Many destinations have come into being simply because someone felt like going there themselves. That's the most important thing. There are destinations, especially in the Balkans, where someone just said, "Hey, I want to fly there," went there personally, and then organized a trip there.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with... Andi Flühler. And I'm Lucian Haas. Who
once you learn paragliding, you'll soon want to look beyond your local home mountains. Gliding over unknown landscapes is simply an appealing adventure. However, you want to experience that with as little planning effort and risk as possible. This is where organized paragliding trips come into play.
Most of these trips are organized by flight schools. However, there are also some specialized providers who offer only trips, not training. The most well-known tour operator of this kind in the German-speaking paragliding scene is probably Fly with Andi.
18 years ago, the Swiss Andi Flühler began offering flight trips to Spain and Italy under this brand name. Today, he has almost the entire world on his program. However, he no longer handles all of this alone, but with a handful of partners. They are inevitably all very adventurous and spend a large part of the year on the road. Andi, for example, is only in his Swiss home for about two months a year. What else is involved in the life of a full-time flight world-wanderer, what still fascinates him about this task after so many years on the road, how he deals with the changing dynamics in his travel groups, how climate protection also becomes a topic in flight travel, and which travel moments are his favorites.
Andi talks about all of this and more in this episode, number 101. If
If you like Podz-Glidz, then why not support my work as a patron? You can find out how it's possible very easily and without any obligation on the website of my paraglider blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the support page.
Andi, where can I reach you right now?
Right now, I'm in Buenos Aires with my partner. I actually travel here to South America every winter, and I've just visited a good friend of mine in Chile. Now we're in Buenos Aires, checking out the city, and then we're heading back to Sao Paulo, where we're actually spending the whole winter.
How many countries do you travel to a year?
That's hard to say.
Probably ten to fifteen countries. Mainly in Europe, and in the winter I'm mostly in Brazil and Argentina.
If you were to quantify it a bit, how much of a year do you spend abroad, or rather, traveling?
I'm traveling for about ten months and I'm in Switzerland for two months. So for me, traveling doesn't mean just going on tours, it means traveling in total, and I'm away from my home, Switzerland, for about ten months. Of course, it changes from year to year. This year I think I'm away a bit less. The last few years it was... well, during Corona I was always in Switzerland, of course, but before that it was about ten months a year.
When you're on the road as much as you are, when you do come home, does it still really feel like home?
Yes, that's still important. I mean, I have a home, I'm Swiss and I'm at home in Switzerland. Where I live is my home, but I just really love to travel. It's a huge passion and I've been doing it for about 15 years now. And traveling is still an intoxicating thing for me, going to new places again and again. I think that's really cool.
What is it about it that's so intoxicating for you?
Seeing new things. I don't think I'm the type who enjoys repetition. That's true for flying too. So, if I were to fly to the same three destinations day in and day out, I don't think I'd have much fun at all. For me, the real fun comes from the new and the unseen. And that's what makes traveling so appealing to me. It's new people, new countries, and new landscapes—especially now.
Are there still situations or moments where traveling becomes a burden for you? Where you say, "Now I have this upcoming flight. I know ten people are coming and I really don't feel like it."
No. No, it doesn't become a burden. I've been doing this for a few years now. And you always have to make sure the energy stays there. And of course, there are more exhausting things and things that go more easily. But overall, I wouldn't say it's exhausting. No. I mean, I like it. I find it more of a...
A cool story that gives me a lot personally. And it's where I also draw energy from traveling. Meeting other people, other pilots. Flying somewhere I've never flown before—that gets me going. I think that's an extremely cool thing. For me personally.
But you're not just a traveler, you're also always the organizer. The organizer. The host for your passengers that you take along. That means you always have a huge responsibility too. How do you deal with that?
Yes, that's true. But I think everyone has a lot of responsibility these days. The moment they get into the car, they already have a lot of responsibility. And I think you try to give your best. You try to be energetic, to be fit. And then there's... I can't give any more than that. And I feel like that puts everything in a safe framework. And that way, I can also carry the responsibility. Presumably, it's also a bit the experience that makes it easier for you. Maybe, yeah.
What kind of experience? Also the experience of saying, somehow, everything still turns out okay? Or what is the experience that contributes to that?
No, I think the experience is anticipating situations. And in foreign countries and unfamiliar flight areas, being able to assess the entire flight situation relatively quickly and well.
What is the biggest concern that haunts a tour operator like you when you're out there?
Yes, the biggest concern is, of course, if something happens. What happens if something happens? That is a very big concern for a tour operator. So, like, what options do I have if something does happen anyway? Because as tour operators, we can set conditions and give recommendations. But we can't control our guests' paragliders ourselves. So they can actually cause accidents. And the biggest... the biggest concern is what happens afterwards? We naturally prepare for that. But still, if you come from Switzerland and are used to Swiss standards, it's already a bit different abroad, even in Italy or Spain.
Yeah,
I mean, a Swiss rescue team is probably, you can assume, on site within 20 minutes at the latest if you've called them. But what if you're somewhere in the Brazilian northeast, say you were out in the backcountry, is there some kind of established emergency protocol there where you say, "We've written this down for ourselves," or do you just hope that nothing happens?
No, that's not the case. I mean, fortunately, it happens practically very, very rarely, thank goodness. But we have discussed these emergency scenarios, of course, and I have to be honest, we've had to apply them a few times already. But in the end, it usually differs a bit from situation to situation. If a helicopter is needed, it might be that you have to call in people you know, like those who know this organization well and so on. So it's a...
