What options do we even have left in the paragliding field? I mean, we've found that more cells don't increase performance anymore. We can't increase the span any further. We had developed gliders in all areas, but they were simply too demanding to fly. It really wasn't that much fun anymore, and the performance gain was more or less marginal or imperceptible.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Thorsten Siegel and I am Lucian Haas.
Humpback whales have unusual pectoral fins. They have wave-like protrusions on the leading edge, called tubercles. When swimming, water flows over these humps and breaks into countless vortices. The tubercles channel the water flow over the fins into strip-shaped areas with alternating turbulence. On one hand, this increases lift; on the other, it allows the whale to angle its fins steeply without immediately causing a severe stall. This principle from nature is now being found in paragliders. The Boomerang 12 from Gin Gliders features a wave-shaped leading edge rather than a straight one. The paraglider is intended to provide similar advantages in terms of lift and stall behavior as the humpback whales, thanks to the Wave-Leading Edge.
Gin wants to build them in the future and implement them in all glider models. For Thorsten Siegel, who has been a designer and test pilot for Gin for 10 years, the work has become very exciting again because new possibilities are opening up all at once. In this 94th episode of Podz-Glidz, the 53-year-old doesn't just talk about his enthusiasm for the Wave -Leading Edge. He also talks about his career path and what it's like as a test pilot having to constantly compare your own designs with the competition in competitions. After all, he is very successful. Thorsten has been flying for the German national team since 1999, became European champion in 2014, and has been at number 1 in the world ranking several times.
If you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting my work as a patron. You can find out how to do that easily and without any obligation on the "Support" page of my blog website, Looglides.
Thorsten, simple question: how do you become a paraglider designer?
Hmm, that's not such a simple question. So much in life depends on coincidence and the situations you find yourself in. And for me, a lot of specific things came together, and suddenly I've been a paraglider designer for over 30 years.
What specific things were they for you?
Yes. Yes, primarily during my studies, it was the fact that my brother convinced me to go flying, and then interestingly enough, some really good opportunities arose for me to do my thesis at UP back then, and also regarding competition flying when I worked there as a test pilot. That was actually an entry point that came exactly at the time when I was already writing applications for other companies. I had worked a bit at Daimler Chrysler Aerospace, and right at that moment, the opportunity suddenly arose to do a bit more at UP, and that's how it all started.
So, what did you study? Aerospace engineering or something? Mechanical engineering in Heilbronn and the good old Diplom-Ingenieur, yeah. So, the affinity for flying? For the whole aerodynamic background and stuff, that just came mainly through paragliding, and then you said, then I'll delve deeper into that.
That's right. Yes, you also have fluid mechanics for mechanical engineering, which was quite interesting. I took those courses for two semesters, and the thing is, specializing further in that field is actually relatively easy, especially in the paraglider sector, and that's what I did as well, yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Let's quickly jump through your career as a designer then. You said you started at UP, then you were also at Swing, and now you're at Gin.
Exactly, yes. I was at Swing for five years in between, and then in April, I've already been at Gin for ten years.
Right. So in 2013 you switched to Gin. How does that work? Do you get actively headhunted by another manufacturer like that?
And then someone comes up to you and says, hey Thorsten, I see you're designing some pretty nice gliders for Swing. Don't you want to design for Gin, or how does that work?
Yeah, it's the same in the paraglider field, there aren't that many options, especially now from the big companies. If you think about wanting to switch, and the team is full, it's actually quite difficult to work elsewhere. In that case, it was really like Gin had a greater need... And for me, there was also the whole personal transition. I moved to Canada. My wife and my two children live here now. Is your wife Canadian? She's Canadian, yes.
Ah, okay. So that's how it came about, where they said, let's live in Canada.
Exactly, yeah. And that was the reason I ended my career in Germany. And with Gin, because the company operates very internationally, and many test pilots come over to Korea for testing, it naturally worked better than if you worked for Swing or a company based in the Alps. Because in that case, it's obviously best to be on-site. And yeah, that's basically how it happened, also because there was a demand, because Gin's product range is really very large by now. And they were simply looking for a second developer, and then the combination of being a test pilot and competitive flying was, of course, nearly ideal.
And my, Michi Siegel isn't my brother. People always mix that up. But he worked at Swing—sorry, at Gin. And it was also the case that he brought us together a bit. I've known Gin for 25 years now. Together they, I don't know, also tested the first two-liners in the USA and both had quite a few problems there, and they'd always discuss in the evening over a beer how we could get to Ozone. And yeah, you know each other, of course. And then the situation was simply that it really fit well. And it's been like that for ten years now. Do you love your job?
Yes, definitely. I have to say, it's still something very, very special.
It also came from why I got into it in the first place. My father was of the classic post-war generation, worked a lot, had a clothing business with 60 people, and was there from morning until night. And my brother and I, we started asking ourselves about the meaning of life and said, okay, life isn't very interesting if you're only allowed to work. So, in a way, we ended up falling for aviation, and the opportunities we have—and specifically in my life now, I have to say, they are pretty unique. And I don't really want to miss out on any of it, yeah.
