I think the training should last longer. It should last at least six months and include at least one spring and one summer. And that would be really good for every pilot who knows what it's like in the spring with a line. And what it's like when there's a 30 or 25 knot valley wind today. I just think it's valuable if the student experiences that on the radio. And not for the first time when they have their license and then, oops, the big "aha" moments come. And I also think the pilots should have at least 80 to 100 flights. With a few thermals flights, where it's just the basic multiplication table and the ABCs with a bit of real-world experience.
I think that would be desirable.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Schmatz and Peter Schmid. And I'm Lucian Haas.
How long does it take to learn to paraglide safely? There are many who boast about having their pilot's license in their pocket after just 14 days. But once you've gained more experience over time and encountered the whims of the air and the hazards of launch and landing sites, you'll have to humbly admit it. Fast-track training in a flight factory doesn't really prepare you well. At first, there was a lot of "show" in that pilot's license. But there's also the other extreme. Hans-Peter Schmid, better known as Schmatz, runs the Cloud Seven flight school in Frutigen in the Bernese Oberland. It is one of the smallest flight schools in Switzerland, in terms of student numbers.
But when it comes to his training methods and successes, the reverence is great in many places. Among others, X-Alps athletes Patrick von Kähnel and Sepp Iniger learned their craft from Schmatz.
Anyone who manages to get into the flight school at Schmatz after a long waiting list doesn't get into the air at all for the first few months. First, there's only ground handling on the program—until it's perfect. And those who end up holding the license in their hands have often lived through at least three, if not four seasons of intensive flight instructor supervision and are, in a sense, in order. Schmatz has seen it all in every kind of flying weather. In this 123rd episode of Podz-Glidz, Schmatz talks about all of that, his special philosophy of paraglider training, his own naive beginnings, and the tendency, as a flight instructor, to become stricter over time. If you enjoy the podcast, please support my work on it as a patron.
You can find out how that works very easily on my Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the support page.
Hans-Peter, you're known in the Swiss aviation scene by the nickname Schmatz. You just mentioned it—where does it actually come from?
Whoa, a long time ago. It happened somewhere at the beginning of my school years. Maybe from the blacksmith. Maybe from eating too loudly. I have no idea. It just was. It's short and sweet, and ever since then...
I have it. And everyone says Schmatz to you? Actually, yes. Your parents too? No. So everyone.
Not my parents. Of course not.
You're also well-known in Switzerland, not just as Schmatz, but as the flight instructor who doesn't let his students get into the air for a long time at the beginning. Why? Why? Phew, yeah.
That's obvious. People who don't have the glider under control on the ground don't belong on the ridge. That's actually clear. And that's what everyone tells you,
who knows nothing about flying. Actually, many flight instructors should know about flying. But very few flight instructors do it that way. Instead, most of the ones I know might do introductory courses. And in an introductory course, a beginner—an absolute beginner—gets a glider, is allowed to deploy it three times, and if they can do that reasonably well, they can already do the first five-meter jump or something like that. You don't have that at all? I definitely have that.
don't. No. I mean, you can do an introductory course. That's no problem. But if you want to start your training, you'll have to practice ground handling on our practice mat for at least 30, 40 hours beforehand. 30, 40 hours is the minimum. So that takes two, three, four, five months,
Does it work like that? Just ground handling. But you have to have a lot of frustration tolerance if you actually want to become a pilot, right?
Exactly. But someone once told me that when a student came from the practice mat to the hangar to finally have his after-work beer, he was frustrated. It hadn't worked out very well. Then the guy, the pilot, told him, look, the time you're spending here at the flight school, other pilots spend it at the launch site, waiting for less or better wind. And that's a question of communication. Communication, you can tell the student that. And the vast majority understand that, because most people are intelligent. And those who don't understand, there are about here in the Bernese Oberland.
There are about 12, 14 flight schools. So you have the choice of where you want to do your training, where you want to do it, and how you want to approach it.
Are there people who started with you and then dropped out at some point because they said, no, this is going too slowly for me, I'm always just standing on the ground at the gliding school and I see my friends who are elsewhere or something, they've been up in the air for a long time already? That does happen. But it's actually
rare. You know, before we even get on the mat, there's a phone call. And even there, the wheels start to turn. Is this something for the pilot or not? Not our training system. I tell him, you have to have your time. Gliding is an elite sport for me. Because if you make three mistakes together, I don't have to tell you anything as a self-pilot. But if you make three mistakes in a row, then it gets tricky. And that's why I tell the pilot at the Fliegenlöhnenwilheit, you have to have one day off a week, at least one day a week.
And if you have a partner, you have to get them on board. They have to support you, or even your family. So you really, really need a lot of time. And there are already pilots on the phone who say, then it's probably not for me. And the others who check it out, they notice immediately that a 20 km/h wind does something to you if you don't have it under control. And they realize right away that it might still make sense to spend a long time on the Scholle.
trained until it sticks. On the Scholle, it means it's really a specific area. It's a flat field where, at the beginning, you only practice with your flight students. Yeah, there
it only flies if you accelerate it perfectly, right into the gust; then it flies for a few meters, but it's flat, yeah.
