When flying, the mental aspect is a major factor because we are in this third dimension, air isn't tangible, and humans are made with two feet—so we don't have wings. We're supposed to be on the ground, and when we enter this third dimension, we are actually challenged more in all our ways, and thus we also have to learn to adapt or position ourselves correctly in this environment. To move in a way that we don't just fall from the sky.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Cindy Schalbetter. And I'm Lucian Haas. Gliders for particularly lightweight female and male pilots have their own peculiarities. For one, it's not that easy to get them through certification, and not just because of their often more dynamic reactions. One difficulty is also that there are only a few trained test pilots who fall into the required weight range. The Swiss pilot Cindy Schalbetter worked for many years as a test pilot for XXS glider sizes. She started the training for this only one year after receiving her license. How she came to do this and what she experienced along the way, she tells us in this podcast episode 135 of Podz-Glidz.
The intensive testing led Cindy to become increasingly involved with the mental side of flying. Today, the 38-year-old works as a mental coach, among other things. We talk about how important it is to engage mentally and with all our senses with flying and our equipment. Other topics include mental injuries in flying, the problem and the grace of simply escaping everyday life in the air, and the formative experience of a knockout in the thermals. At this point, I would like to thank everyone who financially supports my work on Podz-Glidz and Blue Glides. Without your contributions, I would have had to give up the podcast and blog a long time ago.
If you also want these channels to continue, then take a look at the Support page on the Gleitschirm-Blog Blue Glides.
Cindy, when was the last time you did an official test flight with a paraglider?
That was quite a while ago now. I'd say I officially stopped about eight years ago, and after that, I did one or two more flights. Maybe two years later. Yeah, maybe six years ago.
What do you still remember about it?
Wow, actually not much, because I did it so, so often and unless there was something unusual with a piece of equipment, I can't remember it anymore. To be honest, I don't remember it that clearly anymore.
Why did you stop working as a test pilot?
Actually, not entirely voluntarily. I injured my knee, tore my ACL while skiing, and had to undergo surgery. During that rehabilitation period, I just focused on my recovery and mentally drifted off a bit, thinking I'd never recover from it. Because I was quite young when I was testing. And it wasn't like that. I eventually went back, but not for very long, maybe for one or two years.
Tell me, how did you end up becoming a test pilot in the first place? You were relatively young, and as far as I know, you had only had your license for about a year.
Yes, that's right. I grew up in Viersche and I always saw these paragliders. I was in the classroom. It was so colorful and I wanted to get out there too, and eventually I asked the flight school if it would be possible for small people to learn to fly as well. And Xandi from Viersch, from the flight school, told me, no problem, there is equipment for that. I started flying and was a pretty motivated student. I always had to use the brake. And then a colleague of mine somehow saw the ad out of nowhere and just reached out to me. And then he signed me up and told me afterwards, hey, I've set something up for you and you can still say no, but just go there.
They're looking for test pilots in your weight range. And I was like, yeah, how am I supposed to do that? I've only been flying for a year. But I thought, I'll just go there now. And it turned out well, yeah.
So, you didn't actually apply yourself, but someone else sort of pushed you there, something like that. The impulse came from the outside.
Right, it was a colleague. And I flew with him a lot. And he always had these funny ideas. He's always just messing around. I didn't take it seriously at first. But he actually did it.
Yeah, that's basically how it was set up for me.
But I mean, one thing is being pushed. The other thing is accepting it. What irritated you about it? Were you the kind of daredevil pilot who said, "Oh, test pilot, maybe I can handle that"? What was it? Or what was it exactly?
Not at all. I felt completely at one with the flying. I didn't actually put myself in danger consciously. Or maybe it looked that way from the outside. I never had any major problems, even during the entire testing phase. I never crashed during the testing. That was also a phenomenon.
I felt comfortable in the air. I just had different requirements than other pilots at the flight school. And I had to be instructed differently, I'd say, because I simply wanted to feel flying differently than that standard program. And then down in Villeneuve, at the test center, I could train with the best pilots in the world based on my experience. They are wonderful, talented test pilots. They can do things I never saw before. And it fascinated me to grow and learn from these really good pilots who also fly a lot.
How do you imagine that kind of training? I mean, what do you learn as a test pilot when you say you're flying with the best pilots in the world, some of whom also work as test pilots? What do they show you that you might not get shown at all in a normal flight school?
What do they show me? What else? What I get shown is actually the thing of how to handle something you have in the learning process. How do you train something out if you've, for example, trained in a bad posture? How do I deal with it when I just make mistakes? The little tricks, the technical stuff, the whole mindset, a lot of experience they brought with them. Some of them had flown competitions. Some were flight instructors themselves. Some had built prototypes themselves and so on. So they had a really broad range of knowledge regarding the whole sport.
And so you pick out the knowledge you need from all these different individuals. I had a huge platform where I could just take out everything I was allowed to use for my weight class and the further development in this area.
Now, I'll just say, some people might see it as an impolite question, but what do you actually weigh when you say "in your weight range," and that was especially for the small gliders you were supposed to test.
My weight when I went testing, without clothes on, was 45 kilograms.
Oh wow.
