And even when we went to a mountain later, we had a glide ratio meter with us. We'd look from the top to see if it would work over the trees, if we could make it to the next meadow. The devices were already relatively small and light back then, right at the very beginning. But the problem was, we mostly went back down because we didn't make it across to the meadow. So glide ratios of two and a half, that was already quite good.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with
Daniela Altmann.
And I am Lucian Haas.
Every flying area has its own character. And by that, I don't just mean the natural conditions, but also the flying community that gathers there. At some launch sites, it's always stressful and performance-oriented. Elsewhere, everything feels relaxed and communal. I had an experience of the latter category when I recently spent a week in Hinterstoder, Austria. At the landing field, it soon became clear to me why. That's where I met Daniela Altmann. She has been a flight instructor for 33 years and has already trained countless generations of pilots in Hinterstoder with her small local flight school. And I would say, you can tell. It's her spirit, her influence, that can be felt there. One afternoon, when flying in Hinterstoder was at a standstill due to overly turbulent high-altitude winds, I took the opportunity to use this 87.
to record the Podz-Glidz episode with Dani. We had the conversation in front of the flight school hut at the landing field. There, she told me her story. In the beginning, there was hang gliding before the paraglider era. It becomes clear later that much of what Dani teaches her students today has to do with the slightly different attitude hang glider pilots have toward flying. By the way, the recording of the podcast was so spontaneous that I didn't have my usual professional equipment ready for the recording at all and had to improvise. With a few tricks in post-production, including filtering out occasionally distracting street noises, I was able to bring the audio quality up to a good listening level. However, I ask you to excuse the minor compromises here and there this time.
If you enjoy Podz-Glidz, please consider supporting my work as a patron. You can find out how to do that easily and without any obligation on the support page of my blog's website.
Dani, how many years have you been a flight instructor now?
I haven't counted, but if I say since '89, you can do the math yourself.
89, 99, 2009, that would be 30, 33 years now.
Yes, but of course not with my own flight school, I did my training in other flight schools back then. So I was at the Flugschule Aufwind, I was in Vorarlberg at the Niedere, I was in Seefeld, still with Steger back then, Komet, if he still says anything. I was with Gasteiger and so I gathered a bit of experience. And well, as it turned out, it didn't work out with the love and I would have had to go back to my old job as a chemical laboratory technician in Munich, but I then decided that somehow that's not going to work anymore and looked into opening my own flight school, and I've had my own flight school in Hinterstoda since '96.
'96, so that's 89 started, so seven years later?
Well, the seven years don't count, because of my great love, I took a break at one point and spent some time in America and some time in New Zealand, where we actually wanted to start a flight school. And it was just that once the money ran out, the idea of opening a flight school came up. But my boyfriend was a son of the profession and that didn't work out. And then the decision was made. Yes. I'm going back to Munich. I'm a Munich native, or I'll start something of my own, and I actually succeeded in that, even though Hinterstoda isn't very easy for a Munich native.
Well, you've been doing this for exactly 33 years now, and from what I've seen of you, you're still putting your heart into it. How do you stay motivated as a flight instructor? How do you keep the fun in it, and keep passing that on to others?
It doesn't always work out, but of course, you try to do things that are fun. And it's fun to teach someone to fly when you know for sure afterwards that they're going to become a pilot. So, not just some vacation activities, like going paragliding for a week—I did paragliding for about...—but really training people whom you then see again over the years, where some of my first students have now become my tandem pilots, my assistants, and good pilots. And that, of course, makes it fun.
What makes a good pilot for you? A
A safe pilot is a good pilot. So for me, good pilots aren't people who fly cross-country or competitions, but people who have fun flying, know their own limits, and the nice thing about Hinterstoder or our area is that every pilot is seen as a pilot, even if they actually just take off, land, maybe buy a beer after landing, and enjoy flying, and if they only fly in the mornings in calm air—so they know their limits. And of course, there are very ambitious pilots who also flew along with us at our state championship, some of whom come from my flight school. But there have also been aerobatic pilots from my flight school, but the path after training splits and everyone finds their own fun. Some go mountain flying with us, others do aerobatics, the next ones fly competitions, and others just enjoy a calm glide or a light thermals flight.
During the season, how often do you still go flying yourself, or are you actually always the instructor?
The lot with being a flight instructor is that when the weather is nice for flying, you have very few helpers. I don't have any permanent staff; it's all self-employed, registered as self-employment. That means when the flying weather is really good, I'm usually the one standing at the practice slope or the landing field. But in the off-season and the pre-season, I manage to fly every now and then, and of course, tandem flying is a lot of fun when the passenger is really enjoying it. That gives so much back, too. And as for solo flying, I have to say, real solo flying—where I'd say, I'm flying cross-country now or I'm out on a trip—unfortunately, I don't get to do that anymore. But for me, mountaineering is simply the best thing. Just going up the mountain, enjoying it a bit, looking around, having some peace and quiet, and then flying some thermals.