And when you start with those, you start by saying, okay, there's wind here. Maybe the first exercise with the glider already takes place while turned into the wind, so you say, okay, in this wind you can only practice by turning into the glider and playing with it, so you basically start with a backward start exercise?
Yeah, that's how it is, because what do you want to do with a 10 or 20-knot wind? You don't have to start forward. No, everything goes backward, and only later do you turn out once he's got the meadow basics down.
So, the forward start is the second start, which you actually only learn later?
Yes, yes, you learn it that way, ground handling comes later. Yes, yes, you learn it that way, ground handling comes later. So, it's not about the wind, but it's trained mainly during the basic course, on the practice wing. You know the forward start, it's always difficult with heavy old gliders. And that's why, no, the main - and defining - feature of ground handling is clearly the backward start. Of course, then there's the turning, the acceleration phase, running curves,
the whole thing
program, I mean.
And that, you're saying, takes three, four, five months until you actually go to the mountain with the people for the first time? I'd say 20,
30, 40 hours. I've also had people who had 60 hours. It depends; I have relatively long waiting times at the flight school. I do two basic courses a year and take on a maximum of 18 pilots a year. So, the school is full. And at the moment, the first year is booked up. So, the bag is closed for 2024. Maybe there's a spot because someone drops out or has a skiing accident in the winter, I don't know. But yeah, basically, you have waiting periods with me.
Okay. So that means 18 flight students per year? Yes. And then you're really saying, that's when I close the bag? Yes, clearly. Why only 18? I mean, you could also say 20, two more, I earn a bit more, I can somehow still squeeze those two in. Yes, I have
I've done that too. But usually, one or another person checks out, maybe checks out again. But as a rule, I have about 15, 16 check rides a year.
The 16 prevented students who come out of my school. And that is hard and fast. It's also funny to learn, I've had more in the past too. I had four basic courses, 25 students. That was eventually too much. Because, you know, if you want to really get 20 students or 18 students in ground handling up to speed, that's a monstrous amount of effort. That is a lot, a lot of work. And you don't just have talented ones there, you also have students who maybe aren't doing so well. And they take longer, and that just requires patience. And at some point, the capacity is simply reached.
Capacity limit.
Have you ever had students during that initial ground handling phase where you realized they were basically dyslexic with movement or something, and you'd say, "Look, this isn't going to work. You'd better give up; I don't think aviation is for you."
Yes, I've thought that often.
Said, but never? Not that clearly. I always say, I can't just test out cracks. There are always pilots who just don't have a natural knack for it. But I've had pilots who didn't let up with so much diligence and joy. They trained and trained and enjoyed it. For them, the journey was the goal. And they also became good, safe pilots. Their learning curve was just slower, less steep, but steady. And that's fine. But what you do have are students who eventually realize, hey, I've been at this for 40 hours now.
Others have been at it for 5 hours and are already massively better than I am. And when people like that realize it, they figure it out themselves. They notice. It's not going to happen. It usually just happens on its own. But what does happen is that students don't take the practice hand seriously. Because at the end of ground handling, we have an exam we conduct. A sequence of various exercises. And that's what you have to be able to do. And if not, then you keep practicing.
What is part of this exam? This isn't an official SAV exam, but something you've set yourself. So, what do you need to have in your skills portfolio to satisfy Schmatz? You have to be able to [handle] the glider
be able to start back cleanly. Then you have to kite to the left, kite to the right. That's maybe 20 meters, 30 meters, 20 meters left, 20 meters right. Then turn away. Then go into the acceleration phase. Then run curves to the left. Run curves to the right. Stabilize again. Then turn back in again.
Then, in the spinnaker setup, spinnaker the glider back to the starting point.
Release the glider. That's the test.
The glider isn't allowed to hit the ground in between, is it? No. Is it allowed to do that already?
No, of course not. So if it falls on the ground, you start over. Okay.
You don't believe me. Yes,
True. I'm just thinking, I mean, you do need, you basically have to have exam-worthy wind so that it actually goes somewhat reasonably. But maybe you have, I don't know what your local conditions are like. Maybe you always have a valley wind that normally sets in where you can say, from 1 p.m. onwards we can definitely do this exam, because the wind speeds are usually sufficient by then.
Yes, that's how it is. We are really blessed here in Fruttigen with a very reliable valley wind system. In spring, summer, and early autumn, it starts at noon and stops sometime around 5, 6, or 7 o'clock. That's why I can do it. But the test isn't fixed for any specific time; rather, the student comes over and says, "You know, Matze, I'm ready now. Shall we?" Then he can. And he can try ten times, I don't care. Because our practice mat is right next to the hangar. Yes, I'm there forever. I'm working, I'm packing the emergency glider, I'm selling beer, whatever. Yes, I'm mostly there, especially in the spring.
And then I can do that.
