Yeah, so I managed to get past the switching pass with over 5,000, and then I saw that if I go back to Pyr now, it's more or less a detour, so I do 241—I still remember that exactly—and then I thought, okay, I think 260 is the record. Then we added a bit more, and I pushed myself a little further, and by chance, I ended up breaking the record.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Philipp Zellner. And I'm Lucian Haas.
Birbilling is something like the Bassano of India. A flight area where, especially during the October and November period, you can go on cross-country flights almost every day. You either ride down the front chain of the southern Himalayas, which is considered suitable for beginners, or you dare to jump into the backcountry. That's where it gets wild. Mighty mountains, deep gorges, powerful valley winds, nasty lee-side turbulence, thermals hunting upwards, and imposing views. Philipp Zellner, a tandem and agro pilot from Austria, came to Birbilling for the first time eight years ago. Since then, he spends several months there every year. Among the locals, the 32-year-old now has the status of a living flying legend.
Whenever he's mentioned, the word "legend" keeps coming up. In terms of cross-country flying, Philipp is something like the uncrowned king of Bier. In May 2022, he pushed the launch site record to 270 kilometers. Just one day later, he flew an FAI record triangle over 222 kilometers, and the following day, he also flew the longest distance from Bier with a tandem. However, even more remarkable is a solo bivouac flight of over 1,300 kilometers, in which he first crossed Nepal in several stages before finally flying all the way to Bier. Philipp Zellner tells the story of all that and more in this 86th episode of Podz-Glidz.
Among other things, we'll talk about Kung Fu thermals, the challenges of cross-country flying in the Himalayas, the art of landing at the top of nowhere, his approach to risk, useful agro-skills, and what it feels like to return to the everyday tandem business in Tyrol after moments of wild freedom.
If you enjoy Podz-Glidz, why not support my work as a patron? You can find out how to do that easily and without any obligation on the website of my blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the Support page.
Philipp, during one of your cross-country flights you did in Nepal this spring—I think it was March 5th, it was somewhere east of Kathmandu—you left a short comment afterwards on XContest. It says Paragliding -Kung-Fu. What's behind that? Paragliding -Kung-Fu. Yes,
that's just when you're flying somewhere with pretty turbulent air.
And yeah, you often have to brake and release, brake and release, to keep the glider nice and stable and everything. And yeah, it really tosses you around quite a bit, and I'd call that more like paragliding Kung Fu when it goes like, puh, puh, puh, puh. Yeah, it's quite
funny. Have you actually done real Kung Fu yourself, or is it just because of the movement that you say you fly like Kung Fu Panda?
Yeah, I've done that before, but yeah, it's more like Kung Fu Panda.
Yeah, when it's that turbulent, it happens every now and then. I think everyone who flies a lot knows that feeling. And for you, a flight like that is also like a struggle? Yeah, more or less, when it really goes up and then really down, up, down, back and forth. And yeah, it's more like, if we can just keep going, let's put it that way.
Enduring it. Can you still enjoy something like that, or does the enjoyment only come when you're lying in your tent somewhere in the evening?
No, the enjoyment is actually always there. Even, of course, when it's tough or something like that. But yeah, I do enjoy it. I'd say I don't really like it when everything is too easy. You should have a few challenges, I'd say.
How can you make challenging conditions fun for yourself?
Yeah, by having some cozy music playing.
That means you
do you listen to music on the flight?
Yeah, exactly. I have speakers with me and I always carry them around. And yeah, when I'm flying, it's relaxing every now and then, I have to say.
Just from the idea of it. You're out there somewhere in the middle of the Himalayan backcountry, traveling around Nepal. You have music on, but what kind of music is it?
Yeah, more relaxing music.
But is that
then something Asian? Yeah, exactly.
A bit Asian too. It's like a remix. It's quite subtle, depending on the situation. Every now and then, when I need a bit of motivation, I dive into the music a bit faster. So it's like, when you come across it briefly.
That flight, that Kung Fu Panda flight, let's just say, is part of a—I'd say not just in my eyes, but an extraordinary bivouac flight adventure you did there. If I followed correctly, you flew a total of around 1,300 kilometers across Nepal and then afterwards all the way to India and to Bidhan. Was that planned as an adventure in this form?
No, not really. I just happened to not travel home because of the Corona situation when I was in India, but instead went further to Nepal because it was just easier there due to the visa situation. And then I thought—a colleague also wrote to me saying he was coming to Nepal too and they wanted to fly down to Kathmandu. And I said, yeah, I'd like to do that too. We actually all started at the same time. There were only two other East-Reuer, Pierre and Harry. And yeah, they were unfortunately a bit slower. And then I said, okay, I'll just keep flying because I didn't really know if they were coming yet, since I don't have a radio or anything. We couldn't have any contact.
And then we agreed on a spot, about 60 kilometers from Pokhara. But I was well on schedule, and I said, I'm going to keep flying because I don't know if they're coming. And behind me, it already looked like the weight was coming right off. And yeah, then I just flew down towards the east and thought, for the first few days, I'll just do it as a trial to see if I like it again. Because I actually do that kind of bivouac flying more often. But you always need a little bit of time to get back into it. And then I liked it so much right away that I said, okay, I'll just keep flying.
But that was basically the first flight. You guys actually wanted to fly together, and on the first flight, you realized, oh, they're too slow. I'm moving much faster. Then I just take off.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm also quite used to that, because I'm always or often bivouacking alone in India now. So, when I'm on the mountain alone, I don't really have a problem with it. I feel completely comfortable there.
So you were also a group of three, but everyone basically had the gear they needed to be able to survive, stay overnight, and do everything else on their own.
Yeah, the other two colleagues had a tent together. That's why I always have my own gear, because I know what it's like when you go biwak flying with two or three people. And usually, yeah, you don't land in the same spot. And I just like having all my stuff with me and, how should I put it, being independent. That's the cool thing about it.
If you look at your flights there, you've uploaded them all to XContest. Yeah, exactly. When you look at them, you can see you fly, then land again. I mean, that's probably what you usually aim for with bivouacking. You land somewhere up on the mountain, but the next day you basically take off from the exact same spot again. Yeah, that's... how do you do that? I mean, that's probably everyone's dream. But you can see you're doing that almost every day in a row. How do you manage that?
