly, I'm always very grateful for Thomas's input, his advice and his ideas. But with women's flying, I don't need that, because, well, it's just my thing—I feel comfortable in that field.
Is that maybe also something when it comes to women's flying, where maybe not just you, but the other women also say that so many different energies come together here that we might not have, and that's completely enough for us to feel safe here in this setting?
This acceptance, yes, I believe that—this acceptance, this warmth—I think it's extremely valuable for creating a beautiful setting where people feel comfortable.
Are you or will you be continuing this women's flight next year as a festival, or in any way? Are you planning to expand something like this, or are you saying you'll do one in Lenk and there will be one in Austria and one in the Black Forest, or whatever?
So we're thinking and hoping, or wishing, that there will be imitators who might set up similar events in their own circles. It doesn't have to be us. Of course, I dream of a Coupé-Car, of a festival like Coupé-Car, just with women.
So that it becomes even more established—celebrating and honoring us, celebrating the sport, and celebrating nature, but also celebrating us. I think that's another aspect that's very important to me, somehow celebrating or maybe even in the family. We could celebrate much more of what we have, what we are, and what we achieve, and of course, among women as well.
Now a question, I hadn't thought about this before, but it just occurred to me. You say celebrating us as women and stuff. A lot of this paragliding scene is also technically oriented. Equipment, gliders, harnesses and all that. And they are almost all developed by men. With a male mindset behind them or whatever. Do you think there would be something like paragliders for women or harnesses for women or other things that would look different? And what kind of different character would they have?
I can't really say anything about that. I've never thought about it. I'm not interested in it either. I'm not a light pilot. I see that light pilots have this as a constant topic. Especially gliders. The technical side is very foreign to me. I don't know, do you have an opinion on it?
No, that was just a spontaneous question that just popped into my head without me really thinking about the background first. I know there were some projects by U-Turn. For example, there was somehow a glider in the Ladies Edition and it was pink.
It was probably also dreamed up by a man who says, okay, for the ladies' edition, let's just make it pink. And then it's like that. And there are only a few approaches. For example, Neo has backpacks where they said, let's make a backpack tailored to more feminine proportions. And that's quite sensible, saying that women often don't have quite as long a back, it's a bit shorter, but the pelvis is wider or something in the proportions. And then you adjust it accordingly. And I know that at Neo, very many women work there, both in development and in production. So from that perspective, the idea came that they said, why don't we also make backpacks specifically for that? But that's only a very small area. Then I just wondered if you might say, maybe there are other things where you always notice, even in conversations among women, saying, hey, we have all this great stuff, but actually I'd prefer a harness that looks completely different.
They could have had little flowers on them or been cut completely differently, or whatever. It could have been done.
Yes, well, for sure, I'm not leading these discussions. But I think, even at the women's paraglider festival, there was a discussion about female pilots, where Gudrun Oersel and Jutta Reiser got involved. But I know, ADVANCE was my equipment sponsor. I also worked at ADVANCE. And for me, when a new glider was being sewn, the color was always extremely important to me. And also with my harness, I felt very comfortable if the harness simply had an aesthetic design that matched my ideas. And the glider too, I have the violet-yellow one, I loved it.
But I don't want to speak for the majority of women right now.
There are probably also very many different attitudes regarding what is perceived as beautiful and what isn't. Exactly. Judith, let's slowly head towards the end. But I have one more question. Thomas, your husband, is someone who always looks for, let's say, the potential in people, or tries to coax that potential out of people by asking questions like, "What else do you want to achieve?" and things like that. Where do you see your own potential still? I mean, what do you want to achieve? What do you perhaps want to achieve in the coming time? Where do you see yourself there? Where would you like to get to?
So, I want to become a competent flight instructor, and I want to feel competent too. For me, it's...
between what I can do and what I believe I can do. Sometimes it's a bit of a distorted perception. So, I have an ego right now that's more trying to keep me small. My ego doesn't feel like I have anything to say or that anyone would listen to this podcast of mine. And that's how I see my...
that's a feeling for me. It's not a technical goal or anything, but simply being okay with who I am, how I feel, and how I feel in front of the group of flight students, in the world in general, and in my own apartment, but also in front of the women at the next camp—and being able to accept them as well.