Yeah, I'm small, I'm just under 61 and I'm relatively slight. And later on, I allowed a bit more weight. I laid out a bit more weight when I trained more, even after the cruciate ligament surgery, because I had to build muscle. And then suddenly, it was already a bit too tight. I mean, I was almost too heavy, and then I thought, you have to let the one who's even lighter come first and fly the way they want to. So I didn't have many people who could take the job away from me, even if I had three kilos more. So I just kept my weight because I felt comfortable with it. And I would never have lost weight for something like that, that's complete madness. Because I always needed weight to be able to fly faster.
So for me, it was rather tedious because I always had to carry extra weight when I went on cross-country flights and so on. Or if I wanted to do aerobatics, because I always had water with me.
There isn't much of that light weight with these people. And then there's the thing that they have to be trained, and then maybe also these processes. Yes, they have to learn to fly, which they require for the tests.
Now, it's often said that small gliders behave a bit differently for such light pilots, or sometimes become a bit more aggressive or something, compared to the same gliders in slightly larger sizes. Did you perceive that yourself as well?
Yes, absolutely. It's also said that sizes like Medium or Smaller Medium often fly better than a Small glider. And here, it was actually the case that most small glider companies simply couldn't scale down those small gliders. They had to redesign them. That's the thing. You make a series, you make a design, you make the sizes S, M, L, XL maybe. And you'd like to have an XS, you might still be able to scale that down. But a double XS just doesn't work somehow. Not physically anymore. And then they often had to go through the effort of recalculating the whole thing, redesigning it.
And that also cost money. But then came this evolution of mountaineering gliders, which was actually my stroke of luck. They were made smaller, lighter, and especially faster, which I saw as the biggest advantage because small gliders often simply didn't have a fast trim. And if we're light and flying small gliders, then... a bit of speed too. And that was the best thing that actually happened in this evolution, that they built fast gliders. Even now, there are many small gliders that, in my eyes, should actually be faster. But not all manufacturers can handle that. That's a bit of the thing. Small gliders definitely have different characters than other gliders.
Depending on how you're loaded, you have different collapse points, as I said, different stall points. They behave differently. For example, with a small glider, I can turn much tighter and flatter in the thermals, but I have to fly fast. I've often turned my friends with the high-performance gliders from the inside in the thermals. So, in the thermals, if I have a nice tube, I go through the inside and they have to fly around me, and then they just freak out. But those are things I've learned by flying with these small wings—that you can push them relatively flat... but only if they have a fast trim, otherwise it gets dangerous. You can also stall them, but it's
it's never happened to me in that sense.
But isn't a fast trim for such small gliders also a bit riskier or a bit more dangerous on the other side? Don't the gliders react more aggressively, for example, if they collapse?
Yes, they can collapse, but actually, when I fly fast, I have more internal pressure in the wing, right? So it provides a certain stability. And when a collapse happens, it's an immediate, strong collapse, but also a fast one. I don't know if that's ever happened to you, maybe when you're doing a valley crossing and you go full speed and you have a paraglider with a Schalknuss and high internal pressure, and then the front collapses. But it's usually back again so explosively fast. And that's similar behavior. Actually, it happens abruptly and quickly. But it might bang loudly.
That means you can get a big scare, but if you know that's what it was, then that's what it was. So, as a test pilot, you might also know that gliders react so simply or open up so quickly or something like that. But someone who might not know that, if it rustles and bangs really loudly up there once and you get shaken up, that can also scare someone. Maybe especially someone who says, a light pilot, a light pilot, who is finished with training or after training, has such gliders for the first time, maybe some of the faster ones, and then experiences something like that, it could also be that they say, oh, that's dangerous. Maybe that would also brake people like that in a way.
Yes, I think to counteract these fears or uncertainties, it certainly makes sense to study your gear a bit. What kind of gear do I have? In what weight range, with what loading? At what loading does the gear fly best and do I feel most comfortable? And in my view, that's a prerequisite when you buy a paraglider: that you deal with where the limits are, where you feel comfortable with that gear. And sometimes I've added weight, then taken it off again. These are ranges of 1 to 2 kilograms that make my glider, the one I'm flying at the moment, aggressive or, on the other hand, manageable. And so, over the years, I learn to adapt to my gear and load it in a way that works for me.
But that naturally requires you to engage with it.
These are really such small margins where you'd say one or two kilos are enough to turn a manageable glider into an aggressive one. So, for example, if I'm flying a glider that's manageable, but let's say—not to really carry ballast, but because I say I want to take water because I want something to drink—I just pack two liters of water bags in the back. Could it already be the case that my glider reacts differently?
Exactly. It's possible that your glider reacts differently. If you're taking one and a half liters of water, of course, you have to be somewhere within your range. That's why these gliders have their weight limits. If you overload it by one kilo, usually nothing happens. You just have to be aware that it can react differently. And it also depends on the situation you're in. Are you flying in calm air? If I'm flying some freestyle or acrobatics maneuvers in calm air, I like to be well-loaded. But if I somehow overload my glider with 10 kilograms and I have an HNB glider, and then gusts or some Föhn conditions come in... well, something like that could
get pretty hot. Of course, it always depends on where you are and under what natural conditions you're flying. And that's also a question I keep asking myself. In the thermals, the whole thing always looks more dynamic.
Now you said you don't do test flights anymore. But actually, especially when pilots like you with your weight range are so in demand as test pilots, it's actually a great market. You could also say, hey guys, if you want to develop beautiful XXS gliders, ask me, I'll help you with that.