We have a prescribed scenario for how it should go down, but sometimes it's still a bit different than you'd think. And we don't have much... Yeah, especially in Brazil, we actually have very little practice with this. And if you fly a lot in Switzerland, everyone has a lot of practice because everyone has probably dealt with rain before. Not because of flying, but with something else.
And that's of course... Of course, we have little practice with that abroad. But we do prepare, of course. That is very, very important.
What I always wonder, when you do these kinds of trips as an organizer, is that you often don't know what you're going to get. And by that, I basically mean the people you get. Are they good pilots or bad ones? Are they good starters or not? So, what risk can you attribute to them and what not? On the other hand, are they pleasant... or are they annoying companions? Like, can they ruin a whole group because they're just stupid in certain ways? How do you prepare for such groups when you know, I don't actually know them yet?
Yes, that's a good question, Lucia. I can't give you a precise answer. You feel or learn very quickly how to assess how good pilots are. I mean, it doesn't really matter. But how well someone flies—you have to be able to recognize where a pilot's potential for danger lies. Is there any at all, or is there none? For many, there isn't actually a specific dangerous situation. The most important thing is that someone knows how well they can fly and what they can handle. And if that's a bit off, then we have to intervene. But that doesn't happen with everyone. And you learn that over the years.
It's easy to spot when that happens. I mean, when people misjudge themselves a bit, then it becomes dangerous. If people know what they're capable of, it's actually hardly dangerous at all, I have to say.
How can you tell particularly quickly if someone is a good pilot?
There are many factors, but I can't tell you right now. You observe, and especially if you don't know someone, you look at the first five minutes. But we know 80 percent of our guests. We know their exact background, we know exactly what they can do, and roughly how they behave in different situations. There are people who are more anxious or reserved. There are people who are more offensive pilots. And that kind of information is good to have. Then you can give them personal... a bit of support, some advice on how things would work best for them personally today.
You just said that we already know 80 percent of the people. Does that mean there are a lot of people who travel with you regularly? And that's why you say, "Oh, Peter, I remember you from last time in Sicily, and now you're joining us in Brazil, great." Exactly. It's almost like a "Fly-with-Andy" family that you're on the road with regularly. You could put it that way, yeah.
You just mentioned those slightly annoying travelers that everyone probably fears and every group... So, on group trips where you don't know the group, you're always afraid that people like that might be there. Do you have specific psychological techniques for dealing with those kinds of people or for integrating them better into the group?
That's actually the most important point. The most important thing is that a well-harmonized group is formed. And if someone is struggling to fit in... then as a guide or a leader, you naturally support that person. That is the most important thing. So you don't just have to help people with the flight, but maybe also help them integrate into a group. And we do that. We do that. So we try to support those people who have a bit more difficulty. Not everyone is a group person. And in principle, we don't find anyone... not just annoying in that sense, but if you do the job we do, then I believe you have to fundamentally like all people.
And then there are people who take more energy and people who take less energy. You can't really tell if someone has that "nervous blessing" you're talking about. There are just some people who have a bit more difficulty fitting into a group dynamic.
What would you say is more in demand than a tour guide? With this aviation background, or do you have to be more of a psychologist?
I think it takes both. I think it's mainly about social skills. You have to know a bit about group dynamics. But you actually learn that by leading trips. And aviation-wise, you have to be relatively proficient at assessing situations so that nothing happens. Because of course... of course everyone coming with us is a pilot. But you're advising the people. You do a briefing in the morning that describes the day quite precisely. And you also describe the hazards that might arise. You describe the possibilities and plan any potential flights.
And that takes a bit of experience when you're heading outside of your home flight area.
Leaving your home flight area. That also means you always have to be able to assess the weather well in such remote countries to say whether it's safe to fly today or not. How do you do that? I mean, what do you rely on to know what the weather will be like worldwide?
Yeah, now I have to give you a bit of background, Lucien. Because we travel to areas where we've already been. So the first thing we do is go there and fly there. For example, we were here in Argentina, we were here four years ago and flew there for two weeks with the team. We tried to recognize the conditions, the weather, and specific weather situations. And that's the most important thing again. Of course, there's a weather report, which is pretty accurate nowadays. No matter where you are on this earth, of course not as accurate as in the Alps, but actually accurate enough to fly safely in these countries. But there are always area-specific situations as well.
And you recognize those by visiting these destinations beforehand. That's also a lot of fun. It's a really cool situation with our team. We go somewhere and see how it works there. That was the case in Sertão in Brazil. It's actually like that on almost every trip.
One problem. A problem with the weather could also be one, because you can't pre-plan it; the weather just happens as it happens. And it can happen that you go on a flight trip and say, I'm going to be in Argentina for a week or something. People pay a lot of money for that, and in the end, the weather doesn't work out the way it normally does at this time of year. And they say, yeah, it's usually dry and hot in Argentina. You can fly great, but unfortunately this year, it's El Niño or whatever. We have a lot of humidity and it's not working out. Yeah. Do you keep people's spirits up when it's not possible to fly?
Yeah, so what you're saying there is true. For every paraglider, flying is actually the most important thing. Of course, you also travel to see the land and the people. So flying is part of the overall travel experience. But flying is central. And for us, it works like this: if we go to destinations where there's a significant weather risk, we try to be very flexible and move around. For example, in Brazil. Now, we know pretty exactly where we need to go and in which season. But we'll also travel, say, 1,500 kilometers away, just drive for a day to get out of a bad weather zone, and then carry out the trip somewhere else entirely.