And then you keep one eye out while packing the emergency glider to see what the other person is doing. Or does that really mean, okay, I'll go out onto the field and stand right in front of him and watch very closely how he completes his respective course there?
Yeah, I'm there for that, yeah, of course. But otherwise... At the very beginning, I coach the students for two hours, two or three times. And then he slowly but surely gets the long line. He can then start practicing really well on his own. He gets feedback on the old exercises, gets new exercises, and so he gets better and better. And the students, most of them really like how they notice they're getting better.
So, really this step-by-step approach and having small successes again and again. Yes.
Is there a specific part of this test you're doing, like a certain move or something, where you'd say that's basically the hardest part? Where people are most likely to fail or where most people still fail and say, okay, I have to try that again? Well, that always depends on the intro.
and so on. You know, even with the return launch, you can still do that a few times, but clean kiting with the glider or clean spin-locking with the glider, that's not easy. And one or another will fail at that, it can be anywhere. Or during the slalom run, you know, we don't do that with just any light gliders, we do that with old clunkers. So Alpha 3, Alpha 4, heavy gliders, and they don't tolerate as many mistakes as a Pi, for example, or a Double Skin or something like that. So yeah, there are many ways to fail.
That's also good. But do you do that deliberately, giving people the old, heavy gliders so that they basically have to learn with heavy gear? Because if they master it with those, then they can definitely master a Pi.
Yes, that's how it is. The Pi is a great glider and the light gliders are great too, and it all fits perfectly. But if we're honest, you don't learn how to launch properly with those things. You can just sort of run in, the glider is up there and it flies. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's where it starts.
That means the improvement of the gliders is actually something negative for training. The students are automatically released at a lower level, so to speak, because they learned with the better gliders.
I feel like I have to be careful with what I say now, I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but that's our philosophy. I don't train with light gliders either. Not fundamentally? Not fundamentally. Because I believe you have to learn how to start properly. And that's where I struggle. Up until now, I don't think I've ever had a light glider in the school. I had an Ozone Mode once, Joma, but otherwise I've trained with completely normal Alphas.
In the past, the gliders also had these—I don't know, with the Alphas, I'm not sure when they switched to rods—but they still had those thick Müller flaps in the front. Yeah. But also other profiles that, on one hand, don't stand so well from the start, but in the end, don't actually climb very well on their own either. Not just because of the weight, but also because of the profile shape, whatever the manufacturers changed there. Would you say that people who learn with such a heavy glider have to readjust afterwards if they suddenly get a light one that launches so much easier? Like, do you notice they suddenly have difficulties with it because they actually have to adjust to having too much pull from the heavy glider? Or are they used to the heavy glider, where they say, "I have to give it a proper impulse," and then suddenly the other gliders just shoot into the sky?
Yeah, that can be the case, but you tell the students, "Now, put in about a quarter of the energy and it'll work." I think it's better that way than the other around. If you learned with a soft glider and stay with that one, it's fine, no problem. But then when you switch, to an ENB. On an ENB or HeiB or something, it suddenly becomes harder, I think. And that's why, if someone can launch a heavy glider, then they can launch a glider. If they know the light one just needs a bit more feel and less energy.
When you go into high-altitude training and actually take the students to the mountain to fly down, do you have any specific features that set you apart from other flight schools? From your philosophy perspective?
Yeah, I don't know what philosophies other flight schools have. My main philosophy is actually that I don't just want to teach my students the basics; I want them to learn how to fly as well as possible. So that they can actually leave the protected workshop after the basics and enter flight life with a good feeling. That's the philosophy. Mhm. It often works, but sometimes it doesn't. Because there are always people who do very well, and for others, things really don't progress that quickly. But that is fundamentally the philosophy.
I want to train my students so well that they stick with the sport afterwards and continue to enrich our scene here in Flutigen. I think that's a main thing. And of course, that includes all the high-wind launches. All the thermals flying, high-wind landings,
that's just part of it. What about thermals? How do you teach, or how do you get your students to learn thermal flying? Yes, in
for that, I think the most important thing is that you have a pro at the launch site.
At the launch site, we're usually there on weekends in most cases during spring, summer, and early autumn with two flight instructors. One is down below, and the other—Franz, who's been doing this for 22 years—is up top, or vice versa. So we have a pro up there who, first of all, knows the students, and second, isn't doing this for the first time. The one up top looks out for start checks, clean launches, and the instructions for thermals. And the one down below is responsible for taking the car down and then, for example, checking the maneuvers after the thermals and watching the landing.
So I think if you want the students to learn thermal flying, you need a pro at the launch site. One person who has half a year's experience isn't enough.
And he basically radios them into the thermals, right?
Yes, of course. He radios them in, he knows where the thermal is, he knows what the conditions are like. And then it goes pretty quickly, zip, zap, zip, zap. They learn that fast.
With ground handling, you can watch what someone else is doing very closely. So technically, like which lines they grab and exactly how much brake they pulled and stuff like that. Now, with thermals flying, you can just fly circles, that's possible. But it has something to do with feeling, also with a gut feeling for it. Like, where maybe the real center of the thermals is and things like that.