Yeah, it's not that I'm not allowed to fly anymore. I still get things every now and then that I can test. But usually, it's just for an opinion. And that's enough for me too, because the training effort is enormous. And I've also evolved in life. And I'm still flying. I never stopped flying. I just can't maintain that level of training anymore. And I also notice that the time is up. I did this very actively for eight years. I trained a lot. My life consisted of flying, or mostly of it. And especially then. I basically only flew. And there are other things in life that eventually become important too.
Exactly. It's like, we don't have pilots like Sander anymore. That's how it is. But I think the biggest period of development is over. There are always new gliders coming out. But ten years ago, it was really like this paraglider scene or these light gliders were developing. And back then, it was important to have people. And of course, people were looking. So I'm making an appeal to the world: if you're light, if you want to fly, if you enjoy flying, then do it. But it takes a lot, a lot of time and commitment and training. But it was a very, very exciting time. And I learned a great deal for my flying life.
You also work as a mental coach today, among other things. What does working as a test pilot have to do with you becoming a mental coach?
That's actually the trigger. I was so young and I had to learn a bit how to channel my energy, to concentrate completely during the time I was flying. We had one minute of flight time from takeoff to the box where I tested. So, I was in Vilnius over Lake Geneva, we had the test house. And in that minute, I knew I had time for myself. And that minute allowed me a lot to gather myself and prepare for what was coming. I had my program, I flew out there and I started telling myself during that time that I wasn't just 100 percent concentrated, but I always said I was 150 percent concentrated on what I was doing right now.
Because I knew I couldn't afford too many mistakes, because testing is a serious matter. It's like having an SIV training every week, right? You're actually always being challenged. And I set myself up in that minute, said my mantra, and basically always did that. And that gave me a lot of security, it focused me, and I was also able to fly with very few mistakes. And I think that's also something that just defined me a bit during that time. And that's how I discovered this whole mental game and what my head says. What my head does to me and what I'm capable of doing when I train it.
How can you train the mental side of flying?
You can train it like you do for everything else in life. It doesn't necessarily have to be just flying. In flying, the mental aspect is a huge part because we are in this third dimension. Air isn't tangible and humans are made with two feet, so we don't have wings. We're supposed to be on the ground. And when we enter this third dimension, we are actually challenged more with all our senses. And thus, we also have to learn to adapt or move correctly in this environment so that we don't just fall from the sky.
I think a big part of a pilot's mental work is becoming aware of how to minimize distractions and how to adapt.
That he can be out there with the lowest possible risk at any given moment, so that he can enjoy it.
What does it mean mentally to minimize distractions? What do I have to do in my head to minimize a distraction?
All the mental work doesn't start in the air. It's something you integrate into your life. That's where it starts. In paragliding, for example, it starts with dealing with your gear, your seat, your reserve parachute, your paraglider. How do I pack my things? What do I take with me? How do I set myself up? How do I feel comfortable? When do I eat? When do I drink? You have to learn to organize yourself so that your whole system comes into harmony. And doing all that just takes the stress away once you've done your seven things. When you go on a cross-country flight, you also do your flight planning, your weather preparation, and again just before. And all these things, all of that is mental training. Making yourself aware of where you are.
What's happening in an hour? What's happening in five minutes? Where could I fly into? What's coming my way? The whole thing is a complex, and we all do it. Maybe not with the same level of awareness in every area.
So, flight preparation—would you also say that's a form of mental training?
Absolutely, completely. Everything you deal with helps you get into a sense of security. We're leaving the ground, we can't forget that. It's not a given that we can fly. And then we're going out with a cloth, we don't have an engine.
It's simply about becoming aware of the whole medium we're moving in. And the air, it carries us, yes. But it's simply fluid. And we should also stay fluid, that we adapt to the systems and learn to see the falls, so that we can minimize the risk.
One thing is the flight preparation, so a phase before the flight where you might already be dealing with the flying and doing all that in your head, having routines and stuff. Are there any specific questions, procedures,
Standards, so mentally speaking, that are still important during the flight, that you basically train, or should train during the flight?
Are you talking about cross-country flying or in general?
Regardless of the type of flying. So, where you say, while flying, you could say I'm practicing my motor skills or something, I'm doing aerobatics, where it's a lot about motor skills and all the various procedures. But are there mental things that can also be trained in flight, or mental questions one should occupy oneself with during flight, or things one could try out? You mentioned earlier that when flying out into the box, you had a mantra, something you said to yourself or something. So, are there such things that pilots should also regularly train in a certain way while in the air?
Yes, exactly the same as on the ground, but in the air. When I do my five-point check, I have a checklist that I go through. Then I leave this ground, head out, and I have to deal with the next topic, which might be the thermals or where the air is rising, where the sun is shining, where the other pilots are, where the birds are, how the ridge is pulling, and so on. And all that observing can also have a procedure, like a checklist. We have that now; I'm learning that much more in my flight training than when I have to check my cockpit. And then my eyes are constantly scanning. So I have a visual procedure that actually monitors what's going on.
I observe and tell myself, okay, check. And then I keep observing, and the next thing comes up. And I repeat my routine, which basically ensures that I don't fly into people, don't fly into trees, and so on.
I orient myself within it and I always do it the same way. I look at where the others are. I take a look at my Vario. My Vario might still have some acoustics, so I perceive a lot that can somehow be categorized. But we do that very unconsciously. You could also do it consciously by making a checklist. Or many pilots have a small note on their tracker or Vario meter to remind themselves to follow these three things. Or something that gives them strength so they can keep their orientation or focus. For example, I have it on my gloves; I had a time when I was just a bit uncomfortable in the air, so I put stickers on my gloves with a heart and a saying.