And I also have very light equipment, so it's not suitable for cross-country flying.
If you say that even in the best weather, you're on the practice slope with people—are there days where you get really frustrated, where you get angry about it and think, or is it so fulfilling for you that you say, no, they're all smiling so happily when they've done their first little jumps there. The best thing is actually
to see the laughter on their faces after that first flight and the joy that comes out of it. Of course, it's often tedious, and naturally, when the flying weather is good, everything happens all at once. So, the practice slope, the solo flights, the tandem flights—it does get a bit stressful. But if nothing went wrong in the evening, everything is put away again, and everyone is happy, then it usually works out fine. The main stress is always planning the weekend before, because everyone expects me to do the planning. And with the weather we're having right now, planning is always difficult.
When you run courses, how many people do you usually have standing there on the practice slope?
That's actually been proven over the last few years, that you don't have very many people standing on the practice slope. So five or six is okay for my small flight school. Then you have individual training and you get back to the practice slope quickly. Then you move on to the launches and also to the high flights quickly. So I'm not a flight school where suddenly 25 people are standing at the launch site. I wouldn't do that to myself. And above all, I wouldn't do that to my launch leaders.
So, you really have the basic course with these five or six people?
A basic course with three people makes sense, up to five or six people, no more. That works quite well. You just have to go to the practice slope a bit more often than if you had a large group. But in the end, you're finished with the flights just as quickly.
And here we are in Hinterstoder. You have a practice slope near the landing field, but it has its own landing field. Otherwise, the high-altitude flight you do here is a direct 1,200 meters. Do you trust your flight students with that right away? That's actually a huge leap.
So I always say, the altitude doesn't matter, but the launch wind, the launch opportunity, and also the wind during landing. In between, it can't hurt you. Of course, it's mentally different if I can see a landing field or if I can't. We have three training areas in total. There's one here in Micheldorf. It has 300 and 500 meters of altitude. Especially at that time, when the lift is closed. We have a mountain in Windischgersten with 700 meters of altitude. I'd say that's not so easy from a launch perspective. I don't like to use it for a first flight. And in Hinterstoder, if the wind is right, it's also okay. It just has more altitude. But altitude doesn't hurt. It's the launch—and the landing field—where he has to concentrate.
And if the wind and weather are right, Hinterstoder isn't a problem for a first high-altitude flight either.
Have you been doing this for over 30 years? Have you seen a change in the way people get into paragliding, or how they want to learn it, or maybe even the types of people who want to learn to fly? Or is it actually always the same types of people who do something like this? In terms of the type of person you might encounter?
It's actually always the same. There are three categories. Either very young people who still expect something out of life, and the dream of flying is always there. That means even if someone is 50, we also have 60 or 65-year-olds—no problem at all these days. They're all fit. But at some point in life, you reach a stage where you want to do something special or fulfill a dream. And that's definitely flying.
When did you get the dream of flying?
I moved out of my parents' house relatively early, at 16. And I immediately looked at what I could afford and manage to snag for my first holiday as an apprentice. And I've always wanted to fly. And right away, I saw the Dolomites, Sillian. So I zipped off there in my Fiat and did my first course, my kite course.
So you started with kites, right? Back then, there weren't any...
Paragliders didn't exist yet, it was 1982, they were just starting to emerge. And flying was actually still limited to hang gliding.
Were there actually any decent kites for your weight class back then?
Actually, no. I was a girl weighing 45 kilos back then. I'm not very tall either. A bit taller in the morning than at night. But the problem was that the kites were too big, too heavy. The harness was too big. So I mostly had it somewhere around my ankles. But it worked. And then there was a bit of a break because I couldn't afford my own gear. And it took a while until I finally found a small glider in my price range that I could fly well with.
And when did paragliding come into the picture? That
Paragliding came along a bit before my flight instructor course, so around our time, like '86, '88 were the first ones there. And I also maybe in '88 hung from something somewhat similar to a paraglider for the first time, which you couldn't have called a paraglider yet.
Can you still remember that first paraglider flight? A
Windsuits with a metal rail or... At the
harness with a metal rail where you could basically... Exactly,
Exactly. And those were some really wild machines. And I can still remember clearly, the first time in the ski resort somehow taking off with the skis over the bumps, a hundred times over the bumps, until you finally managed to fly. And even when we went to a mountain later, we had a glide ratio gauge with us. You'd look at the top to see if it would work over the trees, if you could make it to the next meadow. The machines were already relatively small and light back then, right at the beginning. But the problem was, we mostly went back down because we didn't make it across to the meadow. So glide ratios of two and a half, that was already quite good.