Yeah, I have this method where I say, from four o'clock onwards, I look for a sleeping spot where I can then start out early again on the east side. So that I can start again by 11 o'clock at the latest. And because of that, depending on how high you are, you can sometimes fly until six or so from four or five. But for that, you still have time to find a spot. And I always say, I'd rather land somewhere on the east side, or rather somewhere I can start off from again on the east side the next day. And it doesn't have to be perfect for that, right? Like, I'd rather fly ten kilometers less but be up on the mountain than somewhere down in the valley, where you then have to hike up somewhere with 30 kilos of gear. That's just very tedious and not good for your back.
So, I go for the easy way out. That means you have 30
kilograms of luggage with you.
So on average,
Yeah. But did you not run at all during that? Or did you actually have to climb 1,000 meters or something?
No, I walked up 100 meters once because the launch site up there was just nicer.
100 meters?
Yeah, 100 meters of elevation.
Don't exaggerate. You would have...
you could have still started heading down. Yeah, I could have too, but I figured it's just a better starting position.
That means a 1,300-kilometer cross-country flight with a 100-meter climb once, more or less.
That alone is probably already a record, isn't it?
Yeah, that could be. I always say, bivouac bags are for lazy people.
If you just said 30 kilos, what kind of gear do you have with you? Especially when you're out in such remote areas in the Himalayas, where you probably can't just resupply somewhere all the time.
Yes, of course I have at least a week's worth of food with me. Depending on what I've planned. Sometimes I've had two weeks' worth of food with me. Like, as
Dried food, everything's fine? Yes, different. Or
What do you have with you? Well, I'm pretty much, yeah, I eat pretty much everything. And every now and then I even bring peanut butter and apples. And I don't let myself go without anything. Or ready-made rice dishes, maybe. And you can buy all of that too. Or couscous. Or lots of nuts, I always have plenty of nuts with me. So, everything across the board. I like to eat. And I just think it's good to have a bit of variety. Not always the same thing. Like soups with couscous. Different soups every day or something. What else I have is this Tibetan thing called Zampa. That's, you know, what the sheep herders have in their beds. It's like a powder. I usually make it in my tea.
And then it's a good breakfast. It gives you a good boost and everything. And yeah, Zampa. I really like that. So, what is it?
Is that like a kind of muesli in the end? Or more like a porridge?
Exactly, it's more like a porridge where the grain is just ground up. And you dissolve it in warm water. You can do it in cold water too, but of course, it's nicer if you have something warm to eat. Especially in the morning. And then I add some nuts to it. And yeah. Yeah, I also had muesli with me. Quite a lot. I always have quite a lot with me.
So you start off with 30 kilos at the beginning because you have so much food with you. How much of that actually makes up the food itself?
Yeah, the food is definitely several kilos. I can't say exactly because I don't weigh everything. For me, it's, yeah, I just do it as it seems to me. And as much space as I have. As long as I have space, I keep stuffing it in.
And then you keep going. You probably have a tent with you? Or is it just a tarp that you have?
Yeah,
two-person tent. Even if it rains or something. So that I can endure my longer days. And that I obviously can't put my glider, my baby, inside anymore.
Yes. What else do I have? I always have 6 liters of water with me. 6 liters? Yes, 6 liters. And I also have a water filter. A stove. Of course, so I can always make myself something nice. Especially on cold evenings. Then I make some tea and put it into a plastic bottle. And then it's like a hot water bottle. That's also great. And the
do you
then also into your sleeping bag? Yeah, exactly. It's like a hot water bottle. If I know I'm sleeping way up there now, I usually prepare that in the evening. Those are the preparations. Better too warm than too cold.
Do you also cover yourself with your glider? Like the classic way, as extra insulation over you? I need
I don't. In reality, I don't need it because I just have great gear. My sleeping pad, for example, goes down to minus 17 degrees. The sleeping bag goes down to minus 10. So I have to say, everywhere I've slept below 3000, I've actually started sweating more than being too cold.
And what was it like on the trip, because you said under 3000, what was the highest altitude you ever stayed overnight?
I'd say around 4,000. Maybe roughly 4,000, I'd say now.
Usually it's around 3,500, 4,000, something like that. I've always made sure I don't drop below 3,000.
But staying that high up all the time, that's pretty high. So, for the body's recovery, that's basically not in the optimal range, I'd say. Is flying not so exhausting for you that you'd say it doesn't actually affect you at all?
No, flying is quite comfortable, or rather, depending on where you're flying.
Unless you have to do kung fu, then it's not like that.
Then it's not so cozy, but the days are part of it too, of course. Otherwise, it would be too easy.
How do you handle the planning then? Do you have any maps with you, or is it all just on your phone, or are you really just flying by feel and thinking, "Okay, the ridge has to go east somehow," and just orienting yourself by everything that looks like it's heading east?
Yeah, I do it more and more freestyle. I mean, in principle, you can only fly in one direction, right? If you know, okay, I'm flying east or west, depending on where you're heading. But then you know the direction. But what I do additionally is, I fly with a phone. And on the phone, we actually always set a point every 60 kilometers, where I'd actually be, where I'd have the best connection to the next ridge or something. And that's basically how I did it. And when I hit those 60 kilometers, I'd look in the air again. And then I'd think about where it wouldn't be great and where it wouldn't be good. And then I'd pick a spot again, set another point, and head roughly in that direction. Whenever I was further south or north, I always made sure to get roughly there. It's possible that afterwards I was 20 kilometers further south or north, depending on how the flying went.
So you just have like an orientation arrow left on your phone that you use as an instrument, right?
Exactly, I just have a point on the X-Track that I look at. Like, "Yeah, look, it would go over there," and then I follow that a bit. But like I said, I'm doing everything more freestyle now. If it looks better over there to me, then I'll fly there, depending on my gut feeling.
So, you basically did the whole thing on your own after your first flight, where you'd already left the others behind. Are you good being alone?
Yeah, I can be alone pretty well. I mean, solo bivouac flying is my thing, because I'm in India a lot, I do that a lot too. The cool thing is, when you're alone, you can just fly however you want. And if I have someone else with me, for example, I usually do things like, with this much wind, I can fly into that, how is the other person doing, do they have a bigger or, I mean, do they have a smaller glider, then they're a bit slower relative to the wind and so on. I just worry too much about that, where I say, when I'm alone, I'm only responsible for myself and I just fly however I want and yeah, that usually works great. But
What about the risk, especially when you're alone? I mean, you could break your legs during a hard landing somewhere, and then you're lying there at 3,500 meters in the Nepalese backcountry, probably with no cell service out there or anything. What do you do then?
Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, it's just like, of course I'm aware of the risk, but I mean, what part of life isn't a risk, right? You always have to, I always say, you always have to go with your gut feeling, and if you come across somewhere where it's difficult to land,
you know, sometimes I try for half an hour and I fly in, fly out, fly in, fly out, and it just means, yeah, be relaxed and just don't stress about the landing and always make sure you land safely without having problems again or, in other words, destroying your glider or your gear, that's just important because otherwise, yeah, you're just stuck.
That means patience is one of the most important things. Yes,
Definitely. So having patience is one of the most important things.
Would you have some kind of plan B for emergencies? Like, are there people you're always connected to at home, in any way, who track you and there's some form of live tracking, and then I could say, I'm sending an emergency signal, in whatever form, and they would set something in motion? Or are you really on your own? No, I
I'm actually mostly on my own. For example, I had a colleague in India, Ram, whom I actually contacted every day because, luckily, I had internet reception every day—at least one or two bars—and I'd always send him a message saying, "Look, I landed safely again," but otherwise, I didn't really have anything with me, and I actually like it that way, being a bit free and all.
So you don't have a Spot, or some kind of InReach or something? No, I
I know, I know it would be good, but yeah, no. My head is just, I don't know, during one action my colleague even lent me a spot and then I forgot it at home.
I always say, if you don't have something, then you just don't need it.
I think Spot is difficult in India anyway, because at least in some areas—India, Nepal, I don't know, in some places the reception for it isn't even that good. Illegal,
yeah. You need
then, I think, really a spot. Yes, and that would now be
actually illegal, but I just saw from the colleagues in the WhatsApp group that they wrote something saying that it's legal now too.
So yeah, it was actually illegal before, but it's definitely something I'd recommend to anyone flying back there to have a spot like that with them. I know, I'm being a bit of a bad influence now, but I just, yeah.
If people hear that now, they'll probably think, wow, what an adventurer. How would you put it from your perspective? What was, or is, the biggest adventure for you in an adventure like that?
The biggest adventure, well, it's simply that you see so much and can fly so far. And yeah, as I said, I really like being alone, alone in the mountains and stuff. But you also meet several other people. I know a few times where I landed somewhere and there were some loggers, and then they invited me to eat and sit together by the fire and such. So that's probably the thing—if you're in a group of two or three, you more or less always have your own things. And yeah, I like everything, as long as I'm flying.
Let's jump back in time for a bit. You were there all winter in India, then Nepal, then back to India. But as far as I know, you've been doing this for many years, I think for about eight years or so. Yeah, for eight
I've been going regularly for years. Every winter
regularly to India. And I think I already saw a comment on one of your pictures on Instagram that said you're almost more Indian than you are Tyrolean or something. Do you feel
do you really feel at home there? Yes, I definitely feel at home there. I mean, everyone is so nice. And like I said, in Beerbilling, everyone knows me by now because of all the stuff I've done there. And I've done some beautiful flights in the past, too. I never went into it thinking I was going to break some record or anything. It just happened. I still remember the first time I flew 164 FRI, a colleague, Depo, came up to me and said, Philipp, you've broken a record. And I was like, oh, okay, cool.
Yeah. But you're basically in the beer scene now, are you sort of like a local hero or something?
Yes, yes, definitely more. You can really feel that.
But what was it like when you first came there eight years ago? How did you experience India back then? Was it a shock at first, or was it more like, wow, there's a freedom here, I want to come here more often?
Yes, of course it's a bit of a shock at first, because you're not used to everything being so dirty and littered.
Yeah, but that's really only in the cities. And once you get out there, up into the valleys, into the high mountains and stuff, it's just quickly forgotten, let's say, because the mountains are just so beautiful.
What appeals to you so much about flying in the Himalayas?
Well, first of all, because it's actually quite reliable. Like October and November are some of the best times; you can fly almost every day for nearly two months. And if one day it's completely clear or you can't fly, you're actually happy and say, oh, now I finally have my day off.
Otherwise, you might miss out on something.
Yeah, and that's the cool thing, right? Because it actually works quite reliably. It's usually in the summer or spring for us, and it can rain a lot then, or I'm out paragliding a lot, but in the winter I really have time for stuff like this.
When is the most reliable time for beer? I mean, when is it recommended to go there if you want to fly?
October, November. It's not that strong then, and yeah, it's also good for flying. So you can fly about 200 kilometers then, October, November. Of course, if you want to fly the records, then you have to go in the spring. Spring would be March, April, or April, May? April, May, yeah. But this is only the second time I've been there in April, May.
Is it very different from a flying perspective? Like, can you really say these are two different beers that you're basically going out to fly in?
Yes, definitely. First of all, you have much stronger thermals in the spring. You have to be relatively careful because everything develops quickly. So you really have to be well-versed in the subject, because if it overdevelops and everything starts to collapse, you can sometimes have brutally strong winds, and yeah, I don't want to be in the air for that.
Do you need any special skills to fly in the Himalayas?
Yes, I mean, it always depends on where you're flying. It's like beer, it's good for beginners as well as advanced pilots, because you have the Frontridge up ahead and you basically only have the south wind, so you can fly the whole ridge. So I'd say it's suitable for everyone. That means the
Frontridge, is that something like Bassano?
More or less, yeah. And you can just take off like that, and the further you go, of course, you have to have the corresponding gear. Like, if I'm flying way out there, I know a few people who fly out there, but they don't have a sleeping bag, no water, no food with them. If you land somewhere, then it's good if you have your supplies and are independent, right? And that's always important to me, every time I fly way out there, I always have it with me that I say, okay, I can at least get out for a week.
So, when you're planning the big flights, do you really always start out with 30 kilos? Exactly,
I always have about 30 kilos with me.
That's my backup, I always say, right? Because out there, basically no one can help you unless you have the body, and then they can pick you up by helicopter. Otherwise, it always looks a bit more difficult.
Has it ever happened to you that you were really stuck somewhere where you thought, oh shit, there's no way I'm getting out of here quickly, and you're landed somewhere down in the valley and know you really have to climb at least 1,000 meters with 30 kilos just so you might be able to move on the next day?