And I'd occasionally let go of my hands and catch the sun and look at my gloves in the sun. That made me consciously aware of where I was and that I was having fun, and that I could fly towards the sun, for example. And those are all these little things, the things that help you remember where you are and that you're actually enjoying it. Even if we have fears, we can use these little helpers to actually remind ourselves that we want to keep going or what the goal is.
Do pilots take sufficient care of this mental component?
I think a lot of it happens unconsciously, because those who love to fly make sure they feel good. So, many pilots aren't far off from doing nothing. Most do something, but rather unconsciously. But there is a huge, huge number of people who fly who are perhaps far too focused on the material things, on what the paraglider can do, on what the seat provides, on all the technical aspects. Where I then sometimes tell myself, hey, get back to the ground, go into the wind and go play. Somehow, you're not completely at one with your gear.
And the foundation of that actually lies in ground handling. That is the be-all and end-all of our sport. Everyone always thinks being in the air is everything, but mastering the gear on the ground is actually the greatest safety we can build.
That means ground handling is also, in a way, a form of mental training, because I'm also building a relationship and trust, or whatever, with my glider, or perhaps I can build a connection with it that some people who are in the air and might be struggling with fears or something else that they don't have on the ground, can use to build a kind of real relationship with their glider.
We can have fears everywhere. Whether we leave the ground or stay on it. Fear is a natural emotion or a natural feeling, I'll put it that way for now. Here, it's also about—it doesn't matter where in life you stand, fly, or hover. We were given five senses. Humans came to Earth with these five senses so that they could feel. And these senses, if we can couple them and feel, and couple that with a good experience, then we can feel safety, well-being, and we can get better at it. And that is what makes ground handling so important. I'm learning to feel my gear.
But I'm also learning to hear it. I'm learning to see it. And on the ground, I see it from a different perspective. Sometimes, when I'm turned around, I see it backwards, I see it forwards, I see it from the side. And when I'm flying, I'm always looking ahead or upwards. Unless you're doing twisted flights. But that's not really the trend with straight flights yet. Exactly, that's how we can sharpen our senses. Our training on the ground helps us to actually couple these senses in peace. The more senses I can couple, the more I reflect, the better intuition I can build. So intuition is, for example, also something you can certainly generate by reflecting on what you just did.
And this reflection couples their new neural connection again and reinforces it. And then it gets stored again. And the more connections we make to something, the better my brain couples in these situations. And I know what to do.
That's why ground handling is so important. That's why safety courses are so important. I always have to know where my glider is. Otherwise, I never need it. It's there for something, it's made to be used.
And so that people can come up with ideas on how to manage themselves in these situations, it also has to be practiced. Otherwise, in extreme cases, people usually freeze when the stress outweighs everything. And then there are people who don't react. And then the person interferes. And then they fall without putting their hands on the glider. Maybe they wouldn't have had the opportunity either. But you can practice that.
And that is important.
When flying, we can have an accident and get physically injured. Maybe just a little something on a twisted foot, like a sprain or something. Or the spine is completely shattered or whatever. Bad stories. Can we also get mentally injured?
Absolutely.
You can be mentally injured, which will certainly have an impact on your spiritual level as well.
We're talking about trauma. Everyone is always a bit afraid of the word trauma. The word trauma actually means a wound. Having a wound. And wounds are everywhere. We can have wounds in the skin. We can have wounds in the mental realm, in the physical realm, but also in the soul. Spiritual wounds arise through
severe traumas or through things that have accumulated in life, which we perhaps haven't processed or weren't able to process. And we carry those through life until we eventually notice, wow, something is not right with me. And then we might take action. There are physical traumas, which can usually be repaired and fixed by our colleagues in medicine in some way.
Or with rehabilitation, therapy, and so on. And then there are these mental traumas or, yeah, real blockages that are anchored in our memory as events. And when it comes to this level, if you want to dissolve them, it doesn't always take that much effort. People always think you have to invest as much as you've already experienced in your life. That's not the truth. That's just what we believe we think. And there are actually really beautiful therapy tools. Talking about it is very, very important. And also talking about it with people who might have nothing to do with it. Maybe with a therapist or with someone who just listens to what your own fears and needs are.
And that's how you can perhaps eliminate those mental traumas more beautifully or give them a new meaning again.
Have you experienced any mental traumas like that yourself while flying? And how did you get past them?
Yes, I'm someone who has experienced a lot, even as a young person.
My brother, the helicopter pilot, died young. They had a really brutal aviation accident. They crashed into a helicopter with a plane. Everyone died, and it was a massive aviation disaster. And I thought to myself, yeah, flying is my life. And there's no reason I shouldn't do it, because I couldn't have influenced that accident. So I learned a bit about how to gain a perspective on accidents and how to deal with them. And then I became a postal pilot. And I knew we were actually doing a dangerous job. I don't want to do that to my parents, also losing a child. So it's not my goal to crash.