So we're actually more about moving than sitting around in bad weather. Of course, you can't avoid it completely. There's always going to be a bad weather day, which you can easily push through. But it's bad when you have a week or ten days of bad weather. Then everyone is actually ready to move on. And that's not always possible everywhere. But I'd say for 90 percent of our trips, we move like that. So we practically don't book hotels in advance. Or only five days ahead. And then we move very much according to the weather. Because that's the most important point for us. Have
Have you ever had trips where, for example, nothing at all happened because of the weather? Me neither.
Where was that, maybe? That might have happened once in Spain. But that was probably 15 years ago. So, nothing. "Nothing" means practically nothing for a week. Yes, that happened. Because in winter... We have a trip to southern Spain just like that, where we're there for a week or ten days. And then it can happen that the weather isn't good for a few days. But by now, we also know the alternatives there. And that actually protects us a bit from just sitting around and doing nothing. Or doing sightseeing, one day after another. So it practically doesn't happen anymore. We try to plan the trips that way too.
And that they fit into the best weather windows. We go to the Balkans in July and August, for example. To Greece at the end of August. Those are weather-safe situations. We go to southern Brazil in January and to Argentina. Those are pretty weather-safe situations.
So, someone who is maybe thinking about going on some trips and wants to see where they can best travel at what time. They can just... take the Fly with Andy calendar without actually going with you. But they can then say, okay, I see they're offering Greece at that time, Brazil at that time. They have experience; that's actually a good weather period if I were to travel there at the same time.
Exactly, I'd say yes. Yes, you can probably do that. I mean, that's our opinion of course, but you can do it.
Our planning is exactly like that. We look at exactly how, where it's best, and at what time of year. If
...sometimes really nothing works out, even if you don't have an example of where that was back then, but like that. But there are times when you have three or four days of bad weather. And especially those aviation geeks who say, I specifically booked this flight trip. I've already spent my usual family vacation. And now I have this one week off from my wife and kids. I'm allowed to go flying now and I can't get to fly.
How much do you take that to heart when you notice that the mood in the group is slowly starting to shift after the second day of sightseeing? What do you do then?
Yeah, you have to make sure it doesn't tip over, right? So of course you look out to make sure it doesn't. You make sure people can experience something, that you still try to make it an eventful trip. I was just thinking about how many days last year I didn't fly. So it's... Lucia, it's really very, very few. We can practically fly every day. So it's really not as touchy as you're describing it. Having a week of bad weather—that was over 10 years ago for me, 15 years now. So if you... I think the hit rate south of the Alps is already pretty good.
And there are also trips, like for example in Alpernay, that you cancel when you see, hey, the weather just isn't good. These four days where we're going to San Fermo, we'd cancel that. I mean, it makes no sense to go on a paraglider trip if the weather is bad, right?
I asked you about this earlier, but internationally, when you're really far away in Brazil or Argentina or somewhere else, what do you use for these weather assessments? Are there local apps, or do you say, I mainly look at Windy and use my experience with it and that's... Yeah... Yeah,
We take, I think, what pretty much everyone takes. So we use Windy and MeteoBlue. And ultimately, it's important for us that we can also plan that information we get into a specific area. So the information or experience of an area combined with the weather report makes you more accurate with the weather, I believe. And that grows over the years where you find yourself in the same area. And we always take these two weather reports. X-Skies also, three. We take three. So X-Skies, Windy, and MeteoBlue.
To what extent do you also use locals as employees, or perhaps tap into their weather knowledge or something like that? Or do you find that if you've been there for a long time—meaning you've traveled there multiple times—that with your pilot's perspective, you basically have... or by now have a better understanding of the weather than perhaps some people on the ground?
Yeah, I wouldn't put it that way. I wouldn't make a ranking of better or worse. I mean, we can hold our own pretty well wherever we go. Of course, we have employees who are local. So in Brazil, we always work with the same Brazilian team. In Argentina, we work with an Argentine friend. Naturally, we always bring local people into the team and also discuss the weather situation with these local people. But it's more of a teamwork thing where you try to figure out the best way to do it. That's especially important in Southern Italy. We have a very good local friend there who supports our team.
And that's already quite important. In other places, it's less. It's less important because we've been there for 10 years or even 20 years. Then it's not equally important anymore. By then, you also slowly get to know the local conditions a bit.
You just mentioned areas where we've been for 10 or 20 years. Let's just jump back more than 20 years in your life. Tell me your aviation story. How did you get into it and how did you ultimately end up with Fly with Andy?
So I started with... you had to be 16 in Switzerland. That's when I started flying. And then, like many who are in this scene now, I eventually became a flight instructor, getting my instructor's license at 21. Back then, it was with gliders. And then I started training glider pilots. And for three years—but that was during the time when gliding was more or less... On
...on the downward slope? Yes.
Yeah, I almost didn't want to say that, but that's just how it was during that time. And now, after three years, I was very young. At 25—well, 24, 25—I also did my paraglider flight instructor training. And then I taught at a paragliding school. For 10, 15, 12 years in an Eastern Swiss paragliding school. And then I'd somehow had enough of schools. I'd seen it, I'd done it. And then I didn't do anything at all for a year. I traveled around Spain mostly and flew. And I thought about what I'd do next. And then it got a bit too boring for me again, living there in Spain.
And I founded Fly with Andy. And I built this company later together with Michael Gebert. And I built this company later together with Michael Gebert, and now we've been traveling the world with interested people for over ten years, and the most important thing for us is that we actually have a good time with good people, especially with friends in the team; that's a very, very important aspect for us because we're on the road so much, the team bonds are extremely important to us, of course.
You have Michael Gebert as a partner, and not for that long yet, but then also Dominik Rohner, yet the whole company is still called Fly with Andy, even though you could also say Fly with Dominik or Fly with Michael or something like that. Why, when you teamed up with Michael, why did you keep the name Fly with Andy together?