Fortunately, I haven't had anything that bad happen yet. Of course, I've had times where I'd land somewhere at 2,000 meters and then have to climb back up to 3,000.
But ideally, I always try to land around a mountain. And then maybe I'll go up a few more meters, just saying, okay, it'll be better the next day. Or I'll sleep deep and then hike up over the next few days. I do that sometimes, but not as much as planned. Because as I said, lugging around 30 kilos isn't exactly great.
On your flights in Nepal as part of those 1,300 kilometers, I think there was one where you landed deep in the valley. Was that intentional, or did it just happen like that?
Yeah, that's usually how it happens. I mean, when I'm planning something, I always try to land high up. But every now and then, you might end up landing somewhere on the outside.
And how did you get out of there? Yeah,
I wasn't really motivated to hike there because it was a really long walk. I took a quick look at the map, or rather, there actually wasn't any cell service there. And then I just knew, I don't know exactly where I'm going to end up. And then we have these locals, you know, they're all nice when you land there. Of course, no one understood me. And then they took me to the school where the teacher was. And he then said, look, two of them will take you over. One took my paraglider and I sat on the back of the moped. Then they took me to a bus stop, more or less, on two mopeds.
And then I rode the bus for another half hour. And then I was back at the launch site there in Taran. That's the town where you go to fly.
That means the buses go somewhere up over the mountains, over the pass. And then you say, let me get off here, because I think I can fly further from here.
Yeah, exactly. I looked around the internet a bit and on Google Maps. And then I searched for the launch site and then I just bivouacked up there.
Do you also use Google Earth, so not just Google Maps, but also Google Earth, to say, I'm really looking at it in 3D? What does the terrain look like there? Where can I maybe find a launch site? Or is that already overthinking it? Yeah, not really.
That's overthinking it again. For me, I like the simple stuff, and anything that gets too technical with computers is a bit difficult for me. But yeah, like I said, I actually do everything on Google Maps. Either that, or I have maps downloaded on XC Trackers and then we look at it that way.
If you fly across Nepal like that, is that actually allowed? Or is it a gray area, or would you actually have to get a permit? Because with a lot of things, if you want to go into the mountains and stuff—at least with mountaineering, I always read that you need some kind of official permission to go up there and other things. What's it like with paragliding? Yes,
Technically, you need a permit, but the problem is you can't get one. So, if you want to do something like that, and everyone who says anything has a permit for it, that's very unlikely. Especially if you want to fly across all of Nepal. Because they don't know what's all possible in our sport, let's put it that way. Of course, they have some kind of stupid rules now. They say something like, okay, you're allowed to land in Pokhara, you're allowed to take off up there, you're allowed to fly within a 10-kilometer radius, and the rest is basically all illegal.
And of course, if you talk to the locals, they'll usually tell you that if you land somewhere outside, you have to pack up quickly and get out of there. In most cases, they don't do anything, but like I said, it's possible that the police could show up and take you away.
And has that ever happened to you, anywhere?
Yeah, that happened to me on the west side. They went up into the mountain specifically and, yeah, I think they also thought I flew over from India. It was right on the border. And yeah, it's one of those things where I'd say, in Nepal, everything is actually beautiful; it's a super cool area, super beautiful mountains for flying. But the politics are always a bit, yeah, I'd say, something to be wary of. There are probably a few pilots who have oversight. And yeah, it's a shame in our sport that they don't stick together, but instead always work a bit against each other. And like the locals, there are really a lot of good pilots, especially young people over there, and they have a ton of potential. But if they do anything, they're immediately stopped by the police.
And then there's bamboo massage and stuff like that. Yeah, I don't think that's cool at all, especially when you're supposed to be a role model for people. So
"Bambumassage" means "beating with a stick," right?
Yeah, well, I've heard of a few who were locked up for two days and then given a "bamboo massage" with a baton and treated so that they won't do it anymore. Because in principle, many—or I've met a few pilots who have almost nothing. But they somehow still got a paraglider and they're really motivated and actually have full potential. But of course, if you can't buy anything, you can't develop further. And yeah, especially if you then have a rule that you're not allowed to go on cross-country flights, yeah, I find that a bit of a shame. I hope that in the further future, they'll let something in, that the system will get better.
Yeah, I recently read that they're also building a new airport in Pokhara, and apparently there's going to be a CTR and all that. And all the flying there—even the tandem pilots are worried that they won't be able to fly properly anymore. So, in Sarangkot and elsewhere too. Have you heard about those kinds of discussions?
Yes, of course, the airport is already all there. You can see it all from the air, that it's actually already finished. They also said they would open it in January, but they've had two or three problems now, like there's still a small mountain in front of it. And somewhere where they dump all the mulch, there's a bunch of birds around, and that would be right in the takeoff line or more or less the landing phase. So, they haven't opened it yet, but I think they'll probably open it and then it'll be that—well, the locals are still saying with the tandem that they might open it for one or two hours. But I think if it's an international airport, they won't care about that, they'll just say it's too dangerous.
Because how can you say, okay, now you have two hours, and then someone else does two hours and ten minutes.
I don't think it's that Intersport isn't taken into account as much as with the international stuff. And that's exactly Pokhara, where the lake is—that's the flight path or launch path, depending on which way the wind is coming from. But you're right in the middle of it, so they fly out right in the middle of the valley.
That means Nepal might not be that great for paragliding legally or politically, where you're saying, and in the future, maybe even from the few official launch sites there exist, it won't be that great either because of potential airspaces and such. That means India might be seen as the better destination.
Yeah, definitely. In India, well, luckily there aren't any regulations like that yet. You can say, okay, that's the cylinder and you're allowed to fly there. Of course, there are the CTRs where you have to be careful, military bases and stuff like that. But that's more regulated, I would have said, yeah, definitely.
But there are also problems in Biar occasionally. I also heard that, for example, there was some kind of tandem accident and then they said, okay, no flying allowed here for now. So everyone was grounded, so to speak.
Yes, that was this year too. They closed the train for two months because of the accident. And then the passengers got out. And the Jeep then shot over the curve because there was a bit of snow, because he had to turn it off. And then a 14-year-old girl was hit, unfortunately.