I just want to enjoy flying. And that joy was always there. And I told myself, if the joy is no longer there, then I have to stop or take a break, because then it becomes dangerous. I'm not present, then I don't make clear decisions. I could always do that. I could always take a break if I felt overwhelmed. And that is something very, very important. And losses, yes, I really had a few. Also of my best flying friends. I myself crashed once during a training session in a banal, simple paraglider. I never crashed while doing acrobatics. I never crashed during test flights, where I actually had the much higher risk. But I have to tell myself in hindsight, it really was, because I had concentrated on just doing that one thing.
And where I crashed, that was completely a situation of overtraining. I have to tell myself, hey, I should have just taken a break. That was really so unnecessary.
Scattered energy.
And what happened? Or how did this crash come about?
I trained for the solo A training. That's during the tandem training in Switzerland. They also do a solo exam there. And I had an intermediate B glider. And I was a bit underloaded on that glider. And I wanted to do this figure, this eight, I wanted to fly it a bit differently. And at first, I flew it flat and statically. And I was somehow within the time required for the exam. And then there were a few people who said you could also fly it dynamically. And I then tried to train that. And since I was so light, the gear was never with me. Or I wasn't in sync with the gear. And I just couldn't get it.
And I just ripped the glider off. And then it went into the hole. Yeah. Exactly.
But nothing physical happened. You came down on the reserve glider, right?
I got twisted with a half-spiral. The nose went down toward the ground. I was still relatively high up. And I realized, okay, I have so many twists. And my hand was still in there. I did have my harness where I had two gliders. And one hand was trapped in the lines. And my pelvis was crooked. And I knew, okay, I can't get to my glider. So I'll just throw out the one I can reach. And it didn't open. Then I kind of banged on it somehow. And at some point ripped my hand out. The first glider didn't open. Then I just threw the second one somehow. It opened. I just prayed they wouldn't tangle with each other.
And then suddenly both opened. And then I had another brief moment of terror because I'd hoped they wouldn't get tangled together. And they stayed open like a miracle. My paraglider also braked a bit at the front. And I landed very, very gently on the ground. I didn't even twist my foot. That was unbelievable for me.
I didn't have anything. Absolutely nothing. Just a scare.
Was this terror, would you also call it a mental injury? Then also? Or was it something where you said, I actually can't from the very beginning,
I can
explain pretty well why it happened. And because of that, I don't regret it, because I actually know what I would definitely do differently next time.
Yes, I know exactly where the mistake happened. I can close my eyes and I have a whole movie playing. The whole thing went so slowly. I had so much time because I was so high up. And that's amazing. How? What happens to the brain? What happens to the brain in that moment? That you actually have a completely different perception of time in survival mode.
The strange thing was actually, my crash was really controlled and went well. The strange thing was at that moment, I landed, called the flight school and said, hey, please don't order a helicopter for me because I'm fine. I just need someone to help me clean up here and get me back to the landing field, because I'm a bit confused, but I'm okay. And then my flight instructor—well, I wasn't at the flight school anymore, but he told me, hey, we've already ordered a helicopter, but not for you. And I was a bit perplexed.
He went back to the landing field and there was a boy. And his father had flown up at the thermal in the same half-hour and had the accident. And yes, he crashed. And I was there with my two emergency gliders, complete chaos, totally sweaty, and thinking, yeah, this is weird, I survived and the other one didn't. And at the same time, what's the deal? And that was a bigger problem for me to deal with than having touched the ground again with his healthy feet. And I got help because that was too paradoxical for me. I couldn't process it. Really weird.
Was were those feelings of guilt then? Exactly. So, strange feelings of guilt, because of course you weren't at all to blame. Right. But asking yourself, why did it happen to him and not me?
I had exactly that feeling: how can someone have so much luck in life while someone else loses their life in the same minutes? I was completely torn. Yes, I really said, I need help now, I need support now. I can't process this. That was the best thing I did, right at that moment, accepting help. Because my knowledge wasn't enough to deal with it. Otherwise, I might not be flying anymore today.
That was a real injury, yes, exactly. It
There are always people who start out really enthusiastic about flying and then suddenly stop. And often, you get the impression that these are experiences they aren't properly processing or categorizing or something like that. From your perspective, would it be important to spread the word in the communication, in the community, to also say, hey people, get help if you're stuck at a certain point. If you had a flight experience that you just can't process right now, have the courage to ask others, even if it's just your flying buddies to talk it over with first. And if that doesn't help, then get professional help too.
Yes, what do you think about that?
Should you?
I think
anyway, that it would make sense. But you're the professional mental coach who might be able to say, yeah exactly, come to me or go to others, whatever.
Somewhere, it's a natural reaction that we want to feel good. And if we observe the people around us, those who inspire us in this sport or elite athletes—and the best part is, many of them often talk about it too. For example, I had wonderful conversations with the director, and he is a phenomenon in this regard. I don't want to hype him up now, sorry, rule. But he possesses the ability to talk about things that weigh on him so that he can work through them, or let them go and move on. And he has an incredible ability to focus on what he needs right now to keep going.
And he certainly didn't just do that as a child; it was already so deeply ingrained in him as a human being. He also worked on it. And the beautiful thing is that these people actually talk about these things openly if you ask them. And that should fascinate us too—that we do this—because we can only grow if we make mistakes, reflect on them, and find new ways. Otherwise, we always make the same mistakes with the same behaviors. Nothing ever changes in life that way. I have to change my thinking for the action to become different. Otherwise, I stay in the same actions, and they create the same thoughts and the same patterns. That's just how we are. They're like our operating systems, our factory settings.