So it wasn't my wish or anything, we just asked a marketing person and they recommended it to us at the time because the brand already had a certain value back then, and they strongly recommended that we keep it, and now it's like this. And it also depends on how Michael feels about it, and Michael doesn't care, it didn't matter from the start, and I don't really care either whether my name is in there or not, so whether it says Fly with Andy, Fly with Michael, or Fly with Dominik, it's completely unimportant to me, but it is the name, it has a certain level of recognition in Switzerland, and that's why back then,
we didn't change it, or he was already six years old when we teamed up, and by then people already knew it a bit.
If I see it correctly, Fly with Andy is, at least in the German-speaking world, yes, you could say the most well-known and largest flight school-independent paragliding travel company or provider that exists. Is this size that Fly with Andy has now a blessing for you, or is it also a bit of a curse?
No, it's a blessing. No, it's great because back then, when I was alone, it was like a one-man show, you had the entire
...corporate responsibility or business responsibility myself, and now I'm just a cog in the machine, so to speak, right? I'm never as important as I was at the beginning, and we have very good employees, and I'm actually very relaxed by now and can take a lot of time off, can fly a lot, and that was the whole goal—to get out of that tension and into a relaxed, good professional and personal life phase. That's how it is now.
You just said I can fly a lot. Is that during the time between your trips, where you still fly a lot, or do you also fly sometimes during your trips? Or do you actually give that up entirely?
No, if we do something like further training, XC camps, then of course I travel with them. But that's the smaller part. Most of the time you don't fly, I don't fly with them. I don't think Michael does either, because we often monitor the whole situation at the launch site, that's the story. We monitor the flying, we monitor the logistics, and we hardly get a chance to fly. But I still fly 150 to 200 hours a year. So I have enough time to fly besides the trips, that works out very well.
But then you're not flying with clients, but rather for yourself alone or with friends or with your team, where you then
explore new destinations.
Yeah, you go flying with the team or with friends, and when we're abroad, often somewhere where you want to check out a bit how exactly the flying works. But of course, you're not in the role of a tour guide anymore; you're flying without any responsibility, just responsibility for yourself, of course.
But it's in the back of your mind; it always plays a role when you, for example, come to a new area, look at it, and say, oh, that could maybe be interesting for a tour. Or you can also go flying in certain areas and that job background—it really stays completely in the background.
Yeah, when I fly in Switzerland, it stays completely in the background. I go flying with my buddies, and I fly because it's just really fun. I'm not in Switzerland that long, either. I'm there for two months a year, and I really love flying there. I grew up there and I know the mountains in Central Switzerland very well. I live in Lucerne, and I'm happy every time I can go flying there with friends. It's a great thing. I love flying incredibly much. It gives me a lot. And in Switzerland, I don't think about the job at all. But whenever I'm somewhere else in this world and go flying, I always think about whether I should offer a trip here or not.
That always comes to mind.
When you're out traveling like that, what do you personally bring along? I mean, do you always have three luggage carts attached because you have your own paraglider, maybe you have to fly a winch somewhere, and other stuff? Or how does that work?
We have equipment here in South America and we have winches in Europe. You don't have to haul those anywhere anymore. So maybe here in South America from Brazil to Argentina, but that's not a big deal. Personally, I travel with my paraglider, 14 kilos of radio and tracking equipment, and a small carry-on suitcase. It's not that bad at all. I can't really travel with very little luggage. I think the more you travel, the less luggage you have. I don't need that much. The most important thing for me is well-functioning equipment for myself and the whole
The infrastructure equipment isn't that heavy either. Maybe 5 kilos. I can easily manage with the paraglider, 23 kilos, and a piece of carry-on luggage—that's no problem at all.
You just mentioned tracking equipment. In the past, live tracking wasn't really a thing yet. That's only improved in recent years because mobile networks in more remote countries have also gotten better and so on. Do you fly with it today, or do you have all your customers fly with live trackers so that you also know where they are?
In 95% of cases, yes. Of course, there are trips where you mainly practice backcrosses and top landings, for example, where you don't need trackers. But the moment you fly out of the line of sight or the glide angle, all our guests have trackers. That is very, very important to us. It covers a key safety aspect and enables the possibility to fly tracks in a safe way.
basis. And for us, we can just sleep much more peacefully if we always know where the people are, where they've landed, and that's already a very, very important point. I can still remember quite early on, someone didn't show up at 4 a.m. I remember exactly after my fall, and they weren't reachable by phone, nor by radio, and that already caused a bit of stress. Luckily, nothing really happened, but this
Actions back then, you don't really have those anymore today because the trackers work 100% of the time where we fly.
That means it's also made the guiding significantly more relaxed for you overall.
Totally. Yeah, it's really worlds apart, yeah, it's become very, very important for us and for setting up the logistics well too. So when you go out to fly routes, there's also a retrieval service, and you can set up this service much more relaxed and better if the people fly with a tracker. Yeah.
Do you give them a tracker, or do you say, hey, download this app on your phone and it has to work with that?
No, we decided to get one for the Flymaster Trecker and we give those to the people, yeah. Everyone who comes on a trip with us still has a Flymaster in their checked luggage, and that has become an important thing for us, yeah.
Going back, we mentioned the term "tow wind" earlier. I believe you were one of the first, or maybe even the first, to basically introduce the tow start in Northeast Brazil and say that to fly long distances there, it's best to start from a winch. How did that happen? How did the idea come about where you said, we're really doing the winch start now?
