At some point towards the end, when the second knight didn't open, I knew, okay, this is getting serious and something has to happen now. I started getting a bit nervous and in that time I thought of my mother at the launch site even faster. I thought, it wouldn't be good or it would be bad if she had to watch me hit the ground like that. And I really gathered my thoughts, and then it happened.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Kevin Philipp, and I'm Lucian Haas.
Anyone searching for the most-watched video of the 2022 paragliding season will inevitably land on a short clip of Kevin Philipp. The 34-year-old Swiss pilot was practicing agro-flying in Organia, Spain. During a Twisty Misty, which is actually a standard maneuver for Kevin, he got tangled and fell into the lines of his glider. It twisted into an unflyable bundle within moments. Kevin fell from the sky like a stone.
He pulled his reserve parachute, but it didn't open. He pulled a second one, which also got caught in the lines inside the container. Only at the very last second did he manage to tear open the reserve package by hand. The emergency parachute managed to brake his free fall just seconds before impact. Kevin was unharmed.
The impressive video of the crash didn't just go viral on social media, it even made it into various TV news reports on every continent in the world. What didn't get any mention there, however, is what happened just a few weeks later. Having just escaped death, Kevin won the Swiss Championship.
All of this is put into a different light when you also hear the backstory. In 2017, Kevin had a paraglider accident that left him a paraplegic with a shattered lumbar vertebra. For weeks, he had no feeling in either of his legs and feared he would spend his life in a wheelchair with a spinal cord injury. But with a lot of outside help and an iron will, he slowly fought his way back. Four years later, he was able to run properly for the first time. Understandably, the Agro title is more than just the crowning achievement of a passion for flying for him. Kevin talks about all of this and more in this 91st episode of Podz-Glidz.
If you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting my work as a patron. You can find out how to do that easily and without any obligation on the website of my blog Flugleits, specifically on the "Fördern" page.
Kevin, who is Hagen Schwarze and what does he mean to you?
Hagen Schwarze is my physiotherapist, whom I had for over half a year. In my view, he was a very good physiotherapist because he was always able to motivate me and was always up for a few jokes. And yeah, in that sense, he was a very important person for me and in my story during my rehabilitation.
Why did you get a physiotherapist?
In 2017, I had a serious paraglider accident where I got caught in the thermals near the slope in Gerlitzen and then fell out of the thermals and slammed into the slope, relatively abruptly, but actually downwards, and broke my second lumbar vertebra. A fragment of it then pressed against my spinal canal. Because of that, I was immediately paralyzed from the waist down; right after the impact, I couldn't move anything anymore and was then transported directly to the hospital in Klagenfurt by helicopter and underwent emergency surgery.
You just said, okay, it pressed on the spinal canal. What were the consequences of that for you? For
At the beginning, I had, let me put it this way, for about four or five weeks, I actually had very little—how can I put this best—yeah, I couldn't really move my legs at all at first. I could only very conditionally feel my legs or perceive their position. That was the result of it and, yeah, I then had to fight for six months to be able to walk again.
What was the initial prognosis you got from the doctors like? They saw you and said, okay, the guy might still have some feeling in his legs. Were they able to give you any hope that you could walk again eventually? Or was it more like, "Kid, we're sorry, there's probably no chance"?
Yeah, they were always very, very cautious with their statements. So, luckily, the first doctor who briefed my mother a bit didn't tell me, but he said my chances are pretty slim due to the severity of the high-impact phase, the fracture, and the lesion. That's why, yeah, she didn't tell me either. And most of the doctors afterwards were just—you can just tell by the tone they use when they speak. But how should I put it, no one really took away my hope. But no one said either that you have good or bad chances. It was always like, we just don't know.
Did you know that for yourself? Like, were you convinced from the start that you'd be able to walk again? Or were there phases? Phases where you were really down and said, shit, I'll probably just end up in a wheelchair.
Yeah, at the beginning I was pretty optimistic, but that eased off a bit over time because I noticed I wasn't making as much progress as I should have. I heard and saw other stories and kept asking around, and I realized it was pretty unrealistic for me to be able to walk completely normally again at a certain point. And at the start, that was actually okay, but over time I knew that things had to start moving forward. And because of the extreme pain, the doctors decided to do an emergency operation. So, a second surgery where they reconstructed everything and reset all the metal or the previous surgery, replaced one vertebra, and removed the second disc.
After that, I didn't have any more discs between L1 and L3. Because of that, the pain improved a bit and I was also able to make better progress. The doctors don't really say whether that was the reason, though. But yeah, it happened right around the time of my recovery, or my healing process.
You're saying you didn't actually experience any progress.
Yeah, I didn't really see much progress at the beginning. So, during a very important time, in the first two or three months, I was getting more and more pain. And really very little was happening. And my friends kept asking, hey, can you do this yet or is it working? Because of that, yeah, I became more and more realistic. And I also really informed myself about it during that time and knew the chances weren't actually that good. And yeah, that was already a mental low point.
How did you pull yourself out of that low point? I mean, how did you manage to keep finding new motivation?
Well, I'd say I was also stupid enough to believe or hope that it was possible. I developed a certain kind of purposeful optimism and just blocked everything else out, and I was actually quite stubborn about what I believed or what I wanted to hear from the doctors or the physiotherapists. And of course, there was also the motivation from family and friends who kept pushing and motivating me, as well as my physiotherapist, who interacted with me extremely well on a personal level.
Where you say you went through that low point, but you kept at it anyway. When did that first tiny spark of hope come, or when did you say that something was actually happening for the first time? What was it, and how did it feel? What did you feel in that moment?
