Acro isn't just these hardcore tumbling maneuvers; basically, acro is a lifestyle, and it's this playing with the glider. So, if I see someone who starts off very elegantly and has the glider under super fine control, and maybe touches the meadow with the wing, doing that "stabby" touch, for me, that's already acro flying. Once you've understood that acro flying is actually more than just hardcore tumbling and those stories and aggressive maneuvers, I think that's when acro arrives in our scene, and then everyone will realize that they're an acro pilot too. We're all basically already flying acro.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Markus Benedikt. And I am Lucian Haas.
In Switzerland, there's the Swiss Acro League, and in Austria, the Austrian Acro League. In both cases, the goal is to do aerobatics with acro. To promote paragliding and introduce pilots to this playful form of paragliding. And in Germany? The topic is treated rather like a stepchild. There isn't even a section for acro flying on the DHV website. That also has a legal background. In the German Aviation Ordinance, aerobatics with air sports equipment, including paragliders, is officially prohibited. In 2009, the DHV first defined more precisely in its flight operations regulations which flight conditions with a paraglider actually constitute aerobatics. 135 is the magic number there.
It's only when the pilot swings more than 135 degrees around the longitudinal or lateral axis that it's officially considered aerobatics. Heli, Fullstall, Spin, Cork, Sat, Ground Spiral, Brawhook, Tailslide, etc. All of these are technical flight maneuvers, which therefore do not fall under the aerobatics ban. And yet, you still see this in German airspace quite rarely. As if out of tradition, aerobatic flying is still discriminated against in Germany. But it doesn't have to stay that way. Markus Benedikt is acting as a sort of aerobatics lobbyist to change this situation. What he wants to achieve together with some fellow campaigners and what personally motivates him to do so, he tells us in this episode 102 of Podz-Glidz.
For a 36-year-old, it's not just about getting rid of the aerobatic ban. He wants to establish technical flying—meaning Acro and Freestyle—as a full-fledged discipline in the minds of pilots and in the work of the THV. #FlySafeFlyAcro When
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Markus, how do you become an Acro lobbyist?
That's a very good question. You become an Acro lobbyist as naturally as a virgin becomes a mother, so to speak. In my case, someone approached me and asked for help supporting thermals. And of course, as an old Acro lover, I said, sure, I'll definitely do it. And so I slowly grew into it last year.
Why does acro flying need a lobby in Germany?
Because it's not as established in Germany as it is in all the other countries. So, in fact, it's always completely incomprehensible to everyone how we handle the whole subject. And in Germany, it's actually the case that the discipline of Acro-flying has no platform at all. And that, of course, brings a lot of disadvantages in every direction. For example, regarding athlete development, regarding competition development, and also regarding getting into Acro-flying.
Probably not every listener will know the legal background, let's say. Just explain where the real problem lies legally for acro-flying in Germany.
I think it starts with the question of what acro-flying actually is. What is acro-flying? Exactly, it would be super important for me to maybe clear that up a bit. Because for everyone, acro-flying is something totally different. And when I started flying, for me, acro-flying meant doing really extreme maneuvers, tumbling, and all sorts of things you know of. And over time, it became clear to me—through the conversations I've had with people and also with the surveys I've done on the Instagram channels—that for most people, acro-flying is actually a kind of lifestyle. So acro-flying is the community I hang out with. Acro-flying is playing with the glider. Some call it freestyle flying. Some call it technical flying. So it's about pushing the mastery of the glider to the maximum, so to speak.
And being out there with good people and not always doing extreme things. And you're not allowed to do that in Germany? Or what's the point? Exactly, you can definitely do all of that in Germany, of course. And my predecessors also achieved a really, really great success in 2009 by basically legalizing acro-flying to some extent. To explain briefly: acro-flying or aerobatics is fundamentally prohibited for aviation equipment in Germany. That includes light aviation equipment, which we fall under. And the DHV, together with a working group, found a great solution and stated that aerobatics only begins at a bank angle or longitudinal tilt of 135 degrees for the pilot. Because of that, a huge number of maneuvers are possible.
But of course, aerobatics are still generally prohibited, which simply restricts it in many areas.
That means, just to be clear first. In Germany, the law—I think it's the Luftverkehrsverordnung or what's it called? LuftVO? Exactly, the Luftverkehrsverordnung—prohibits aerobatics with sporting aircraft. Why is that, actually?
That's a good question. I tried to research that. And the Luftverkehrsverordnung is very, very old. So I think it was written down sometime in 1969. It was already written like that back then. Then of course there were updates every now and then, and things are still being done to it. But "luchtvaartsportapparaten" doesn't just include us as paragliders, of course; it also includes trikes, model aircraft, and I don't know what else. So a huge number of other aviation sports devices are included there, besides us paragliders and hang gliders. Probably back in the 80s, they thought it wasn't advantageous to do aerobatics with such devices. Only the development continued, of course, especially with us. For paragliders, a huge amount has changed regarding the materials and the pilot skills.
And it just hasn't kept up with the times.
