Then it escalated a bit, and I became like my own sports commentator and just really said, yeah, these are rough conditions, but Tina, she keeps flying, this woman knows no bounds, she has nerves of steel, she keeps flying even when the conditions are rough. And that just worked incredibly well for me.
Lu-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Tina
Hauri and
I'm Lucian Haas.
Before anyone comes along and complains that I've titled this podcast episode Anti-Talent, I want to clarify something. Of course, given Martina Hauri's achievements, this label is intended ironically on one hand, but it also has a background. However, I don't want to give that away beforehand. Martina can tell the nice story about it herself right away.
If you don't know who Martina Hauri is yet, you should take a look at XContest. This year, Martina has won the women's category of the Swiss cross-country flight championship for the second year in a row. She even placed second in the world rankings for women in 2022. These successes are all the more remarkable when you consider something else: the 34-year-old only got her license five years ago, but then took off in an incredibly impressive way. In addition to a whole series of major cross-country flights, she already has several launch site records from Switzerland to Greece in her logbook.
What drives her and how she managed to become so good so quickly—that's what this 96th episode of Podz-Glidz is all about. Martina talks about her career path, among other things, and her addiction to flying, which leads her to accumulate more than 300 hours of airtime per year. She gives insights into how important comprehensive preparation is for her before cross-country flights, and why the unknown still appeals to her. We talk about the resistance she faces as a successful pilot in the still male-dominated paragliding sport, and how she manages to overcome moments of the fear that is certainly present during flight.
If you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting my work as a patron. You can find out how to do that easily and without any obligation on the support page of my blog Lu-Glidz.
Tina, I heard you got a new nickname this autumn. The Drama Queen. Tell me, how did that happen?
Yeah, that was a pretty funny experience. We drove to Greece on a total whim. We actually wanted to go to the Dolomites, but the weather was pretty bad across all of Central Europe. So, within two days, we spontaneously organized a trip to SIPT with friends. I had never been there. We went to different places. Among others, on the fourth or fifth day, we were in this place called Drama. And there was really quite a strong wind that day. Like, at altitude, it was really around thirty knots. And those aren't usually the conditions that suit me very well, that I really enjoy.
But somehow that day, I still... Yeah, I bit the bullet, fought through it, and just kept flying. So our guide said, yeah, I could maybe go 50 kilometers in one direction and then land in a place called Paranesti. During the briefing, I asked quite shyly if I could fly a bit further? And he said, yeah, yeah, but it gets difficult back in the valley at some point because landing options become scarce. Well, I flew all the way to the back of the valley, then managed the jump, basically at the front towards the edge heading toward the sea. I flew further there and yeah, I just kept flying, flying, flying. Or rather, the wind was obviously pushing me enormously as well.
And yeah, I landed afterwards and checked my phone. And there was actually already a message from a friend. Wow, that was a launch site record. And I was really completely surprised. I think it was somehow 128 kilometers. I didn't count on that at all. Yeah, and then I posted it somehow. We basically had a cool flight from Drama. And then it didn't take long before a friend wrote back, you're the Drama Queen. So basically, because it was the launch site record for Drama.
How did the locals, the Greeks, react to a Swiss woman coming over and setting a launch site record on her very first flight from their nice main launch site?
Yeah, so the guy who steals thermals came to pick me up. He told me that already. So first he said, "I'm so proud of you." And then the next moment, yeah, the locals, they probably won't just be happy. Like, they're supposed to upload my flight immediately. They want to take a look at it. They had somehow already heard about it. And yeah, no one had ever flown that far in that direction before. And yeah, I think they were a bit surprised that someone from abroad was coming. Maybe also because it was a woman and she flew that far right away. I saw two locals at dinner one evening.
But they were actually really cool about it. They congratulated me, asked me what the conditions were like and all that. And they said, yeah, they're happy for me. But they're going to try to fly further from that launch site now.
Mhm. Was was special about this flight was that at the end of this valley, you went over that ridge? Exactly. And that the Greeks haven't dared to do that until now?
Well, as far as I've seen in XContest, no one has ever done that—made that jump forward towards the sea. Most of them just flew straight to the end of the valley. Or, with less wind, they just flew a triangle. Yeah, but I think, from what I've seen in XContest or from my memory, no one has ever actually made that jump.
I also checked XContest again and saw that you did a second flight there too. And the second flight isn't quite as far, but I think you turned at the end of that valley. Why?
So, the conditions were much more difficult because the base, if I remember correctly, was lower. And there was also, it's just, the clouds were significantly larger, it was shaded, I really struggled not to get swallowed up right there in the valley. Yeah, so it's just that the others from my group were there in this Paranesti. And then I really thought, instead of just making the jump again and having a huge retrieve, yeah, it's actually cooler if I fly towards the other people, because I already had a bit of a guilty conscience because, yeah, because the guide, of course, wanted to go pick me up for so long the day before.
Because I have to fly again now. And I thought to myself, keep going; it was actually clear from the conditions that I wouldn't get as far as the day before, probably even less far. Yeah, and then I just thought, let's see how far back I can make it. It wasn't quite directly against the wind, but a bit sideways against the wind. And yeah, it was also just, yeah, a bit of a challenge, let's see how far I can make it against the wind and if I'd actually manage to get to Paranesti to the others. Or rather, when I got near this Paranesti, the guide and my girlfriend said, yeah, try to close the triangle, easy. Then you'll have a massive flight.
And by then I was more like, wow, I'm just getting tired now. Yeah, I can't really imagine that it actually would have worked, closing that triangle too. Because the conditions were getting weaker and I'd really have to push hard against the wind. I tried it a little bit, but then there was also a bit of a valley where there weren't many landing options left. And yeah, I thought it was really cool to land in this Paranesti, with the others, that we were all there together.
Do you like flying out into the unknown like that?