How can we support students there so that they progress faster? Yes,
by making sure you're in a thermals area where the student isn't too far away.
So in our main flying mountains, the Meckeseren, the centers in Adelboten, and at the Grimmer in Frutigen. These are launch sites where the thermal is very close to the launch site. And there, the flight instructor can see exactly how much brake is in play, how much weight shift is involved. Once you have a bit of experience, you actually have a pretty good handle on that. I sometimes compare it to model flying. So the flight instructor is up at the launch site watching and has his radio in his hand, but it's actually like remote control. And in the first half hour, you coach the student a lot, and then it immediately goes quite well, quite independently.
And then it's no longer one-on-one supervision. Instead, there are suddenly 3, 4, 5 of them in the air, and that actually goes very
...fast and very well. Do you also sometimes use the two-seater for training? Like telling them, "Let's go fly together, and I'll just show you a few things from the back seat as an instructor, how I do it." Because a student can learn an enormous amount very quickly just by watching from there in the air, of course.
Yes, it's a very good method. Let's say. But actually, only if I notice that a student has hit a snag somewhere. Like they're stuck and not making any progress. Or if the student just wants it—hey, I'm Mats, or hey, Franz, I want to do a tandem flight with you now. Then in the vast majority of cases, we can make that happen, yes. But basically, it's not actually предусмотреn in our training concept. But we're happy to do it if we see that it can help a student move forward, then we do it.
How were you as a student? How did you actually end up with your training concept? Did you experience it that way yourself? I mean, tell me about your first flights—did you also have a flight instructor who told you, "Now go out on the mat for 20 hours first and show me how to complete a course here"?
Well, the training, January '90. Yeah, no, it was just how it was. You'd go, "Hello," and meet up at the restaurant. Coffee was drunk there. Back then, people were still doing snorting.
Flight instructor in Paris. Yeah, then you'd go to your favorite slope and for two days you'd do the hell flights. But that was very self-taught. The flight instructor, he wasn't right, he wasn't really there, you had to find him elsewhere. That was 1990, you can't compare that anymore. It wouldn't work like that today. The flight instructor wasn't at the site at the beginning. He was busy with other things. He just signed off on the flights at the end.
And you learned everything on your own, really self-taught? Yes,
we had no clue. Then we tried it out with the gliders that had a glide ratio of 1 to 3. It wasn't that hard to hit the circle and fly the maneuver. But the real learning came after that. They had to teach us everything themselves because thermals flying wasn't really a thing yet. There are two cracks here in Fruttigen who started three years earlier. They're already a bit thermically frozen. And we, we taught ourselves everything. No one came along to say, it goes like this and that. Even all the relaunching, we had no clue. That wasn't a topic back then. You had to learn that the hard way.
Were there any defining experiences, frustrations, or moments during that time? Or things from which you drew the motivation to say, "When I become a flight instructor, I'll do it differently"? Yes, the flight instructor, he was with me...
still far, far, far away. I didn't give it a thought. But as for defining experiences, I was once in Interlaken with a few old colleagues. And we went to the Axalp. And up at the Axalp, Super Soaring, there were really two or three cracks there. It was no problem for them. And I couldn't take off. Super Soaring conditions, I couldn't take off. And that—they had to come pick me up at the end. That was first of all embarrassing and second, frustrating.
What do you mean by "pick up"? Who had to pick you up?
Yes, they came up by car because it was getting dark in the evening. And at that time, it just fell like scales before my eyes. I have no idea. That was one experience. And the other experience, also with Franz, was together at the dune. The Pila dune in '91 or '92, I don't remember exactly. We started forward on the steep dune. We had no idea. And there were one, two, three pilots who managed it perfectly. And you were just left in awe, unable to get over it. Those are the two experiences that were simply key experiences. And since then, we've always been active.
The fruity scene, most of them, whenever it hasn't flown or after flying, we are always offered to trade.
And when I had the school, it became clear to me that this is the way to go, in my opinion.
But that's also just a shared thing, if you say the whole Frutigen scene is a philosophy that basically grew together. That you somehow experienced, okay, we need to do more ground handling. Then we meet up for ground handling too. And it's fun together and you really make progress with it.
Yeah, it sort of worked out that way. There are flight areas where there's basically not much wind. There's some lift, and then it's good. And if there's a lot of wind in those flight areas, then it's better not to fly. But in Frutigen, it's normal at various launch sites in the afternoon to have a 20-knot lift. So there, you don't have a choice. And we didn't have to make appointments for groundhandling because we had the hangar. That's our base. The school is right next to it. Yeah, you were automatically there. Either drinking beer or doing groundhandling. Or both.
What happened to the paragliding geek from that early period, who then taught himself all the ground handling to become a good ground handler and so on—what happened to that paragliding geek, the flight instructor geek?