But now, in Germany, flight attitudes with a bank of 135 degrees around the lateral and longitudinal axes are basically defined as aerobatics. Anything below that is not aerobatics. That's how the DHV determined it. Why is he allowed to do that?
actually? In the FBO, of course, the DHV can say that certain things have to be defined. And that's how they defined what aerobatics are for paraglider pilots. They basically just said, well, let's say aerobatics are all flight maneuvers over 135 degrees. And at the time, they oriented themselves towards the FAI. And the FAI for aerobatic competitions says, if I remember correctly, that there are more points if the maneuver is higher than 135 degrees. And they basically just followed that. They followed this FAI 135-degree rule for more points for this maneuver. And they established it like that back then. Just under 15 years ago.
If you look at aerobatics today, which of the classic aerobatic maneuvers actually still fall under the category of "aerobatics" according to German law? Tumbling, actually, right? Exactly. Infinity tumbling. That's where you really say, I'm definitely higher than 135 degrees and I just tip over. Just really once around the transverse axis. So that's clearly aerobatics. But there's probably not much more than that. You can fly a SAT. A heli, nothing changes there, and stuff like that. So probably most aerobatic maneuvers are actually allowed as aerobatics in Germany.
That's exactly it. And that represents the exact discrepancy. So loops are forbidden. Tumblings are forbidden. Anything that goes over the glider is forbidden. Super high wing-overs. So when we often watch the tandem pilots at the landing field, when they fly beautiful high wing-overs with the passengers, that's all basically not allowed. And everything below that is allowed. So like you just said, spins, deep stalls, stalls, dynamics, everything's allowed, helis are allowed. For me, that carries this safety aspect, or that's where I get to this point about the safety aspect, namely that there's a huge gap. So I basically have the pilot who has done his training, who has now learned to fly actively through the DHV and is out there actively in the air. And then nothing happens for a very, very long time. There's nothing there.
I couldn't find anything. No concepts, no good guidance. All the way up to aerobatics, where I basically have to go over the glider first to actually be an aerobatics pilot. And I'd like to close that gap. Of course, there are SIV trainings that offer a lot and guide the pilots there. But that all always only takes place within the framework of an SIV training. So, if I imagine, for example, that I'm a good pilot, I have my license, I think I'm reasonably confident when flying actively, I know the DHV videos and all the instructions for them, and I go to an SIV training to practice my maneuvers—say, I start tackling the topic of stalls—and then my SIV training ends, I have no instructions at all, no framework given to me to continue practicing those stalls, for example, in my flight area over land or over water.
And if I flew my last stall last autumn or last summer, there's no guarantee—or the training effect is naturally so low—that I'll still have the skills this year to react properly if a glider gets into some kind of complication.
But what would actually change if you say ACRO has a better lobby in Germany, then I'd come out of SIV training and could still practice? I don't quite understand that.
First, I would say that ACRO flying isn't fundamentally about these extreme maneuvers; ACRO flying is this entire range between active flying and aerobatics. So that's a huge number of maneuvers. And if I naturally have a larger presence within the DHV—for example, if I have representatives within the DHV who look after the topic, if it's more established in our entire scene, so it's part of the game, part of our discipline—then I have the opportunity to, of course, expand on that with training, set up seminars, and simply provide information. For example, there are some great approaches there, just like there are XC seminars, or now in the winter, the DHV's video stories are held regularly, which are shown on Thursdays.
So I could, of course, also take up the topic of ACRO in the same way. And by that, I don't always mean showing someone how to fly a tumbling, but rather explaining to them, for example, what a box is, what happens inside the box, how do I set it correctly, what is a drift within a box, what are good rescue devices, how do I prepare myself, etc., etc. It's a huge spectrum. Where can I do this well? Which terrains are suitable? Which are not? What altitude do I need? Which don't? What do I do? How do I build my altitude management for such stories? That means, you would
I'm glad that the DHV is even considering ACRO at all, I'd say, and however they incorporate it into their curriculum, that people say there are things—because we officially have an aerobatics ban in Germany—that it has such an effect that even the things that are actually allowed aren't being done the way they could perhaps be done, because people just don't have it on their glider, so roughly.
That's exactly it. It just doesn't happen. I'm a flight instructor myself, and I've tried to see what's actually being taught within the training—what's being covered, what's in those classic training manuals—and what I find regarding this whole topic is just super, super little. No proper educational work is taking place, and that's exactly what we want to tackle. Our working title for our work was "The Forgotten Discipline." This means if the DHV puts more of a focus on technical flying, freestyle flying, or whatever you call it, general aerobatics,
then it naturally penetrates deeper, and I hope it penetrates deeper into the community and brings all the advantages we've talked about.
As a lobbyist, what would you like to achieve? Now, lobbyist in quotation marks, the aerobatic lobbyist you're being there. Do you just want to say, hey DHV, please take the aerobatic topic more seriously, regardless of whether there's still that 135-degree limit for aerobatics or something like that, or do you just want to say, hey DHV, definitely get rid of this limit so that this mental brake of the aerobatic ban doesn't exist at all anymore?