Yeah, that was actually after about three months, when I could take those first steps again. I mean, I could move my legs weakly, but I didn't believe for a long time that I could stand on them. And then one day my physiotherapist said, I think you have enough strength to just hold your weight on your legs. And I was more pessimistic and thought, yeah, maybe just try it tomorrow. I don't feel ready yet. So he said, okay, let's do it and try. And then it actually worked. And I was extremely relieved and also surprised that it worked now, because over three months, not much happens. And somehow, you don't really notice much improvement from day to day. But overall, of course, something had changed.
And that year was, of course, a huge motivation and very valuable.
I saw a video of yours today where you describe a bit of how the story went. It's on Instagram. You also describe it yourself in the comments, saying that during that time you imagined a lot of what you were doing with your feet, even though it wasn't actually happening. So you were dancing and listening to music and dancing in your mind, but down below, nothing was moving. Do you think something like that helps to activate the nerves somehow? Was that also something your physio might have said, like, "do as much as you can in your head"? Maybe at some point the physio says, "now I want to do it too."
Yes, absolutely. It was also something I was told from the very beginning. The first physiotherapist in Austria told me, hey, try to move everything. Try to activate every muscle. In the beginning, really nothing happened. But with certain muscles, you felt something, some feedback, something. And with others, nothing at all. So you'd think you were doing something wrong. And there was just no response at all. No feedback. But yeah, I'd lie in bed for an hour or two every day through the pain to relieve my back a bit. And during that time, I'd always listen to good music with big headphones and really try to activate every single muscle.
And I also tried to dance or tried to do it playfully. And I think, yeah, that was also a very important thermal. In the healing or during the healing process.
You just said that after three months, there were the first little things where you felt something. Where you said, I felt something. I could stand up again for the first time and stuff like that. How long did it take after that until you could really say, I could take the first steps, and I could eventually walk without crutches, and I could eventually maybe even walk normally or hop in place or something?
Yeah, that went on for about another few months. Until I could actually walk a little bit, though it was still very shaky. I was still using crutches, just for safety in case I fell. Because I had my second surgery after three months, I was still relatively fragile. Yeah, it started at the beginning. So after six months, I walked about a kilometer and then that was it. But yeah, the process went very slowly and gradually. And very little. A lot of pain in the first three to six months. But fortunately, it kept improving. It was very shaky at the beginning, too. One of my calves wasn't really involved in the walking yet.
And I had to wear a brace that helps me not drag my foot afterwards. Yeah, those were certain aids I still had at the beginning.
The pain, did you always only have it in your back, or was it basically the whole system down into your legs, where you said it hurt everywhere? Or did I feel pain?
Yeah, the pain was actually mostly in the buttocks or also in the left leg. They were nerve pains coming from the accident site or from the lesion. But they showed up more in the legs. And that was also a problem at the beginning. You didn't know exactly where the pain was coming from, which nerve. So they used a local anesthetic, like an injection between the individual vertebrae, and tried to numb the nerves to find out where something went wrong or which nerve was sending a false signal. And they just couldn't figure it out. It was a pretty long and painful process.
And after that, they decided to reconstruct everything again.
Are you pain-free today, or are there still things left over where you say, hey, this accident is still hanging over me, and I might have to carry some pain from it for the rest of my life?
Unfortunately, with injuries like this—with spinal cord injuries, I think—you always have pain, or I think I'll have pain for the rest of my life. It's not like they're mega bad or hinder me daily or in my everyday life. But there are many movements that I notice. For example, if I sleep on my stomach or lie on my stomach for a long time, I have back pain afterwards; if I swim on my chest, that's normal. Then it's also not really, how should I put it, it's not really cool for my back in the long run. But they're minor things and I can deal with them very well and live my life without these things, so to speak.
Because of that, I'm incredibly happy, because I know what it means to be in a wheelchair. I don't really have any deficits or a handicap anymore.
This accident happened on your birthday in 2017.
Was that something for you where, in terms of your thinking, you were like, what a shitty gift? I really didn't want that on my birthday. Or did you think it was like a punishment from someone or something like that?
No, not at all. It was just a bit weird mentally because it was my birthday. But it just turned out badly, and how should I put it, I don't really believe in fate or anything like that. It's just a stupid coincidence.
During your rehabilitation phase, at what point did paragliding come back into the picture?
About two years after the accident, I slowly started thinking about it again and went back to the launch site a bit. Then, by the end of the year, I slowly dared to get into the air and did my first cross-country flights in very smooth evening conditions, slowly trying to gain some confidence. I was also aware at that moment that my back still hadn't healed as it should, and because of that, I was still a bit limited.
But even before that, when you weren't flying and were making slow progress, were you clear that you definitely wanted to fly again? Or were there also thoughts where you sometimes said, hey, basically paragliding is what got me into what I'm going through right now? I don't actually want this sport anymore.
Yeah, that was an extremely mental question right after the accident. But I was actually happy that the sport gave me so much. I got to experience so much with friends in Brazil, in Colombia, all over the world. Extremely good friendships were formed that I wouldn't give up for anything. And because of that, I wasn't angry at the sport or at anything. I think that was a very important point in my rehab—that I could look forward mentally right away. And not have to look for excuses all the time. I knew it was my mistake. I knew that this was how it was now.
And I was able to come to terms with it pretty quickly. Yeah, at first, going back to flying after two or three years was a bit of a uneasy feeling. But how should I put it, you get used to it again quickly. And the longing for the sport, for the feeling of being able to fly again, and also to be able to do what I never dreamed of doing again. Someone once told me, "Hey, you can fly in a wheelchair now, that's pretty cool and all." But I imagined it like this: flying not just the way I could then. That was already such a great feeling. And again, not just flying, but also, how should I put it,
to be able to climb the mountain alone and do it individually again. Yes, to fully experience flying again.