What happened to that paragliding nut from the early days, who then taught himself all the ground handling and became a good ground handler and so on—what happened to that paragliding nut becoming a flight instructor nut? ...become? Well, I used to work at the post office in my first life and moved up quite a bit there. And at some point, when I reached the top, I knew it couldn't be. I hit a bit of a low point and eventually thought to myself, hey, I have to do something. So I signed up for the flight instructor training, did it, got my license as a flight instructor, and two or three days later, I wrote my resignation.
And then I went on vacation, and that's when the idea for the flight school actually grew. Yeah, and then we started. At the beginning, I wasn't really the ground handling expert. But it grew because every time a student couldn't take off, or had some kind of luck with the takeoff because it flipped again, I just realized, hey, I need to have a much better grip on this. I need to watch much more closely. And that's how it grew, and over the last 20 years, I've actually become stricter with ground handling every year. And I'm still getting stricter.
I try to.
Because it's simply the be-all and end-all if a student can take off with a smile on their face. If they don't have that "take-off stress," so to speak. And if they can experience the takeoff as a beautiful moment, as one of the most beautiful moments. Then the whole thing takes on a different flight. They are completely differently focused on their flight task. On their goal, on what they want to do during this flight. As if their adrenaline tank is already full after the takeoff.
And I came to this realization over time. And that's why I just don't let it slide in this regard. That is to say, learning to fly is 80% learning to take off? No, I don't want to put it like that. But if you approach the takeoff relaxed, then you approach the flight differently. I think you can focus differently.
You've also been a pilot for a long time. If you've had a shitty start and you're just shaking, the flight is ruined. For me, it would be like that.
It's the same for me. Or it takes a long time before I start having fun again. Now, you're still flying. I live near Bonn. There, we only ever have 150-meter hills. If you've had a bad start, you'll be back on the ground in three minutes at the latest. Because you're no longer focusing on that one thermal you might be able to circle. Instead, if something goes wrong, that's it. We really have to fly here in a way where you fly out and you only have one chance to get into that one thermal, and you have to be able to do it immediately. Many people who are starting will experience a lot of frustration here because, of course, it's also this switch from having just started to being immediately in flight mode, and not needing three minutes first to come down from the stress of the start and then be able to fly properly or fly freely, and immediately say, "Here it goes up, I'm turning in immediately and I'm already automatically sitting right in the harness."
So it's not just about the seating position, but about the mental position—I'm sitting right in the harness and I'm the master of the situation. That just takes some time, or rather, if you take too long for that, you don't stand a chance here. That's what I mean. The
A student, he goes to his exam maneuvers, he has a task, two full circles that he has to do for the exam. If he wants to train that, he needs a clear head. He can't hang out at the back after his takeoff and still be burning off adrenaline. I don't think that works.
Looking back, would you say you were a good flight instructor from the very beginning? Being self-critical?
No, of course not. I only have things today that I'm sure I can improve. But I think every flight instructor, every pilot grows. With every bit of experience they gain, they grow.
We had our time, we had no clue. Our flight instructor training was focused on the theoretical. And if someone theoretically passed that exam, the written flight instructor exam,
the rest wasn't an issue. In my career as a flight instructor, as an aspirant, I had to show five internship days. Internship days where I was exploited as a free start leader. That was it. And then a two-day pedagogy training. Then you had the flight instructor license. License to kill.
And then learning by doing. And accordingly, things went down fast at the beginning. During this time, the gliders arrived, which suddenly behaved like stable steep spirals. We had no idea. And it went step by step.
Looking back, what was the most frustrating experience you had during that time?
Frustrating? What do you mean by frustrating? The one that caused you frustration. Where you maybe started to doubt whether becoming a flight instructor was the right decision.
I'd actually never had that.
There are moments where a student is just in deep shit. And then you try to get them out of that shit. Of course.
Those moments do happen. But in that moment, you're functioning and you don't have time to wonder if being a flight instructor was the right job for you or if you'd rather not be one anymore. But after those situations are handled, I've never felt like it wasn't the right thing for me. I still love it.
How much do you still get up in the air yourself besides your work as a flight instructor? Or is that not really that important to you anymore?
It's actually still important to me. Although in the spring, summer, and autumn, I still get some flying in. Because there are two of us flight instructors, we take turns. One brings the plane down, the other lets the students out, and then goes up into the air as well. But those aren't five-hour flights anymore. You fly for half an hour, an hour, and then you land. In the winter, on the other hand, when it's no longer possible in the flooded lowlands because you can't get up there and the mountain lifts are overused in Adelboden and in the Lenk, that's when I do a lot of flying. That's sort of my time.
But basically, you won't become a flight instructor if you want to be in the air for as much as three hours every day.
Do you come to fly a lot in the winter because you're traveling, or do you also fly in Switzerland and do your winter flights there? Yes, we provide instruction
of course here. We have a great flight area in Adelboden, the Zentren, and in the Linke at Mettstand. That's great. There's a lot to do with the wind there. And as soon as the trees are clear of snow, the thermals work. Winter is very, very pleasant for me for training. The student learns how to properly handle the wind during takeoff. Real wind sometimes.