Exactly, the DHV's hands are tied a bit there too, because the DHV obviously can't just decide on the lifting of the aerobatic ban on its own. Regarding being an "acro-lobbyist," I don't see myself as that at all; I wasn't even sure for a very, very long time if I'm even an acro pilot, and I have no idea if I'm the ideal right person for this or if it wouldn't be better if we had a super good acro pilot who can actually show off what I can't. But I think what I'm quite good at is getting involved and advocating for a cause when I'm convinced of something. And what we want to do involves two strands, let's say, and one of those strands focuses on working out possibilities with the DHV on how we can lift this aerobatic ban at the legislative level,
so that it's softened or worked out in the LuftVO so that it no longer exists. And our first proposal to the DHV is to say that the aerobatic ban still exists, but in the specific case of paragliders and hang gliders, the designated authority is responsible for resolving that. And I think that's a very charming approach, because the German hang glider has already been delegated quite a few tasks. There's a paragraph for that which regulates it, etc. And thus, one would naturally exclude other aviation devices for which we can't decide at all, because I have no idea at all, can a Drake, for example, do aerobatics at all? I have no idea.
Thus, you could shift the competence to the one who has it, namely the DHV official. That's one thread. And the other thread is simply the shorter, naturally somewhat simpler one: the first step of saying, "Dear DHV, let's talk about this again after 15 years—what does the FBO actually say? And are these 135 degrees still the right solution?" Our approach is to say that this area of aerobatics is a variable area that behaves differently for every pilot. That means if I am an active pilot and I go beyond this active flying limit, I am moving into the realm of technical flying, freestyle flying, agro flying, and I am capable of the maneuver and master it because I am in training, because I have been instructed, etc., then it is no longer an aerobatic maneuver for me.
So, for example, a B-stall is just as much a break maneuver as a full stall. A B-stall isn't a normal flight state either, in the way that aviation talks about it. So, the lift is broken, I sink downwards. That poses dangers. Of course, I don't do that super low over the ground. I have to train for that. That means if I'm familiar with this maneuver, am in training, and have been instructed, then for me it's a standard maneuver that belongs to my repertoire and is a normal flight state. So, personally, I think the B-stall is quite good. I fly it very, very often to lose altitude quickly. It's easy. And with that, I'd say it doesn't surprise me. A Theo de Blick, for example, doesn't surprise a stall either. That means, from this perspective, one could define that as soon as I've been instructed in a maneuver and trained in a maneuver, that maneuver represents a normal flight state for me.
And I think that brings a huge advantage to both sides. Because on one hand, heli flying or full-stall flying isn't allowed per se; it's technically aerobatics. But once I've worked on the subject, it's no longer that. For me, it becomes a normal flight state. That means it brings more. Of course, it's not proven in any way by an exam or anything like that, but it naturally brings more personal responsibility and puts a bit of focus on, hey, prepare yourself properly for this topic. That can, of course, be supported with a lot, a lot of documentation, etc., and instructions around there. And the second thing is, for the experienced pilots who have mastered the subject, everything is open upwards. That means if I'm a good pilot and a video from Axel just came out yesterday, where he flies a super stall to infinity super low over the ground, with one rotation then barely recovering and landing, then probably tumbling flight in the air won't surprise him anymore either.
That means for him, it's more of a normal flight state, the way a normal flight state might be for a beginner. So that's the, the rough strategy. So strand one, softening the air regulations in cooperation with the DAV. That can only be done with him. And on a second level, the adjustment of the FBO, and then of course many other little things, like nothing about ACRO can be found on the DAV homepage. So if I look for information on the DAV homepage and see what disciplines actually exist, I find cross-country flying, I find hike and fly, I find ground handling and all sorts of things. But I find nothing about ACRO flying. That means, primarily, someone would need to take on the topic here and feed the DAV side with it a bit. What is it? What information is there? Et cetera, et cetera.
Exactly. And to put more focus on the topic.
What does the DAV say about this? Are you walking through open doors, or are you hitting a brick wall and having to knock pretty hard as a lobbyist just to get any kind of hearing?
My personal experience has been great, really great. I'm in very close contact with Robin Fries, and he is super open to the topic. He supports me completely. He helps me get the whole thing on the right track and regularly offers to discuss the issues. And he organizes getting the right people to the table, both with the DAV and, of course, internally within the DAV. But everything I hear from the outside is that I often hear that many have already dared to take this first step and many have already done it, but then it repeatedly fizzled out, they got shut down, or they didn't get the support. I'm just really curious to see what happens now. So, we plan to submit the application to the Commission to adjust the FBO very, very shortly, in March.
and to discuss the topic with a preliminary working group. I'm very curious to see how the DAV positions itself and works with us, as I personally also believe that this is partly the task of the DAV. So, if you look at it that way and check the DAV's guidelines, the DAV's mission statement regarding safety, access to airspace, and things like that, I just have the feeling that some pilots, some paraglider pilots, are not treated equally. They were simply forgotten. Specifically, it's these aerobatic pilots, called aerobatic pilots in the broader sense. And therefore, I naturally hope that the DAV recognizes that nothing has happened for 15 years and that it's time to think about it again, that material development has progressed, that pilot development has progressed, and that something needs to be done again.
And maybe not just every 15 years, but at a continuous interval. Even the law fits. The Luftfahrtgesetz was updated again in 2012 and things were changed because everything is moving forward.