Well, you're working for a South Korean manufacturer now, so a South Korean company that probably has a very specific work ethic as well. How does that fit in with the idea of freedom? Yeah, my father worked so much. Well, I'm working for a South Korean manufacturer who probably also works a lot.
Yeah, I probably work more than my father does now.
It's true, I have to say, the first few years were pretty impressive. Chin was also a bit younger back then and it was really... well, weekends are rather rare when you're flying, and also when you can still change something in the evening to test it the next day. Then it can get very, very late and food gets delivered to the company until you're finished. It's of course very specific when you're working on something you're really passionate about. So it's actually exactly this point, even when we're in Korea, there aren't many other things to do. Of course, you like to go running or go out sometimes, but primarily the project you're working on is the focus, and time actually flies by brutally fast.
It's more like that in the evening you think, oh, I'd like to do this a bit more, and then you just keep going the next day. So it's not like you look at the clock and say, well, I have two hours left to work, but you're more surprised by how late it already is and that you're just continuing the next day.
How often a year do you go to Korea to experience these kinds of intensive work phases?
Yes, our main season, which is also when the flying is very good, is spring and summer. Summer is the rainy season, which is always quite difficult, and winter is like in Europe or even here in Canada, it's relatively cool, and we're usually somewhere else then. So I'm over there about four to five times a year, and just now I was in Korea for two and a half weeks, now I'm back home for three weeks and then I'll fly over again in the autumn, so in November, and we do intensive sessions then. In the winter, it's often the case that we meet in Mexico, Valle de Bravo has been very convenient, and generally we're around in South America a bit, and summer is actually often Europe, Switzerland, or I'm in the USA, Salt Lake City for flying, where we also meet again and there primarily for
...testing and working. But if you're in Canada right now, do you have the weeks off when you say, "I'm in Canada for three weeks," or are you also constantly sitting in front of the computer working on Ireland? Yeah,
that is
Actually, it's more like, when there are all these test sessions—and that's actually the positive part—we're in areas where we do a lot, a lot of flying, and then of course all the office work stays pending, and all the development regarding CAD simulations, then also certifications, and generally all the A&D, that's what piles up and I have plenty to do there.
And then you're sitting there alone in your office and saying, it's like remote work in Canada, the operation is in South Korea, but you have your big screen and are probably always connected online with them and can move everything back and forth quickly.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, nowadays, and especially after Covid, that's pretty much the norm. And because we have a twelve-hour time difference, we're basically operational 24 hours a day. So when it's nice and finished over there, we usually have a quick meeting, then I start, and when I go to bed, I hand it back over to him. And of course, there are very, very many meetings—at least once a week, actually—where we sit down to clear things up and discuss what makes sense next, or where we meet to do testing, and how it all continues from there.
How does that actually work with a collaboration between different designers? Are you always responsible as the lead designer for one specific glider? Or is it really like you say, I split things up? I work with Jin and I work on one for eight hours, and when he wakes up, he continues working on my files just like that.
The projects are somewhat divided in terms of who is leading, but nevertheless, we always cross-check. We look at the design files together or go through the flight steps and say, "Look at this, give me some feedback, I noticed something." Then you take another look. I have to say, the way we do this is extremely good because a lot of things get caught that way. We have enough cross-checks, we still have enough pilots flying. This allows you to simply point out things that stand out, or we have, more or less, an infinite number of parameters interacting and influencing each other.
And it's also the case that some of the experience—the experience you've just gained with a new glider—can partially be transferred, and from that perspective, it would be almost stupid if we didn't use that and actually double-check things with each other, go through them together, and always get the maximum out of it just to move forward efficiently and well.
Speaking of experience, you're quite the old design hand now, Gina is right. What's it like when a young designer comes along? Who would you say actually lacks the experience to build really good gliders today? I mean, how much experience do you really need to be able to build a truly good glider?
I would say that young engineers are certainly more up to speed on the very modern CAD and simulation software options available nowadays, which have also become very, very good.
Nevertheless, we really find that experience, testing, and the whole feeling—the feeling behind it as well—have an extremely large influence, and that goes hand in hand even with production. We have textile materials, and a glider could be perfect in the CAD, for example, but if the wrong materials are used or if you don't know exactly how it works with the stretch of the lines or something like that, you get results that are difficult to interpret. Or you wonder why the glider isn't flying so well. In that case, it's a huge advantage to have this long experience that the gliders haven't gathered, because there are often solutions that are simply done by hand, where you just realize, we can't map this in the CAD at all or the simulation doesn't fit there.
And I think that's relatively difficult for a young engineer, and it requires significantly more experience.
Well, you also mentioned earlier that you work as a test pilot for JIN. So you're constantly out testing the models you build yourself. What proportion of your daily work does this testing make up?
Yes, that's interesting. It used to be a lot. But if I remember the time of UP, you'd build one model more or less and then try for a very, very long time to make it EN-compliant. Nowadays, with our models—and I think it's the same for many manufacturers.