That has to... I mean, you'd look at the glide angle gauge and say it has to be more than two. Otherwise
you can't get to the meadow over the trees. So the problem was that sliding out over the trees, over the forest, was often not possible with the equipment. And then it had to go back down.
And how did you factor the wind into that? Or did you calculate it? Or not at all, but just looked at it and it had to be... I add a bit of a safety margin to that.
When starting, you already needed the wind, otherwise you wouldn't have taken off at all. So you really packed it in, kept your hands up, and once... you ran and at some point, when you felt the speed was right, you braked and then kept running. But it didn't have any quirks from the aircraft, so there obviously wasn't anything negative or anything like that. It was just flying down and not flying thermals. And my flight instructor back then, Brodnig, always said that once you get over the middle station from the top of the Höss with a paraglider, then we're talking about flying. So back then, we didn't even get past that little bit over the middle station in Hinterstoder, but landed back at the top instead.
So, on the middle level of the ridge. Exactly, right. But you already started way up at the top. Right, but... But the glide angle didn't make it over the edge at the front.
Exactly, so no chance. And of course, that got better over time, but what was a shame were the years '90 to '92, '93. The good wings were of course dangerous, and of course, several people were knocked down with them. Then, of course, the first competition gliders came out, like the Nova Phantom and, and, and, which were also very tricky. And unfortunately, there were a lot of accidents then. And thank God, that time is over.
Did it ever knock you down in any way?
No, not really. I mean, I can say I survived my career pretty well. I was a bit more cautious with paragliding. So if I had done that nonsense while paragliding—what I did with the glider back then as a beginner—I probably wouldn't have survived it.
But you didn't know back then that it was nonsense. It only clicked for you in hindsight, and you just survived it by luck, saying it turned out fine, and only later did you realize what kind of mess you were actually getting yourself into. So...
The dangerous time was, if you don't understand, when you go up the mountain again during a Föhn, even though everyone else says no, or when you overlook that a cold front is coming. And if I hadn't had the family association from the club in Windisch-Görsten, I probably wouldn't have survived hang gliding. And that was my advantage. I skipped all this nonsense—Föhn, cold fronts, thunderstorms—when I was doing tandem gliding.
When you're flying here now, how often do you actually get around to saying, "I can go for a pleasure flight myself"?
Yes, as I said, when I fly tandem, it's always like, it's always a pleasure flight because you have the joy of the passenger. And in Hinterstoda you saw, those are very extensive, beautiful tandem flights. That's really fun, I have to say. And it should be fun for my pilot too. Otherwise, for me, flying is always when I have my peace and don't have to be anywhere, but have free time, then for me it's pleasure flying. Or in the autumn, you often go on hikes with the students, just walk up because the cable car isn't running. Then I can, of course, fly down beforehand. It's a real pleasure, but I have to be down at some point because the students waiting up there, you should then brief them down below.
What does flying give you personally?
When I get into it, it's about peace and no stress. For me, flying isn't about shuffling, like many people do—going up five or six times, folding, and going up again. So a nice flight, a calm flight, even if it doesn't last long, means a lot more to me than going up three or four times.
So it sounds almost like something meditative, right?
Kiting is meditative because of how it works: you spend an hour setting up your kite, always in the same order, you sit up there, and you wait until you hope that thermals come up, because otherwise you're right back down with the kite, and then you only fly the kite once. And kiting should be just as calm and meditative, but of course, in training, the students have to get into a routine, and you only get that routine through launches. And that's why, of course, in training, you look for a bit of progress when the weather is right, so that they can manage several launches—not in one day, but still, when they get there, several launches. And afterwards, it should lean more towards calmness, so that they can also unwind from the stress of their jobs. That's why many people do it when they have stress at work or at home, and of course, it doesn't do any good if they only unwind three or four times.
Then a nice flight is enough and that's that.
Do you see many pilots actually getting to the point where they say, I practice flying in a way that I really see it as
...contemplative, calm, find some peace? Or is the idea of performance actually still way too widespread?
Yes, specifically in Hinterstow, I make sure that all the pilots are the same; there's no idea of performance. So, no one is ever looked at sideways because they haven't flown a cross-country flight in ten years. And that doesn't count. Everyone has to figure out for themselves what they enjoy. So there's actually no pressure at all, neither from the pilots, nor from me, nor from the students. And if someone just comes down or flies back and has no ambitions to fly cross-country, that's also okay.
And when you see the guests who come here—those who aren't learning from you and maybe also don't share your philosophy of flying, since you're shaped by your flight instructor in a certain way, probably, and that gets passed on—but if you say guests come here who are flying in Hinterstow for the first time, do you find that they have a different attitude?