Just to clarify the timeline here. You're planning with the managing director, Robin Fries from the DAV, to prepare something that can then be presented to the DAV commission. The commission is essentially the board, but slightly expanded, and they can decide what we actually want to do as the DAV. Exactly. And then this commission is supposed to decide, okay, we're going to try to give Akro some kind of space within the framework of the DAV.
So first, of course, the commission, the DAV, Robin Fries, and Björn have to be convinced that our idea makes sense and that the DAV supports it. And then this idea can be submitted to the commission together with the DAV. There are always various consultants from the business sector and so on involved. And that has simply shown itself. And it is the DAV's recommendation not to bring something like this to a fundamental decision in this meeting, but rather to have the whole topic evaluated in a working group together with other experts, such as Karl Slesek, who has a lot of experience in the field of security, to also put it in writing and reflect on the pros and cons of our proposal, and then have the commission decide on that proposal.
That would then take place in the summer.
That means, from that perspective, the commission might say in March, okay, we're setting up a working group or this task force, and please advise us or provide us with a draft, a corresponding proposal, on how we can proceed, which we can then vote on. And that should involve all the stakeholders and already include the legal background, having been checked legally, so that one can say, for example, what could be changed at the FBO in some way that would be possible in Germany.
That's exactly it. Ideally, they would give us a few assignments based on their vision of this situation. So, as you said, a lawyer would naturally have to take a look and be involved. An insurance company would have to be consulted. Experts from the DAV would have to be consulted, but also experts from the scene who might not have been heard at all today. And once all the information has been gathered and turned into something cohesive, a solid concept, then I think it can be presented to the commission for a decision.
How realistic do you think this is? I mean, do you think you'll be successful?
Yeah, otherwise I wouldn't do it. So definitely. And I don't want to settle for a no, I wouldn't actually be satisfied with a no, I wouldn't want to allow a no, but I would only want to allow an adjustment. So I think it's clear to everyone, and if you read the old protocols, it's clear to everyone that in the broadest sense, aerobatics are happening everywhere. You can't go to almost any flight mountain anymore, especially in Germany now, and of course also in Austria, where I can't find any form of aerobatic maneuvers. And that's it, the topic is there. It has actually really taken off. Everyone is flying it with that. If I
the Kriegel-Maurer on final approach, my perfect example of the Kriegel-Maurer final approach, the X-Alp, see, who flies a heli with his cross-country wing, that shows me somehow that it's arrived. I see influencers who have been flying for a year or two and are doing spins with their C-gliders because they enjoy it. That shows me the topic has somehow arrived and you can't look away anymore. So you need a solution in some form. And the solution we have now offers a lot of freedom, and I think that freedom shouldn't be forced into regulated channels through rules—not through laws or prohibitions or restrictions—but simply through measures to create more safety and more understanding of the whole topic, to bring it into regulated channels.
So today, it's actually like this: I go out and try it, just like I did back then with my buddy. We bought an Emily, went out, and just gave it a try. And it would be great if it didn't have to be like that—where there are no offers on the market—but I'd find it great if there were offers, which there are. There are intentions. Fly Chiemgau is very active there, wanting to offer courses similar to the Newcomer Challenge, saying: we won't explain maneuvers to you, but we'll explain the framework required to be able to train meaningful maneuvers at all, for example, after SIV training. And there, we can already talk about normal club handles or even a base-doll. So, how many people can actually regularly fly a base-doll or a full-doll with their glider?
That means it would be something like, I mean, the DRV has a performance training program where the corresponding flight instructors are further trained so they can conduct performance training, which sometimes includes base-dolls and other things, but with the approach of technical flying. But from your perspective, that could basically be expanded to say there's really something there—whether you call it freestyle or technical flying, maybe you shouldn't call it that because everyone would flinch immediately—but to say, hey, we'll show you a bit more of what else is possible so that you can play around with your glider in a more playful way.
Would that also be a goal? Exactly, for example, yes. So, the performance trainer is the next level up from the flight instructor. I have to be able to fly particularly fast, I have to be able to demonstrate above-average skill with the glider. And in any case, why shouldn't—why isn't there a program for the normal pilot? So why don't I have an option for the HV? The private ones offer it, of course. So the SIV training is way out in front there. They do a really, really great job in their, in their field. But nothing is happening around that. I think there's a lot of potential to expand that to say, through ACRO—and ACRO always triggers something immediately, which is a shame. I'd like to change that in the future, because ACRO is simply established.
ACRO is the term used in the scene with everyone, with anyone you talk to from abroad.
And ACRO is, as I said, not the hardcore tumbling maneuvers, but ACRO is everything. ACRO is playing with the glider, Ground Spirals, ACRO is Stubby-Touch. ACRO is for me, it's everything for me. ACRO are, are all the beautiful, fluid maneuvers that I can perform with the glider, except for just flying straight out,
left, right rolls, head nods. Now you, or you always like to say "we want to achieve this." Who is "we"? Is there something like, say, an organized ACRO scene that said, "Let's form a working group and push this forward," and then pushed you to say, "You should talk to the DHV"? Or who is "we" there? Is it actually a self-appointed group saying, "We're going to take this into our own hands"?