Yeah, I think I have an above-average, let's say, an above-average explorer spirit. Like, I always enjoy going out to try new areas. Even in Switzerland. I mean, a lot of people in Switzerland go to certain places, everyone has their bit of a specialty. At some point it's the Bernese Oberland, others the Valais, then others the Bretigau, Van Naas, etc. And I was actually from the very beginning, actually really, I just always thought it was cool to see something new. And a bit... especially when it's always, yeah, really, when I know there are always landing options—which I don't like as much, I struggle with—when I really have the feeling like, wow, the base is deep and, well,
I try to fly over the next ridge, but I have no idea what it looks like back there. Yeah, I'm pretty cautious then. But basically, if I can always see some landing options where you can still somehow get out again, then I really, really love doing it. Just discovering new things. I think that's probably also one of my main motivations for flying. Just this explorer spirit, always seeing new things.
Where does this explorer spirit of yours come from?
Good question.
So, as a child, I went to the mountains with my family very often. I actually thought it was pretty cool. I started... it's probably about ten years ago or so with soaring. But I never took the exam. Of course, compared to paragliding, you can discover much more in a very, very short amount of time there, because the speeds are naturally just much, much higher. And I once heard, just a moment ago, when I was in soaring training, that men fly... their main motivation is always speed control, I don't know what.
And women fly for the view. And for me, I'd say... for me it's just... yeah, for a large part it's really just about the view, the bird's-eye perspective, yeah, about the cool experience. So, everything you get to see while doing it.
Of the flights you're doing today, would you also say that it's not about scoring points at all, but simply about discovering something, about seeing things?
That's still hard to say. So, this season, towards the end of the season, I really felt how much I was looking forward to it when I finally realized, hey, the days where I could still do one more "countable" flight were over, and I found it somehow... Yeah. Yeah, incredibly relieving, or actually, how nice it is to just fly whatever you feel like flying. To be honest, that probably came a bit short during the season, because when it comes to a potential "hammer" day, I naturally want to go as far as possible,
...as far as possible. But I also always look for, maybe on a mediocre day, where I know it's not like a day to fly a 200er or something, for me to just pick something out, yeah, where I can try something new, discover something new and cool. Because mostly, from what I've noticed, the flights where I didn't have these huge ambitions or anything were actually almost the coolest. So, one of my absolute highlights this season was when I flew over the Finsterahorn in Valais with some friends for the first time.
I think that's a dream for every Swiss pilot—that's the Finsterahorn, for those who don't know it, just a single mountain that's actually almost entirely surrounded by glaciers. And you can really only fly out of it or over it if you have an incredibly high base. Yeah, and on that day, it looked good that the base was high enough. I was out with a friend who doesn't have that much experience yet and was using a Low-B. And I promised her, heaven and earth, that I would wait for her, that we'd do it together. And I did. And then, yeah, we went together. We really pushed it up to 4,000 or even higher, as high as it would go, and flew out onto that Finsterahorn.
Then to the Eiger -North Face. Mönch, Jungfrau. And then I almost drowned. But I managed to fight my way back up and then, for the crowning finale of the day, I flew across the Concordia -Plateau. That's a place where different glaciers come together. Truly incredibly spectacular. And I was really the only glider there in the afternoon—I mean, I didn't see a single other glider in the sky. I just flew across there. And in the end, it's probably the flights that stay with you for a very, very long time that matter, not necessarily the ones that gave you the most points.
If you're just now telling me about these flights with such fascination,
Why are you chasing points then? Just to be clear, you won the Swiss XContest women's ranking both this year and last year, and this year you even finished second in the world rankings for women. So you really do a lot of big, wide, long flights. But now, from the way you're describing it, it's actually the others that you find almost more beautiful. What is it about the points hunt that appeals to you?
Yes, that's a very good question that could probably be asked of many people, not just me. Well, I think a big fascination is simply, perhaps like Lex, who spoke in one of your recent podcasts I listened to, just flying until the day ends.
So I find that also incredibly fascinating, because you go through this progression of the day—when you fly for a really long time at first, you start, you take off, and everything is still very weak; you have to fight a bit just to get up sometimes. And then, around eleven or half past eleven, the racing mode kicks in, where you're really only allowed to turn about three meters plus, and you're basically at full throttle as soon as you've just flown out. And then, towards the end of it—so in the late afternoon—suddenly everything gets a bit calmer again, more like that broader, large-scale climbing.
And then the position of the sun suddenly changes, which is completely different. I find that to be a very, very fascinating feeling. And what I only really realized, it was actually during one of the first big triangles I did, is how beautiful it simply is to fly over the launch site again in the evening. Because for me, in a way, you know the launch site, you started there a few hours ago. But for me, it's still like a completely different world. The sun is in a completely different position there. When you flew away, you probably still saw some people who were still down there, getting ready for the launch. And when you come back in the evening and see this empty launch site and everything is so quiet and all.
I find it to be a very, very satisfying or simply a very, very beautiful feeling. And I think that's one reason. And the other is really, when we go back to the explorer spirit, you see more on a long flight than on a short one. Or you see more on a long flight than on a less long one. That's certainly also a motivation.
If you say, okay, the long flights motivate me, then the points practically come automatically. So if you fly for a long time and also fly far, you'll automatically collect a lot of points. What do rankings like that mean to you in the end, when it says, okay, now you're the Swiss XContest champion and in second place worldwide in the XContest?
Yeah, it's a bit of a, how should I put it,
It's a bit of a double-edged sword, I think. I mean, it's not just, let's say, an absolutely fair ranking or anything. Especially with XT flying, it's really, yeah, it's super important that you can actually take time off on the good days. And I definitely had a big advantage over the last two years because I took a career break last year and this year during the summer holidays, I had a pretty, pretty flexible job where I could take time off quite flexibly. That definitely helped a lot. Yeah, how should I put it? It's certainly nice when you feel that, that recognition. Or I also thought it was somehow nice—I mean, we've already had people come to me a few times and said, yeah, they feel mega inspired and motivated by how I fly.
So I'm really an inspiration for them. And I found that very, very, very nice. And I don't know if, if there were no platform, no platform placements and nothing like that. Yeah, maybe people wouldn't necessarily notice it that much. How shall I put it? On one hand, I like the recognition, because you actually invest quite a lot. So I'm also thinking a bit about the social aspect. I basically didn't have any fixed plans for the weekends almost all spring, because the weather could be nice. And of course, you give up a lot there, where you see people much less who aren't flying.