Yes, that was actually a coincidence, I have to say. I mean, we always thought that winch flying would be much easier than taking off from those windy edges, because in Northeast Brazil, starting from the mountain is already quite windy, you have to say. And we ended up at a winch, with a piece of equipment to go with it, and then we set off as a team; after that straight flying, we moved around the area and sought out the adventure with this winch. It went on like that for two or three years with the team or in very small groups.
That was really the kick for us, and then we realized, hey, there are good opportunities and good conditions to offer the whole XT flying from the winch in Sertão, and then we did it, and today practically everyone only flies from the winch in Northeast Brazil. For us, it grew slowly, starting from that adventure we experienced ourselves during the first two or three years, and then towards what it is today.
For several years now, every year in September—or I think it's September or early October—the Swiss League basically visits you or uses your infrastructure in the hope of flying new world records and stuff like that in Brazil too. Are those special weeks for you in any way?
I really enjoy being in the northeast of Brazil. It's a very
inspiring area. I like it there. It's special, especially in terms of the conditions. I also find there are some particularly interesting people there. It's really an adventure, and the Swiss league—I think that's a really cool thing when they come. I like it when people really explore the possibilities of an area. I can't do that myself. These top pilots can, like Michael Siegel; Kriegel Mauer was there too. So they've already shown how far and how well you can fly there. That amazes us, and it's clearly an inspiring thing.
Well, you're basically flying from sunrise to sunset. So you have to get up very early every morning to have the winds and everything else ready. If they've all already started relatively early, what do you actually do in northeastern Brazil for the rest of the day?
That's a very good question. So, of course, we have to monitor what's happening on the Lifetrack, how far they're flying. It takes a bit of experience. Then we have to organize a recovery service. That's not that easy over 500 kilometers. So you also have to see what the pilots are thinking. We also communicate with the pilots via WhatsApp, for example, and ask what they plan to do, whether they'll finish a flight or cancel it so they can drive back on the same day. I basically organize the logistics for these pilots and the safety backup. That's my job there, and then there are four, five, six recovery people who...
accompany. And then with the car.
And you're the man in the background coordinating all of this. And you're on the phone with your recovery cars saying, hey, Kriegel just turned right, he's not going to fly over the edge at the back, he'll probably land at the reservoir or whatever.
Yeah, that's not exactly how it is...
It's crazy how you're describing it now, but the people who are in our team have been with us for years. So they know themselves, they see the track themselves, they see everything, they have all the instruments on board themselves, and a lot of the decisions are actually made by them. At the end of the day, you often have to split things up a bit—who takes care of whom, who comes back, and who keeps going. I definitely step in, but otherwise, this group is extremely good and very independent, handling everything from the first to the last pilot. That's actually very important. It's not a huge deal. Because of this experience from these
the Brazilian employees, that's top-notch, I have to say.
If someone flies 500 kilometers one way, how much driving distance is that in the end? Because you probably can't drive in a straight line like the person flying there can.
That works, so if someone flies 400 plus kilometers, you drive there by car, the landing just before the
At dusk, and then you stay overnight there. The drivers drive there that day, which is from seven in the morning until six in the evening, or eleven hours. They stay overnight on-site and drive back the next day. This doesn't happen every day now. Although the flight conditions there are already very reliable, not every day is a 500-kilometer day yet. There are many days that are 400 kilometers, most are at least 300 kilometers. There are also shorter days. We say we have to be back shortly after dusk, otherwise, organizing a return trip at night feels a bit too dangerous for us.
Then we stay overnight, take the next day off, and start again with these people the following day.
How many driving kilometers does that add? So if someone flies 400 kilometers, is it always basically double the distance you have to calculate for a one-way trip by car, because you're driving so many curves?
No, I wouldn't say that. I think it's a factor of 1.3 or 1.something. So it's not that bad; I think for 500 kilometers, you're probably driving 650 kilometers. I'm just guessing here, yeah. But there are no highways, so it does take time. So to drive those 600 kilometers back, it'll take about 10 hours the next day.
And then, in that case, even if you can't really compare them that well otherwise, the car ride is probably actually more dangerous than the flight itself, right?
Yeah, that can be the case, yeah. That's actually our biggest concern, I have to be honest. So the winching, the starting, that's done with extreme safety measures, you know that well too, Lucien. Then the flying, I find that now,
not exceptionally difficult. Landing can get tricky if there's a lot of wind, right? And the retrieval—you have to make sure those people can drive relaxed, without pressure and without stress, and especially in daylight. That relaxes the whole situation a lot, yeah. So, "I have to be back now because I want to start again tomorrow"—we don't have that; we don't do that with our... for us, it's too dangerous, as you said yourself. So, driving can become dangerous, yeah.
Has anything ever happened with the recovery teams?
Not yet, no. The wood-eating, but luckily nothing has ever happened while driving.
When you do these kinds of record flights in Brazil, on paper it always sounds great, or like these are really impressive feats being achieved. If you look at it from today's perspective, where climate change and all that is being discussed, you can of course see it critically and say, yeah, they first have to do these intercontinental flights to get to Brazil, and then they fly 500, and for that, the car has to drive another 1,300 kilometers just to get it back, and stuff like that. So a lot of things add up there. Is that an issue for you or for the people who are there on site? Is there also talk about how to deal with that?
Yes, I think we live in a conscious world. I believe everyone is aware of the footprint they leave behind, and of course, what we do in Northeast Brazil isn't a good footprint, but we don't actually talk about it consciously because it's clear to everyone that there is no positive climate balance or positive footprint; that's just the starting point. So everyone has their own attitude, and we are providers, and as long as there are people who want to do it, we do it.