But he falls softer in the snow.
Yes, you have a bit more of a safety margin, that's how it is. Exactly. And then there's the weak thermals. Beaming a student in a five-meter bomb, in a three-meter bomb, up on the radio—that's no problem for the flight instructor, and for the student, it's a question of courage, not skill. But in winter, where the thermals are weak, that's when it gets really tough. And a student who centers a weak thermal, takes it, and cranks it optimally—that's a matter of feeling, and of course, that's stuff that helps you in strong thermals too. You really know how it works. So, winter is a very, very important time for me.
Do you fly with your students too? I mean, are you in the same thermal together, coaching them by circling at the same altitude as them? Or does that one-on-one in-flight coaching not exist?
Yes, basically, I personally feel more comfortable coaching the students from the launch site in the thermals. Then there are usually two, three, four, or five in the air and you can keep an eye on each of them. When I'm in the air myself, there are students with me who are ready for their exams. They have 40, 50, 60
flight hours already, they're close to getting their license and I don't have to tell them to brake the glider more or less anymore, instead I say, okay, now we're going there. And then those are small cross-country flights where you leave one spa, have a glide section, and fly to the next spa. So cross-country flights in the small sense. That's what I fly with. Especially in winter. Sometimes here in Fruttigen during the week, if there aren't many students. But basically, if you have ten students, you can't be flying around in the air yourself. You have to be smart. What appeals
what still appeals to you about paragliding today? After all these years?
The simplicity.
It's so simple. It's so carefree. It is
Freedom, even if it sounds like a cliché.
Yes, there are still so many obstacles we've encountered in paragliding. And now, also in instruction. It's so nice to get better along with the students.
If you look at the general trends you're observing, if you could change something about paraglider training in general, maybe even in what's prescribed by the SAV or something like that, what would that be?
Well, I have to give the SAV a lot of credit. A lot has happened in the last four, five, or six years.
By now, the reverse takeoff has been introduced. The expert is allowed to demand it. Various other test maneuvers have been added as well. Next year, there will be more innovations. So, in my opinion, the association is on a very, very good path. Of course, I could do more ground handling before the hut—I really emphasize that because I know it's good for the pilot. I would weigh it even more, though I'm also aware that not every flight school has the possibility.
Yes, not everyone has a local valley wind system, that doesn't work. Everyone has to deal with the farmers and landowners, and we're lucky to have what we have—a big thanks to our farmers here in Frutigen, who are so understanding. Not every flight school has that, and that's probably why you can't weigh ground handling more heavily. But basically, what I want is for the training—the trend in training—to move away from the fact that the courses are moving too quickly.
Nowadays, it's also normal to get your license after 3 or 4 months; I know people who started in November and by May—no, not May, by March, they have their license. 45 flights, 50 winter flights, and then they have the license in March. If I told you that and you had a child learning to fly, would you send them through that kind of training? I don't think so.
So, my training was also completed. I did a basic course in the German low mountain ranges for a week, then spent a week in South Tyrol doing altitude training, and after those two weeks of training, I had my license. That was already 18, 19 years ago.
and it was certainly also the case that I have to say, I wasn't a pilot afterwards and had to learn a lot myself, learning by doing, and I'm also someone who can motivate myself well and who really, really likes doing ground handling and other things again and again. But if someone had told me back then, you have to put in 4 months now or something, it also always depends on what setting you're in. I think if you live in your area and say, I can just quickly
to the launch site, drive to the hangar, pull out my glider, and then head off again on my bike—that's different from living somewhere else and saying I have to drive there for a few hours first. That only happens on weekends, and then the wind has to be right or something, and then of course it's a very frustrating affair, because you have so many breaks between the individual lessons that you don't make very good progress or move as quickly.
progress can be made because you're constantly forced to take these breaks in between. Yeah, but exactly,
I have the WM association at ESSA, I'm there again and again, I also have contact with the Stocker-Bähnchen from time to time and that's a good exchange between the flight instructors and such, and I told them too, I think the training should last longer, it should last at least 6 months and include at least one spring and one summer. I would find that desirable and it would be really good for every pilot who knows what it's like in the spring with a valley wind and what it's like when there's a 30 or 25 valley wind today, I just find that valuable if the student experiences that at the site and not for the first time when they have their license and then, oops.
the big "aha" moments happen.
I think he should change that, and I also think the pilot should have at least 80 to 100 flights with a few flights in thermals, where they at least have the basics and the ABCs down. I think that's desirable.
What about meteorology?
What should a flight student be able to do? Or how do you even do that over there? Before every
For every flight day, we do a relatively detailed weather briefing. That takes at least 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, depending on the situation. We have a screen there and we look at the weather situation. And there are so many things you can look at with them today. My weather reports, those are basics, that's clear, you have those. But I also think that the student should have an idea of the Emagran and an idea of the altitude map, so that they can see and interpret, oh, watch out, it's extremely mobile today. Or watch out, the altitude map is a factor today. The student should be able to do such things.
actually have a basic grasp of it. I'm not saying that all my students have it, but I at least give them the opportunity to get better at it in this way, with this topic. There are still some who just let themselves be spoon-fed during the briefing, and if you ask them something, not much comes out sometimes. One guy once told me, half-jokingly, when I said, "Hey, tell me something about the weather today," he said he wasn't paying me 2,000 francs for the training just so he could tell me the weather.