That was during the ascent, not during the flight at all. No, that was during the ascent, yes. But because that hasn't been settled yet and the politics have changed over there. And now someone else is in charge. They've completely blocked things there too.
Rafting, pretty much all extreme sports, they basically banned them. And they said that without insurance, without this and that, it won't work. Now they've had to get more or less new licenses and things like that again. But yeah, then they were lucky enough to reopen after two months.
And were you able to fly there again?
Exactly, more or less. Even before that, I mean here in Pir, I was completely blocked from Himachal Pradesh.
But in Uttarakhand and places like that, I got a permit, so it wasn't an issue at all.
Your flights in Nepal, that was in March. But then in April, you flew to Pir, and you flew great there too. And I saw that you also set a launch site record there. It even went through the glider media a bit. Philipp Zellner flew a 270-kilometer flat FAE triangle from Pir. Tell me something about that flight. Was it something special, or did that just happen by chance? You were just wandering around again.
No, actually my plan was to fly straight to the border at Kashmir and then back again. In one day or
did you want to stay overnight there and then fly? No,
I had all my bivouac gear with me and was prepared for bivouac again. Of course, whenever I fly back there, I always have it with me. So I can always decide whether to land somewhere or keep flying, depending on how I feel. For example, the day before, I only flew 100 kilometers. I was a bit tired and had a bit of a headache. So I thought, okay, I can fly to Pir, stay down for a bit, and then fly on the next day. And that's why I started from Pir. And that's how I basically went from Pir to Kashmir to the border. And then I thought, maybe I'll sleep somewhere in Dzamba. But it went so well that I flew through the Dzamba pass too, still relatively early. And then, where the key point was, Chalcobas, I hopped over that.
Basically, I knew about another colleague who I thought, ah, he's still there for five days, someone else from Sweden. And I'd really like to see him because I haven't seen him in two years. So I also tried and said, okay, now I'll fly back to Pir if possible. If not, I have my bivouac gear, I can land anywhere anyway. And yeah, then I hopped over Chalcobas with over 5,000. And then I looked at my phone and saw that if I go back to Pir now, it's more or less a detour, then I'll do 241, I remember that quite exactly. And then I said, okay, I think 260 is the record. Okay, then we still have a bit more to go.
And I pushed him a bit further. And yeah, I just happened to break the record then.
Where you're saying, you're over 5,000, you're over this pass. Is that a very close call where you're just barely making it and thinking, can I do this right now? Or is the Himalayas always so massive that you're like, wow, the pass is down there, but I'm still 500 meters or 1,000 meters above it? No, well
you have to be at least at 5,000 meters to be able to hop over it. So the pass is at about 4,500, and yeah, I'd estimate it at roughly 4,500. But further
Down there, the wind would probably be too uncomfortable.
Yeah, first of all that, and secondly, you have to land on the empty side because you're actually coming out from the north towards the south. And when you get under there, you're in the void, then you'll glide down, and then you'll probably have to land somewhere and hike up with the 30 kilos, let's say, if you can land safely. Yeah, and if you want to avoid that, you have to look over 5,000 to see if you can get up there. But I've already tried the Schlüsselstuhl a few times and looked at it. That's the only one where I really looked at how I can jump out of the valley again.
When you fly that high, do you take oxygen with you in some way, or do you say no, I'm well-acclimatized over time, I'm flying in those altitudes all the time anyway. It all works out like that.
Yeah, exactly, it's important that you're, like I said, well acclimatized. That's why I don't need oxygen, because, yeah, everything has worked out so far. Why would I take any if it's not working that way?
What you see in the pictures on Instagram and stuff, you often fly without gloves. Sometimes you think, that has to be over 3,000 meters or something. How do you do that? Isn't it cold?
Yeah, mostly it's when I have my gloves off to film or something, because you can just activate the GoPro better and all that.
Normally I fly with gloves on. But like now in the spring, it was really warm. There were times I flew at 4,000 meters without gloves. And of course, I think a lot of it is also for hardening yourself. I see it more as hardening. So, when I'm shaking the phone and stuff, I swing my hands around like that. If I get cold again, it can also happen from time to time that for an hour or two, once I'm fully in it, I can't feel my hands because I just don't have time to let go anymore and you just have to power through. And yeah, it happens once in a while. But nothing has actually frozen off yet. No, luckily not. But it is sometimes that two or three days later, I still have this tingling in my fingers.
Because it was just cold.
After that 270-kilometer record, you basically flew another record the very next day. That was 222 kilometers, but as an FAI triangle. I don't think there's been one like that in the records before. Was that actually planned? Because if you look at it as a flight, you can see, okay, this is a really quite isosceles or equilateral triangle. So, very nice, very cleanly flown, I'd say.
No, I've always done that triangle. Years ago, I did a 200er there. And I said there was easily more in it. I've always had that in the back of my mind. And I know the turn points, too. Like, where I set off in Manali, for example, I know that. Mandi and Dharamsala—I've known all of that from back then. And I definitely looked at it the day before and said, "Alright, I'll try that too." Because I was on such a roll and everything was working so well. I'd been flying every day for over a week. And then I thought, "Alright, I'll take a look at that too." And it actually worked out quite well.
A few weeks later, Jakub Benjo basically flew the same route again. A bit differently, because on the way back from Manali he went east first, whereas you flew west first, and so on. But in the end, he beat you by 400 meters. Now he has the record there, at least the FAI triangle record for Bier. How is that for you? Does it bug you a bit or do you actually not care?
No, I actually don't really care. I'm actually more happy for Kubo that he did it so well. And yeah, I mean, it makes sense. 400 meters, I'll do better next time.
You'll do better next time. So there's a bit of ambition involved, it seems. Yeah,
That's true. But it's not like I'm really angry. Why should I be? It was a beautiful flight. I also looked at where he flew and everything, and he did a great job, that man.
How important are those kinds of records to you?
No, not really much of it, in principle.
That was just... I mean, that's like the first record. Ah, a random record, cool. But when it comes to FAI, I've always wanted to have a bit of a say in those. But the thing is, I'm not a fan of always flying the same route. And there are people who try that every year, always the same route. So if I fly the same route five times, I'm already like, ah, that's boring. Because I want something new and cool. And that's why I actually have more fun flying things I've never flown before.