I think that's difficult to discuss right now. Of course, it's not something you have to say, it's good, but everyone creates their own prevalence with everything they do, and then some say, I'll do it every four years, or I just won't do it. Everyone is on their own and adjusts themselves to the climate situation. Personally, I don't want to comment on that politically at all. Of course, if you're a travel provider, you're more on the negative side of the climate. You can just consider how important it is culturally
for
people travel today, and I believe it's an important cultural part to go traveling, and you don't have to step over the climate balance of traveling. That is, I think, just always rather negative.
Flying, so not paragliding, but general flying as well, is likely to become a bit more expensive again in the future; the era of super cheap flights is probably over.
Do you think something like that could affect your business a bit?
Yes, we naturally adapt to our guests' wishes. So, if you notice that people don't like flying anymore, we've already started offering trips that are accessible by car. We adapt to the spirit of the times, and to the needs and wishes of our guests. That's the most important thing in the kind of business we run.
You offer, for example, so-called camper van tours. What is a camper van tour? What do you do there?
Well, of course, you don't go on a "Büssli tour" in the sense of traveling by bus; it's a "Büssli tour" where you travel somewhere in a camper, and then we organize the infrastructure from the campsite on-site. For example, I'll say something now—to England—and then you go to the campsite in England, and there we organize buses on-site and fly together. That's the "Büssli tour." But we have other tours, like to central Italy, where you might go by bus and return by train, or go by train as well. That exists too. So we offer what appeals to the current spirit and the customers. That's the most important thing for us. There's already this trend, but this...
development, that there are people who actually don't want to get on a plane anymore to fly within Europe, and for them, we also have an offer, of course.
How do you find new destinations? I mean, what's your process or what do you look for? Is it just like, "Oh, I'm interested in Albania, let's add Albania to the program," or is there some kind of more strategic thinking behind it?
No, no. I think you just feel like experiencing something for yourself, making a trip yourself, and then you experience it and, of course, in the back of your mind, you think, maybe that would be something to do a trip there. Many destinations have already come about because you feel like going there yourself. That's like the most important thing. There are destinations, especially in that balcony, where you just said, hey, I want to fly there, went there yourself, and then did a trip there. In Kosovo, we also—in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it's also like that idea, it was exactly like that, we were there and Micha and I traveled there together, went there for a week, and thought, hey, that's cool, that's really a very special
landscape, a special land, and now we're flying there.
I think, I think that this year, so 2023, you're also offering a bus tour to the Tatra. What is the Tatra like? I don't know the Tatra, so I know it by name of course, I know roughly where it's located, but I think it's somehow one of the forgotten European mountain ranges, I'd say, because
Many pilots might have heard the name, but no one from the German-speaking community has flown there yet, at least. You don't really read much about it either. What's the Tatra like? How did you get into it?
So we thought about it exactly the same way as you did, we told ourselves, hey, that's a mountain range that's been somewhat forgotten, just like you. And then Michael traveled there, flew there. He's already done a tour there and this year I'm going on a camper van tour there. We've wanted to do that for the last few years, the last three or four years, and then the weather was just never good, so you go somewhere else, we went to Italy or I think to Spain once, so I just adjust to the weather like that, and I hope that it works out this year that we can go to the Tatra, that would be really cool, so I'm very interested in that personally too.
Are the people who join your more adventurous tours actually a different type of person than those who do the standard tours—like Southern Spain or Abruzzo, where people say those are the more well-known areas you've been going to for longer—is it just a different type of person who joins in for the adventures?
Yes, I think there are
two different types of travelers. I think there are travelers who prefer to be far away from tourism and want to travel to places where it's wild and crazy on a tourist level, right? Not looking at it as a whole, and from my perspective, those are more the adventurers. And then there are people who like going to well-known areas where you aren't strongly surprised by the culture, the land, or the people. That's the other type of travel. I think we have a good mix between traveling to, let's say, non-touristy areas and traveling to touristy areas.
With these different types of travelers, does that also show up in the way they fly? Or in their skill level or something, like saying that the adventurers are only those who are already really great pilots, or are some very inexperienced people actually very adventurous and you have to put a brake on them?
No, well, flying actually never becomes adventurous. I mean, it does become adventurous because you're flying over an area you've never flown over before. So if you call that the adventure now, then of course it is, but adventure can also be something dangerous with an uncertain outcome, and that's not allowed to happen when flying. So the moment you go into the air, you prepare and basically do everything to ensure it happens within a safe framework. Even with adventure travel, the adventure is the fact that it's in an area with little tourist infrastructure and where you're flying where you've never flown before.
Landscapes you're seeing for the first time and in an environment where there's little to no aviation scene. I would call that an adventure. But taking off and then thinking, "Yeah, let's see how this turns out," that obviously can't happen. That would be totally against the fundamental laws of flying.
Which continent is still a blank spot on the map? On the Fly with Andy map?
I think Asia. None of us have really shown any interest in going there yet. I
I think you have Georgia in the program. And you could sort of count Georgia as part of Asia.
Eurasia, or whatever you want to call it.
But then you probably don't have Southeast Asia and stuff like that. Thailand and the like. Why not?
Australia, I don't really know. I mean, for us, it depends a bit on where you personally feel like going. So far, none of us who do this—Michael, Verena, Dominik, or I—have really felt like going there. We go where we're most interested in going. A lot of people want to go to South America now. We've also been to North America. But Asia, we've... well, exactly, we've never been there. Maybe it'll happen soon. But yeah, I don't see it happening right now. I don't think 2024 either. Maybe. I'm curious to see what my colleagues want.
What about Africa? I mean, Africa is a huge continent, and it actually offers so many adventurous areas where, especially if you were to take a winch along, you could fly across some very adventurous corners. For example, we offer expeditions in the Sahel or something like that. Everything is flat, you can take off beautifully and then sail across many baobab trees.