Exactly. We are basically Johannes Glatz from RG, who initially brought up the topic with me last year, saying we have to do something here and somehow pushed me to say, let's do something about that. We are Fly Chiemgau, Sigi and Dani, who are super, super successful German ACRO pilots, many people in Chiemgau fly, and they want to do this Newcomer Challenge at the ACRO level, for example. So, how do I prepare young pilots for that? There is a lecture series that is supposed to start at the Gerlitzen this year. The two of them are with the boat and a very, very good friend of mine from Austria, also a flight instructor, a candidate, Norbert Ebner, who is pushing the topic forward with me.
And then, of course, I hope—that was sort of my, that's my wish and my goal, naturally—that the community steps up and says, "Yeah, hey, I'm actually an ACRO pilot too. I fly around out there too. I also play around with the glider. I've even flown in a spin before." I'm also interested in having a bit of a community there. I'd be happy if there were offers and if we could somehow come together, and if the—if the DHV actively promotes these disciplines, or doesn't promote them, but actively establishes them in its program and simply tries to give the topic weight through posts or whatever, through its voice. Fly safe, fly ACRO, we defined that as a hashtag once.
That actually fundamentally contradicts the way pilots typically perceive it, maybe especially because of this aerobatic ban, where they think, "Oh, I'd better stay away from ACRO flying." Although, in many cases, it's probably just about helping them progress in terms of safety.
Totally. So in my survey, it also came out—or in my, yeah, my survey it also came out—that many said, hey, ACRO flying gives me total confidence when XC flying. So if I just know what my glider does in an extreme state, and an extreme state would be, for example, a one-sided, for example, a one-sided stall, and I know how I have to behave because I know what that looks like and I know what happens after, then of course when I'm XC flying, in which I would say,
a low-altitude flyer as a huge advantage when doing ACRO flying.
Let's shift the focus away from the legal situation and your role as a lobbyist for a bit, and just tell me, how did you actually get into paragliding, and especially into ACRO-flying?
I started my training in 2013 at a flight school in Chiemgau, and that's when I happened upon the film Something Between. Of course, I watched it a hundred thousand times and was totally fascinated by how elegant and aesthetic those ACRO pilots flew the glider back then, how they played in the terrain, at the Dune Pilat for example, or on the coast, etc. That totally fascinated me and it became clear to me somehow that I wanted to do that too, ACRO flying. And then, my path into flying was super, super difficult; I really struggled with heights, I really struggled with nausea and all sorts of stories, which is also why I... for a long time...
That fits with ACRO flying. Yes, exactly. From the basic concept. Totally. That's why it felt very, very far-fetched to me that I could ever do that in any form, but I still had it as a goal and I'm quite ambitious, so I thought, okay, maybe it'll work out somehow. And in 2018, after taking a very long break and having only maybe 20, 25 flights back in 2013, I started again in 2018 and did my A-license normally. I flew a lot and fought my way into the topic, worked my way into aviation, overcame my fear of heights starting with very, very short flights, and the glide paths were very close to the ground, moving towards increasingly longer and higher flights. So slowly, the nausea also went away with the training.
Actually, I still deal with it this year when I take a one or two-month break in the winter, but I'm getting it under control. I think it's a matter of getting used to it. That
is the big thing,
you say. Exactly, it's a matter of getting used to it. You can also get rid of height anxiety and nausea by flying a lot. You can, exactly. And a lot of willpower, in any case. When I got my license in 2018, the thought of getting the license and flying with the Akku immediately came up—that's, that's cool. What they do looks great, I want to do that too somehow. Then I remembered this movie, I pulled it out of the shelf again, watched it in 2018 with a friend, and we decided, okay, let's buy a glider. And then we... right after the training. Exactly, I think we even ordered it before that. It arrived afterwards.
and we were advised really well on that topic too, and it was repeatedly mentioned how careful we had to be, and that was clear to all of us, and we're not daredevils or anything like that at all, I have a very good sense of safety and, in my opinion, I do this in the safest framework possible, and then at some point this Emily arrived with us. We obviously didn't have any suitable harnesses yet. I flew with my light harness and then we really did a lot of gliders with the glider in super, super calm air in the evening and got used to this acro glider, worked our way up to it. Whether that was the right way today, I don't know at all. Maybe we would have been better off starting with a simpler glider back then, but that was our way at the time. We didn't know any better and that's how it started. Exactly, then we did safety training and tried to work our way further into the topic, to keep working on maneuver flying, to master more maneuvers.
We were especially excited about this full-stall maneuver back then. And in the safety training, they eventually told us that with the Emily, it won't work—I can't give you instructions on that, it's way too dynamic, it's way too fast, you'll just have to figure it out yourselves. Yeah, and then we did it, and since the next lakes are super far away for us and everything always involves a lot of effort, we practiced acro at high altitude as safely as possible over ground.
You live, if I see that correctly, near Aschaffenburg. That's more, I'd say, a slightly hilly landscape there. That's not exactly what you'd call the best environment for training some acro. Do you actually go paragliding with an acro paraglider in your area and do acro maneuvers there too?
No, unfortunately not at all. I don't fly around here at all, and that's another reason why it's hard for me to get into all this flying stuff, because of course I don't live right around the corner from a mountain and can just go for a quick flight in the evening; I actually always have to get in the car and head off. And drive to the mountains to do our thing there. One attempt was last year, or the year before, to start hang gliding, which I did and practiced until my solo flight. To get more into flying—flying is simply my passion. It's become a very, very big part of my life. And yeah, unfortunately, it's not possible here. And right now, I'm looking into maybe flying a bit at the vineyard here with a club this year. But for me, flying actually takes place in the mountains, and so I have to go to the mountains because there are no mountains here.