This year, that was just, I think, two weeks ago, you won the Swiss Championship in agro flying. Was that a long-held goal, where you always thought that once I'm flying again, I want to start with agro again at some point and really perform again?
I didn't think it would actually be possible to fly Agro again after the accident. So maybe at the very beginning, when I was still dreaming or being unrealistic, let's say. But over time, it became pretty clear to me that my back probably wouldn't be able to handle those G-forces anymore. And also that I probably wouldn't dare, and I had major concerns about whether I could ever return to the sport. And yeah, being able to win the Swiss medal now, the gold medal at the Swiss Championship, was an extremely beautiful feeling, because it was just like, two weeks before this event in 2017
broke my back, and that was already a very big goal for me. And now getting this medal, it means the world to me.
That means in 2017, before your accident, you were basically training at Lake Ossiach. Okay, it didn't happen during agro flying, but the accident happened at Lake Ossiach. And you wanted to start there, you basically wanted to become Swiss champion. You couldn't compete then because you had that accident. And now, five years later, you've really arrived where you wanted to be back then.
Yeah exactly, that was a huge goal for me. And how should I put it, at one point I was far from it. I think the competition was stronger. This year I really trained an extreme amount and was able to fly at a pretty high level and could set myself apart from the competition a bit, let's say. Even though I didn't make all the landings as perfectly as I wanted, I still managed to get the title.
Do you still feel any limitations because of it? I mean, with agro flying, do you think someone who doesn't have an injury like mine simply has a certain advantage?
I wouldn't say so. I mean, there are very few moments where I might notice something, but that's really just a fleeting moment, and it's not like I have long-term back pain or any kind of limitations, actually not at all. And I was really mega surprised because at the beginning, when I went down the mountain, I had severe pain afterwards, or I noticed it extremely. And those aren't actually very high forces, but when I flew agro for two or three hours straight, my back actually handled it perfectly.
If I understood that correctly, you no longer have a disc between L1 and L3. That means the lumbar vertebrae have probably fused together there as well.
Exactly, so that was a new surgical method. They removed the upper and lower discs as well as all the fragments and then put in a plastic replacement. You can screw that on, and it expands to the desired size. Then you take those fragments, as well as part of a rib—because you had to go in from the front too—you cut out a piece of the rib and then basically grind or crush all of that into a paste, and then it's spread around this plastic or this vertebral replacement. And within, yeah, let's say one to two years, it actually hardens or grows all around and basically closes up.
And the advantage of this surgery is that there's an organic bridge that can constantly heal itself, unlike metal, which just breaks over time.
Do you have any movement restrictions? For example, in my lower lumbar spine, if you shift your weight or something, do you notice that I'm a bit stiffer than I used to be?
Yeah, sure, my movement is a bit restricted in that part of my back, so I'm just stiff there. People always say how straight I sit and how straight I stand, so everyone is pretty envious. Yeah, it's a bit of a nuisance at certain moments, but it's not a big problem right now.
What fascinates you so much about agro flying?
That's hard to say, I mean, it's just that constant process with yourself, and I keep saying, you have to—there are always new tricks, there are always new things to work on, and you're never really finished. I started around 2000, what was it, 2014, and since then I've just kind of caught the bug and have an extreme amount of fun with it. It's not just the flying in and of itself, it's also the community, the people are extremely warm and cool. Yeah, the sport brings a lot with it, and doing these flights, like performing those tricks at sunset and playing with your friends, I'll say, in the air, that's just something very beautiful.
And for me, that just means living in the moment and enjoying it. In aerobatics, the moment is very present.
I mean, aerobatics, especially if you want to be among the world's best like you do and fly at a really high level, is primarily about enormous dedication, yeah, also in terms of time. You basically have to train constantly. A glider pilot can still deliver great performances with just a few flights a year, but an aerobatic pilot, if he wants to fly at least at a high level to keep up up there, basically has to stay at it every day to constantly awaken and recall that muscle memory and all that. It's such an enormous amount of effort you put in; is that a lifestyle you enjoy?
Well, it depends on what you want. But in my case, I love the sport and I love seeking out new things, finding out where the possibilities are, and pushing the limits a bit. And the sport offers me that very well. With cross-country flying, I tend to find it more dangerous because you're always closer to the ground. If you push it there, you usually end up just barely making it over a pass or through a gap. From that perspective, I really do feel safe with agro-flying. And yeah, I have a lot of fun with it.
Speaking of safe, since you mentioned feeling safe with agro-flying—now there's a second huge story you survived, you could say. After the crash in 2017, you had a kind of near-death experience this year. You were training in Organia, you basically fell into your glider and almost hit the ground, and only at the last moment managed to get a rescuer to open a canopy over you. Tell us the story, how did you experience it from your perspective?
That was, I'd say, a normal training day. My mother was just visiting and she'd never seen me do agro-flying before. She'd seen me land a few times in the garden with the cross-glider. But yeah, I wanted my nieces to see it live. And that was from France. Yeah, we traveled for a few days. And we all went up to the launch site together and were super relaxed. We'd done two or three flights, or two or three runs. It was actually going quite well. Not everything had worked out as I wanted before. But that's just how it is, depending on the day. And yeah, I wanted to perform a Twisty Misty.