But usually, it's very, very close. I mean, it's actually rare to say a glider doesn't fly at all or has a major primary problem. And I have to give JIN credit there. He always says that if a glider flies well, then it's actually safe too. And that's true. So if a glider is well-balanced and you already have a very good feeling about it, if you like it, it's rare for it to have big surprises during EN maneuvers. And yeah, the number of hours we invest there has become relatively low, I have to say, because the gliders usually fit relatively well right off the bat.
Is that also because the software has become so much better? Like the simulation software? Or is there just so much more experience on your end and generally in the industry after 30 years of paragliding, that you could say the gliders built today don't produce any junk anymore? Instead, everything is actually usable from the start.
Yes, it's a combination of everything. Also, what we've seen is that over the last few years or so, there aren't really any more revolutionary designs. Everything has been developed further at a very high level. And if you think about what problems we had, I mean, starting from nearly five liners in the competition area. We had D-lines with E-bridging in the back, then to three-liners and two-liners, to the rods constructions. Those were already major challenges. And nowadays, in many areas—whether it's the number of lines, the number of cells, the aspect ratio, or something like that—we've settled into a level where it's quite rare for it to go extremely beyond that.
And that's why you can... you can handle that much better nowadays, of course.
Do you build all types of gliders for Gin? Or are you mainly specialized in the competition gliders, the CD, CCC, and whatever else? Just in the normal...
We actually build all types of gliders together. It depends a bit on what you were working on at the time. And sometimes it happens that you say, well, for two or three years we're mostly doing the... the high-performance gliders, like the Oberrang 11 from Leopard. Currently, with the Wave Leading Edge, the thing is that because Gin started that with the university, it's trickling down into the classes again, so he's now working on the next gliders. I'm on the Lohr gliders, where we're also trying to implement that. That's how it usually works out. But generally, we build all types of gliders together. A bit in the power kite area.
And also mini-wings. Yes, actually the complete range. Right up to, yes, partly even supporting the kite development for Gin Kites. So it's a very broad spectrum, yes.
You just mentioned the topic of Wave Leading Edge. Super interesting. I want to come back to that a bit later because I think that's a really exciting development. But before that, one more thing. Testing for you also means that you're a competition pilot. And you've been flying since 1999, I think you were in the German national team or something right from the start. So you've really been at the top level for many, many years. But because you're also always a designer, you've basically always been flying and testing your own constructions in competition. Is competition flying actually just a job for you?
Certainly, yes. Especially back then, when it was still the open class, I think it was much more exhausting. Because we actually used every competition to develop new prototypes. That had its pros and cons. At times, if the gliders weren't working properly, it was relatively hard to focus on the competition. Because we'd more or less work through the night. It was more like a small team doing Paris-Dakar style, tinkering with the glider at night so that it would hopefully fly better the next day.
But you didn't always have a sewing machine with you.
didn't have a sewing machine
Definitely. But only partially. There were certainly all those situations. Those were some adventurous things.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I even had sewing machines with me a few times, for sure. Not at the overseas competitions, but in the old ones, it was already to the point where we were still working on trailing edge tensions or tensions in general, which we would then change on-site. So, a lot was actually done there. Done. When the open class died out, more or less, which was probably very sensible, it got a bit quieter. And now we have the opportunity to enter the competition with an AFC glider, which we do maybe once or twice more to test new models.
And it's a bit more pleasant, I have to say, because you can focus more on the flying. Of course, you might still track your glider in some parts. But those are minor areas. And I think it makes competition flying more fun for me than in the old years, because you can set the focus a bit differently now.
Just to add, RFC stands for Ready for Certification, so gliders that basically already correspond to the planned CCC glider, but for now, they are only flown in competition by competition pilots who belong to the company.
Yes, exactly. Yes,
Yes.
Whether in competition or elsewhere, as a designer, can you completely switch off that designer's instinct—not always, but still sometimes completely switch it off? Or is it still the case for you that you're flying something and think, oh, the trailing edge tension back there, something is still wrong or something like that? So that it comes up in some way during every flight. Or maybe when you're in competition and have a competitor next to you, so you have the glider competition next to you. And then you see them climbing somehow better than yours. And you think, but what did they do again? Or what am I missing? So, do you have those kinds of thoughts constantly while flying too?
Not all the time, but certainly very often. Especially when you have a new glider of your own, you naturally look very closely at it in the beginning. Sometimes you even adjust it slightly to your own preferences. But once that's done, I have to say, I don't really think about my glider that often anymore. That was actually the best time, when I had a Bumerang 11; I had a glider that worked very well, which I then flew for more or less two and a half years straight. That was a great time for me because I just knew exactly how the glider worked and didn't have to think about it at all. Of course, if there are other gliders around, especially like you say, if something goes better or you think, well, something is slightly different, then you naturally become alert and like to fly a bit closer to it.