How often do you drive
you go to the mountains,
...to fly agro? Very often. So for me, the season basically starts again in February. Then I visit my friend in Salzburg. I'm with him then. I have the opportunity to work very flexibly from home. And then I just try to get my job done during the day, finish the tasks, so that I can get out as quickly as possible and go flying. And I'd say, I try not to commute by car, so that I rack up ultra-high mileage on the car. And the environment is also naturally important to me, since the environment is so heavily burdened, so I always drive down over longer periods of time. So I'm just down in the mountains for two or three weeks and then I come back home. And that's how I spend my summer until the beginning of October, by commuting to the mountains every two or three weeks.
What part does aerobatics play in your flights and your motivation to fly?
I'd say the biggest part. So, aerobatics is really important to me and I do a lot of it, especially since I don't have any talent for it; I need a lot of repetitions, a lot of practice, and many, many attempts to get the hang of it and master the maneuvers so securely that I can say, okay, I've reached a point where I can take the next step. It was difficult at the beginning just to figure out what the next step always is. Then, of course, you gain experience. So, I'd obviously already had my rescue releases and such. That sets you back a bit. Then, because of my flight instructor's training, I unfortunately had to put aerobatics a bit on the back burner, because I also had the ambition to master the practice and all the maneuvers required for Astra 1 and 1A.
And I was already practicing with A-gliders, flying fast eights, flying collapses, flying B-stalls, being able to do all the maneuvers properly. Then, of course, there's no agro-flying. Then last year I started a bit with cross-country flying, participated in a competition once just to get a taste of competition air. That also requires practice, of course. And then often the conditions just don't suit agro-flying. So I just fly whatever the conditions are currently right for. And when the conditions are right again, then I fly agro again.
Based on your own experience, would you say that this acro flying has also benefited your other types of flying?
Definitely. That was the key to it. Having the ability to fly properly in a full stall, to master it and know how to stop the glider when it's shooting forward very fast, no matter the conditions—that gives me an incredible amount of security while flying. So I just know that relatively little can surprise me. I was able to... I had these stories told to me, I had a collapse in the air that didn't impress me very much because, by that point, I'd had fewer of them, and you know how you have to react. But none of that ever really impressed me because I knew it was my mistake and I just have to say, I just have to train a bit more and then I'll get it, I'll get it under control better, and the skills from acro flying have already taken that to a completely different level.
And what you also mustn't forget is dealing with the rescue equipment. For me, my first rescue deployment was actually super unspectacular. It went through my head in a totally routine way. I had trained it on the ground. I had prepared for it. I had worked on the topic, and then it actually all went down exactly as I had imagined. I got to the handle perfectly, I deployed the rescue device. I pulled on the connecting line. I detached from the quick outs without any problems. I twisted myself and then tried to land this steerable rescue in decent terrain, which didn't work out because the valley wind was too strong. Box and drift underestimated. Also a learning experience from that. And those are all experiences that acro flying gives you. And I'm very happy about that.
I
I was at the SIV training at Gerlitzen once. There was a whole group of young acro pilots who were already flying their maneuvers pretty well. But I always found it interesting. They said they're afraid of flying in thermals. They find it too bumpy and stuff like that. Then I thought to myself, you guys do other things, you fly your helis and Dynamic Full Stalls and all that. But flying in thermals is too bumpy for you? Do you know anything like that?
No, not really. Because I fly so much. I can understand what they mean, because of course, when I fly so much—when I actually do a lot of runs—I do them in calm air, because thermal air naturally affects maneuver flying. So, in terms of the sequence, I have a takeoff, a relatively calm flight in a box that is also relatively calm, in calm conditions, on days that offer calm conditions. And then I can fly my maneuvers there, land again, and then it starts all over. Of course, I can imagine that if you're not super practiced or don't have much experience, or have less experience, that flying in thermals feels too bumpy. But actually, it's not like that for me, because I've always, always flown just as much in thermals as I have in akro.
Since we also flew in many areas where I didn't use a winch, but instead repeatedly gained altitude thermally to then fly my aerobatic maneuvers.
In your opinion, should every pilot do a bit of acro training? And if so, how would you say one should best approach soft acro flying? I mean...
In my definition of what aerobatics is, from what I've understood, aerobatics is—so, a very clear yes. And ideally through SIV training. So, if I have no idea about the subject at all and I know what it's about, then it's best for me to go into SIV training and slowly approach the topic of aerobatics. And there, aerobatics for someone might already be flying a spiral with a decent sink rate and exiting it well, or flying a French Pitch and catching the glider's forward surge properly. And of course, I do that. Now, briefly explain, what is a French Pitch? A French Pitch is when I let myself shoot out of a dynamic maneuver, basically without dissipating the glider's energy in proper paths, then I have a very high pendulum.