Not necessarily a different attitude, but of course I understand it—if you have a week of vacation and you're in a flying area, then flying is the priority, not going hiking or sightseeing. But still, it doesn't matter. You can only fly if the weather permits, and there's no pressure, but the understanding is there: if I'm on a flying holiday, I want to fly. I mean, I often go places like Lanzarote or Tenerife, and if it's not flyable, I'll check out the cactus plantations or go wine tasting or look at the cochineal insects. But when the weather is right, they want to fly. And of course I understand that. But there shouldn't be any pressure regarding how long or how far someone flies.
Are there things like XContest and the VXC for German pilots and stuff like that? Do you experience that in your—I don't know how you shape your flight school—but that they might be looking at that too much, always checking and saying, "But I've already got this many points here" or whatever else?
That's actually not the case at my flight school. I don't even have a proper GPS-Vario because I'm not interested in it at all. It can beep, that's enough. And of course, the students develop and small groups form. But it's not like I'm necessarily providing advanced training in that direction. We already have thermals courses, cross-country courses, or ground handling courses. But with us, the whole thing splits off. So one person becomes more of a mountaineer, has mountaineering gear, and places more value on that, and the cross-country pilots among us—they communicate and exchange information with each other anyway. But practically, it's a completely different group.
Do the cross-country pilots fly out of Hintersturde a lot too, or do they tend to look for other launch sites where they say it's much better for cross-country flying?
Yes, that's seasonal. So in the spring, Micheldorf and Sender are definitely better because it's not so humid. The base is also outside, in Windisch Gersten, often a bit higher, by about 200 meters. So as a cross-country flight mountain, it's definitely very good out there in Windisch Gersten. But the later in the year it gets, the higher you have to go to get a thermal connection. At some point, Micheldorf is cross-country dead because you're not very high there. The Sender in Windisch Gersten isn't quite at 1300, and it gets tight there too. And in Hintersturde, we don't just have the 1850 meters of altitude, but also narrow valleys with rugged rocks and good thermals. So we fly almost entirely on thermals in Hintersturde all year round. Even in December, you can fly on thermals. And our cross-country season actually starts as early as February in Hintersturde.
But it has its pros and cons. High mountains, lots of snow, lots of moisture, and the cloud base isn't that high. And in our area, we have three flight sites available, also towards the Enztal, the Stoderzinken, which are certainly better cross-country mountains than Hintersturde at certain times of the year due to the wind. And a good pilot will always pick the mountain that suits them best.
Was there a time when you were also very interested in cross-country flying yourself, or was that never really your thing?
Well, when it comes to paragliding, I have to say, never, because a kiting pilot is afraid under the paraglider. Unfortunately, I started kiting well, but then competitions or routes, let's just say, fell a bit into the water. And yes, I had some nice flights, but I didn't fly actual route competitions with the kite. And the big downside was that kiting from the training became less and less, while paragliding became more and more. And if you put a kiting pilot under a paraglider, the way it was back then, it's up and down and you can't give it gas and you don't know, "how do I get there?" So for a long time, you don't feel comfortable as a real kiting pilot under the paraglider, under that wobbly thing where you don't go any meters further, in German terms.
But with the small gliders that were available and with tandem flying, there's a bit more pressure in the canopy, so it does work.
If I'm hearing you correctly, you're actually still a kite flyer at heart.
That's right, but I haven't flown kites in a long time. Even my kite training has pretty much tapered off. So, in the beginning, I still had kite students. In terms of passion, the feeling of flight, and the physical effort, of course, kite flying is completely different from paragliding. But the lightness, the simplicity, and what paragliders are capable of nowadays have completely changed. In the beginning, they really were, if I may say, bags—or "Pillersackerl" as they say in German. But now you can actually call a paraglider an aircraft. And the development hasn't just gone towards performance, but also towards safety. And in that regard, the paraglider certainly has its place. Because the real kite flyers fly from March until maybe August or September, and then it becomes uninteresting. And in that interval, paragliding is also very beautiful.
You just said that as a kiting pilot, you feel insecure under the paraglider. Do you still feel that way today, like you sometimes feel insecure under the paraglider because you think it's just some wobbly bag? Or has that completely changed based on your experience?
That has changed over the years, especially with the equipment getting better and faster. So, I don't feel insecure under the wing. But a kite, where you can give it a bit of gas when it's empty, that's just not a paraglider. But over the years, I have felt confident and it's also fun. However, I've had a lot of retraining. So, going from a kite flyer to a paraglider pilot, as a flight instructor, that's almost harder than when a pedestrian comes along. Because it's something completely different. A kite flyer takes a step and it has to fit. They have to give it gas. A kite flyer doesn't look up and look at the glider. And if it's empty somewhere or there's turbulence, they give it gas. They have to give it gas. So, it's actually control over paragliding, and you notice that already during the training.
And if someone just says, "I'm a power kite pilot, can I get a discount?" I usually say, "No, you pay 50 euros more."