So, pretty much at the beginning of the run. I was still relatively high. It's a maneuver I don't usually do. I usually do it much lower down and do a lot of them, feeling very safe. And then somehow my left hand got caught a bit. I wanted to release it quickly to pull again. And I was so startled when the glider suddenly shot forward like that. And at the same time, it twisted me. I actually wanted to twist myself to the other side. Yeah, it shot out in front of me and I was sure it would just give a front collapse right there in front of me. But then it was also pushed towards me a bit by the thermals or the turbulence. Yeah, then it happened pretty fast and I was in the glider. Yeah, really stupid, being in the glider.
In acro, there are times when my glider flies. I've never actually touched my glider otherwise. Sometimes you might touch a line or something. And all the other people I know who went into the glider actually always fell out again. Or it usually doesn't happen. Usually, you're back in control after a few seconds. In my case, it was just so stupid that it only went down and the whole glider actually wrapped around me, or wrapped over me like a snake. And then I just kept going faster and faster toward the ground.
When you're falling like that, what goes through your head?
I knew I was still high. And I knew I had time. Normally, with the altitude, if you have some kind of mishap, you can solve it without any problems. Because I fell so fast and wasn't really aware of it from the start, I was actually mostly just relatively relaxed, let's say. Appropriate for the situation.
Well, how should I put it, not exactly appropriate for the situation, but even for me it was surprising, especially in hindsight, how relaxed I was about this situation for such a long time. Because I don't think I was really aware of what kind of situation I was in. Because normally, it goes relatively smoothly—you throw a rescuer, bam, they're open, and everything is okay.
You even threw two rescuers in a row. Why didn't they actually open?
With the first rescuer, it was like as soon as I threw it, the line from the glider and the handle were somehow together, and then the lines from the rescuer couldn't get far enough away from the container. The
didn't they stretch like that?
Exactly, that was actually the problem—the container couldn't get far enough away from me. And pretty quickly after that, the line with the handle—the lines from the rescuer—got tangled with the container as well. Everything happened at once. I had completely normal elasticity in there, and that's why I had the loops about two or three fingers wide, just like you're supposed to learn. And yeah, I was very surprised that it didn't actually open. And then with the second one, there were even more lines lying over it. When I pulled it out, there were already about four or five lines wrapped around the top. And it became pretty clear pretty quickly—it's not going anywhere or something like that.
And then I noticed it. So, in my first impulse when I threw it, I wasn't aware of it. But I realized it pretty quickly because it was somehow still in my field of vision. I looked over, pulled it back towards me, and then gave it one tug and realized that I actually had the handle and the container in my hand. That didn't help me much, so I gathered my thoughts again and then took the rescuer's lines and the container and was able to open it like that. So the first impulse was also the wrong one.
But you perceived all of that while falling and were thinking about what to do in the moment. What do I have to do now? What else can I do? Even though it all happened in just a few seconds.
Yes, well, as an acro pilot, you have a certain protocol that you learn or acquire, let's say. You know the first rescuer, then the second. You know how you actually have to act in similar situations. And because of that, I was actually pretty relaxed, because I also knew that it works 100 percent up until now. On pretty every occasion where I had to throw a rescuer, in the seven or eight times in my acro career, it was every time that the first rescuer actually worked, I landed smoothly on the ground. Now, in one case, I managed to get a small fracture in my leg, but that wasn't actually anything really serious and healed relatively quickly.
But that was more because I acted a bit stupidly or incorrectly at that moment. But otherwise, if you know a bit of what you have to do, it actually works very well. Eventually, towards the end, when the second rescuer didn't work, I knew, okay, this is the limit now and something has to happen.
And yeah, I got a bit nervous and even in that moment I quickly thought of my mother at the launch site and thought that it wouldn't be good, or it would be bad, if she had to watch me slam into the ground like that. And I really gathered my thoughts, and then it happened.
What was that experience of time like during the fall? Some people describe how, just before accidents like that, something like time dilation occurs. You experience everything that actually happens in fractions of a second as if you had plenty of time. You react lightning-fast, but you still experience it as if time were stretched out. Was that the case for you too?
Yes, it was absolutely like that. You go through an extreme amount of thought processes in a relatively short amount of time in a situation like that. And also, certain things that happened in the last two, three seconds before the rescuer opened up—those felt like half an eternity to me. And seeing it on the video afterwards and seeing how fast it all went was quite astonishing.
Well, fortunately, the rescuer opened up perfectly. And how gently did you end up landing on the ground in the end?
Actually, relatively gently. Well, it's hard to say. I just turned a bit and headed toward the back protector because there are a few small trees there. And I was a bit nervous because of my back injury. But it went really well and without any pain or anything, no injuries.
What do you think, or what were you thinking, in that first moment when you're on the ground and realize, I'm completely fine. Everything turned out okay. So, what goes through your head in moments like that?
The first thing was, I didn't know. I really thought, yeah, I thought from the very beginning, this has to go well. And I was still pretty relaxed. I mean, I was actually waiting until I almost flipped out or something. And I was still relatively relaxed at that point. Sure, after the rescuer, all the pressure dropped off or something. I knew I was coming down with the parachute now. And then, when I was on the ground, everything was actually very relaxed. That might be an exaggeration, but it was calmer than I thought. My colleagues came really fast and wanted to help me, helped me pack everything up. And they had much higher adrenaline levels.
They were all almost horrified, I'd say. Because from the outside, experiencing it from the launch site, it's actually almost worse than for you from the inside. It went on for a while. And then I became aware of what was actually happening. And after that, it was different mentally, or something. But right at the beginning, you just think, yeah, it went well, everything's okay. I also had to downplay it a bit for my mother right then and say, yeah, it wasn't that bad and it never actually happens. I think that helped me too.
What did your mother actually say first?