And looking at that, because as I said before, we've all reached a level where it's very difficult to squeeze more out of the gliders. The performance level has leveled out significantly. The Enzo 3 has been out for, I think, almost four years now. It's going into its fourth year. That was never the case before. And we're also seeing other brands slowly swimming along at basically the same level, so it's interesting to see which concepts are possible and how far one can go. But what we're seeing currently is that all attempts more or less fail a bit, because it might bring a little more performance, but then there are other disadvantages that affect handling or safety, so we certainly have a plateau where it's very exciting to see how everyone is trying to take that next step to move forward.
I still have one question. Even though the entire industry has reached such a high level. If someone else has a glider and you notice it somehow climbs better. To what extent do you actually look deep into such gliders? Like, I'll borrow it, I'll go fly it, I'll basically turn it inside out and see what special internal solutions it has, maybe structurally or in terms of stress distribution, which you as an experienced designer could certainly recognize and see quickly from the outside. So, do you do these kinds of external analyses as well, or is that actually no longer necessary today with modern design software, simulations, and all that?
Yes, usually it's the case that if a glider climbs better, it's the fabric hanging under the glider that makes the difference—at least that's what the pilot says. Looking into his head is always a bit difficult. I have to say, it's relatively rare for us to go and take a closer look at something. Of course, we have reference models from the design side. Competitors, where we compare performance, and as soon as that's adjusted, we have our own reference models. I also think that in that area, it brings relatively little to copy or rip off individual points, because you always have to look at your overall concept. And that's simply significantly different, just with the development software alone, if it's not compatible, how stresses are calculated, and how the transitions are made,
makes sense. It very often makes little sense to say we're implementing something from another manufacturer because we think it's better, because it almost never fits the concept. It's more about considering how to improve your own concept or which specific parameters to work on.
And that's actually more our approach.
How often have you still felt frustrated in competition when you see that a competitor's glider is somehow performing better?
Those were
most of the years of my competition flying.
The grass was always greener on the other side. That sounds
but like, as if you always had the worse gliders
built. Yes, if you look at it, in the first years when I started, Firebird, even LDK had some really interesting gliders. Then Cloud. Then there were also those glorious years of Advance with the Kriegel Maurer, when he more or less dominated everything. No pilot could compete with him at that time. For two or three years, I think that was the most brilliant time of Kriegel's competitive flying, and for all the other pilots, it was relatively frustrating. In the open class, MacPara developed those extremely fast gliders where the Wallitzsch brothers dominated for a year or two with the high speed.
Accordingly, it was like that if you stayed loyal to the company. I think UPI produces really good products at times. But there was, of course, always very heavy competition. And with Swing, we tried for a long time to really catch up. But that was all during this transition phase from the four-liner to the three-liner to the two-liner. That was certainly a very difficult time there, constantly trying to keep pace. With all the new developments, those five years were pretty much a revolution. Even then with the carbon rods, when Osona came out with the BBHPP.
And then, of course, with Jin, with the experience, including the whole Boomerang series, I had my most successful years, where the material really, really fit. And we've... and yeah, for years we've been dueling with Osona and Nifio. They're the ones left in the last time. And more or less now, with a few smaller companies rising again, it's certainly going to get interesting.
You said that, basically, major performance gains are no longer possible. Constructively, paragliders are actually pretty far along. They're also similar from company to company. So, everything is built very similarly and so on. But now, what we already touched on earlier, Jin comes along with a new constructive technique, at least regarding the construction of the leading edge itself. And the whole thing is called Wave-Leading-Edge, and it's a chosen leading edge, meaning they don't lie on a single line, but are set a few cells further forward and then set back again—not in steps, but really conceived as a wave. Just tell me. Just tell me, what is it actually about? Is it just like Advance having the little ears and it looks great?
So Jin has a shaped leading edge, it looks interesting, right? Or what's actually behind it?
Yes, it certainly looks interesting. And I have to say, when I saw it for the first time, I thought, for God's sake, what has he done now?
And they took a really interesting approach because it was exactly about the question of what possibilities we even have left in the paraglider field. So we realized that adding more cells doesn't increase performance. We can't increase the span any further. We had developed gliders in all areas, but they were simply too demanding to fly. It really wasn't that much fun anymore, and the performance gain was more or less marginal or imperceptible. And specifically in very strong or harsh conditions or something like that, it was actually rather negative because you couldn't fly them out at all, and simple gliders then had the advantage again.
So the consideration was, what possibilities are there at all? And that was the thing you really have to let Jin do. He's someone who really likes to think outside the box, outside the norm, and then with the corporate chain. And then the university in Korea, where he is at the university, really found an extremely good partner that specializes exactly in such things. When the first ideas came, what was there, what hadn't been properly tried out in the paraglider sector yet, and where are our problems, and how can we change them or how can we work with parameters that we are currently stuck with in the future to improve things there? It was simply this box that we are currently in,
to break out of, more or less, to try out new things. And at the beginning, I have to say, I was relatively skeptical because it naturally caused a lot of problems, even just mapping it out and building the first prototypes. But then suddenly came the days when you recognize the potential. And I have to say, that was extremely exciting for all of us because it happens relatively rarely. It was... like we had with the two-liner constructions, that was maybe a phase too where people said, wow, that actually works. Three years before that, people thought they could fly everything except the four-liner. And it was really similar for us now with the Wave-Fleeting-Edge,
when the first prototypes definitely showed what kind of possibilities it suddenly offered, there was, of course, extreme enthusiasm.