So on one hand, it's certainly nice, but on the other hand, I'm also aware of how much goes into it and that, yeah, this ranking could look different if, for example, someone had managed to get one more day off or something. So I don't want to, well, I don't want to focus on everything, but just to be that great in this ranking. Or like, after I won the women's ranking last year, I really thought to myself, yeah, what should I set as a goal for next year? And I consciously didn't want to set winning the ranking again as a goal, but rather that I just wanted to get better for myself.
And yeah. And, for example, one big goal I set for myself was that I wanted to do a larger flight in four different flight areas—it doesn't have to be a 200km one, I just left it deliberately undefined—but I wanted to do a larger flight. And I made that my goal. And then, it was still enough to win the next place again. And I think, even if, for example, it was Eilmargel and she had flown a few more days of XC, it could have of course been good for her to have won. But then I wouldn't have been frustrated or sad in any way, because I set my own goals. And I'm actually happy when I,
when I achieve the goals I set for myself. That's actually more important to me than the rankings.
Well, another thing about you is that you've only been flying for four years. You got your license in 2018. Do you actually see yourself as a bit of a shooting star?
Well, how should I put it?
Yes and no. I mean, of course I've flown a very, very, very lot. And if someone comes up to me and asks, Tina, how do I get so good so fast? Then I just say, I fly a lot.
You only learn to fly in the air. Yes, I think I have around 900 hours of airtime in these four years. That's obviously an incredible amount. It's probably as much as others might do in ten years. Or something. I hardly know anyone who flies that much. It would be really interesting to see. Yes, is that mainly it? I've already noticed that I made very, very fast progress at the beginning too. It also helped a bit that I did the glider training there. So that I already understood the basics. That I had the understanding of thermals, the winch, etc. So, I was actually already flying thermals in the flight school before you were even allowed to.
Well, at my flight school, they said you're only allowed to fly thermals after 20 high-altitude flights. And yeah, I think I flew for an hour on my 13th high-altitude flight. And on my 17th high-altitude flight, I had an uncontrolled landing outside the zone. So I really dove into it quite quickly. Yeah, I was just always very motivated. After the training, I quickly switched to the glider. Liga flying definitely helped a lot too. Yeah, and otherwise, I really just think: fly, fly, fly. Yeah, that's how you get better.
If you fly that much, I'd say you're probably one of the most frequent pilots in Switzerland or something like that. Are you, in a way, addicted to flying?
Yeah, I'd say so.
Well, how should I put it? It's really a very good day when I can't go flying; I get pretty sad. Yeah, but I've also noticed now in the autumn—I've been hiking quite a bit this autumn and not hike-flying. I've actually gone hiking without the fly. Deliberately, I didn't even bring the gear. Yeah, I found that in a way also kind of nice, to have a bit of a balance again. But during the season, I really enjoy it. Especially when it's a good day where you could do a bigger flight, then I'm probably already quite addicted to flying.
Well, you surely have a circle of friends who maybe don't fly. At least part of them will belong to the non-flying faction. Now, you got into it four years ago and invested almost every weekend into it, as it sounds now. Otherwise, you just don't get to those 300 flight hours per year on average. How do they react to that? I mean, how do they see you flying so much? Do they understand it, or do you actually only get lack of understanding from them? "Martina, don't you want to do something with us again sometime?" Or something like that?
Yeah, sometimes, sometimes. So, my family, let's start with them, they just laugh now and say, yeah, of course, we only see you when the weather is bad. It's okay. Yeah, and other people, well, it really depends, I've noticed with people, how they generally live their lives or what values they have. For example, I have a good friend who doesn't fly, and when we plan something, she always adds that at the end. But if the weather is good, she says, I understand if you want to go flying.
You can just write to me, it's okay. And it's not like she's just going to sit around at home doing nothing. I mean, this woman really has a husband. You have incredibly many hobbies and stuff, but still, there's just this understanding. And with others, it's more difficult—people who like to plan everything a bit in advance and then prepare for it. If you then say, "Yeah, I can't, maybe we can postpone it or something," yeah, I've already encountered some lack of understanding, partly. No, and generally, maybe I should also mention, just like four years ago—I was still playing volleyball back then,
had an injury. My doctor then suggested that I stop playing volleyball because of knee problems, because he simply said that it could really cause major problems in the long run. That really—now, that might sound a bit mean or weird or I don't know what, but it actually did help somehow. It's a hobby, and once it was out of the picture, I could use that time for flying instead, because doing both of those things so intensely wouldn't have been possible.
Those were your friends who don't fly. Now you have friends who definitely fly with you. Who, I can imagine at least, do you fly with often? Because you fly further, or maybe you push more, or whatever, you dare to stay on it longer, or you approach it with more motivation, or whatever it is. How do they react to the fact that you might have gotten so much better so quickly compared to them?
Yeah, that's also a point, it's not always that easy. So, for example, during flight school, I met a woman and we actually became pretty good friends; we even went on two flight trips together. I started my training after her, and she was always a bit of a role model for me because she could do everything much better than I could. And then, after the training, well, at one point it kind of shifted, and she's just not... I don't know, she doesn't fly thermals as much anymore, she's not really the pilot anymore, and I've really quickly started doing cross-country flights more often.
To be honest, I don't see her very often anymore, unfortunately. Yeah, because it's just not always that easy, and at the same time, of course, I've met new people. A good friend of mine, Hitti, I fly with for hours at a time sometimes. It's really, really cool that we're at a very, very similar level and that it actually works, that we can fly together for so long. Yeah, I think it's probably not always that easy for the others either, I can imagine, because I know it myself—I know, of course, many people who fly much better than I do, and yeah, I'm often stuck on the ground.
Yeah, I'm also constantly on the ground. And everyone else keeps flying on and over me. It's not the best feeling in the world. Yeah, when you're just standing there on the ground and the others are doing the flight of the day or some incredibly cool flight. But I think it's really, really important that you actually get happy for each other, not just drown in frustration or something. A flight instructor once told me, you have to learn to drown in humility and grace. And the faster you learn that, the better. And yeah, I'm really telling myself that now. How
So, are you good at sinking with humility and grace now?