That means I swing very far forward, the glider comes very far back, and in return, the glider shoots very strongly forward and I have to, I train the glider to catch it in a state where it doesn't come too far in front of me and collapse. Exactly, I let myself shoot out forward from a dynamic maneuver. By doing that, I provoke a strongly shooting glider, and the training is to stop the glider at the right moment.
Which is also completely useful and sensible for thermals or something like that, because if you can do this extreme pitching, then you can probably do the semi-extreme pitching when thermal flying twice as well. I mean, controlling that.
That's exactly it, and that's the training effect. I can't afford to think for long in the moment when it happens out in the wild; I just have to be on the brake super fast. That's what agro flying taught me—that a very dynamic glider can come forward very, very quickly, and I just have to be on the brake very quickly and intensely, without thinking, without any delay, to catch the glider. Not so hard that I stall again, etc. And getting a feel for that is important for everyone, in my opinion. It can be important for everyone, and that's what I learn in SIV training, to know where the limit actually is.
You said earlier that you're also a flight instructor. Do you also work as a flight instructor or have
You just got your license? No, I also work as a flight instructor. Of course, I still have my main job, which is how I earn my money. I don't do that through flight instruction, but I do work as a flight instructor and I'm really motivated and working hard to move my life even more into aviation, so to move my work even more into aviation. And let's see what happens. So the big goal is to work more in the paragliding scene, in the industry, as a flight instructor, as a tandem pilot, as whatever. And flight instruction will definitely be a big part of that.
And as a lobbyist, do you want to be the first agro-flight instructor in Germany at some point?
become? I'm probably not the right person for that. I'm too bad at it. So there are definitely better people out there who can do it better than to work as an aerobatic flight instructor.
If you were to assess your aerobatic skills now, would what you do actually fall under the German definition of aerobatics?
98 percent of it isn't, but two percent of it is. So, I started flying rhythmic seats last year. That's a maneuver where I basically rock the glider in a seat rotation so that I slowly work my way up backwards, and I have to slowly work my way into the tumbling backwards over the glider. And I'd say I've often been in a state where I'm over those 135 degrees. And do you always only train over water, or do you do that over land too?
Both. So last year was the first time I got to know Galasee as a training area, which I liked very much because it simply offers incredible altitude. But in most cases, I train over land because the water training areas are just too far away for me. I come from Aschaffenburg, which is near Frankfurt up there. And from there, I naturally drove to Kössen or Bischlingen or somewhere else, like for example to Galasee or Gerlitzen. Isn't it so risky for you to train over land? No, not at all. So this agro over ground is a big topic for me, and I don't find it risky at all. If you look into the subject, I think both have their advantages and disadvantages.
And I couldn't say per se that agro over ground—so, acrobatic flying, training over ground—is more dangerous, especially since it corresponds to reality in 99% of cases. So, for me, the important factors are the altitude I have while training, the equipment I have with me during training, and the preparation I've done during the training. As I said, choosing the right box, choosing the right drift, having the right rescue gear for the terrain I'm training in, and having enough altitude to train properly and well. That's also a mental thing for me. I stop training very, very early and have good altitude management. So that I'm always able to look out and see how high I still am, to say, "Now I have to call it off, now it's too low," for example, exactly.
Water also poses many dangers. So, if I'm training over water without someone fixed in a boat below and without a proper life jacket, I would even say that training over water is more dangerous than training over ground.
Because there's just absolutely
no longer
you can drown if the harness basically pushes you underwater like that.
Yeah, totally. Well, the harness is what causes that. The protector, which normally protects us, provides buoyancy, which means it pushes the head underwater. If the vest is too small, it doesn't counteract that. Then I still have the problem that in most cases, I still have the glider hanging on me. Then the thermals can pull me down if it fills with water and there's maybe a small current. And the biggest problem, which I saw very, very vividly last year, is the wind and the rescue device. So the rescue device, when I go into the water, can of course collapse, but it usually stays inflated. And with relatively strong wind, which I have at the lake, for example at Lake Garda, because of the south wind that blows through there in the afternoon, the rescue device pulls me backwards, head down, across the water.
And I almost saw someone drown during SIV training last year if the boat hadn't been there fast enough. It comes down to just a few seconds. Because of that, I'd almost say I feel safer at a decent altitude with a proper rescue system if I know there's no boat intended for me down there, and stories like that over the water.
But you'd already say that if you start training even on smaller maneuvers, it would be great to have at least two rescuers in the end, so you'd say even if you do that with a normal harness, it's best to maybe add a front rescuer on the front, so that you have a backup.
...make it as safe as possible, that's the motto. So a very important point is simply that nothing must happen. That is always the primary premise for me. Nothing must happen. Now, that doesn't mean I have a weather trigger, it just means nothing can happen to me. That's the primary premise. And that's what I build everything on. I make it as safe as possible. That means it starts with the conditions. If I know it's too thermal, there are too many people in the air, the box is too small, I have too much water, wind down at the landing field or inside the box, the drift is too large, it's not guaranteed that I'll make it down there. I don't have the opportunity to build enough altitude or I don't have the right rescue equipment with me. I'm flying with a BASE system now. That means two rescue devices, two classic rescue devices, and a BASE system.
And exactly, that's how I try to make my training—my training—as safe as possible. And that should always be the motto.