In the ads and in... in the video about this Wave-Fleeting-Edge development and all that, there's always a large image in the background where you can see a whale, a humpback whale. What does the whale have to do with this Wave-Fleeting-Edge?
Yeah, actually not much, because we fly and the whale swims. But the idea or these whole approaches aren't necessarily new. So if you do a bit of googling, you'll see that there were already application examples years ago in airplanes, fans, and in turbines, in many areas. The idea was to pick that up and see what possibilities it would have currently for a paraglider. And it's just, as we also show in the video and as we found out, it's simply the way the flow now separates on the gliders that gives us completely new possibilities for designing the glider.
Also specifically regarding the profiles and thicknesses, all the way to a one-to-one comparison where we build a glider, one conventional and one with the wave-finned edge, to determine the differences with absolute precision. And it went so far, which was the most interesting part, that the conventional concept didn't actually fly properly at all.
Anyway, back to the whales. Now that I've brought it up, people notice that whales also have these sort of wavy fins on the leading edge, where certain bumps sit on the fins. Did Jin see these fins and say, "I want to try and replicate something like that with the paraglider"? Or how did the Uridee actually get to Jin in the first place?
The Uridee came from the university that specializes in these areas, which tries to copy a lot of things from the animal kingdom. That's a whole field of study. We had two professors. One of them is a pilot. He came along with us and looked at the things and the ideas, specifically in relation to the problem we have and where we want to go. And that was actually the first point of contact, where the idea came from the university to say, okay, this could really be something you could incorporate, if it's possible.
And Jin was really enthusiastic because I think he saw the potential almost intuitively, rather than the problems. Maybe I'm being too German—I see the problems first and then the potential. He really dove right into it, and to the university's surprise, they said, "Wow, he's really getting started right away, implementing our ideas and giving us results we can work with." And then, together, they both applied for a grant that they won, which allowed us to finance all the wind tunnel tests and everything. Because in the end, it was an extremely large project, and it was very, very costly to get all those results out.
To what extent do these wave shapes at the leading edge change the flow on the upper sail? I mean, what happens there?
Yes, that's simply because with higher angles of attack, the flow just detaches later; it travels longer across the sail. And what we've also identified as a huge advantage is that the overall safety behavior of the gliders changes significantly. That means what we have with all the gliders we've built like this is that the forward surge, which used to always be a massive issue, and the dynamics are extremely reduced. So all the gliders we've built so far are just extremely good in terms of pitch stability, even with really large disturbances. Because of this combination of delayed stall behavior plus this safety boost, it's such that we now have completely new constructions in the profile area,
can do in the thickness and in the entire, in the entire layout of the glider.
You mentioned as advantages, on the one hand, a later separation of the glider, better separation behavior. Then you said it shoots forward less if there are any disturbances or something like that. Is there any other advantage that this Wave-Leading-Edge brings directly? That's already quite a lot for
for us. I mean, we are extremely happy with the results, and what I meant was that we can now change many other parameters. So we can work with profiles that simply didn't work before or that certainly wouldn't work with a normal leading edge, and we can use that to change all the other parameters as well. The Wave-Leading-Edge as such wouldn't have this performance gain on its own; it naturally goes hand in hand with the possibilities we have now to change all the other parameters, especially profile design and thickness.
How does that work within the glider itself? Since each wave is distributed over several cells, does each cell basically have its own profile shape? Because some of them stick out a bit further, while others stay back a bit more. So, in these offset cells, for example, is the profile different there too, or is it just a bit shorter? Or is the profile shape the same otherwise? Or is it really differentiated to the point where you can say you can do a lot there, work on new parameters very finely, and give it that final touch?
Yes, exactly. So those are the things we're continuing to work on because the possibilities are, of course, exactly about further optimization. And at the beginning, the big problem was simply saying, okay, how much wave shape do I actually need? What angles do you use? How do you design it? There are actually countless possibilities. And after we basically optimized that and figured it out with a really huge number of prototypes, the very next step was to say, okay, how do we optimize the entire design now? And that's what you already explained—that you can now, of course, go through and say you make every profile different in order to optimally adapt it back to the construction.
You also know that there are many, many innovations planned as next steps, specifically for our application software that we work with or similar things, where we are considering how to develop all of this further. Because for us, this is certainly just the beginning. We've seen it in new concepts and in other gliders that it brings the same advantages everywhere. So now it's going down into the lower classes.
And because of that, it will naturally look like that we have also worked very, very hard on optimizing the software, the processing, and the design of the individual profiles. But those are the next steps.
You said it also goes down into the lower classes. How far down can that go? So, will there be A-gliders with a Wave-Leading-Edge in the future? In
In the very lower classes, we're a bit restricted, simply because of the lower cell count. This makes it more difficult to map the Wave-Leading-Edge in that way. Although we've already had new ideas again. So we've had it in the prototypes down to the B-range just to see how it affects things. And that's why I can also say that it looks very, very positive more or less everywhere. Nevertheless, it's going to be more work there. It's quite interesting that the high-performers are actually easier to map. And in the lower classes, it gets harder. But we have some pretty interesting approaches now.