Yes, I really do tell myself that now, when I'm really at rock bottom and thinking, "shit," I say, no, now do it with humility and grace, so to speak. Yes, it just went badly this time, I don't know what. But yeah, you still have another day or whatever. Yes, I feel like I've gotten better. So also in the sense that I recover faster and become cheerful again, and can put the whole thing behind me a bit. Whereas before, it might have cost me the rest of the day. Yes,
and now I can actually take it pretty quickly and just say, so what, there's a new attempt coming.
Was it clear from the beginning, like, at your flight school, that you have a great talent for flying?
No, not at all. No, I had that. Yes, so my flying career was really hanging by a thread at one point. It was like this: I did a trial day, but then four months later I went to work in Utrecht, and I actually would have liked to start with the school immediately, but then I thought, it doesn't make sense to learn paragliding in Holland if I normally live in Switzerland. Yes. Yes, and then I really thought about it all winter over whether I should actually do it, because I always started soaring and then stopped again, it was actually all quite a shame.
And that's why I really, really thought about whether I wanted to do it. And then I went to a flight school, to the practice slope. And then, after two days on the practice slope, in the evening, there was this debriefing; there were actually three of us on the practice slope, and to the other two he said, "Yeah, you did pretty well, maybe you can do the high-altitude flights tomorrow afternoon."
And then he looked at me and said, "Look, you're a total lack of talent, you're never going to make it to the high-altitude flights."
And that was really, that was a shock.
That's what the flight instructor told you.
That's what the flight instructor told me. And yeah, I mean, I laugh about it myself now. But at that moment, I really, I went home, crawled under the covers, and had a good cry. And then I said, I've put off starting paragliding for months, and now this. But then I said, Tina, get in there. Now pull yourself together, now get out from under those covers. Go outside into the fresh air. Then I really did go outside, walked around a bit, and thought, yeah, what do I do now? And then an inner voice really said, okay, now you're just going to another flight school.
If they say you're a non-talent, well, then maybe you have to accept it. But it's possible they might say, yeah, it's not that bad and you can still do the annual training. So, I went to another flight school, Paraworld, and did two more days of practice slope. And then they said, yeah, you're super ready for the high-altitude flights, no problem at all. And yeah, I just found it pretty, pretty intense, or rather, I think a flight instructor should really never, never, never say something like that. I mean, "non-talent" is a pretty strong word.
I would have understood it if he had said something else. Like, yeah, you might need more time before you get to the high-altitude flights, or something like that. I mean, with a statement like that, I can't do anything with it. But just "anti-talent"—that's pretty, pretty harsh. But I think at the same time, yeah, that might sound weird now, but it actually motivated me in a way. In the sense that when I was in the training, I really gave it my all. Like, I read a lot of books, I passed the theory exam very quickly, and everything. So it maybe awakened some kind of ambition in me, like, yeah, I want to show him now, or something like that, or something along those lines.
I'm really giving it my all now to make it work. Yeah, I'm just glad that back then I really had the will—or had a strong enough will—to believe in myself and to go to that other flight school. Because, well, a lot would have been missing and I probably would have just really said, yeah, I guess that's just how it is, then I'll have to find another hobby.
Did you ever meet up with him again? No. And did he see what kind of success you actually achieved as an "anti-talent"?
No, I never saw him again. Some friends—I mean, this story has become a bit of a running gag. And many friends have already said, yeah, you should send him some excerpt from his XContest and somehow write something like, best regards, the anti-talent, or something like that. Yeah.
Looking back today, what would you say when you look at your still relatively short flying career? What part of it is talent and what part is hard work?
Yeah, always at the beginning, yeah, that's really, I find it a difficult question.
So like I said, having so much airtime certainly helped.
Yes, but it's also just that I did a lot of SIV training during that time. That was actually pretty important to me, just mastering the glider. Yes, but I don't know if you can really just call it talent. I think what's more important than talent is really just the motivation. And we've also told several people, just that drive, to really keep moving forward, to really, yes, not give up.
Yeah, just going out on days that might not look so great. In the past, that always kind of annoyed me, especially on days when the base wasn't that high, I'd think, oh, now this is going to be such a hassle, I don't know, something like that.
And nowadays I always think, that's good training, because usually you also have a really, really long flight
...one construction site or a major shadow where it's just really not about flying super fast or anything anymore, but simply staying up there and surviving. And yeah, and when it's, as we say in Swiss German, a "Knorzi" flight—a real "Knorzi" flight where there's a lot of grinding—then I just think to myself, yeah, that's good training. Maybe this training on day X will make the difference that I can keep flying and won't end up on the ground.
Besides those "grumpy" flights that happen to occur and where you say, "Ah, that's my training flight," do you also prepare specifically for big flights in any other way?
Yes. Yes, I'm quite the planner. So, specifically because I really enjoy going into new areas again and again,
Planning has always been something I've done, I've done it very, very early on, and yes, planning is really, really important to me. I know many people say, "Oh, that's annoying, I don't do that, it's a waste of time," or I don't know what. And I always say, well, for me it's also a waste of time if I'm standing on the ground after four hours because I somehow didn't realize that was a key point that I might have had in mind with good planning—that I need to gain enough altitude there.
That annoys me more than, say, sitting at the computer for two or three hours in the evening actually looking at it. And specifically with planning. By planning, I mean I often go on XContest to see what I want to fly roughly. Then I look for a day where, ideally, because I know there were similar weather conditions, or at least, let's say, from the time of year, I pick out a few flights from someone and then I pull up the airbodies, consciously choosing ones that aren't very long flights. And then I look at where they crashed and why, and yeah, I try to draw some conclusions from that, because the places where a few people always stay on the route—meaning they end up on the ground—those are actually the key sections.
And then I really try to commit it to memory. Ah, okay, before this and that crossing, I really need to gain altitude, even if it costs time and everything. Yeah, and I think it would probably be possible without planning, but I think when you're in an area you don't know that well, you get to a bigger flight faster—or with fewer attempts—if you actually have the key points and everything a bit in your head.