For me, it's more like, yeah, a goal in the—or I'll just say, a goal of lived, felt self-love.
That's nice. Your website is called ChickenStyle. Do you connect that—I mean, that comes from the agro era. Maybe you can briefly tell us how that term even came about. But then the question is, do you still connect with it, do you still see yourself in that spirit today?
So, when it comes to my motto, "trust the process," I find that it's not somehow...
...instead of desperately wanting to achieve or search for something, but simply trusting the process. This ChickenStyle is such a nice example of that for me. It's something that emerged, that became, that evolved, that just flowed along without me doing much to it. So the logo or ChickenStyle in general emerged without me searching for, for anything with this comment—this pilot, he was a cross-country pilot who was out there in his aesthetic cross-country harness—and my way of moving in my battery harness with weight shifts and throwing my legs over each other looked extremely ridiculous to him, and he labeled it, evaluated it as ChickenStyle.
rather than trying to achieve or seek something desperately, but simply trusting the process—that's what ChickenStyle is such a beautiful example of for me. It's something that emerged, that became, that evolved, that just flowed along without me doing much to it. So the logo or ChickenStyle itself came into being without me searching for anything with this comment—this pilot, who was a cross-country pilot, who was out there in his aesthetic cross-country harness, and my way of using my battery harness with weight shifting and throwing my legs over each other looked extremely ridiculous to him, and he labeled it and evaluated it as ChickenStyle,
this flying chicken—I haven't really thought it over yet, but I think it stands for so many things I've never even named, but it's just something that has stayed with me over the years. And funnily enough, the logo has changed three times. First, it was a playful comic chicken that fit the era perfectly, and then, when I became a mother, I absolutely wanted a new logo for my tandem vouchers, so it became a sitting chicken. And you know, I mean, I chose the logo from the graphic designer, and only now, ten years later, I'm thinking, that was a sitting chicken, it wasn't a flying chicken, and now it's a flying chicken again, just like that.
has accompanied me, and I dream of having a collection one day, a clothing collection, ChickenStyle, and somehow more will come out of it and pass, and yeah, I feel like it still fits me.
A clothing collection for paragliding or just fashion in general that you can wear in everyday life?
I think, well, for paragliding, but not technical stuff—I think it will be a glider skirt or I don't know, it will also have to do with femininity and such, so of course all women can wear it.
Do you just need the right harness for the paragliding skirt, or would you also have to develop how to actually make it work properly? Judith, are you planning on flying an Infinity -Tumbling again?
Yes, I'd love to.
Are you trying it already?
No, it's a long way and I'm still struggling a bit with the effort I have to put in here, with the mountain railway up and all the fuss involved and how much time it takes, also how much time on the mountain railway, staying in the gondola, so, this ratio of time spent to reward isn't very motivating at the moment, but I think I've been dreaming this autumn of going to Gerlitz for a week and just having some time there alone again for a stretch, which didn't work out because of a strong low-pressure system,
but I'll definitely make sure to take some time again, to stay with it for a while, and then I think that with the small steps of success, the motivation to put in the effort will come back.
Alright, Judith, then I wish you a lot of fun with that, or that you'll have a lot of fun with it—no slump, but a nice high, which will then bring you great times and great weeks there. Thank you for telling us about women's aviation and everything else. I think that we men can certainly take some notes from that sometimes, when it comes to maybe being less judgmental at launch sites or being more supportive in some way overall for the community or the one that's currently forming, and being there accordingly. Thank you for this inspiration and all the best.
Thanks so much, Lucian, thank you.
That was episode number 71 of Podz-Glidz, featuring Judith Theuria in conversation with Lucian Haas. In the show notes for this episode on Lu-Glidz, you will find a series of further links regarding Judith's agro-flying and, of course, women's flying. The Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz is online at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. Lu-Glidz is spelled Lu-Glidz. If you feel well-informed or well-entertained as a listener of Podz-Glidz and a reader of Lu-Glidz, then please give something back by supporting my work as a patron. Your one-time or recurring contribution is entirely up to you. In other words, you can give as much as you want.
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