And I think, with a bit of a delay, that will certainly arrive there in a year or two.
You could also work with only partial cells. For example, I know older gliders from Abko. They only had an extra cell wall in the front third, so they were basically split again at the front. But towards the back, they were then the wider single cells, more or less. And in principle, you could say the same for the A-glider: the cell is too wide for the wave leading edge. But then I just make it smaller at the front, at least, so that I can map that edge accordingly.
can. Exactly, what you have as a mini-rip at the back, you could also do at the front. Jin had the patent on his first Ritchie-Foil with the reinforcements on the top side, I think 15 or 20 years ago. These are, of course, suddenly solutions we once had that are becoming relevant again. And it's exactly about making it possible for us to lay that down well there. It takes a bit more work, and somehow you also want to keep the weight and pack size in mind. Accordingly, it's a nice challenge right now. So I'm really looking forward to the work now, also with the gliders. And also something in the ENC-2-Liner area that we're currently building. It was really exciting to fly that in Korea now.
And yeah, we're laughing a lot right now at Jingleiders because we're having so much fun with the work.
Because things are really moving forward again. You can tell the drive is back. It's exactly the
...thing, the days are getting longer again, the working hours. But it's exactly that point, I have to say, because we really have such a great team. Because now with Tim Bollinger down there and Martin, we have so much fun working together and we're all working on it purposefully. So it really doesn't feel like that. It's definitely more like a group of friends who just get to do something together. It's like Christmas right now.
Then we were talking about experience earlier and the old hands and stuff. But now a new technology comes along with which you don't have much experience yet or something. What does that mean now, when you're sitting at the computer and have to draw something with a Wave Leading Edge? And you have to think of something, but you say, damn, I actually lack my own horizon of experience. As a background, from which I can simply say, yes, this solution works now. Great, right? It
it's simply,
I have to say, for us as designers, or what I like, these are naturally such challenges. Especially when you see what potential it has or what you can do with it. It's like a toolkit that you open up again, which offers you new possibilities and really brings in a very nice variety. Specifically, it's also about further revising the development software to adjust it accordingly so that it becomes easier in the future.
And then, of course, I consult with Jim a lot because he built most of the first prototypes. I have enough experience now over the last two years to say, okay, these designs didn't work that well, and we've now worked out a few formulas with which we can actually map the wave leading edge quite easily. And then we see how to implement it in the glider, depending on the aspect ratio, the number of cells, and the design of the glider.
Where is the biggest structural challenge in this?
Yeah, like you said. It's actually that we sometimes can't assess very well what the end result will look like. That was obviously much easier with conventional designs because you've pretty much tried almost everything already. And you could always say, okay, there's an 80 percent chance this will work out. Of course, there was always still a factor of uncertainty. With the new concepts, it's like we don't know exactly how certain parameters will translate. Or whether they will always have an effect or if they will always have the same influence. So, there are a lot of things we're rethinking or where we have to throw some old habits overboard to find the optimum again.
If you look at the Boomerang 12, which is already flying with the Wave Leading Edge and is also flying in competition and is now available for sale. There, this Wave Leading Edge is only, let's say, on two-thirds of the wing. But the outer wings are still constructed in a very classic way. Why?
Yes, we built and developed all sorts of variations, including across the outer wing. But what we found was that it wasn't actually an advantage for what we wanted. And that it's significantly better if the outer wing is still built conventionally. Especially regarding the stability of the glider. And also the performance and rigging. So that was a point; even with the profiling on the outside, it became a bit more problematic, also because the pressure isn't as high there anymore. I think you can also see in the video that we've reached prototype number 23 now. It was primarily the wind tunnel tests, the attempts,
then build another prototype to see how it works and how it flies. I mean, of course, these are always things where you can analyze and optimize the performance and the stall behavior well in the wind tunnel. But how a glider actually feels in terms of handling, how it moves within itself especially at higher spans, and how it flies in the thermals, that's a completely different, additional point that is, of course, very difficult to simulate.
It was actually a lot of trial and error until they finally reached the concept or the layout as it looks currently.
Regarding scaling down to the lower classes, even with less span and the corresponding adjustment of parameters, it also means that you'll probably need significantly more prototypes there than you did as a standard before.
Most likely, yes. It's already interesting when a concept works and can be scaled down relatively easily. And it's actually something where, after the high number of prototypes we needed for the Boomerang, it will be a bit less for the lower classes, because we now have tools we can rely on. It's no longer a shot in the dark; it's more like saying, okay, with the first prototype, you're already in a range where it flies well and you can gain the initial findings. And you can even develop it further from there. It's not like you say, "we're throwing all of that away again," but rather in a range where you say, okay, you can actually start an evolutionary process right from the first or at least second prototype and improve things.