When you say planning, do you just look at it in XContest and have seen it once, or do you also go on Google Earth and try to look at the route there? Do you set, I don't know, 40 waypoints for a route where you say, okay, I'll fly all of those accordingly, or is it just that you say, okay, I have my three triangle points, which are like my corners that I've pre-planned and that's enough for me, and I'll just fly the rest somehow?
Yes, it really depends on how well I know the area. If I don't know it that well yet, I do set quite a few waypoints. Specifically on the really large thermals hotspots. Just as a point of orientation. And I've also noticed that it helps me mentally. So when I see it on my device, yes, I've set a point there. So there has to be a thermals hotspot, and I just fly there and say, yes, it has to work now.
And most of the time it works out somehow, yeah. And nowadays, for areas I know relatively well, like Ticino for example, I naturally tend more towards just setting the turning points and not like a thousand points in between. But I really find that for areas I don't know that well yet, it helps me to have those points there. And you mentioned Google Earth. So, what I sometimes also look at when I don't know a place well yet is, yeah, what it looks like in terms of landing sites. Like, where can you just try to go and if it doesn't work out and you crash, you can land safely, maybe even ideally get back by public transport, or there's at least a road where cars drive, where you can get out again.
And where is it then? Yeah, more like hiking is the way to go. Yeah, I keep that in the back of my mind a bit. And in the end, it's also a bit of a trade-off in the air. Yeah, do I try it in the next valley, for example, with the risk that I'll have to hike out if it doesn't work—if it's a valley where there's no road or anything—or do I not do it? It helps if I know, for example, if I know there's a road and so on, that I can get out again; then I'm naturally much more motivated. So I just think, yeah, I can just try going there now. On the other hand, if there's no road, it's also motivating again, because then you really don't want to crash.
So I think it's a bit of both sides, I'm realizing right now.
What goes into your planning and preparation? What do you do with the weather? How do you go about it? Or what do you look for when it comes to your big flights?
Yes, I definitely check the XC terms, just to see if the day has any potential to be really good at all. Like, what does it show kilometer by kilometer? Or also the base, so that you already have a bit of an idea, because for certain flights—if you, I don't know, want to come from Surselva to Glarnerland—you need a certain base just to get across. Then, of course, the wind. I either look at Eiken or Cosmo, which we still have from the Swiss Association, but I think that's being switched off at the end of the year. Yeah, but just so I have an idea again, like, is it going to be a reasonably nice day with little wind, or could it also be otherwise?
There's going to be quite a bit of wind. And of course, overdevelopment. So I'll look at the MeteoSwiss radar for that. What I actually enjoy doing in principle is just comparing models. And then, really, if all the models say the same thing, then it'll probably turn out that way. But if all the models are saying something slightly different, I tell myself—I talk myself into it—Tina, this is a "mystery bag" day. You just don't know what you're going to get. And that helps me a bit to lower my expectations, so I think, okay, it could turn out really well, but it could just as easily not be so great.
And then there's also the weighing up of things when it's not exactly easy to take off and all the models say one model is good, while all the others aren't so great. Then I'll say, okay, then I'll just go to work. Yeah, I try to manage it sort of in that style. But at the same time, I notice that I, like many other pilots, probably also tend to just look for and find the one model that shows what you want to see, just so you can really believe in it.
And if the flight doesn't go so well, then you say, oh, that was just another training flight. Now I've tried to somehow hold my position up there in not-so-great conditions. Let's jump into a different topic—not a different story, but something else that interests me. You are a woman. And unfortunately, it's still like that in the paragliding scene, where there's still a bit of a distinction between, ah, those are the men who fly and those are the women who fly. And somehow, women are often trusted with even less. Or if they deliver great performances, it's always seen as something like, oh, that's something. That's something truly outstanding or something like that. Do you feel this "womanhood" in any way, or see it reflected, or anything else, when you're out with male flying colleagues, especially if you might even outdo them?
Well, first of all, I'd say that because of my professional background and my studies, I've actually spent about half my life in a male-dominated environment. So, from that perspective, it's not really that special for me.
Explain briefly, what did you study or what do you do for work, where you say it's a male-dominated environment?
I studied transportation systems and then did a technical master's, so basically an engineering degree. In my undergraduate program, it was obviously clear—there were two women in my course, and everyone else was male. I can't remember exactly for the master's, though. And now I work in transport planning, basically as an engineer, and in my current job, it's actually surprising—I think we're really 50-50. But generally, in previous jobs, as soon as you do any technical profession, there are usually very many more men than women. But yeah, to get back to your question, I think when I'm out with friends, with male friends, I don't think it makes any difference at all.
...such a big difference. And I think that's cool too, because I feel like it shouldn't really make that much of a difference, because, well, yeah, we're friends, we all try to fly as well as we can, help each other out and all that. And if someone else does well, you're happy for them. It's less of a problem there. But generally in the scene, I still sense these things every now and then, yeah, I actually have an example right in front of my eyes that really symbolizes that. Specifically, I flew over 100 kilometers in the Jura and was already very, very low and saw, oh, there's a landing field down there that I even knew about.
And then I thought, okay, well, probably, I'm going to land there now, I saw that there were even a few people there. And I knew that at this landing field there's a fridge with some beer in it. I thought, yeah, that would be cool, then I could go have a beer with the people there. And I landed there after, I don't know, 110 kilometers or something. And then I walk over to the people, I didn't know them. And then they said, yeah, was it okay to take off up there? And I was like, yeah, I didn't take off there, I took off from Weissenstein. Then they were like, oh, so you flew here from Weissenstein. And I was like, yeah, but before that I flew past Chasseral.
And then I was just like, oh, really? You? Yeah. Did you fly with someone? And I really notice, I've experienced this several times, that when you do a good flight, the question really comes up: did you fly with someone? And really like, please tell me that you couldn't do it alone anyway, but that you were just following a good pilot, a good man. So, in principle, it really comes across like that. And I have to say, I find that a bit difficult. How do you deal with that? Yeah,
I haven't really found a truly good way to deal with it yet. So I just try to ignore it somehow or just think, yeah, let them think whatever they want. I don't care, I'm doing my own thing. And yeah, if they don't believe a woman is capable of it, I think that's a shame, but then it just is what it is. But basically, I also have this feeling that, yeah, certain women could, well, just believe in themselves a lot more. Like, sometimes, for some women, maybe the motivation just isn't there to try and suddenly fly further.