Do you also fly such long distances in the Alps? Like, do you try to fly FAI records there too? Or is that not really important to you? Do you say, I'll do that in the Himalayas, where I'll actually have the time for it?
Yes, I fly in the Alps too, but not such long distances. Because first of all, in the Alps, it's like you have to have time on the day it's good. And you have to be in exactly the right place, at the right spot.
And of course, I do tandem flying in the summer. And then sometimes there isn't that much time, so I can't just say, okay, if you have one or two tandems a day, you can't always say, no, I'm not doing that now. Because I have to make a living from something.
That means summer tandem, winter pleasure, and record-breaking flights. Exactly, more or less. From your experience, is it harder to fly such long distances in the Himalayas than in the Alps? So, for a 222km FAI, would you have to apply some kind of factor and say, okay, this is worth at least as much as 300 kilometers in the Alps or something?
Yeah, I mean, you can't really say it like that. I mean, of course there are mountains and valleys everywhere, and there are places where you shouldn't be and so on. That's why I say it's just, let's say, easier with us if you fly the usual routes that everyone flies. And that's just not the case over there, because you can't just go and look at XContest to see where most people are flying. Because simply not as much, as they say, not as much feedback there as we have here. There are no classic highways that are already pre-marked on the instrument, so to speak. Of course, there's the Empire, for example, or the Frontridge, for example. But as I said, I'm not a fan of flying the same route 100,000 times. After five times, it's like, ah, now I have to do something else, I don't like this anymore.
Otherwise, I lose interest in what I'm doing, and of course, I don't want that. And the other thing is, they're just numbers. For me, I've had my most beautiful flights where I didn't even go up high and flew back to Dharamsalan. And everything was so low there, where most people would say, how can you do that, it's all just one launch site altitude back to Dharamsalan. But those are the moments where you just fly different routes because you're lower. And then it makes everything more interesting again and you have less altitude and so on. It's more about struggling, and that's the beauty of it, I'll say once. It's what I really like to do. So
you also have to say, okay, now I'm really doing contour flying and trying to scramble along there and so on.
Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, you improvise a bit and think, oh, it needs to go up over there. And you don't have much altitude left, so you think, okay, now we have 1,000 meters. Then every now and then you have 400 meters left and you think, oh, now I need something. Now I have to find something somewhere. Now I have to go land somewhere or something. But yeah, those are also the exciting moments, when you're scraping by with something.
What would you say is still the biggest challenge for you on flights like these?
The biggest challenge? Yes, of course the deep valleys and the amount of wind. It's just that it can get really windy in the Himalayas.
Does that mean it's actually risky-dangerous?
Yes, there are certainly enough valleys. I remember, for example, where I flew the record, I flew through the Jamba Valley. And there, I'm telling you, it was over 30 km/h. So I was flying at 57 km/h without a speed bar. That was at 3,000 meters, and then I turned into the wind and then I was only flying at 4 km/h. And then, yeah, you look down, there's still 1,000 meters to go, and you see a stream or some small lake down there. And then you see down there how it's really hacking away. How it's really tiling. And yeah, of course you have to make sure that you don't get too low. That you say, okay, shit, if it doesn't work there now, then I have to land somewhere and have to spend the night there and start again the next morning, so that I don't do something stupid.
How do you handle situations like that, which would probably cause insane stress for most people? When you see that you have hardly any forward speed left, and it's still blowing like crazy down there, or whatever. How do you manage to stay cool, maintain your altitude, and keep flying?
Yeah, I'd say the good thing about me is that I have relatively many acro skills. During the first years when I started flying, I did everything in acro. And my colleagues and my instructors, they were great. It was more or less Ricky Basti, James Kahn, and they flew at the world championship level, so competitions in acro flying. And they were like, yeah, when I started, after 50 flights, I already did my first fullstyle. Now they just showed me my logbook. They found it at some point in the flight school in the West. And then they said, oh look, after 50 flights I already did my first fullstyle. I flew for a year, then I flew heli left and right. And then I flew for two years, flew infinity and everything.
So that's a huge advantage when you know how the glider reacts and what you can do with it. Whether it's already overshooting, pulling negatively, or then releasing it so it flies normally again and so on. That's very helpful, and that's why I say, staying a lot in the wing is key, because I'm just more relaxed where other people would probably go into a total panic. And that's the important thing.
How often do you actually have to call on those kinds of skills when flying in the mountains in the Himalayas, where you say, okay, now I really need to know how to brake it again because I had a huge stall? Or do you fly so safely that you say, I really keep the glider well above me at all times, so I very rarely get to the point where I have to say, now I need my agro-skills?
Yeah, well, I think for everyone crossing them, you're grateful for every skill you have. Because of course, these are the Himalayas, they're not just any mountains. Like I said, there's just less experience regarding everything you can do and where the potential lies. Of course, you also have to look at the maps, and where there are long valleys, you'll have more wind. Where it goes deeper, you'll naturally have more wind too. So you just go by your feelings, the experience you have. I mean, I've been flying for maybe 14 years now, and yeah, you always go by experience, by gut feeling.
So, if you were to recommend to someone what they can do or what level of skill they should have if they were even considering doing bivouac flying in the Himalayas, what would you advise people then?
Yes, first and foremost, the most important thing is that you have to be able to land well and have good control. That's the be-all and end-all, because if you land somewhere and hurt your foot, then it doesn't make any sense, or rather, it's not any fun. And you have to be patient, as I said at the beginning, when landing. You shouldn't say, "Wow, I want to turn and break into it." It's better to circle around for half an hour, an hour, and try to find a way to land, or if necessary, look for another landing spot. That just depends on how the day turns out. It's better to just invest the time.
Do you actually use those, I'd say, modern flight skills that the X-Alps pilots do now, where they say, fly in with a speed bar, then just before the slope, come out of the speed bar to then set down softly? Or do you say, no, in the end, with 30 kilos in total, it's really too risky. I try to fly in there in a way that it has to set me down gently in the end.
Yeah, exactly. I actually try to do it as gently as possible. Of course, I've never flown directly onto the mountain with a speed bar like that. But what I do as a wingover is basically the same thing. I'll say, if there's a bit of a crosswind, I'll put in a nice wingover if everything's right, and then I'll land like that. But really hacking in with full speed bar, with a full tailwind...
you'll miscalculate once, you know, it's just better to play it safe. Because of course, like I said, I don't have a spotter, nothing. I have to look out for myself to stay fit and make sure I don't end up getting injured or anything, because otherwise, you're just lost back there.