Because it also takes longer to get him to that point, right?
Yes, because even when steering, a kiting pilot has to counteract it. So he steers, lets out, steers against, steers again. It's really completely different from when you're training a pedestrian and they have to do that from kiting. If he was a good kiting pilot, he'll figure it out because it's something completely different. And vice versa is the same. A paraglider, he moves forward, goes in front of the harness, gives gas even though there's grass there, and when it gets critical, he has to give gas again because otherwise he can't steer. So it's completely different again. You can't look up and do a control check when kiting. Or if it gets turbulent somehow, we support the glider and the kite gives gas. And that's why I actually have more work with retraining than if someone is just starting out.
Are there things where you would say that as a paraglider pilot, you would benefit from having a bit of kite knowledge?
What you notice in the training is that when it comes to altitude and thermals flying later on, they're actually better off. So, with the retraining, the actual problem is the launching and the landing. Once they're in the air, the thermals, the turning, the circling—he can do that. That's not as bad anymore. But when it comes to the practice field, or even the landing pattern, that's not a problem. But the launching is just difficult. That's hard to retrain.
Have you ever retrained people from paragliding to power kites? Yes, I have. Are there difficulties there too?
I just said the same thing. So, from paraglider to power kite, it always stays behind the harness. It never moves forward with the center of gravity. It often stays in the turn for so long that it crashes, instead of swinging back out. So, knowing the other piece of equipment doesn't give you any advantage when retraining. The only advantage is that, once you're up there, they aren't afraid of the height and find it easier when flying thermals.
Because you already know the airflow more or less and know what a thermal feels like when you fly into it and stuff. What's it like flying thermals in Hinterstoder? Are there any specific characteristics?
There are months where we say it's like flying refrigerators. You don't need a variometer for that.
And Hinterstoder always has good thermals when the sun is out. Micheldorf is more demanding. It's lower there. You have to be very careful and search for something with a vario right away just to get up, otherwise you'll end up at the landing field immediately. And in Hinterstoder, there are people who fly specifically around the thermals because one is too strong for them. But you can describe the thermals in Hinterstoder as strong from March to July. Tight and rough. And throughout the year, they become increasingly large-scale, softer, and actually stay buttery smooth until December. So the most beautiful, calm flights are either in the evening or then in the summer from... October, September, October.
Why is the thermic activity so strong here?
Yeah, because... How do you explain that? If you look at the mountains, the rocks back there, high-alpine terrain, high mountains, and a narrow, closing valley that rises in the back. And everything that comes up from thermals is down. It gets sucked out of the valleys. So, seven or eight meter faces are normal for us.
Normal? Normal. How do you handle that with the flight students then?
Flying in the morning and letting the thermals out. There are weather conditions, very strong high-pressure systems, or weather conditions where it's just already equally warm at the landing field and the launch site for days, or there's almost no difference. In those cases, we won't be able to expect much thermals either. And otherwise, the students have one or two flights in the morning. You just have to push the group a bit so that the last one doesn't get too much thermals. Then there's... either they drive home or there's a longer break. Then they get taken up with the last lift and do a nice evening flight. So during this main thermals time—I'd say depending on the season, from 12 to 4—we actually don't have any students in the air.
And tandems? Do you still do those?
Thankfully, I have very good, experienced, veteran tandem pilots. Maybe one or two younger ones. But my tandem pilots don't fly mainly for the money, so they're not under pressure. And you don't have to worry when a tandem pilot takes off; he can judge that for himself. And in Hinterstadt, every passenger has a nice flight. We'll get 1,200 meters of altitude out of it anyway. The panorama is beautiful. And if there's a bit of lift, of course he'll like to fly a bit longer and circle up. We don't charge extra if we fly longer either. If the passenger says he wants to go down, then he just goes down. But otherwise, the pilot has enough time to say, okay, we'll fly for 45 minutes or an hour or half an hour, depending on how it goes. You can't book that in advance.
But isn't it the case that when the thermals are so strong that the other flyers start feeling bad pretty quickly or something like that?
Then he just gets flown out, does a valley crossing. Maybe he can catch a bit more over there on the Gegenberg or the Oettlberg. He doesn't have to force a turn around in there. So every passenger decides. But if it's quite rough, he'll just fly him out over the edge and then see if he can catch a bit more on the way out. Otherwise, he's also in the air for 25 minutes. So for some, a calm flight is really enough. Every passenger is different. And the pilot, that's his job—he's supposed to give the passenger fun, not himself.
What do you have from Hinterstoder itself? Are there any specific flights where you say, I can still remember that perfectly because it was such a special moment for you?