I think pretty much first, she was like, stop flying or something. She wasn't exactly thrilled, but she quickly put it into perspective. And she's known me since I was born and knows how I practice the sport. So not just with paragliding, but also when I'm on my bike or with something similar, I usually do it right at the limit. And in hindsight, she also said, well, that's just how I am. And she knows that, she accepts it, and I think she loves it too. And she appreciates a certain extent of who I am or who I am as a person.
Did you experience some kind of crash afterwards? Or something where you say you recap it or see those images again? Like, you watched the video or something. You can analyze that very analytically. But were there also phases where you'd go, "Oh shit, that was really close," and your heart would sink all over again in hindsight?
Yeah, there were moments, like in the evening after the beer, when you're a bit alone and gathering your thoughts or something. That's when I realized how close it was and how lucky I was.
But during the situation and also afterwards, there was so much going on, so many people right away at the same time. I was constantly busy for a long time. And when I finally got a bit of peace, that's when I became aware of it, and it's already become second nature.
When did you get back in the air?
I wanted to do it on the same day, but I just ran out of time. I think I went back up three or four days later because the weather was always a bit... yeah, the weather wasn't that great and you could fly. But I also still had to edit the video or do all that other stuff I wanted to do. And yeah, after four or five days, I was back in the air. Definitely nervous and tense, but that was able to settle down relatively quickly. And I actually tried and did the same trick again pretty early on. And yeah, it wasn't really a problem. Then finally.
Did you experience that? Like, you do the trick again, it works, and then it's like, ah, the knot's untied. Now I can fly more freely again. Or is it sometimes something that still accompanies you, and you notice, like, maybe I'm still being held back a bit?
Yeah, to a small extent, yes. Yeah, you become a bit more conservative, I'd say, in choosing what you do or when you do it. You're in sports. In freestyle sports. Or let me just call it action sports. You become very confident over time and then you take on a bit more risk. I mean, you get better and you can handle more risk or do more. But then it's always, how should I put it, that it inevitably happens. And as soon as you have something again, you pull back a bit. Which is also absolutely good. And you stay a bit higher.
Now, when I'm doing the last tricks, I'm already looking a bit more than before. And it was kind of the same after my accident in 2017. At the beginning, I was already very conservative with my route choices when cross-flying. Yeah, it took a very long time until I had my confidence back.
Now you just mentioned that you edited this as a video, so you cut together your accident. Did you then post that on Instagram? Yes, on Instagram. And it really went viral there, blew up. Did you expect that? And how did your life basically, maybe even a little bit, change because of it?
Yeah, I didn't expect it on that scale. I knew the video would definitely get watched a few times. But of course, never on such a wide scale. For me personally, it's obviously good. Because as an athlete, I was able to gain such an extremely large reach. So many people noticed me. And yeah, purely from a marketing or sponsor perspective, it's very interesting or something. And before, there was naturally less going on. So it was important for me too. I have my story with paraplegia, and I've always wanted to share that with people as well.
And I always thought a bit, hey, if I share this with my few thousand followers, nobody's going to notice. But now, with the story of the near-accident, a lot more people have the chance to see it.
Your Instagram account hit the 100,000 follower mark pretty quickly. I think it's at about 112,000 right now. Where was it before that?
I think it was around 6,000, yeah, something like that.
6,000, which means it basically exploded to 90,000 within a few days.
Yeah, exactly, it went extremely viral. People were extremely interested in the story. I got media inquiries from America, from Australia, so from pretty much all over the world. I'm still going to do an interview with CNN Arabia—so the Arabic CNN—in the next few days. And I have several other interviews and media appearances coming up.
How does it feel to be a media star?
It's not really my thing, I don't like being in the spotlight that much. But I know I have to take advantage of the moment a bit to push the message, my account, and all that. Or especially what's important to me, which is the story about my accident. And that people know about it, or can somehow draw a bit of hope from it or something.
Tell me a bit about how the marketing of these kinds of stories actually works. Do you also earn money from them in the media? As a news clip, it's been running in some parts of the world. I saw some Asian stories like that too. And you mentioned the USA, Brazil, Australia, and New Zealand. It was running everywhere on websites and sometimes even on live TV. When they broadcast those videos people post on Instagram, do you get paid directly for that?
Yeah, so in my case, quite a few agencies got in touch pretty early on. Yeah. They're the ones who actually handle licensing for videos like these. And they sent me offers—well, different offers came in. And I chose a good one. Depending on the deal, they give you anywhere between 50-50 to something like 80-20. It depends on the fact that they do part of the work and can keep 20 percent for themselves, while 80 goes to you. Yeah, I had to make a choice. And they basically took over everything regarding sharing these images. And whenever I got an inquiry from TV shows or larger media outlets, I turned to that agency for the licensing.
In the end, it's not a huge amount of money. It's not tens of thousands of francs or euros. But it's already come to a few thousand in total. So
it's a bit lucrative, at least jumping off the tip.
Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's already helped me a lot. And on YouTube, it's still like, with a million views you'd get around 3,500 to 4,000 francs. And that means, now my video has like 300,000 views. I think that corresponds to about 1,000 francs or 1,000 euros. Both are the same.
In terms of content, your video fits the image of faith. Paragliding as an extreme sport that is also somehow extremely dangerous. I mean, there's one person who, just before death, literally jumped off the edge at the last second. Did you ever think about maybe not publishing the video at all?
No, we actually have everyone around me. At that time, I was very involved in the community and always met up with many friends to fly. And they all advised me to actually publish the video. Because people can benefit from it, learn what you maybe shouldn't do, or what you should do. I'm trying to do that too. I actually wanted to edit a video in the next few days where I go into specific details. But that was prevented by technical problems. But yeah, for many pilots, it can of course be helpful to look at or rethink certain aspects.