Now tell me another story towards the end. I didn't hear you mention it, but you were also involved in the rescue of a pilot who crashed somewhere far back in the mountains. Yes, he was roughly
He landed about 30 kilometers north, way back there. North of Bir, is that where he was? Exactly, exactly, behind Bir. So he somehow got into the clouds, then lost his bearings, and thought he was flying out towards Manali, but he was actually flying towards Parabangal. And yeah, I wasn't there for the rescue myself; they called me in a helicopter, and luckily, because he had a spotty, they picked him up by helicopter the next day at 10 a.m. He was lying in the stream with all his equipment. And of course, he left it all behind. Oh, he spent the whole night in the stream, or what? Yeah, he was next to the stream, but he was already wet. So I talked to him the day after, and he was wet and everything.
And he was a bit confused because he asked me if it was normal that his toes were still tingling, and I said, yeah, that's normal if you've been frozen.
And yeah, I flew in four days later and looked at everything. And he told me details, for example, I knew the points where he landed exactly. He also said the helicopter pilot told him, "Ah, look, you've placed the glider perfectly, it's very visible from the air," I noticed that. And then I took off at about four, four and a half nearby and flew out of the creek and looked, "Ah, okay, the glider is lying down there." And then I looked at it from above, like where could I sleep, what would be the best way to go up, to go down. And of course, I already had a few pictures of it and saw that it's a rock where you have to abseil, and that's why I also had a 100-meter rope for abseiling and climbing harness gear and, yeah, good school gear.
Then I flew in there, landed on three, nine, and left my paraglider and all my gear behind—the stuff I don't need for bivouacking or climbing down, I had in the zipfers, the glider and harness. After that, I went down to three, four, basically set up my basecamp down there, and of course, I downloaded a few more videos on the same day, reviewing everything—like the anchors, the knots, all of it—just repeating it all so I wouldn't mess up the next day. Then I got up at five the next day, went down at half past five, rappelled down, and checked the harness. The harness was still great, I pulled it out of the stream, but the glider was completely destroyed.
So, there were four days in the flowing water, it was about a bit less than hip-high. So the pilot was lucky, he would have been pretty lucky that nothing happened, because about ten meters behind there it went under a mass of snow again. He probably wouldn't have survived if he had ended up in there. But luckily, it all turned out fine.
Then I took off his harness, left the glider in, and then I knew I only really had two good days, or rather, the day I flew there and the other day when I fly back. I still had two days, so I took it a bit easy, packed everything up, and climbed up there. Then I went up another 100, 200 meters, and then I saw a bear. A bear? Yes, exactly. A brown bear.
or what is there in the sky? Yeah, that
was a brown bear. There are black bears too, but that was a brown bear. I just took a short video of it then.
And he looked kindly into the camera, but he left you alone or what?
Yeah, he had won some really nice bottles.
No, he was completely relaxed, I'd say.
How close were you to it?
Yeah, about 20 meters. I mean, he was really staring at me. He was standing on this tree stump and just staring at me. Then I thought to myself, okay, I'll go the other way, no stress, stay right there, you might go the other way. But then I remembered that I'd still had a few nuts in there from what I ate for breakfast, and half of them were still stuck in my cheek. And then of course I made some noises, because you think he's been staring at you the whole time, of course you're going to move. And then I thought, I'd make some proper noises, maybe he'll clear off. And that's exactly what happened.
That means one risk of bivouac flying in the Himalayas is that you could be attacked by bears.
Yeah, but I always think, I'm not doing anything to them and they're not doing anything to me.
But then you climbed even higher, kept that harness with you the whole time, and then eventually flew out with all your gear and that extra harness. How did you do that?
Yeah exactly, then I obviously dried the harness completely and then went back up from 3.4 to 3.5 with all my gear. Of course, everything was super heavy, and it was even partially wet and all that. And then I stood up there and thought, okay, we're doing this. And I had two of those sling loops with me. Then I hooked the sling loops to the carabiner and once over the back sack at the risers. And once completely around the back sack. I had secured myself twice just in case something didn't go so well. That I wouldn't somehow fly off. That was really important to me. And yeah, then I started with the whole lump at about 35 km/h side wind.
I needed three tries, of course, because with a crosswind you can't run into the glider if you have another baktel zone directly behind you. Yeah, that was, I'd say, that was a real Kung Fu start.
So it was Kung Fu Panda 2 then? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, nice. But tell me, how do you come up with the idea of saying, "He crashed somewhere back there, 30 km away. I'm flying there now to rescue his equipment"? Was that your idea, or did he ask you, or how did you come up with that?
No, that was just my idea, because I'd already achieved so much in the last few days. And I was constantly thinking, what else could I do? What would be cool? And then I heard that he landed back there. And then, when I heard that he got out just fine and nothing happened, I thought, that was actually a mission. Flying in there and getting that stuff out again.
So, even if you're there for a long time, you have to set some kind of tasks for yourself, so to speak?
Yes, I like having a task like that too. And I prefer a task where you naturally have to bite down a bit. And yeah. Where not everything is just easy. For example, I started in Manali, and in Manali, because of where it happened, they've closed the beer again. But in Manali, you were still allowed to start. Then I was in Solang the first day, but it wasn't good for starting there. Then a storm came in. After that, I went up from 2,000 to 3,000 with all my equipment the next day. And then I started there and flew into it from there.
And did the pilot get his harness back? What did he say to you then? Was he completely blindsided? Or did he know you were on your way?
No, he already knew because I met up with him in Manali and chatted with him. And he said from the very beginning that anything you get out of there is yours, because he's not there anyway. He doesn't send people in there. Because you have to go in for at least five days to get to the next valley or the next village. The village is only ten kilometers away, for example, but you have to trek there for five days. And the village consists of five houses and a heli-pad.
And he said it's not worth the trouble and whatever you find in there, you can keep it, that's yours. And now it is
yours, do you still have it?
Yeah, I already sold it. What kind of harness was it? It was a Neo-Suspender. Oh, even a pretty valuable one. Yeah, yeah, but like I said, I can't take everything with me and I would have had to pay for overweight luggage on the plane. So I said, I'll leave it in India.