Yes, we're there, we're there, I mean, it's a very appealing idea and we're actually on it. So, we were already in Namibia with the winch this time. Those were very impressive, exciting trips, I have to say. That was a very cool story. Then we were in South Africa. Michael has often already been to Ethiopia. Dominik has been to Kenya more often. So, we've already traveled to several countries in Africa and we'll certainly do it again. Let's see what comes up in the next two, three years. I do believe we'll travel there again soon, because that is also
culturally and geographically extremely exciting. Of course.
If you could book a flight for yourself right now, which one would be your favorite?
Oh,
I think I would
It's called Expedition Sertau. I think that's the one I'd most like to join. To be honest, I've actually been part of that before, as a participant, so to speak. And it's a journey we take from Rezive, 1,000, 1,200 kilometers into the interior, where we fly from airfield to airfield, in about 100-kilometer intervals, and land and stay overnight there. The next morning, we take off again from this landing strip near this town, fly further, and that's something that really appeals to me. I find this extremely cool, this...
Flying forward step-by-step. I personally really like that.
The tow strip isn't intended for towing, though; these are always small airstrips that exist somewhere where you can take off from.
Beyond that, there are abandoned airfields; we can easily get a permit to land there most of the time, and then we fly on from there. There are about 10 airfields—so 10 runways over 1,000 kilometers—and we fly from one runway to the next. It's really cool, I love it.
And is there always a hotel near the runways, or how do you do that?
Yes, the slopes are usually near a small town or a village, so there's always a hotel nearby. So the slopes aren't so remote that there's nothing there; rather, they were actually infrastructure efforts by the Brazilians 20, 30 years ago, they built slopes there, and lately they just haven't needed them and now they're falling into disrepair again, and we can optimally haul on these slopes.
How long are they, I mean, what release altitudes do you get there?
I'd say 1,000 to 1,600 meters, but that depends on the conditions, of course—roughly 400 to 800 meters of altitude. Sometimes even 1,000.
Now, a lot of Swiss people are traveling with you too. I assume that a large part of your customers are still Swiss, is that correct? Yes. 70,
80 percent.
And now, the Swiss probably aren't necessarily the ones who fly the winch much, if they've ever flown a winch at all. How do you do that at the beginning? Basically, you have to do a winch training with them on-site first, or how do you do it?
Yeah, but I don't think it's that difficult. Flying a winch, do you find that difficult, Lucien? I don't think it's that difficult. No, but in
In Germany, you have to get an official winch license to be able to fly with the winch. Even though it's not rocket science, it goes pretty quickly. But it's like, there will probably be many of you who come and say, this is my first flight, this is my first winch launch here in Brazil.
Yes, that exists, we do an induction, theoretically and practically, but it's really not that difficult. I think the main safety issue, or the main danger, if we can even talk about that, is with the logistics, the winch operation, and the procedure. And the pilot doesn't actually have much to do with that. What the pilot does isn't really demanding when winch flying. What the winch operator does, I find quite demanding on the other side, of course. He decides very often whether there's a launch abort, in most cases a launch abort, or not, because he sees the glider is crooked, too far back, it works or it doesn't work.
And I think the team, the towing team, is the most important point for safety. Pretty much anyone who can paraglide reasonably well can tow quickly and immediately. Would you see it that way too? You're a winch flyer, right, or would you see it that way too? Also.
So I also fly winch, and I'd say it's not difficult at all; basically, you can hook up an experienced pilot, explain roughly how it works, and then it works wonderfully the first time, provided you have a winch pilot or a launch leader who really pays attention to making sure the glider is immediately released if the launch doesn't happen. A second question regarding the inexperienced Swiss: now, not just inexperienced with winch flying, which is relatively easy, but Swiss as mountain pilots are also inexperienced with lowland flying and this slightly different thermal development in the lowlands, like in Brazil and such. How often does it happen that people actually have no success at all?
You say they're flying from airstrip to airstrip, ideally 100 kilometers further, but how many of them from a group you're with do you actually have to constantly pick up somewhere along the route because they've already stalled out halfway through because they didn't understand how the system works?
Yeah, I mean, there are very different days. There are easier days and harder days. Flying over flat land is a different way of flying thermals and cross-country compared to how we do it in the Alps. That's exactly what makes it so appealing, I find, for me too. I grew up in the Alps and have experienced the vast majority of my flying in the Alps. Or in the mountains in the past. Shorter in the past, but I find flat land flying extremely cool, extremely appealing, because it's something different, because it opens up a new horizon. But you also have to learn it a bit, and it just depends on what goals I set for myself. If someone starts flying over flat land, it's a question of goal setting.
Of course, then comes
willpower alone isn't enough to reach the goal on a winter tour like that; you need experience and a lot of flying, just like usual, but
Paragliding is all about practice anyway, and you can get a lot of practice in the lowlands, and often the timing of the launch is also crucial. So you can start very early, for example during those record flights in Sertau; if you start an hour or two later, it's already significantly easier, but to achieve a sense of success.
What would you call the biggest difficulty of flatland flying for a pilot coming from alpine flying?
The distance to the ground, where the... where
that
I'm thinking back now, for me it was difficult—at what altitude does it become dangerous to stall, and when are you actually at a safe level where you can keep flying well? Because in the mountains, you tend to fly closer to the terrain, and in the lowlands, you tend to fly higher and higher, but "high" is very relative. 200 meters above the ground is actually pretty low, isn't it? And in the mountains, 200 meters above the peaks is actually still okay, right? So, being able to judge that 600 to 800-meter altitude well...
where it gets tricky, drowning—I think that's a difficulty, yeah. That you just always have to be high enough, even if you feel like you're high,
I think you have to look at the altitude and go, "Hey, I'm really only 350 meters above the ground now, I need to do another one, or it's starting to get dangerous in terms of getting caught in the trees, let's just say."