JIN has patented the Wave Leading Edge. Do you think this technology is so good that it might be adopted by other manufacturers in the future? Or that they'll want to adopt it, saying, okay, we're ready to pay licensing fees because it really makes a difference? Do you really consider the Wave Leading Edge to be something revolutionary in the paraglider industry? I mean, I think that for
...for JIN Kleiders, is certainly a turning point, as well as how we will design gliders in the future. Because by now, and that's the great thing, actually all the test pilots and the whole team are convinced. It's not like we're divided on this; rather, the advantages—especially after the Superfinal in Sentes, where we weren't quite there yet, but where we first realized everything, wow, this is really something big for us. Accordingly, I am convinced that it will be groundbreaking for us, for JIN Kleiders. As we know, there are many ways to achieve goals in the paraglider sector.
Whether it's manufacturers—of course, manufacturers will take different paths or use different options. When we reach the point where we have a lead, I mean, then it will inevitably be the case that other manufacturers might want to join in too, or we'll simply become the leaders, which is also a great thing.
Time will tell.
What I definitely see right now, as I mentioned earlier, is really the good, safety-relevant behavior. Even if you switch from a Boomerang 11 to a 12, it's almost like you're flying a class lower.
Since I'm getting older now, it's also significantly more pleasant for me...
And that was certainly the case for many pilots. I believe success will come if we have the performance, but with significantly simpler flight characteristics and handling, which will also appeal to many more pilots. I also think that we will certainly be bringing something very interesting to the ENC market now...
The Bonanza 3 that's coming out, right?
Exactly, yes.
Or will it get its own name because of Wave Leading Agent?
The sales meeting will decide that, but I'm not thinking... they're just names, naturally, like Boomerang, they're introduced and
They didn't make any distinction there. We'll see how we want to do it, but I hope we stick with Bonanza. It's a nice name.
Well, you've put an enormous amount of research into this. As far as I know, you even received government funding for it—funding from South Korea, who said, okay, you're allowed to do this, you should research it, and then you work with a university in South Korea. Those are actually, in some ways, almost paradise-like conditions for a paraglider manufacturer. Do you believe that without such a background—meaning government funding and this university as a supporter—that other manufacturers could even replicate something like this?
So I believe starting something like this would have been very, very difficult, because all the parameters or the experience values you need, that would have been extremely time-consuming. And also the technical background, especially what we did together with the university, also from the simulations, I mean, that wouldn't have been financially possible if Schinkler had done that alone. What we all know is, if a glider goes into series and exists, I mean, what others can more or less do is copy a glider. I mean, the design itself is there and we do it for a certain reason. So that means the
The basic parameters are currently open. I don't think other manufacturers will do this for now, of course. On one hand, we have the patent, and on the other, it still has to show over the long term how far we get and what else we will achieve with it. I think we're just at the beginning, but I'm extremely confident that this will give Schinkler a bigger advantage over the next few years, and then we'll see how other manufacturers react. But it's also nice to be a bit ahead of the curve for a while, and that's how it looks for us right now.
If I understand correctly, one of the main advantages you're mentioning now with the Boomerang 12 and similar models is actually the improved handling or the simplified flying. The performance—meaning the rated performance the glider provides on its own—isn't necessarily higher than a competing product. But perhaps the flyable performance for the pilot is simply higher.
Exactly, yes. That's how I see it currently. I'm sure we're extremely good at climbing. But we also always know what the pilot is doing, and of course, what's being added in the future and everything else that distorts things a bit are the harness systems. We know that the Submarine has extremely good performance, so a 1-to-1 comparison against the competition is naturally a bit difficult there as well. Nevertheless, I believe that a Boomerang with a Submarine comes out as the best choice.
Should I check with Ozone?
That's one thing. So, I'd almost say after the experiences that our glider might have a very slight edge, but of course not to the point where you'd say you need it to win. That's too minimal. But for us, the definitely biggest progress was this extremely simple flight behavior. The glider also passed through as an END with the 10-centimeter speed bar travel, which is required by the CCC; we had it at the THV. We had it tested in "quotation marks" just for fun, also because the result was, of course, very interesting for our funding, to also show what the system really delivers, i.e., which
changes it really brings compared to the previous models. That is clearly a decisive point for the Boomerang 12. It's exactly as you said, basically the flyable performance that even an average pilot can have with it. I think that's the big advantage, and it was also—you have to say—at the World Cup in South Korea, and that was the first World Cup where there was actually a huge number of Boomerang 12s there at once. Logically, it was a home game, like a Bayern Munich home game. But even there, all the feedback we got from
pilots who fly competitions, but not at an absolutely high level, was also really extremely good. And the confirmation is actually increasingly that the concept is pioneering for us.
Still, in the competition area, top performance is ultimately always still decisive. A top pilot who can also fly a more demanding glider—if he brings a performance advantage, he can still fly it out. You just said yourself that Ozone, with its Submarine, also has a very aerodynamic tool, which can again bring significant advantages to the overall setup. Is something like that, when you see it with Gin, does it mean, hey, we also have to build our own Submarine, but whatever it's called?