I can basically only say that I've been flying for a long time, but every flight is different. It's every passenger, or it's always something else. I never get bored. And of course, there are also nice, calm autumn flights. And I'm anyway more of a person who likes the calm thermals, where everyone—sorry, cross-country pilots with two GPS units and with... well, where they're standing down there and Dani is still scratching around a bit carefully. But of course, there are also days where you think, wow, that's getting really intense. And then you hold on to the slope and hope that the passenger can handle it. If the wind says it's not standing like this at the landing field, but like that, then you think for a second. But there hasn't been a flight where I was afraid or anything, or plan B or whatever, but from extreme thermals to butter-smooth, flat autumn thermals or where the trees are changing color.
Winter is very beautiful. So, I can't say that there was any specific flight—I've never had a crash or a tree landing in that direction. That means I don't have any flights in my memory like that; there are just beautiful impressions and, of course, nice passengers who are having fun, or cool young people doing it for the third time who have to tap their helmets to see if they like it. But in terms of emotions, tandem flying is just very beautiful. Or the students when they land for the first time on a high flight—I think you took some with you yesterday. They have a grin on their faces, they're happy, and that's how it's supposed to be.
From what you just said, the long-distance cross-country pilots with their original conditions—they've already landed and you're still holding on. What's your trick for being able to stay up well in weak thermals?
Tugging on the butt. So, in the end, it's just about searching and looking a bit, and not trying to force it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And if it does, you just sort of scratch around a bit, and that's actually almost more fun than what I said before about flying refrigerators, because then everyone gets on board.
But do you have any special techniques where you say, "Ah, I also shift the weight outward," or any of those secret things—I mean, what do you mean by secret, but where some people say, "Yeah, there are still these special tricks and stuff"? And anything else?
There are no tricks. I mean, you just have to see what kind of gear you're flying, how many turns you're sinking. It could be that if you lean in, you have to support it a bit on the other side. There are gliders that actually pull into the thermals when you let them out on the outside. I mean, everyone has to decide that for themselves from the harness and find their own technique. And that's the beauty of it—that not everything is always the same. So, trying to invent something now, like how I turn in better or to the right or to the left, that's just, how should I put it, a feeling. You just have to do that yourself on-site. And everyone has a different glider, everyone has a different harness, a different favorite side. So the discussion there is pointless anyway.
So you're more of a... what does that mean, more of a... well, you're a "gut pilot," if you want to put it that way. I always distinguish between the "head pilots" who try to explain everything and find a theory for it, and then there are the others who just head to the mountain, point their nose into the wind and say, "Today it's flying," and then they go out and fly great too. And if you then ask why it's flying there, and you say, "Yeah, yeah, because it was obvious, it goes up up front," and you ask, "But why?" Then they can't explain it to you because it's obvious to them; they'll just say, "Well, my nose told me it goes up up front."
I think I belong more to that group. No, as I said, I can't even explain a state-of-the-art GPS to someone right now because I don't need it. I'm not the kind of flyer who looks back at the flight afterwards to see how high and where I banked, and, and, and. Those are specialists who have the time to deal with that. But I'm more of a gut flyer, and sometimes I fly with no data at all and go up just the same, at least the Hinterstoder. So, yeah, I'm a bit removed from that category. I'd say go up, look, check the wind, see where it's coming from, check the sun's position, consider the season, consider the humidity, and then try it once, see what happens, and then plan.
It can go well, it can go wrong, then we just try again.
But do you also check the weather online every morning?
But every pilot has to do that anyway, otherwise you wouldn't go flying. So first, there's the surface weather map, then of course the wind conditions, and then you also look at how the last few days were, what weather-wise is coming from the surface weather map for the next few days, and after that, you make your plan. The important thing is that I always go flying informed and don't say, "the others are going flying, I'm going flying too and choosing my own risk." Because after a very strong cooling or a cold front, the students often call me and say, "Tomorrow it's going to be nice, tomorrow we're going flying." No, I'm sorry, tomorrow we're not flying on the lee side. Because we're waiting a bit longer. Because it...
too active
and it's too thermal. And the other long-haul pilot says, "Chief, it's raining, I need a day off tomorrow, there's a back side, I'm going to fly there." So everyone just has to look at their own limits a bit and see what they enjoy.
What would it be like, could you imagine if you could no longer fly?
There are other nice sports too, but I can't imagine it right now. I don't fly that much during the season anymore or I don't go out as a flight instructor as much, but I still have my paraglider lying around, for example. So I'm not giving up my paraglider, my harness. The possibility to go flying is still there, and also with the paraglider. I always have a glider lying somewhere that fits my weight. And I can't imagine it right now; there would have to be something physical for me to no longer be able to fly.
What would you miss?
The flying.
Actually, the peace, the being above, and the freedom. Like I said, I wouldn't care about being able to say afterwards, "Wow, I flew there," but simply being able to go up the mountain, take a look, and fly down.