But at the same time, I tell myself that there are also many men who just fly around their local mountain. So actually, I think it would be interesting to do an analysis of what percentage of women have cross-country ambitions and what percentage of men do. It's probably, maybe it's even somewhat balanced. I just don't know.
Yeah, I don't know either. But it could very well be like that. In the sense that if you take the vast majority of pilots, there aren't actually that many who are really out to fly huge cross-country flights. Everyone is proud once in a while if they manage a few kilometers. But many just really say, I'm just soaring or I'm just going back and forth a bit near my home mountain and I'm happy if I've caught a thermal twice. And that's pretty much it. Would it be interesting for you, there are things like women's flying festivals and various XC camps just for women and stuff like that. Would you like to participate in something like that, or maybe even lead something like that? Or do you say, no, this "women-only flying" is actually already too restrictive for me?
So, in Switzerland, there are the so-called XC-Frauen. And that is led by Gabi Jakober, a very, very good Swiss cross-country flight pilot, and Steffi Westerhuis, who also flies very well and is also a meteorologist. And she was also a supporter of Kriegerl. So really, there's a concentrated amount of know-how with those two. And they do a so-called XC-Frauencamp twice a year, which is also supported by the league. And I'm very, very happy to be part of that. Because that's where you can talk about women-specific topics. But I have the feeling anyway that all these women who are there,
they see it the same way. So for them, it's nice to be out there with women sometimes, but they also fly with men a lot, just like I do. It's not like we'd only feel comfortable if other women were around. Not at all. In my opinion, it's actually really important that you're out there with people who fly at a similar level, from whom you can learn a lot. And whether they are men or women, that's actually secondary, I feel.
A typical women's issue, especially when flying long distances, probably isn't talked about much publicly. But how do you handle the nine-hour rule, or not following it? I mean, how do you deal with the fact that you might need to let some water out in between?
Yes, there are different options. I actually dealt with this topic very early on, or rather, I had to, because I took my exam in December 2018 and went straight on a flight trip to Andalusia, and then on one of the last days there, I flew thermals for three hours. That was by far my longest flight at the time, mega cool, I had so much fun, and I actually could have flown even longer if I hadn't had to, but I just came down and basically landed, threw my harness on the ground, and disappeared behind the next tree.
Exactly, exactly. But I think it was good because I dealt with it early on, I asked other women. Yes, I'm actually having relatively good experiences with diapers now, or as we say in Switzerland, we call them XC-Hössli, because I think "diapers" sounds like something for old people. It's not that we don't have it under control, but quite the opposite, you need a certain amount of control for it to work at all. Yes, and it actually works quite well for me. Other women also have the so-called Schipi, where they have a hose as well, and the advantage there is that you can let out as much as you want,
whereas with diapers, there's eventually some kind of limit. Luckily, I've never reached it, but yeah, I think every woman has to figure out for herself what works best. And yeah, the important thing is to just try it out, have no inhibitions about talking about it, and just test it. So when I bought the first diapers, I really went home, put them on, sat in the bathtub with my clothes on—without water, yeah—and just tried it out, to see what it's like to start with clothes on.
That
I think it's also important to simply get the psychology down to the point where you can just say, I'm just going to let it run.
Yeah, yeah.
When I use a urinal condom, I always try to pee into it at least once before at the launch site. You probably don't do that with a diaper, because it might not feel quite as pleasant, but at least you know that everything is flowing normally. And then I know I can let it go during the flight. If I haven't done that beforehand, it's much harder to just say, okay, I'll let it go now during the flight.
Yes, like another test. You basically test everything else too. You do the five-point check and I don't know what else, and make sure everything is working. And that's just part of it for a long flight.
Now let's talk about another, not a taboo, but maybe another unpleasant side of flying, namely the risk you take. How often, despite your—or precisely because of your—very, very many flight hours in all sorts of different conditions, and also flying into areas with an explorer mindset where you might not know things that well yet, how often has it happened to you where you really say, oh, I've actually experienced some critical situations that might have set you back mentally for a while?
Yes, I've experienced one critical situation or another. Surprisingly, the very first one was at Low-B with a sit-down cross-over, where it twisted me. So, I was actually flying at Rigi in what I thought were rather calm conditions, and then I really had about 70 percent collapse and it flipped me 180 degrees. And that was already, I think, even before the first Siku I did. And that was already a bit of a wow moment.
Yes, and another time I got twisted too. That was with the Zeolite in Valais. It was actually clear that the conditions were relatively heavy, but somehow, yeah, I can't say exactly what happened, but the front probably arrived, but somehow asymmetrically. And then it just took me 180 degrees around, and I just find that the feeling of having this crossing lift curve in front of you... that's just, it's not nice. That, yeah.
But how do you deal with that? Is it like, "Shit, I'm dropping the flight, I'm landing now," or do you push through it? How do you pull yourself out of that... mental hole, I'd call it, or something like that?
Yeah, that's a good question. So, I actually always try to keep flying if it's possible at all, and I've had good experiences with that, mainly in the sense of processing it—hopefully gathering good experiences again, basically having good memories of the flight instead of... because I always think to myself, if I land immediately, then the last memory I have of the flight will always be this critical situation. For example, in that flight in Valais with the CO-Light, I bit my lip for quite a long time. It was definitely for about an hour, where Hitte, a friend of mine who flew with me,
thankfully, too. At the beginning, I actually flew ahead and he waited for me because I was only turning out weak stuff and didn't want to go into the strong thermals anymore. So I was already scared and really thought to myself, I'd actually rather go land now, but then I just thought, let's try to fly for another fifteen minutes. When that was up, I said, well, try for another fifteen minutes, and okay, now you've done half an hour, let's try for another half hour.