The interesting thing about Gin is that after all these years, he never lost his competitive edge. He's really someone who is still active in the competition scene with heart and soul, and I believe the Asian Tour in Mungyong is starting this Saturday, and Gin will be flying a prototype. We're going to do a slightly different concept, and that was again developed over the last three months, also in cooperation with the university. This time, unfortunately, you have to pay for it yourself.
But what is also really interesting, as I already mentioned regarding Gin, is that he has extremely high motivation and sees the potential, and of course knows that Osonda has done very good work, that they've developed something that I believe, in Australia, Robert Bernhard and Bruce Goldsmith first flew around with such a prototype at a World Championship. It was still a bit too warm in there for them, but to take this concept as far as Lück and his team have, you have to say, that's respect; I think they have definitely pushed the boundaries and performance in the harness area, especially in terms of speed.
concerns
And yes, we will, we will certainly follow up, so that's the goal. I think we had the Genie Race 4 quite successfully, but we're currently trailing behind. From what I've seen of what we're developing, it's going to be very special again, and I'm also pretty sure, yes, that it will take a bit longer internally, but that we'll certainly come out with something good in a year or so and will be flying a few prototypes as early as next season.
I'm curious to see how that looks for you, the Gin solution. You just mentioned the Boomerang 12—or in connection with the Boomerang 12—that you're getting older yourself, so it makes sense that you have a glider that's a bit less demanding to fly in competition. How much longer will you be flying in competitions?
My wife always asks me that too.
Well, the point is, on one hand, I'm still having a lot of fun, and as long as we're developing in that area, it's simply necessary to see where we stand with the models. I mean, it was the same. I was in Korea for the first time since Covid back in April, flew with Gin in the Korean League, and it's just nice to see that even he's still flying energetically in the competitions and
yeah, also still really pushed the limits. I mean, that's the beauty of paragliding, really, that you can be active in this field for a relatively long time, and as long as the fun and motivation are still there, I'll definitely keep doing it for a while. I think, of course, the young people we all have in Germany, and luckily there's enough new talent so that the national team won't run out of people at some point, that's okay, and I also have more interest, I have to say now, in flying competitions here in America. The US competitions are simply brilliant, also something new, different landscapes with
really high base altitudes, 5,500, 6,000 meters—those are things that appeal to me again, just to fly some different stuff. But yeah, as long as Gin is still with me, I'm in, and then we'll see. How much? How much older is Gin than you? I think we're separated by nine or ten years.
Well, then you've basically got ten years left, where
you're at least still involved
you have to be.
Since we're at this point, last question now: when you look back on your long career—even though you're still younger than Gin—what do you actually see as your greatest success and what as your greatest failure? It doesn't have to be just competition, but rather where you'd say, what has stuck with you?
Yes, I think the biggest
success
On a purely personal level, for one thing, I haven't really hurt myself, right? I don't think I've ever broken a bone, but that was maybe more luck. The best thing, I have to say, is the friends I've made all over the world and the people I've been able to work with. I think that's something people underestimate a bit, and I think many people don't have that in normal work, but just now in Korea again, so many friends came over and we had such a great time together, and that's already extraordinary. It's truly heartwarming, and I also think the older you get, the more you realize how important something like that is. You can have such a great job, but if you don't work well in a team...
...work well together, and that's also what sticks with you in the end; it's not nearly as much fun. And of course, the financial side is important somewhere, to make ends meet. But yeah, what remains in the end are really all the impressions and the moments you've experienced with people who share the same things, who, luckily, are mostly very liberal in their way of thinking, and very few of us think of people in terms of some kind of boundaries or anything like that. That's why it's all the more unsettling to follow the news nowadays, because I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe or another world, and I have to say, this is actually the happiest thing I've had professionally, I have to say.
Negative, negative, failure.
I don't know, I'm a happy person.
Then let's just leave it at that, because we don't need to list anything negative now. And what you said about basically the high social quality that the paragliding scene actually offers on its own, and also through the flyers who are perhaps in some way particularly freedom-loving people who then want to defend the freedom of others—so mentally liberal in that sense—that was actually a very nice ending from my perspective. We can, we can change it positively. That's something. Yes, Thorsten, thank you for your story. All the best in Canada and continued success with the development of Wave Leading Edge.
And I'm curious to see what all comes out of Jin in the next few years, and when I might eventually be able to fly the first Wave Leading Edge glider myself, and if I'll then say, at my age, this is exactly the glider I need.
We'll make sure you still have a bit more to write. Okay, that's good.
If you want to learn more about Thorsten Siegel and Wave Leading Edge technology, you can find some further links in the show notes for this episode on Lu-Glidz. Lu-Glidz is the Gleitschirm-Blog to which Podz-Glidz belongs as a podcast. I am the producer of both offerings. My name is Lucian Haas. If you are already a supporter of Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz, thank you. If not, then please support me in continuing to serve the paraglider scene. As a freelance journalist, I invest a lot of time into this, and it needs to be financed somehow. Especially since this isn't a hobby project, but part of the work I do for a living. As a supporter of Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz, you don't have to commit to anything. Only this simple rule applies.
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