But I mean, you can actually finance a vacation that way by saying, look, I always fly out the gear that other pilots leave behind somewhere in the mountains and then I sell it. And in the end, India isn't that expensive, so I can manage if I somehow sell a Neo-Suspender there.
Yeah, that definitely works.
No, the others already told me to get down next time. I don't think it's just the helicopter, they'll just let me know.
Yeah, you can start a new company with that.
Yeah, then I can fly in with the tandem and pick them up.
Now you're back in the Alps, and you already mentioned earlier that you do tandem flights in the summer—you have your own tandem business at the Hohe Salve, in Tyrol, rather.
Yeah, exactly.
What is it like for you when you get back into this, I'd say, everyday routine? After all those adventurous things you experienced in the Himalayas, and now you're back to being tied to appointments, having to coordinate with people on when and how you fly, and then you just do these short tandem flights, maybe 20 minutes or something. How does that feel, when you've actually just enjoyed absolute aerial freedom and now you're just the tandem pilot?
Yeah, it's also nice to get back into the routine again. In principle, not much has changed for me. Everything's stayed the same, for example here at home—you come back, you have your old colleagues, you have your passengers again, and you fly again. As for me, I just love being in the air and that's all that matters. That's the best part. Or if you want to be good at paragliding, for example, and then somehow work out of that—I spend a lot of my time in the air and that's important to me.
But compared to that super exciting flying you do in the high mountains of the Himalayas, does this tandem flying ever get boring for you, or do you really feel like it's a completely different story?
No, it feels like a completely different story, because you're actually showing every other pilot or passenger what you like. You only ever show the small stuff you enjoy, right? Of course, there are a few—for example, I now also offer cross-country flying with the tandem. That's all, you know, if someone says they want to do cross-country flying for an hour or something like that, that's no problem at all, I'm happy to do that too. And more and more people keep saying they just want to stay in the air longer. It's really cool when you can fly for that long with a second passenger. And we're also looking into whether we can do something in India, either bivouac guiding or with a tandem. If someone says, okay, they want to do that, they can message me and then I'll do those kinds of things.
With the pilots in the Alps now, or not pilots, with your passengers in the Alps, they say, I want to do cross-country flight too. Do you still sometimes have experienced pilots, or rather already trained pilots, who say, hey, I can certainly learn something from Philipp? I'll go cross-country flying with you and you explain to me how and what exactly you do there?
Yes, definitely. I mean, you can learn from anything. The important thing is that you explain it all nicely, right? If I fly there now, why am I flying there? Why are we coming first? The wind, the thermals, where does that come from? And of course, a lot of people can learn something from that, right? Because that's just, I'd say, tandem flying is, coincidentally, where I also set a record in the Bier, I also set a tandem record.
As well? This year?
Yeah, that was in three days, I set three records.
First the 270, then the 222 FAI, and then you pushed the tandem record right after.
Yeah, I set a tandem record on the 139. And I flew in behind the locals too and told him, look, now the others are all picking up speed with the good gliders. So they all had the high-performance ones. And then I said, look, we're flying deep into it now with the tandem. I know that the valley wind pushes in a bit there. And that they have to fly against the wind at the top and we're flying with the wind. I know it's a good spot, we'll pick up speed there and then you'll see, we've overtaken them all. And that's exactly how it happened. So I explained exactly to him where everything is good for flying and how you can fly into it with the wind. And of course, you always have to watch out in case something doesn't work, so that you can get out again. But as I said, I fly there so often and I know the area quite well.
And I showed him, and all the others were like, no way. Philipp is already overtaking us with the tandem.
And did your passenger, the one who flew with you, get scared? I mean, you say it works, we do it, and we fly deep into the valley. It's probably quite a hurdle for the person sitting in front, thinking, "Oh shit, he must know what he's doing back there behind me."
Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I'm kind of a legend over there, so first of all, people trust me. And second, I've flown into the back there with him a few times. He lives back there; there's a small village a bit further back where he lives. And then he asked me once if I'd fly into the back with him and over his valley. And I said, yeah, for sure, let's do it, no problem at all. That's what I really like about it—when you do it with people, like with tandem, you can really coach them, right? You're right there and can tell them why you're flying exactly there and why you're doing it now. I think, yeah, let's see, maybe we'll expand on that a bit in a beer, saying, okay, you can do coaching, either tandem or bivouac.
Just doing a guide service or something like that. It would be really cool if you could teach people things and all that, I really like that too.
So you're already planning again, okay, this summer I'm at Hohensalbe, flying my tandems there, and then in October I'll fly to Biarritz again and maybe do my coaching and other work there. Yeah.
that I might say I have a few people there or I don't know, that I'm doing it for a week or I don't know. Because the colleague over there asked me, he wants to set something up and he asked me if I'd join in. And I say, yeah, yeah, if you have something, I don't really believe it right now, but then we'll do something. Because now I already have a bit of a name from him, yeah, what does name mean, not really. But as you say, the media have already pointed out a bit that I flew some kind of record somewhere.
The Himalaya legend.
Yeah.
Yeah, anyway, you don't need me right now.
Yes.
Yeah.
Alright, Philipp, thank you for telling such a great story. Himalaya -Legende and Kung -Fu -Panda, I really like them. I hope people enjoyed listening to it now. Thank you for sharing, you have so many, many adventures. Yes, thanks. I hope you always, always land safely, even without a Spot or inReach and just manage to get out. I definitely wish you that, you have the skills, but then maybe in extreme cases, you'll also have the necessary luck. And I'm curious to see what other exciting stories will come from you in your future.
Yes, wonderful. I'd like to thank you once again as well. It was a pleasure.
Yes, I'd love to.
If you've listened this far, I assume you enjoyed the stories of the Beer King Philipp Zellner. A podcast like this doesn't just fall from the sky. I put a lot of time, passion, and work into it. Professional research, editing, recording, cutting, hosting, and much more all need to be financed somehow. I would be very happy if you would make a contribution as a supporter. You can find out how easy that is on the website of my blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the Support page. On Lu-Glidz, you can also find the show notes for this episode, along with a series of related links, such as to the tracks from Philipp's Himalaya flights. Lu-Glidz can be found online at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com.
Lu-Glidz is spelled Lu-Glidz. My name is Lucian Haas. The next podcast episode is already in the works. See you soon. Ciao.