Half-jokingly, of course. But yeah, I think a student should at least have a decent grasp of isobars and height maps.
Do you also do weather debriefings where you say, okay, today everyone was up in the air, you all felt what the air was doing, so how it felt. Now let's look at the weather map again and try to put that together. Why was it the way we experienced it today? That would be a point where I'd say, well, I would have wanted that in my flight school; there was a weather briefing done in the morning, but it was rarely looked at again directly after such a flight day to say, let's look again, what was actually happening? You could also maybe look at real wind measurements from wind stations, what information could you have drawn from that, and then look back afterwards and say, the feeling I had, I'm now putting that together with the information, so that next time you can maybe say in advance, based on that information, what kind of feeling I'll probably have in the air.
Yes, it's always difficult after flying, because one student might check out after the second flight, while the others still do a third or fourth. It's always hard to get all the students together for the debriefing. But if there were special weather phenomena, then the debriefing can happen briefly at the landing field after flying. However, that's sometimes quite personal. So, maybe four of them are still flying thermals, while the other two or three have crashed, then you talk together at the landing field. Or if there were special things, you'll quickly look at an EMA again, so that by three o'clock in the afternoon, for example, you have the current state of the atmosphere.
And it's not a forecast, it's the reality. And I always ask the students to look at the EMAgram again after the flight day. That's important so that you can also make a forecast, so that you can assess it. Yes, does the EMAgram show it like this or like that? Depending on the conditions, you might belong more on the northeast slope rather than the south slope. And that also has to do with debriefing and analyzing the weather situation after the flight. I find that important, but we don't always do it; we just do it when it was extraordinary, yeah.
You said earlier that you're actually a very strict flight instructor. Probably also strict about which pilots you say are actually ready for the exam. I assume you basically make a preliminary selection and say you're ready or not yet. Would you say that, in the end, you only release people from your flight school who you would ultimately say are good pilots? Would
desirable. It would be great if it were always like that.
There were two or three pilots during my 22 years at Cloud7 where I didn't give the signature for the exam. Where I had to say, you want an exam now, I'm not giving you the okay, you're not ready.
That happened, and they then checked out and kept flying otherwise, I don't know. But most pilots,
you know, if you reach the SAV exam today, that's already not bad. But I recommend to people, it's about the exam, if they can really launch backwards cleanly, launch cleanly in a 20-knot wind, fly thermals without stress,
be able to land reasonably well in a 25 km/h valley wind, then I think they're ready for the exam. And otherwise, yeah,
At some point you give them the okay, but they have to... okay, maybe they can't fly thermals well, but then you give them the okay, but at the very least they have to be safe out there, otherwise I'm not signing off on it.
What is a good pilot for you, in general terms? What are the...
what do you look for?
the firm?
It's the one who has the most fun. I overheard someone say that once on our son's calendar; it was his motto, and I thought it was a great saying. Because someone who's having fun—they don't have to be named Chrigel or Paddle or Sepp—but if someone simply feels safe, then they're having fun. And a confident pilot is a lovely thing. Regardless, they don't have to be able to fly 100 kilometers, but they just have to feel safe in their undertaking, in their flight, and then they're there.
Are there pilots you would say, based on your observations, who are having fun but aren't flying safely in your view? Or does safety determine the fun, or is it the other way around? I mean, I see pilots at...
...sneezing, that's a very steep launch site of ours. I see pilots mainly in the winter, when the weather forecast, the wind forecast, reports weak winds and then more wind is expected, and then literally everyone is at the launch site. Then I see pilots who don't really have fun during the launch. What it looks like in the air sometimes doesn't look bad at all in the air, but at least during the launch. It's pure stress, not even pure panic.
And I dare to doubt whether they're having any fun.
Maybe in terms of flying, perhaps. One can only hope, but at the very least, I can judge the takeoff, and that's still difficult.
Now you've been a flight instructor for more than 20 years. Has anything changed in that time, not just in terms of equipment, but regarding the human element—the students you get? Whether it's their attitude, their athleticism, or anything else they bring with them to you?
Yes, I think something has changed. When I started in 2002,
most of the students back then had already been exposed to aviation or mountaineering or ice climbing, so they were generally athletic, mountain-oriented people.
And nowadays you have people—it's not a bad thing to say—but today, anyone can come to flying. It's actually become a mass sport, I think; that has changed. Today, the...
55-year-olds who have never done a moment of sports, who have been to the mountains little to never, suddenly show up or call and say they want to start flying. And that was less of a thing in the past, I think. When I started in the 90s, it was almost exclusively all
mountain passes, let's say. Those were
all the people who had a strong psyche and spent a lot of time in the mountains.