So, you see the video more as a piece of guidance for the scene in the end?
Yeah, sure, yeah. I mean, you rarely find yourself in a situation like this. But it's always good to deal with the emergency, at least in acro flying. And what you could do and what an option would be. From that perspective, I haven't seen anyone open the rescuer like that yet. And yeah, in an emergency, it might not even be the worst situation. With that...
Case, let's jump back a bit. You said you were actually totally clear. And it sounds like you really, if only at the last moment, maybe felt something like fear.
Yeah, well, at the end—at the beginning, anyway—you think everything's going to be fine. And then there was this point where you actually start to feel fear. But somehow, I didn't have any time to get nervous. Or maybe it was the adrenaline. It hit me later or something, I don't know. But yeah, I basically knew I just had to function. I had to find a way, find a solution. And between throwing and then hanging on the rescuer, there was such a short amount of time. I might have had time to feel afraid then. Or had time to be afraid. But yeah, as soon as I got there, I was very, very relieved. And then it was okay again. I got nervous again for the landing, but that was actually pretty limited.
If you're the type of person who likes doing extreme things, does that basically make you a fearless person?
So no, actually, like everyone else, I have my fears too. And I wouldn't say they're any less than others'. I just know what I'm capable of. And in that case, I overestimated myself a bit, let's just say. But fortunately, it went really well. I also had massive fear during my first SIV training. I was extremely insecure. And then, step by step, you acquire more skills and also more trust in the paraglider.
When was the last time you felt real fear? That
is hard to say. Yeah, there are times, like when you have a girlfriend or something.
That's also a valid way to look at it. Good.
When you almost got slammed there. I think the Swiss Championship was coming up two weeks later. Did you briefly think about it in between, like, hey, maybe I shouldn't compete? Did you have thoughts like that at any point?
Yeah, no. The Swiss Championship is over water, like all competitions. And in that regard, I was actually safe. It was more that I just couldn't train as much because I had a problem with my shoulder before the incident. And after that, I spent about a week at the computer and then went straight into flying and somehow strained some muscles in my back. My back was extremely tense. And yeah, from one thing to another, I just wasn't as well-prepared as I wanted to be. But in the end, it worked out anyway. With
With this gold medal you won, did you go to your physiotherapist, the one I mentioned at the very beginning, Hagen Schwarze, and give him this gold medal? Why?
Yes, because he was a very motivating person and someone who, I believe, did an extremely big job with my rehab and was always very warm and truly a person who meant a lot to me. And my family and the people around me, they know that very well. But the people from the rehab, from the clinic, they aren't always aware of how grateful I am to them, or other patients as well. And I just wanted it as recognition for their work and for all the hours they never gave up on me.
So, the gold medal is for the team then?
Exactly, mainly for him, but also for the team. For everyone who does their job every day and helps so many people get back on their feet. That was, well, the rehab clinic where I was, it's a special one for people with spinal cord injuries or who are tetraplegics or paraplegics. And it was really cool to give that to them. And Hagen Schwarze has been doing this for over 25 years now. And I can say, I think, he really earned it.
Let's jump to the end now and switch topics, or rather continents, to Colombia. You've been there quite a few times and have flown long distances, including some big XC routes, and even set a few Colombian records. How did that happen?
Colombia is my second home now. And because of that—yeah, I spend a lot of time there—I really learned cross-country flying there. In Switzerland, I only flew a bit around the local mountain, but I was able to develop massively there, make many friends, and fall in love with the country and the people. It obviously offers an extreme number of flying days in the winter. Yeah, for me, it's paradise in the winter. And it just happened that I go there year after year; I've been going for many years, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. And that always evolved a bit with friends who also pushed me and pulled me along at the beginning.
And over time, you become very, how should I put it, competitive. You start trying to measure yourself against others and it just snowballed. Now, we're the people who are actually flying at the top or breaking records. We all know each other very well and are on very good friendly terms. It's actually pretty cool to sit together and, let's say, battle it out a bit.
Can you also do paragliding without competing? In agro-flying, for example, you measure yourself a lot, you compare yourself with others—what can he do, what tricks can he do, how well can he do them, and so on. In cross-country flying, you might always be looking at, okay, where did he fly to, where did he get a few more points, how can I push my outermost turning point a bit further, or something like that. Can you also sometimes enjoy it without looking for that competition?
Yeah, absolutely. There are many days where I just tell myself, I'm going to fly around a bit freely and pick out certain points I want to check out. But with all these records, it's not really about the number; it's about these points. Like with the FAI 3 I flew this spring—it was the same this winter—these three points are very difficult to fly, and it's already a huge challenge to fit all of that into one flight. And that's already cool. The journey is actually the goal. It's less about being first or anything like that, and more about simply achieving it for yourself, seeing if it's possible, if it's doable.
And yeah, that's still cool. And yeah, there are many days where I just enjoy myself and don't just stand in the speed bar.
You just said these points are so difficult to fly to. What makes them so difficult? Are they so remote in the middle of nowhere in Colombia that you always have to say, if I fly there, I definitely can't land because there's nothing to land on? Or what is the difficulty?
Well, it depends. On many days, the points are actually right in between each other. The distances are easy to fly, easy to manage. But to fly out the triangle as much as possible, you still have to fly over that stupid ridge, where if you land there, you have a very long way back home. It's not that I think it's extremely dangerous, but they are canyons and such winding places where you don't necessarily want to land somewhere. And in the past, it was, how should I put it, very difficult or actually unimaginable to fly into these regions or these places. You'd think, yeah, I'll never get out of there. And today, people have found some ways over the years where they know it works, where you can.