You say, "base jumping at high altitude." To what altitude do you personally go where you say, "I dare to go for the base"? Or do I say, at altitude, I always abort everything because I say, that's simply my safety altitude that I always want to maintain?
I think 450 meters is the requirement. I don't know exactly right now. But I'd say from about 250 meters, I stop doing the stuff where I'm not 100 percent sure anymore. From then on, it's just minor things that I do below 250 meters. And I'd say from 150 meters, at the latest, I'm already preparing for landings.
You're married, you have two kids. How do you deal with that? I mean, what does your wife say about the risk of being a stunt pilot? Or does she not see it that way at all, but rather, oh, he's going flying again and having fun, and then he comes home relaxed and I'm happy about that?
Yeah, that's a very, very good question. And it also occupied my wife and me again when we had our daughter about nearly one, one and a half years ago, of course. But honestly, I just love flying, and flying isn't inherently dangerous for me. I mean, I think there are many, many things that are much more dangerous than flying. And for me, it's not this classic extreme sport like base jumping or whatever people sometimes have in their heads; I just make it safe. And that is always the top priority. And since this is my passion, I didn't want to and couldn't give it up. And everyone around me simply has to live with that, so to speak, just as I do. And the idea that this risk is life-threatening and I should stop now because I have a daughter, or two daughters, and a wife—I don't see it that way at all; rather, it's...
we make it as safe as possible and we all have fun with it. My wife flies too, so it's just part of it. Risk is part of life. Does she fly aggro? No, she prefers aggro. She's a glider in calm air and is totally happy with that and feels very comfortable there. We love flying tandem together. That's her world. But God knows what else is coming. So if someone had probably told me back then, with my nausea and my fear of heights and everything, and with all the things I had to struggle with to get into flying, into paragliding, that I would ever move even slightly under the glider, I would never have thought that possible either.
If you had such problems at the beginning, what was your motivation to keep at it anyway? I mean, if you're constantly feeling nauseous, you always think, maybe it's just not for me, even if I feel like going up for a flight. But what drove you to basically say, I want to get past this?
The fascination of flying, the perspective of flying, the feeling of flying—all that makes the passion for paragliding what it is—has always defied all obstacles and, in that case, has always outweighed them for me. So, for example, Meduno is almost my home mountain; you could say I fly there very, very often. And if I have a really great evening flight in Meduno with the sun on the mountain for half an hour, and I fly again very close to the terrain over the meadows and enjoy the sunset, the perspective, and the feeling of gliding along—ideally still with my buddy flying right next to me—then it's all just so overwhelming and so great that I don't have the words to describe it, and it far outweighs those difficulties.
A little look ahead. If you were to convince the DHV now, so also the commission, that we somehow have to move Agro forward again in Germany. When do you think the time will come where we can really say, maybe at least pro forma in the FBO or something, that the aerobatic ban has been lifted? And that the limitations on thinking have also been lifted and things can move forward again?
At the latest in the, or let's say, at the earliest in the second commission meeting. That one is, I believe, scheduled for June this summer. And if the commission comes to the conclusion this June that the proposal—the work that was developed by the working group—doesn't suit us yet and isn't anything proper, then we move forward, then we keep working on it. So I have no reason currently and see no cause to let up or stop working on it until we have achieved a solution that fits, that takes everyone into account, that takes the safety issues into account, and that of course also takes our sport into account in the form of Agro being part of what's happening out there with the glaciers. That means,
just as you stubbornly pushed through your nausea and fear of heights as your own flight lobbyist, saying "I want to do this," you'll manage to do the same in the Agro sector.
That's the goal. Exactly. That's what I've set out to do, so to speak. With my guys in the background, of course, supporting me. Definitely. Guys and
Girls. Alright, Markus. Then I wish you the best of luck with that. For now, with the further discussions at the DRV and the first commission meeting in early March. May the high-ranking officials of the DRV not throw too many hurdles in your path, and may something actually move forward. And I'm curious to see if, in the coming years, there might be a shift in attitude among the German flying community toward agro flying, aerobatics, freestyle flying, or maybe let's just call it technical flying, and if a different approach then emerges.
I think that's nice. The question is simply, what is Agro? And Agro isn't these hardcore tumbling maneuvers; basically, Agro is a lifestyle. It's this playing with the glider. So, if I see someone who takes off very elegantly and has the glider under super fine control, and maybe touches the meadow with the wing, doing that stubby touch, for me, that's already Agro flying. Once people understand that Agro flying is actually more than just those hardcore tumbling moves and those stories and those aggressive maneuvers, then I believe Agro has arrived in our scene. And then everyone will realize that they are an Agro pilot too. We're all basically already flying Agro.
That was episode 102 of Podz-Glidz, the Agro lobbyist with Markus Benedikt. If you want to learn more about the topics discussed here, you can find some further links in the show notes of the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz. My name is Lucian Haas. I am the producer of Podz-Glidz and the publisher of Lu-Glidz. Recently, I received a 100 euro donation from a pilot named Thomas. Thomas wrote: Hello Lucian, I am an enthusiastic fan of your podcast. I find every episode super exciting, informative, and entertaining. Please keep it up. I'm already looking forward to the next 100 episodes. Feedback like that is, of course, very nice and motivating for me.
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