So, what also helps me with pretty much all these things is that I feel like when something really happens, I stay very calm and that I... like, in a way, I always have what I call the flight instructor voice in my head, which actually tells me very precisely what I should do now. A really extreme example regarding this was still with the Flow Fusion toe glider; after a cross-country flight, I got into a very, very, very strong lift and I don't know if I... yeah, I probably didn't react that well, so the glider just didn't come out again and the glider shot forward incredibly.
and I really saw it coming out of the corner of my eye above my head, and while it was shooting forward, I just had, yeah, various voices in my head. The first one was like, as I said, shit, why are you letting it shoot like that? The second one said, wow, there's going to be a huge collapse now, and the third one said, will it be a front collapse or a side collapse? And all of that actually, I'd say, happened in a fraction of a second, basically from the moment the glider was already in front of my head until it was really out front and actually collapsed. And it collapsed sideways, quite a lot actually, and obviously wanted to go into a spiral right away, but even there, really,
So, at the moment it happened, a voice immediately shouted, "Outer brake, you have to stop the rotation." I just glanced out of the corner of my eye toward the collapse, and then another voice immediately said, "You don't have to look at that collapse, you just have to stabilize the flight." And yeah, and I think that just helps me enormously. Somehow, I have the feeling the voice in my head tells me exactly what I need to do right away. Yeah, and that's how I've been able to somehow muscle my way out of everything, piece it back together, until now.
Do you hear these voices in positive situations too? Like a voice telling you that you have to fly over there, that's where the thermals are?
Well, how should I put it, I had a flight instructor who always used to say,
Specifically, after doing maneuvers, he would say, smile. And sometimes the voice would say, like, oh, you're so tense, just look at how wonderful this panorama is here, just relax, it's beautiful, and ah, look, it's rising over there, or ah, look, the conditions look much better up ahead. Yeah, those voices can be really, really motivating.
Going back to this collapse situation, or not this one, but the collapse situation and things like that. I read in one of your flights, it was sometime in 2021, that you had an unpleasant experience and you wrote that kinesiology would have helped you in the end. What is that and to what extent did it help you process that collapse situation?
Well, how should I put it... I'm probably someone who has an above-average amount of fear, or let's say respect, for flying. Even though you fly so much. Yeah, I don't know. But for me, it happens even faster, especially when it gets really rough and starts to shake, that I think, wow, what is this now? Or I think to myself, I could actually be sitting comfortably at home on the sofa right now and I'm just being shaken around here. Why am I putting myself through this?
For a while, I really struggled quite a bit with this fear of crashing. I mean, I once...
I flew with someone who test-flew the Flow Fusion—the same glider I had back then. And he ended up having to deploy the reserve in very, very rough terrain, and yeah, he came down on the reserve. And that really stuck with me. I mean, he was luckily uninjured, but he really came down in very, very steep territory. I also called the Rega, the rescue helicopter, because I thought to myself, even if he's uninjured, he probably won't get out of there without help, without equipment. And that was the case. Yeah, and even though he was uninjured and everything was actually fine, everything was okay.
Yeah, so just these, these, well, these extreme rock faces, this rough terrain, it did somehow leave quite a mark on me, in the sense of, whatever. When, when I've flown in places where I have a very justified feeling of, yeah, if I were to go down on the reserve glider now, it wouldn't be very healthy. Yeah, that I was afraid of that. And in one way, it's justified, but in another, you can't just keep flying all the time and always think, yeah, I could go down here with the reserve glider. Yeah, and then it was like, a good friend of mine, Isa, she does kinesiology, so she's also a studied psychologist, and then she told me,
Yeah, maybe I could try that with her, maybe it would help me. She, she has the feeling that, that it could, yeah, it could help. And at first I was a bit skeptical and I didn't really know what it actually was, but then I just really surrendered to it. And then, yeah, I was in one of these sessions and it's also difficult to explain it like this. I think you almost have to experience it and try it out. But we then kind of figured out that there are actually almost two, two types of fear. So, one is like respect, which is actually good to have so that you don't become reckless or do something stupid.
But then there's also the fear that leans more towards actual panic or is irrational. And then in this kinesiology session, we separated these two types of fear, these different types of anxiety, and we let this more panic-based fear flow out. And yeah, and in kinesiology, there are also different colors of sunglasses. And for me, I think the red one fit pretty well somehow. And that really helped me on subsequent flights, that I could visualize this red light I saw through these sunglasses, and because of that, like,
Yeah, I was able to visualize this kind of state of calm, or rather this sense of trust that things will be okay, and that it's just fear in the sense of respect, not panic. And that actually worked really, really well.
To understand this properly, did you wear a special pair of sunglasses while flying that was, well, just a visualization then, or what?
Yes, exactly. So in kinesiology, during the session itself, they actually have sunglasses in all colors. I find that pretty funny. And you wear them and then see the whole world in that color. But afterwards, while flying, I wore my normal sunglasses and just imagined it. But what also helped me, with the fear, was that I also did mental training. That also supports the Swissleague. I think that's really, really cool. And I also talked to my mental trainer about the fear. He told me, yeah, I should think about what it looks like from the outside when I'm afraid.
Then I thought about it and told myself, "Toni, I don't think anyone can see anything on me. Like, you can't see anything. It's all, all completely normal." And then he told me, "Yeah, just think about that." And then it's like, I don't know if that was his intention, but for me, it worked pretty well that during the flight, if I felt scared, I'd really think about what it looks like from the outside. And then it kind of escalated, like, how I'm like my own
...became a sports commentator. And then I'd just say to myself, yeah, these are rough conditions, but Tina, she keeps flying. This woman knows nothing. This woman has nerves of steel. She keeps flying even when the conditions are rough. And that just worked incredibly well for me. So yeah, I think everyone just has to find their own recipe, their own way of dealing with things. Because it can also be funny stuff.
You have all sorts of different voices in your head that help you in some way. Now you just said sports commentator. You also fly competitions. Yes. If you had to decide right now, I want to fly XC—say you have a good day that would be great for XC, but maybe also well-suited for competition flying, where you say, but this would actually be the perfect day to fly really far. What appeals to you more then?