Just being completely self-determined in that moment, just being yourself.
Just me, and if it goes up a bit, that's good; a calm, beautiful glide in the autumn is just as nice. That's actually enough from a flying perspective.
Alright Dani, then I hope you have many more of those beautiful flights.
Yes, I'm getting on in years, but I think I'll be doing it for a few more years. That
Flying. That's also the beauty of flying, that you can actually fly for a relatively long time.
Well, you have to say, we often see the early retirees as the best students because, first, they have time, second, they have money, and third, they have shot knees. They don't want to hike down the mountain anymore. And then the training is much more relaxed because they just have no stress about whether they do it in a week, two weeks, or in two months. So we're actually the best students.
I read somewhere—I don't even know anymore, it was from a flight school—they do a flight trip once a year, specifically for I think over 65s or something. And the flight instructor even said it's the most relaxed trip of all, because they all just want to have one nice flight a day, everyone is in a good mood and
then it is
and they'll be completely satisfied with their first flight, and no one will say "but it wasn't" or "I was down too early" or anything like that, because they're not flying for longer than an hour anyway, and they'll really say this type of flight experience is the best. So it seems this type of flight school is also the best.
You just have to take the pressure off during the training. I mean, the course is paid for. For us, it doesn't matter how long the course takes. And like I said, if I'm lucky, we often have people come back even though it's actually their height during the week. Because we have the nice flights. And after the course, they're somehow integrated into our big school family anyway and aren't completely alone. That fits really well. And if he needs longer, then he needs longer. But often the stress comes from the student themselves, saying, I have the course now and then I have no time. And I usually say, if you don't have time after that, you don't have time to fly either. So it doesn't matter anyway when he finishes it. And I think it's often like that professionally too, when you take out the stress and the "have to" - it doesn't really rush along anymore.
What was the oldest student you've had here so far?
Over 70. And of course, as a pilot, it depends—we have older pilots who are really fit, both mentally and physically. But it can also happen that a pilot is fit at that age and then maybe two years later isn't as sharp mentally anymore. It's also the flight instructor's responsibility to tell someone that the sport isn't for them. Because after the training, they're alone and could get hurt. Some people are sensible anyway and realize, even though they might have flown a bit before, that it's no longer the right sport. Just in terms of concentration, sorting the lines, and reaction time. Otherwise, we don't really have any very old flyers who are over 80 or 85.
So, a pilot who flew in Micheldorf last time will be 80 in two years, and he says, "When I'm 80, I'm going to stop," because simply starting and everything just doesn't work as well anymore. But during the training, as long as he's still fit, you look at it on the practice slope, and then the flight instructor has to decide if it's still a sport, because he'll be standing alone on the mountain.
How often has it happened that you've actually told people, no, I'd rather not?
It happens all the time, but it's not age-dependent. That doesn't play a role.
So there are also 30-year-olds who are so clumsy that you'd say flying isn't for them. No, that has nothing to do with it.
It's not about being clumsy, but if I don't feel comfortable in the air, then I don't need to fly at 1,200 meters. So if I notice there's a bit of fear—I mean, respect is always good, but fear along with it—or if I say, for example, that a man is only flying because the woman is flying, that doesn't achieve anything. If he's not having fun up there, then it's smarter, I always say, go diving, that's also a nice sport.
Now, when you run the flight school alone as a woman, do you notice that you're perceived differently by the flight students or whatever, compared to what you might have seen in other flight schools where a man stands there as the flight instructor? Does that make a difference?
There have always been advantages. When I was a young, good-looking woman, people were always ready to help me, then I had a bit of a rough patch in between where I wasn't young anymore but not old yet, and it was difficult getting help then, but now that I'm old, they always say, "the old Dani is helping me," so everything has its advantages. But we don't make any difference during the course based on whether it's a man or a woman, so I don't think paragliding is something where women should get a discount; it's an equal sport for both, and in fact, women might even be better off emotionally. I don't see any difference now; I usually just give it gas, and I haven't had a student yet who had a problem with my authority because I'm a woman, because I always say, if he doesn't follow instructions, he's the one who gets hurt, not me.
That's quite simple, and of course, the younger generation is coming up now, like you met Nina, but otherwise, I mainly have tandem pilots and flight instructors. In our industry here in Austria, women are still a bit rarer than in Germany.
Do you see, over the years, a change in the way students behave, or has it shifted a bit? Like, how they approach things or help each other out? Was there maybe a period where you'd say it was mainly individualists, and now there are more people who say, "Oh, we want to do Hike and Fly and fly together as a group," and that we understand each other a bit differently as pilots?