When you work as a mental coach, what portion of that do pilots who come to you and say, "I really need to talk to you about an aviation technical or mental problem" actually take from your work? Yes. In
Usually, mental issues or complaints are accompanied by something else. When I fly—and I'm usually happy in this aviation world, and there are relatively few things that bother me—and suddenly it doesn't feel as good for some reason, without me having had an accident or anything, then the problem often lies in another area of life, on a different level, maybe at home. With family, in the relationship. Or maybe at work. A distracting factor somewhere else that prevents you from getting into your thing. That's when athletes come and say, I can't get into the flow of climbing anymore.
Something is wrong with me, even though I'm doing my training exactly the same way. I haven't experienced any bullshit. And then I just ask myself, what else is going on in my life? Oh, my girlfriend is stressing me out again. Yeah, sure, okay. That affects me, doesn't it? Yeah, it does something to you. And it's exactly these things that irritate us in those areas where we should be functioning well. That's why it's so important for pilots in general, no matter what you fly, to find a tool or a way with yourself to perhaps leave things on the ground and deal with them later, or to say, "This is weighing on me. I'm not ready to do the flight today. I can't deliver."
It doesn't do any good.
Some people use flying as a kind of escape, at least a temporary one, to say, really, as you just said, I'm leaving the problems on the ground behind and in the air I'm just the happy person, the free person, who can fly around liberated. From your perspective, is that a meaningful approach, or should one simply say, no, flying shouldn't actually be used as an escape?
Both. I think if you ask someone if they're escaping because they go flying because they have a problem at home, for example—that's just an example—they won't admit to you that they have a problem. And they won't call it an escape either, because they're just going flying, because they've always gone flying. They're just flying more. On one hand, I think that because you learn to fly yourself, and you spend a lot of time alone on the paraglider, that gives you very, very much personally as a pilot. It enriches you, it makes your heart happy, and you have something that you can lead alone in responsibility. You can pilot the thing, nobody bothers you up there, you have your peace of mind. That's one reason, and that's something you've built up over your whole flying life.
And it's a place that gives you strength. That's why I think it's right. To go flying so you can get closer to yourself, so you can feel good and be happy. And on the other hand, you can easily use the whole thing for situations where you just want to get away from home or away from your stories on the ground. There, of course, it's back to the individual—whether you want to face your problems in life or not.
A matter of character or a matter of reflection. Everyone's choice.
Well, both. You can't say it doesn't do anything, or that you shouldn't escape. It can also be healing, sometimes giving you peace of mind at least for a phase, so you can gather the strength to face everyday problems again.
Exactly, I don't know how you feel about it. Do you like flying?
No, not at all. I hate flying.
Oh, come on, that's too much.
No, I really enjoy flying, but for me, it's not actually an escape from everyday life. I actually have a very nice daily life and a very well-functioning relationship, so I can't complain at all. And flying is just a plus on top, the icing on the cake. That's just beautiful. So I can just enjoy it, and over the years, I've become a very unpretentious flyer and more and more of a pleasure flyer who takes along whatever is possible, but doesn't end up saying, oh shit, it's only 77 instead of 78 kilometers or whatever. That has become completely irrelevant to me over time.
Yeah, nice. I think that's exactly the kind of message we could put out. I thought of the exact same thing. You chose to fly, so it's actually supposed to be fun, and sometimes you have to dial back your expectations a bit and just appreciate what you have. The love is kind of in the air there, too.
I'd like to briefly go into the negative again, or rather, a negative experience. You wrote me such a nice keyword in an email, just very briefly. And then I thought, I want to address that. A negative experience you had, it says "knockout" while flying thermals. And I can't imagine what that means. What was that?
Okay, I was in Fisch one day, doing thermals. There was a slight tendency for the Bise to come in. And when the Bise hits, we often get rather torn thermals in Fisch. It's a bit exhausting to fly. Yeah, that was one of those days. I went out, it went up like a rocket. And in two or three circles, I was over the Eckishorn or something. Way too fast. It just shot up there.
And for me, it's sometimes a physical thing. I was out to dinner with my colleague the night before and we somehow had two glasses of wine. That just doesn't sit right with me. Then I go out there and bang, I'm up there. And suddenly I notice up there, wow, I actually feel sick right now. It happened too fast. And when I have something like that, I'll fly out into the valley to calm down, eat, drink. And then I keep flying. I was so high. I then continued towards Wellwald. And during the crossing, I recovered a bit and entered the next tube. And that one was really not good again. And suddenly, I was just gone.
I can only remember that my paraglider was oriented towards Rasselstadt. So, towards the south, actually. That was the last image I had. And then there was nothing anymore. Just black. At some point, I woke up again and I was still in the same tube. But my paraglider was somehow heading, I'd say, 90 degrees away from the last image I had. But I have no idea what happened, whether I kept turning or if it was just a quarter turn, because I have no sense of time. And I felt sick for a moment. And then I cut away, down, it took forever until I could land. I landed and
was gone again. And then I thought, oh shit, what is that? And I just felt sick for a moment. And a friend took care of me and asked if I'd had breakfast. And I usually do. But I couldn't explain it, and I think it was just physically unbearable for me that day to climb so fast, and maybe also those, to put it bluntly, two glasses of alcohol the night before, since I never drink—my body just couldn't handle it somehow. The thermals were so abrupt and hard that, wow, I just couldn't take it somehow.