What was your longest flight so far that you've done there in Brazil?
I think 290 kilometers, something like that in the northeast, yeah.
So, record-breaking flying isn't really your thing. So that was a personal record for you, but you wouldn't say, "Ah, these big ones, there has to be a four in front of the two zeros or whatever," it doesn't really appeal to you like that.
Yeah, so if I were at the start on that day, it would definitely appeal to me, but it's not like I orient my flying towards that. Personally, I'm an experience-oriented pilot and I want good experiences; that doesn't mean I don't go on cross-country flights, I really enjoy cross-country flying, but I just see what the day offers and I look at my horizon depending on the day, personally for myself, right? And the fact that I'd fly 500 kilometers is unlikely—I don't think I'd ever manage that—but on very good days, it'll probably go further than 300, but that's not really the goal; I don't aim to fly as far as possible, I just want to have the best experiences possible.
That's what flying is about for me—being with good people in beautiful areas, having good conditions, good flights, and then experiencing a good time together with people after the flight. That's what it's about for me. Whether I see a higher or a slightly lower mileage in XContest doesn't really matter that much, because it's also very dependent on the conditions, you know that yourself, right? It's not just about the skill in and of itself; of course, you need experience and you have to be a good pilot to fly far, but you also need good conditions.
What is it that still mainly makes flying so appealing to you after all these years?
I love flying. I love being up there, I love playing with this matter—air, thermals. That
gives me so much. I really love being in this environment. So every time I take off and I'm a few hundred meters above the ground, that's a dimension I really like. I can't even describe it, it's even better when I'm always flying somewhere different. If I were always at the same three launch sites, it probably wouldn't be as exciting, but since I can always fly somewhere else, it's very inspiring for me and it gives me so much energy and joy for life.
What is the last truly important thing you've learned about flying?
Patience. Patience and
Composure. Did you only just learn that?
No, but I think it's a constant learning process. I mean, I started at 16, or actually even earlier, on my father's farm. And at first, there were a lot of impatient and tense things in aviation. And after years, you always become more relaxed and patient, and also more composed. And finally, you have to say that the hobby of paragliding isn't always as serious as you see it yourself or intend it to be; rather, with composure, a lot of patience, and open eyes, you can experience extremely beautiful things while flying, I think.
What are your favorite moments on your travels?
Having great experiences with good people, on the ground and in the air—so also being together before or after flying—that's a really, really good thing for me and I like it. I like being with pilots and experiencing this passion together; that's actually the absolute best thing for me. That
So, paragliding is actually a community sport for you?
Yes, I'd say so. Of course not in the air, but even there, you never fly alone and then you see, there's Ramona, now we're flying together or
well, I have
a few pilot friends, I always fly with them in Central Switzerland, so we're together in the air too, but on the ground, at least at takeoff or at the landing field, you're really together and
sharing the joy or sharing the experiences, I think that's really cool.
Andy, thank you for your story about 30 years. I don't know how long Fly with Andy has been around exactly? I think
18 years, I think now, yeah. You've been flying for 30
years, and 18 of those as a Fly
with Andy. Now I've been flying for exactly 40 years. 40 already? So with
Do you count the dragons too?
Yes, exactly.
And then 36
of paragliders, if you have 86 of them after that. Yes, exactly. Yes,
Exactly. And it's still incredibly fun, I have to say.
Then let it be so.
How long have you been flying, Lucia?
Yeah, not quite that long yet, but I'm getting up to, oh, let me do the math real quick, 18.
Ah, great. So 18 years. You're also significantly younger than I probably am.
No, I started much later than you, if you said you started with the glider at 15, at least, or at 16. I was already 34 when I started paragliding. But once I got into it, it became such a passion that I now dedicate quite a lot of time to it.
Yeah, you can tell that you're a passionate paraglider. I think that's really cool, great.
Thanks. Andy, thanks again, and have a great time in Buenos Aires now, then Brazil soon, and yeah, lots of great experiences with all the flights and especially traveling with all the different groups coming this year.
Yes, thanks a lot for the exciting conversation, Lucia, and hopefully we'll see each other somewhere at a launch site, I'd be happy about that.
Yes, we've actually seen each other at a launch site before. I think it was around, I must say, 2006 or something, in Algodonales. I was there, I was there with a flight school back then, and you were there on a tour, and they were already saying, "Oh, that over there is Andy from Fly with Andy, he's always doing tours here too." So, I spoke with you briefly, you won't remember it anymore, but I do. You were already more famous than I was back then.
true. But now you're of course more famous than I am, and we'll definitely see each other again, somehow.
For sure. Andy, I wish you the best and I'll say see you soon.
Lucia, have a good time, see you later, bye, ciao, ciao.
As always, you can find the show notes for this podcast episode along with some further links in the paraglider blog Lu-Glidz. Lu-Glidz can be found online at www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. Lu-Glidz is spelled L U minus G L I D Z. Podz-Glidz, on the other hand, can be found everywhere there are podcasts. Subscribe to Podz-Glidz so you don't miss any episodes. And give the podcast a 5-star rating so that others will notice it too. Better yet, recommend the podcast in direct conversation with your Flickr friends. Of course, Podz-Glidz cannot survive on listening alone in the long run. Especially since I deliberately refrain from intrusive and influencing advertising here, just as I do in the Lu-Glidz blog. Instead, I'm counting on you as a listener and reader feeling like supporting both projects financially.
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