Clearly cross-country flight. And I've stood before this decision many times. Just this summer, for example, I was at the Palz Open and the conditions were actually incredibly great for flying. It was quite windy. Yes, and then I saw that on the last day, Sunday, it would be a pretty good cross-country flight day in the Bernese Oberland. So I just decided. I bailed on the competition and went cross-country flight. Yes, well, I think quite a few people found that funny too, I even wrote in the flight comments that when the heart of a competition pilot just beats for cross-country flight.
Yeah, well, if I have to choose, then it's clear, I prefer doing XC. That might have to do with the fact that you can't always do it. I mean, you can do a Comp, the weather doesn't have to be that good. If it's not that good, you can just fly a short task. But these really, really good XC days are already, already very, very limited, and I really, really like to make the most of those. That's it.
Well, you've basically achieved a lot in cross-country flying with the Swiss Championship and also second place in the world rankings and stuff like that. Is it maybe the case that you'd say, well, even though cross-country draws me in, I might want to focus more on competition flying in the future, next year, to have something new as well?
Well, I actually want to bet on both. I've flown a lot of competition this year too. I noticed towards the end that it was almost a bit too much. I think that, fundamentally, you learn a very, very lot from both—from one for the other. And yes, many people have told me, "Well, you have to decide now. You can't just do both." But in the end, it somehow worked out this year. What I really appreciate about competition flying is also the social aspect—the fact that everyone lands in the same place, that you can go for a drink together, talk about the flight together, and so on.
It's always a pretty, pretty cool atmosphere. Whereas, yeah, after an XC flight, you're often alone in some field and have to figure out how to get home first. I really appreciate that too. Yeah, but if I really want to take my competition flying really, really far forward, then I'd probably have to switch to a CCC glider. And I'm just not ready for that at the moment.
Not ready because of the risk, you'd say it's too high, the risk I'd be taking with it. I mean, you're already flying a two-liner and a D-glider. It's a CoLight GT from Ozone that you're flying now. Do you think it's still such a big step to actually get to a CCC, which, as you hear, are also becoming easier to fly? Yes.
Yeah, maybe it's also a mental thing. I don't know. I mean, I'd definitely need to do a lot more
do SIV training to fly a machine like that, let's say. Yes, I just imagine it to be quite, quite challenging. So with my CoLight, I let go of the brakes. Completely.
Often. Nothing has ever happened. Of course, I know that if there's any movement, I have to get back on the brakes very, very quickly. But that has always worked out so far. And I can also fly for 10 hours. And I don't even know if I'd be mentally strong enough to fly such a thing for 10 hours. And I just want to do everything with the same glider. Now, just somehow for the CCC competition - one glider - and another one for everything else. Yeah, I don't know. And yeah, well, with a glider like that, the margins are of course just smaller if someone eats something.
I've also discussed it a few times with friends, about whether I'd fly again if I had to land with the reserve parachute, even if I were uninjured—I feel like I wouldn't fly right away. I don't think I could just brush that off so easily. And sure, I can land with the reserve on the CoLight, I can land with the reserve on any glider. But the probability is just, I think, a lot smaller.
with a CoLight versus a CCC glider. And I'd find it kind of a shame if a bad experience then really sets you back for months or maybe even years, if you then just can't really get over it or something. So sure, that can happen, I mean right now it's just not an issue. It could change at some point, but at the moment I just feel like I'm comfortable on the CoLight. Maybe that could only become an issue twice more, but right now I just think it's nice that I feel comfortable there, that I know the glider well. Because, yeah, in the four years I've actually already had quite a few gliders
...gone through, so I've had a few changes behind me. From that perspective, it's already just nice to, like, I've arrived at this glider now and, yeah, I can fly it. And exactly, I think it's enough for XC flying. So I don't really need anything, nothing more extreme.
That means in 2023 you'll probably be heading out with the CoLight again. So, what do you—or rather, what don't you—do you have any new goals for next year, where you say you wanted to do at least four big flights this year? Do you already have a big goal you've set for yourself for next year? Yes,
So, I was just out hiking with a friend this weekend and we were dreaming about, or talking about, XC stuff that we'd really love to do sometime. And I realized there's still quite a lot of that. For example, flying home to Zurich from Cimetta in Ticino. I think that would be a really mega cool, mega great experience. Then maybe flying home from the Jura sometime. I once flew from Fiesch all the way to Austria, just before Landeck.
A friend of mine actually made it all the way to the Stubaital that day and was still behind me. So I think if I hadn't had the idea of getting home in my head, I probably would have made it there too. Yeah, I'd find that just so cool because I've flown in the Stubaital before, and just connecting Fiesch and the Stubaital, which are really, really far apart—I'd find that incredibly beautiful. Then there are also just such nice spots in the Engadin, for example, the Biancograt or starting on the Diavolezza. Yeah, there are really just so many things,
yeah, that I'd like to fly, to complete. Yeah, but as you can see, they're really mostly routes, so basically just routes I'd like to fly, and less about me saying, yeah, next season it has to be the 250 or something like that, but rather I've actually been doing well with what I have until now, that I can really just
I've set goals in terms of routes, and then I'm super motivated, and then it usually works out well that there's also a long-distance flight at the same time.
Alright, Tina, then I'll keep my fingers crossed for you—or rather, regarding how much you fly and all that, at least part of it will surely come true next year or the year after. I think people will still be able to discover a lot from you in the XContest, maybe even in the top rankings, maybe even in the first place in the XContest world ranking next year. Who knows, I don't want to put pressure on you now, it's just a little outlook. In any case, I wish you a lot of fun with it, as few negative experiences or things that might brake you as possible, but that you keep going forward, and thanks for the great stories about your many adventures you've already had.
Thank you so much for the invitation. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Podz-Glidz is the podcast of the paraglider blog Lu-Glidz. I am the producer of both offerings. My name is Lucian Haas. Lu-Glidz can be found online at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. Lu-Glidz is spelled L U minus G L I D Z. On Lu-Glidz, you will also find the show notes for this podcast episode along with some further links. If you are already a supporter of Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz, thank you. If not, then please support me in continuing to serve the paraglider scene. As a freelance journalist, I invest a lot of time into this, and it needs to be financed somehow. Especially since this isn't a hobby project, but part of the work I do for a living.
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