Exactly. I didn't like it, and I don't want to experience it again.
Yeah, I've experienced stuff like that.
So, since then, you skip two glasses of alcohol if you know you want to go flying the next day? Or what lesson have you taken from that?
Definitely, I don't drink alcohol when I go flying, and it's the same now at the flight school. They say you might be allowed to drink alcohol up to twelve hours beforehand, but it just doesn't do anything for my brain or my whole body, and I might just react strongly to those toxins. And then, yeah, I learn from that to just skip it.
It's quite funny, I just listened to a podcast yesterday by Gavin McClurg where he had an aviation doctor on who used to work with the US Air Force. He deals a lot with altitude effects, but also with sleep therapy and nutrition, and how all of that affects the body's physiology, specifically regarding flying. He also said that alcohol, for example, is something people don't think much about, but it can extremely amplify the body's reaction to the decreasing oxygen levels, especially when you go up. Yeah, and if you usually say you can handle an altitude of 3,000 meters super easily,
could it be that if you still have a bit of alcohol in your system, you can feel it very clearly from 2,000 meters as the oxygen level just drops. And it could be exactly that with you, especially if you're moving upwards so quickly that your brain literally says, "Hey, I have a lack of oxygen or whatever, I'm just shutting down at this point."
Exactly, that's how it is. I actually had a cerebral edema once before when climbing and ascending.
I can go up to a certain height, but at some point it just isn't good for me anymore, and I've actually looked into this repeatedly with a good friend of mine who is also a medical professional.
...deals with altitude stories or high-altitude medical conditions as well.
Yes, he keeps saying the same thing over and over; it's really true that my body probably has its limits there, and yes, I've already had experiences with that, like getting this brain disease or a brain edema in South America. Yes, my brain has already taught me a few things during that time on this earth.
Have you been flying for 18 years now? No,
less, 15.
Did I miscalculate? Didn't you start at 20 and you're 38 now?
Oh, that's right, sorry, I probably didn't count the test pilot years. Yes, yes, that's right. Yes, I've been in the air for so long, that's how it is. I did eight of them as a test pilot. Okay,
So 18 years, that's quite a lot of experience. What do you know from all those experiences you've had? Is there some kind of special—not a special experience, but a special realization or something where you say, "I know that today, I would have liked to have known that very early in my flying years." Maybe it would have saved me a lot or given me some nicer moments, or whatever.
Yes, absolutely, and that might be an area that interests you. In those young years, I always wanted to get answers about certain weather phenomena we have here in this wild valley. And I always grilled my flight instructors with questions. And sometimes they told me, you know, we don't know that, we have to experience it. We're only just learning it. We're discovering flight areas that we're now learning to define or learn to understand. Yes, why can't you do that and why is it like this here? I often didn't get any answers, but I was someone who wanted to know a lot.
And over time, the flight areas have developed, the pilots have more knowledge, and people know the pitfalls. And that's certainly something I would have liked to have earlier, but the knowledge wasn't there. We also brought in meteorologists to train our pilots. And the meteorologists told us, "Well, what can I tell you? You fly here. You know better how it works here." But we had no description for these phenomena we were experiencing. We only experienced them and exchanged information, but we had no explanation for them. And by now, we've actually reached a point where we can all talk about the same things a bit and that it's somehow become explainable.
And even now, when I fly with the motorplane pilots, they don't learn that in such small detail. They actually learn the big weather. And then they come in to land. And they might have convergences or wind shear. And they think, yeah, what is that? And I think to myself, yeah, they have to learn to pull down now too. I mean, landing is on the ground and not at 3,000 meters. And I wish I had known all these things earlier in life. But it comes with time. That was, I believe, like everything else, a development.
But I think that's a bit of a wishful thought. Because I've been dealing with meteorology throughout my entire flying career. I learn something new every year, every day, and in every new flight area. Or rather, I form my theories and say, "Here, it should work like this and that." Then you can try it out and find that in 70 percent of cases, it works. The theory is correct. And in 30 percent of cases, you might say, "Okay, my theory doesn't hold up today," or "Here, it works differently somehow." Then you might ask a local, and they'll tell you why that is. "But it's always like this here." And then you really have to fly there for a while to slowly develop an idea of why, for example, the side valley sucks in air like that on certain days, or whatever else is always associated with it.
So, in the end, it's also a lot of experiential knowledge that you can only build up through experience. And where the whole community can, in principle, build up a shared experience. And that's probably nice for those learning today, because they can be taught certain experiences much, much faster than the people from back then who only started in the late 80s and had no idea at all, but just threw themselves into some air where they didn't know at all what valley wind does like what? Where are the jets? What rotors are there? Or other things. There's a nice story someone told me once about a launch site. I don't know what it's called now.
In the Zillertal, back when the paragliding scene first started, that was one of the main launch sites. And that's a launch site where a rotor forms from the valley wind. It sits behind a sort of nose. You can launch out there. The wind always hits from the front because the rotor essentially twists the wind so that it always comes from the front there. And when they started launching there in the beginning, they flew out, launched into this rotor. But the gliders had such a poor glide ratio that they always basically fell out or flew out of the bottom of the rotor and never had a problem. That means they never actually really felt the rotor as such, but only as a good headwind from the front. But then, when the gliders suddenly had slightly better glide performance and didn't sink downwards anymore at 1 to 2 or 1 to 3, but instead flew straight ahead, so to speak, at 1 to 5, 1 to 6, 1 to 7, the pilots suddenly hit the dangerous part of the rotor.