And yeah, it's nice to see places that you don't usually see when you're flying in that area.
Have you ever actually landed out in the middle of nowhere, like back in a canyon or somewhere else in Colombia, and then had to... somehow fight your way out of there like crazy?
Yeah, that happened a few times. Usually, when you're out with a buddy, you're extra motivated or think, "Yeah, yeah, there's two of us, we'll be fine." And then sometimes you can land like 50 meters off the road, but then you have to walk three kilometers because there's some river there you can't get across. And for me, I was always relatively lucky,
but, I mean, I was always pretty lucky, but it was like, in many situations, yeah, it took three or four hours to the next road. Especially then in Brazil, where I've also been,
That was in 2017 too, and sometimes it took quite a long time, and without trees, without shade, you're standing there for half a day until someone finally shows up or until you come out of the mountains. Or until you're out in the open for a bit.
But would you still do it again?
Yeah, sure. It's always an adventure. You get to know the farmers or something like that. And yeah, it's very warm-hearted when people welcome you. I'd say, in this shell and away from civilization, you can actually have some very, very good experiences in hindsight.
Well, based on the results, you're a very good aerobatic pilot and a very good cross-country pilot. When you compare the two for yourself, what do you take away from each aspect of the sport? I mean, what does aerobatics give you, and what part does cross-country give you?
Cross-country flying is more about peace for me—more, I'm not saying relaxation, but man, how can I best explain it? You get into this meditative phase during cross-country, where, especially like in Brazil, when you're in the air for 10 to 12 hours at times, you're just functioning and don't really think that much anymore. With aerobatics, it's a bit different. You tend to think more, and you just always have these runs, these peaks over and over again, and cross-country is different. So it has both—both have their own amazing facets—and I, I love switching it up a bit.
I couldn't just do agro-flying or only cross-country all year, but yeah, how can I put that into words? With agro-flying, the effort, the dynamics, and also flying together are much more present and give me a lot. And when I'm doing line flying, I'm tendentially alone or with a colleague, and I usually land alone. Yeah, for me that's more of a calm point, where I have time for myself, where I can somehow gather my thoughts when I'm flying for a really long time, and it also has something very meditative for me.
Do you also experience something like a flow state, and can you experience it in both forms, or would you say that in a felt flow, I only get that with cross-country because I'm just relaxed? Agro-flying is just such an exciting thing in the moment; there's no flow there. What is flow as a state of being, anyway?
So for me, it's always very important to fly with music. I really like flying to some kind of rhythm, whether I'm doing Cross or Agro. And yeah, it's always mega important to be well-prepared, to have a certain flow, to feel good, to have good gear—basically, all the parameters have to be right, and only then can you really develop or use your full potential. Because, just like with Cross flying, if you're somehow thirsty after two hours and have nothing to drink or eat, then that's also kind of annoying. And it's the same with Agro; you have to keep an eye on that a bit.
What kind of music do you prefer to listen to while doing that?
It's completely different, depending on the day. I'm very open to everything. I listen to pretty much everything.
Does it ever happen to you where you say, "Hey, the rhythm of this music doesn't match my agro-rhythm for the flight I'm doing right now," because you notice the speed is just different from what I need to pull off here or something?
Not really. But when I want to do certain tricks or certain things, I know that this music or this track helps me a bit or pushes me; I find it good at the moment. And then I start it that way, actually not the other way around. If a piece of music isn't that good, I just don't really listen to it or don't perceive it as much. But there are moments while flying where the rhythm just fits perfectly and somehow, yeah, the peaks and everything are in exactly the right place. And it's really cool when that happens in that moment.
Is agro-flying also like a dance, what you do up in the air?
Yes, it is like a dance, it's definitely a choreography and it has to be something that's in a certain flow, in a certain rhythm. Yes. And that's also nice, or how should I put it, I'm someone who doesn't really have that under control yet. I'm someone who flies more technically and not as beautifully fluid as the world champion, Bicho, or someone like that. But music definitely helps to relax a bit, especially during a competition where you're very tense, and then having a bit of rhythm instead of being nervous and pulling fast. And being hasty.
If you're flying cross-country and you fly agro, would you say you benefit from your agro skills when flying cross-country?
Yeah, so partly for sure. There are moments where I depend on my glider flying the way it's supposed to. If you're in a learning phase or a problem arises, I do believe I've developed the ability to master the glider a bit better than an amateur flies. Or a normal pilot. But it's not like I can just do everything now and don't have to be afraid anymore. I'm just as stressed as anyone else, and sometimes even more than people who actually have much fewer skills.
Why "even more" sometimes? Given everything you've experienced and the stress situations you've probably faced repeatedly even in agro-flying—why do you say you're still stressed sometimes as much as someone who doesn't have your skills?
Yeah, because sometimes they don't even know what they're getting into. I know what it means when you come down there. In agro-flying, we're usually high up, but in cross-country flying, you're sometimes 20, 30 meters full gas over the rocks. That's just involved with a lot of risk. And because of that, I get pretty nervous in those moments. I'm aware of the danger. And sometimes I see people who can barely fly just barreling right over it.
Do you fly more defensively then, because you might have your 2017 accident in the back of your mind and think, hey, that's when I got washed down in the Leaf and the thermals. I'd rather take a wider berth around that rock face up front or whatever.