Well, at the beginning, the flight school was smaller, it was more like a club. Then, I'd say around 2017 or 18, 19, there were some people of a certain age who were very self-centered. Like, I go flying, and if I'm not allowed to fly anymore because I'm somehow not respecting no-fly zones, then of course they might have just said, "Yeah, if you're not flying anymore, go fly somewhere else, we're moving your glider out of the way, I want to take off now." Now, a new generation has come along over the last few years that looks out for each other more, shows more consideration, and also uses their brains a bit—that maybe the young people will also want to use the flight area someday and not just think of themselves. Like, I might not be flying in a few years either, but the terrain and the area should be preserved for the next generation of pilots, and the possibility of hiking up the mountain and just flying down somewhere, which I think isn't that easy in Germany, the hike and fly.
No, there are only designated launch sites from the council. And if we
if we don't pay attention, we'll eventually run into the problem of landowners or authorized persons saying, "no paragliders here." But that's not just because of the paragliders; it's because of all the users of the forest, because there are more and more of us. But the forest stays the same size. So there are more mountain bikers, more ski tourers, more paragliders. It's not getting any easier for the animals or for the forest, and if everyone doesn't take a little consideration for one another, it won't work for long. Everyone needs to keep an eye on what the others need. Because a paraglider should maybe take an interest in what a hunter needs. What it means when we fly at Oettlberg and the animals come down for feeding an hour late.
Or in the winter, the animals have to get up because someone wants to fly a paraglider over them to take photos. Or even our no-fly zone isn't an official one, but because of the hunting and the animals that are in it, I just have to be a bit considerate in terms of distance during the important time in autumn, when it doesn't really matter anyway, and maybe give up ten minutes of flying. And then the whole thing would work.
You just said you have the impression that the new generation is generally a bit more considerate with it. Why is that?
I think it's also because of the flight school and especially the young people, who are more helpful again. And maybe also that someone with a bit more experience keeps a bit more of an eye on someone with fewer flights. So we also try to teach them that if someone is out there from the training, I say, it's fine, I'll go with them. And they keep an eye out a bit so that you get that understanding again that you're not alone up there, but that you're a community. I always say, make sure he gets out okay. Because if he's hanging in a tree, it takes much longer to get him out than if you help him with the launch. That's coming back now and it's getting better again. And I think in Hinterstadt, it's anyway like that, everyone keeps an eye on each other a bit.
Alright, Dani. Thanks for the chat and for sharing your story.
Yes, we might be a bit of a different kind of flight school and we don't have that drive for cross-country training. So the focus isn't really there. I always say, that develops on its own anyway—which direction he goes. And that works quite well too. The important thing is that you have fun, you're safe out there, you keep your eyes open, and maybe you also tell another pilot, "Hey, what you're doing there isn't so good." And it's important that people help each other out a bit again. Because paragliding was always, or maybe it is, a sport you can do alone. And hang gliding was always a team sport. As a hang glider, you're rarely alone somewhere on the mountain and rarely retrieving the wing alone. And that comes a bit from hang gliding. It's nice if paragliders don't just always run around somewhere completely alone.
That would be a part where you could say that as a paraglider, you can really learn something from the kite flyers.
You can always learn something from the hang gliders.
We already talked about this earlier, what one might be able to learn from flying, or something else. But that would be something where you'd say, from an attitude perspective, it's definitely something where paragliders might, by paying more attention to each other and doing hook-in tests together and all that, where one might as a paraglider really also pay more attention to each other
pay more attention to each other and stick together. And
especially also
the calm. Because as I said, the kite has very many small individual parts and you always set it up the same way. You do that the same way for over ten years. So the danger of forgetting something isn't really there. But with paragliding, there are very few things. But you should also always do that the same way and take a bit of time at the launch site to make sure everything fits and also hold it together a bit. And then we're back towards the kite. The community, if someone is missing, is also common with us when people are in the air. I know, actually everyone is there, but he also needs to fly. That if you, for example, don't land at the landing field, that you check in somewhere and say, yeah, I landed off-site, I'm going for a beer now. And not that you just drive home and say, well, he'll be somewhere. And that should come back a bit.
May your spirit from your flight school continue to spread even further. Because I think that is a very, very beautiful approach. Thank you. You're very welcome.
That was the 87th episode of Podz-Glidz with Daniela Altmann. If you want to learn more about the flight opportunities in Hinterstoder and Dani's flight school, you can find some further links in the show notes for this episode. The show notes are posted as usual on my paraglider blog Lu-Glidz. The address is www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. Lu-Glidz is spelled L -U minus G -L -I -D -Z.
Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz don't just fall from the sky, by the way. I put a lot of time, heart, and work into making them happen. Professional research, editing, recording, cutting, hosting, and much more all need to be financed somehow. I would be very happy if you would make a contribution as a supporter. You can find out how it works very easily on the Lu-Glidz blog website, specifically on the "Support" page.
My name is Lucian Haas. The next podcast episode is already in the works. See you soon. Ciao.