All of a sudden, they didn't feel the air coming from below and in front anymore, but from above, where the rotor slammed into them. And then, pilots started crashing down one after another and had to learn, okay, there seems to be a phenomenon here that we couldn't feel before. Namely, ah, a valley wind rotor is forming there—that's what they slowly understood. And nowadays, when there's a valley wind, no one launches at this launch site anymore because everyone knows it's life-threatening. But the experience you gain also always relates to what technology you're using, right? I mean, what kind of gear are you using? And does that gear even lead you into the areas where you gain that experience in the first place? Just like you say, with a wing that's always only flying at 3,000 meters, of course, you'll never be able to gain the experience that someone gets near the ground.
With the currents and everything else that happens down there near the ground. And those are certainly things that have to come together first.
Cindy, I read a nice sentence on your Facebook. You wrote that the most sensible decision I've made in my life is to fly. Why is that the most sensible one?
Because it's the place that makes thermals happiest. Maybe because I, like other people up there, have my peace.
And because I—let me just think for a second—the sun is such a thing. I love flying towards the sun. I'm someone who loves sunsets. And I often actually face my face towards the sun. I love flying straight into the sun.
I think that's it—those are the emotional values that I always include when I write texts. What it actually means to me that I'm even allowed to do this in this life.
You've also mentioned several times now—did that come out?—that you're currently doing your training for a private pilot license, so with a motorized aircraft. Why?
So, can an engine replace a paraglider?
Never, never. And believe me, the best flying is still paragliding. As a child, I dreamed of flying in a plane. My brother, a helicopter. And we saw paragliders every day because that's where we grew up. And I just wanted to have that feeling of flight somehow in my life. And yeah, I started with an umbrella when I jumped down the barn stairs into my dad's manure yard. My dad had sheep and my mom had a big umbrella. For two people, like a fat big one. And I thought, maybe it flies. And I jumped down and got stuck in a manure pile. That didn't fly.
And I thought, yeah, shit, at some point I'm going to need an engine. That came back into my life eventually. I let it slide a bit because I did so much paragliding. And eventually, it came back and I started it with all my fears, wondering if I could do it or not. I started it and I'm not quite finished yet. Actually, I'm still right in the middle of it.
And now these flying worlds are extremely different. So I'd say I'm happy that I learned paragliding first. It gives me a lot, a very lot. Especially in terms of weather, but also with the idea of not relying on the motor for what the weather dictates, the weather-related influences. So I want to say, I don't let myself become more confident just because I have a motor. Because I think that's a dangerous attitude.
What do you need or want from powered flight?
Actually, I had a vision. But I don't know if it will still work in the future. Some friends of mine started a foundation. You've already interviewed Fabio, too.
Fabio Tragen?
Yes, exactly, the humanitarian pilot initiative. That motivated me extremely at the beginning. I was there when the idea was born. And we were together in the departure lounge, flying. And then came the high round. Two years later, the guys got it up and running. That was incredible. It always motivated me because you could still fly with them as a private pilot. But by now, the laws have changed a bit. Only two motorized machines can be flown for SAR flights—so for rescue flights involving people. And also because you're flying over the sea. And in the future, maybe only commercial pilots will be used. So that's still up in the air right now.
I read that your uncle Marco was a bush pilot. Yes. Is that still a goal for you?
I don't think so. But I'll definitely go back to Canada and do some flights with him. He's retired now. He worked his way up from bush pilot to airline pilot. He really learned to fly up there in Alaska. That's the tough part.
And yeah, he probably passed on a huge part of that passion for the whole thing to me. Today, I get to fly his headset. I always feel great when I put it on. Exactly. Yeah, he's retired now.
Do you also carry something with you when paragliding? Like a kind of talisman or something else, to say, then I feel good?
I keep finding things in my seats. For a while, I had a golf ball with me that we would constantly tuck into each other's paraglider seats, passed from friend to friend. And that one stayed with me for a really long time. It's like the lucky ball. They always get passed on to me a bit further down the line.
But it didn't come from me alone. It's just something that's always passed around in the group. I have a saying on my variometer every now and then. But otherwise, I don't really have any talisman with me, no.
What's the best quote you've ever had on your variometer?
The most beautiful quote? I...
don't have that much space to write that on there. It's mostly just words. Usually, it says that I need clarity. So clear. Mental strength, clarity, mental focus, and strength. I
I just need strength to keep flying, because I used to turn around too early quite often.
Then I wish you lots of strength for all the flights still to come. Whether with the motor glider or, hopefully, also with a lot of paragliding. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you.
And have a good time.
Thank you. Merci.
Anyone who wants to get in touch with Cindy, her website is www.mind-act.net. In the show notes for this episode on the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz, you'll find some more links. If you like Podz-Glidz, you can subscribe to the podcast in your podcatcher of choice. Also, recommend Podz-Glidz to your flying friends. Last but not least, you can financially support my work as a supporter. You can choose whatever amount you'd like to give. If you prefer to orient yourself based on others, 60 euros a year, or about 5 euros a month, is a common contribution. But no matter what you give, every amount helps ensure that Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz can continue to be operated and developed in the service of the paragliding scene.
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See you next time. Don't fall from the sky. Ciao.