Yeah, absolutely. So, if I'm mainly near the ground, when I have a bit of altitude, it's actually not such a problem. But if I'm low now, I'm definitely more cautious than I was before the accident. That's very clear. And I saw that too when I wanted to fly along in a small competition in Colombia. The mountains there were very flat and there were many high-voltage lines. And yeah, it wasn't so cool for me because we were being pushed low over those flat mountains. And yeah, after two or three days I said I don't want to take that risk. It's just kind of stupid to fly a competition there. So I pulled away from the competition and just went flying a bit on my own.
Without competition, you can choose your own routes so that you can say, okay, I don't have to get so close to that stupid high-voltage line or whatever.
Exactly. So before, I was sometimes really uncompromising, flying deep over the mountains or something like that. And you'd have a bit, well, always in the terrain, close to the terrain. But nowadays, I make sure that I have a bit more space. Especially when cross-country flying. When it comes to acro flying, I'm a bit safer. The gliders are a bit more stable, they have more pressure on them. That's a bit different.
There are a few other acro pilots who, as part of their development or their lives, let's say, have moved XC flying and competitive XC flying more into the foreground. Paltakats, for example, or Felix Rodríguez, for example, and that sort of thing, who also fly PWC very frequently nowadays and other stuff. Would that be a path you could imagine for yourself? Or do you say, no, this, well, this pushy, close-to-the-rocks or close-to-the-terrain flying, what they do in competition, that's exactly what I don't want to do. That's why that path wouldn't be mine.
Well, it depends on which areas or which competitions. But it's certainly something that appeals to me a lot, flying more comps or cross-country comps in the future. At the moment, it's just that I've put the focus back on Acro and I'm having a lot of fun with it. But I think I want to fly more cross-country again in the future and head in that direction too. The problem right now, also because of Corona, is that all the competitions fill up so quickly. So you have to register somehow in half a day. And if you weren't fast enough and especially if you didn't somehow
knowing four months in advance whether you want or can go there, that's a bit difficult and I'd have to commit to that a bit more. But just spontaneously joining a competition somewhere hasn't really been possible in the last two years.
The Swiss Championship in Agrofliegen, you just won that. That was also your training goal for a long time. What is your next, really the next big goal that you've set for yourself?
That's hard to say. The next big goal.
I've achieved all my goals. I could die today and be totally happy, I'd be really happy. No, just kidding.
Right now, it's difficult. There are still two or three film projects that I'd really do or want to do. For example, a few things that are still on my bucket list or something, that I absolutely want to do. But yeah, I'm not really concrete about that yet. I still have to define my goals exactly at the moment.
That's not ready to be quoted yet. You can't... you don't want to talk about that here yet either.
Yeah, yeah, I have no idea. I already have, I already have really good goals. So how should I put it? I have many goals for the future, but they're just not that concrete or it's not... yeah, I don't know either. But my biggest goal is just really to stay healthy and be able to go paragliding for a long time and not scare my mother so much anymore.
I read... I don't even know where that was. You mentioned your mother quite a bit there, and your father never really came up. And you said, oh, I'm curious to see how my father reacts when I get home, because he wouldn't have been mentioned as the one who's worried or anything. How did he react?
Yeah, at first he was a bit angry or something, because he felt like he had to be ashamed in front of his buddies, since he doesn't really like being in the spotlight or anything. Then everyone addressed him about it. My father, yeah, wasn't that happy about it in hindsight. When I was just talking to him about it, it was cool that one of his buddies just happened to come by and congratulated him on how calm and good I was in the situation. And you could tell he was already proud. But in our family, we don't really make those kinds of remarks or anything. But how should I put it, he certainly didn't have mega joy over it, but a certain pride too, that I handled it properly and am still here today.
Are you proud of it too?
No, I don't know. I think everyone else in my situation basically did the same thing.
I don't know, like, really proud, no, I can't really say. I'm aware that I reacted well at certain points, but I don't think that really sets me apart from the crowd or anything.
Is there anything else you're proud of?
Yeah, of course, that I can walk again. That's something I'm really proud of. Also the aviation successes, like, let's just say, the beautiful flights I was able to do in Colombia, and yeah, a lot of other things too. But I'm mainly going to say the thing about walking.
If you could wish for something in your life or for your flying life, what would it be?
Hard to say. I'm pretty much content as I am. At the moment, it's still about the funding, or how should I put it, in the future it would maybe be better to be able to work more closely with sponsors to actually be able to realize the projects and ideas I still have, or something like that. So, if I have enough time, then of course everything is possible. But how should I say, it's always still a financial question and in the future I'd like to be a bit more financially independent or be able to make things a bit more possible for myself. Because, as we all know, the sport isn't, how should I say, a mainstream sport.
It doesn't look like much, and because of that, our options are a bit limited, especially with acro-flying, because we try to live as cheaply as possible, save as much money as possible, and that sometimes prevents us from realizing the ideas we still have.
But in your life, you've shown that you're a fighter, someone who sticks with it and doesn't let themselves be held back, whether it's learning to run again or pulling the rescue glider just before impact. So Kevin, I think you'll probably succeed in this point too, and eventually, you'll be able to be proud of it again. In any case, I'm happy I had you here on the podcast. Kevin, thanks a lot for your very honest stories.
Thanks a lot for being a guest, and I'd love to do it again.
So let's see what you manage to pull off next, then I'll give you a call again, and I just hope that you don't have to do things like that anymore that scare your mother, or your father of course, and maybe even yourself.
Yeah, it's really something that happens extremely rarely and I have no idea, I don't know anyone who's actually experienced it, so that's where I'm at. It's a good thing that I can move a bit safer in the air in the future.
Yeah, it would also be weird if you experienced the same thing a second time. Yeah,
that doesn't tell anyone anything
here.
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Hi.