That has changed. Has it also changed something about how people behave in the air? Or what goals they pursue? I mean, what
I'm sure I'll notice that today, with modern aircraft. The possibilities you have today. It
I think there are people out there on Hammer Days who have their phones and their little devices fully loaded up and they fly to
the device's specifications. I think they plan that beforehand, they know exactly where the boundaries are, and if it's a high-stakes day, they just go for it. And it used to be different, it didn't exist back then. You'd maybe go more step by step. I think in the past, but nowadays, if someone has the balls, they can actually do it with relatively little experience.
go for it. Whether that's always a good thing,
I doubt that.
Maybe pilots will suddenly end up in places where they don't belong at all. At three in the afternoon.
But maybe it's already happened before. I don't know.
Have you ever completely overestimated yourself in your aviation career and maneuvered yourself into a situation where you thought, oh shit, how do I get out of this?
Yes, of course.
Who doesn't? It's always ended luckily, yeah. What would you call or describe as your biggest lucky escape of a mistake in your career?
Yeah, back in the day when you didn't have a clue, all those valley wind training situations. There were times when there was just way too much air, and you needed a lot of air to stay injury-free. Or some kind of botched wingover that then changed with some hang-ups and stuff like that.
Weather-wise, of course, cold fronts, and back in the day, when you were still hot-blooded and every minute you weren't flying felt like it was burning under your fingernails, you'd sometimes push it. You'd rather fly for an extra hour than go down an hour early. That kind of stuff. But every pilot has that.
You do too, everyone does.
Definitely. Does that still happen to you sometimes today? Or are you so desensitized—maybe that's the wrong word, but so settled—that you say, I can feel it under my fingernails, the cold front is coming, I'm going to land now because I don't want to put myself through what's about to happen here in an hour.
I think that's right, yeah. So, I can now say at the launch site,
even when I'm up there with the students, now you have to try to weigh things up carefully. What's the best-case scenario for this flight? What could happen with this flight? What's the worst-case scenario that could happen? Once you weigh all that up a bit, the decision to maybe not fly comes relatively easily. And that's how it is too, when the thunderstorms are building up and the cold front starts to push in.
That doesn't really happen to me anymore today, less and less.
What are you particularly proud of?
I'm proud that we were actually able to establish the flight school in Frutigen out of nothing, where people are willing to trade 30, 40 hours of gray time. And accept a waiting period of half a year to a year until they can finally start. They can start trading immediately until they can begin their training. I'm actually proud of that, yeah.
Do you know of any other flight school or flight instructor who has sort of adopted your system and said, "Schmatz is right about how he does it. I'm going to do it that way now too"?
I think a few of them want to do it.
But as I mentioned at the beginning, you also simply need the infrastructure for that.
You need understanding farmers, you need valley wind systems, you need a lot of time, and you also need the balls to say, hey, my school is full. I can't take you in anymore. To be able to say no sometimes and say, hey, I'm big enough, I can't take any more. I don't want any more. And that's often where flight schools fail, because of course it's always tempting to just take one more student and another student and another student.
But our concept, I think, would probably appeal to most flight instructors if you can celebrate it like that, let's say, on the ship. There's nothing against that.
But you just have to be able to see it through. But for most people, I think it fails because of, perhaps, the location,
...economic factors, you also have to be able to afford it. Let's say, no, no, I can't take your group of three anymore. You can in a year, but I also understand that the others will just keep looking elsewhere.
But otherwise, I don't know of any flight school that celebrates it as much as we do. But yeah, I'm in my Hangar - Fruttigen bubble. I don't really check what's going on out there.
...work. If you could no longer fly and teach, what would you do then?
Yeah, I would...
look for a new hobby.
It would have to have something to do with movement, with good food, with skiing. Something like that, but yeah, it's still difficult. The question hasn't really come up for me yet. Maybe, I'd probably still fly again at some point.
Well, Schmatz. Continuing to fly, that's a nice ending. The podcast can also kind of keep going. The people who come to your flight school can still experience you there and see how you drill them into really good starters with your ground handling training. I think it's a very, very great concept. As you say, you certainly need to have the conditions and especially the time of the people who can put in the effort and keep coming back. But ultimately, it's something you'd only wish for—that you actually come out of a training session and say, I'm a confident pilot in the sense that I really dare to go out in 20-knot winds and immediately feel in my element. Thanks for your story.
That was
episode number 123 of Podz-Glidz with Hans-Peter Schmid, known as Schmatz. In the show notes for this episode on the paragliding blog Lu-Glidz, there are further links. If you enjoyed the episode, then please subscribe to Podz-Glidz. You can do that anywhere podcasts are available. If you also leave a positive rating there, you're helping to make Podz-Glidz even better known. Or just tell your flying friends about it. Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz are completely free of paid advertising. I do this out of conviction and in the interest of independence. Nevertheless, a lot of professional work and, of course, costs are involved in these offerings. To finance them, I rely on the concept of voluntary support.
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Until next time. Not from heaven. Ciao.