So we have a relationship with our sewing machines. Actually, it's scary, but it is...
So. Yes. I don't want a workforce of ten people because I'm striving for growth. I'd rather do fewer products, but do what I do myself, rather than just developing products and having everything produced externally. Yeah, just so the whole thing is still fun.
If you don't sew, you can't go paragliding either. They go together.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Simon Bärtschi and André Bernhard.
And I'm Lucian Haas.
In the paragliding scene, you constantly meet people for whom flying is more than just a hobby. It's a passion and a way of life. For Simon Bärtschi and André Bernhard, that's amplified by a second passion: sewing. Both became enthusiastic about it in their youth, independently of one another. When they met years later while paragliding, the groundwork was already laid for an unusual joint project to grow.
Simon and André run Flugsau GmbH today. They develop harnesses, special backpacks, and accessories like camera mounts. And they are the go-to address in Switzerland when it comes to creating custom pieces for paragliding based on customer requests. They still sew everything themselves in an old pigsty converted into a manufactory in Grafenort in the Engelberg Valley. For this episode 140 of Podz-Glidz, I visited Simon and André in their production rooms. Against a backdrop of a large laser cutter and well over a dozen industrial sewing machines, they talk about the history of Flugsau, among other things.
How sewing and flying go hand in hand for them, their creative process, the search for perfection, and how you can make a living with Swiss craftsmanship in the rather price-sensitive paragliding scene.
If you like Podz-Glidz, then why not support my work on it as a patron? You can find out how it works so easily on the paragliding blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the "Fördern" page.
André and Simon, who or what is Piggy?
Piggy is a harness series. The name comes from Flugsau. And a piggy is a little pig, and that's why we gave this harness category the name. And that's why we gave this harness category the name. And that's why we
given this harness category the name. Uh,
How uselessly he addressed it as 004 worldwide and
We called this name Piggy right away. Why Piggy? Because Piggy sounds warm, like a little pig, it's recognizable, and the whole series follows that logic. The whole series is the PiggyB for the pilot harness, the PiggyPA for the passenger harness, and so on.
And what else is this series called? Well, you have "Flugsau" as your company name—which is a very German name—and now you're using an English name for your harnesses. How does that fit together? I don't think there's that much depth to it
...that much depth again. We chose the name and you have to have something. We found that it fits quite well. There's a kind of symbiosis.
It also sounds good and friendly. "Sau" is often associated with something bad too. "Piggi" sounds casual, it sounds good, but we didn't really study it deeply, why we chose that name.
If "Sau" is associated with something bad, why did you choose "Flugsau" as a brand name?
It dates back to about 2009, during the search for a name. The name "Flugsau" consists of "Flug" and "SAU," which stands for Simon, André, and Urs, the founders of "Flugsau." We definitely didn't want to take a name that already exists by the thousands in this field—something like "Flug" something—it had to stand out, be different. We're doing our own thing, after all. We also decided we could generate our own name from our initials that is also cheeky and not standard.
is. It's something you also have to say, and it fits us. People who knew us well in the past have often said the name suits you because you flew like pigs. It's associated with that a bit. And the other thing is, at the beginning, people ask, what's that? "Flugschau," "Flugsau." But once people have it, they don't forget it anymore. Do you also have international customers? What do they say then? They often don't know how we pronounce it. But yeah, that's the company name. I don't think they go into it any deeper. That's the feeling I get. Especially with English or French speakers.
Customers. How does it work for paragliders? When you say you were paragliders. You flew like pigs. In a certain way. You just said that. Exactly. I don't want to assume anything, but it seems like you're still involved somehow. But how does a paraglider get the idea: let's do a kind of, what's the word, a manufacture for paraglider accessories, I'll say mainly.
Well, I wouldn't say we sat down and said, we want to do this. It just happened that way. Because we're from the Akrobereich and... we wanted to pick things up, record them, film them, and so on. And there weren't that many mounts, let's say. Or I wanted a special brake handle because the ones on the market didn't suit me and so on. And so we tinkered some things together for ourselves, let's say. And at some point, friends came along. Hey crew, can you build me something like that too? And that's basically how the whole thing...
developed, let's say. But there's still a step from... saying, okay, I'm doing it for myself, I'm doing it for a few friends, and I'm making a business out of it. Or I'm making a living, somehow supporting myself with it. How did it come to the point where you said, okay, we're really going to do this professionally? It just happened. I mean, we
before the company Flugsau, we had the company Acrosound. And back then, our goal was for one of the two of us to have half a day of paid work. That's how it started. And we never had the idea that we'd get to the point where we are now. Where we don't... we make accessories, but we also make many other things. In Switzerland, we're certainly a brand for the professional tandem sector. But we never... we never made a business concept and said, now it has to be this and that. And the other thing is definitely the passion.
We started in our childhood and youth with the fact that we both have a high affinity for and enjoy sewing. And for us, it was never a job, but always a passion, a joy. And it has remained that way to this day.
So you're saying you were already sewing as teenagers, even during your school years? Yes, both of us, yes. And what did you sew back then? I didn't sew harnesses or anything like that. No.
So, strangely enough, I started knitting in kindergarten, and in Switzerland, they say you learn knitting. Actually, I wanted to learn that. No idea why, it just interested me. Then also sewing things in general or... I didn't have anything at home. I didn't have the money to buy anything. But Mom's sewing machine was there and somewhere there was a broken backpack where you could use the padded straps. To sew a climbing harness out of it, to secure yourself when climbing trees. So I did that because the material was there. The interest in sewing, in creating or modifying something, was also there.
And so the whole thing actually just happened. How
How old were you when you say you sewed a harness for climbing trees? Ten maybe. Ten, twelve. Oh wow. And how do you come up with that at that age? How do you even get the idea to say, I need a harness to climb trees?
Yeah, there are booklets where climbers, who have always been interested in heights and climbing, are featured. Then you see what's out there. And he didn't have the means or just wanted to build it himself because you see it in a brochure or a booklet, and the climbers are secured that way. And then you wanted to recreate something as comfortable as possible. Where you could say to yourself, yeah, it holds you, you won't fall out of the tree. Whether it would have actually held, I'd say it's doubtful with the cotton threads they used. But that's basically how it started for me. Also sewing kites yourself and so on, that's what interested me.
Did you two also...
Did you two know each other since childhood? No. No, Simon and I were about 20 when we met, I'm a bit older. But when we started talking, we clicked very quickly. As Simon explained, how he did his stuff with 10, I also did static tests in the climbing area as a child. So the children's climbing frame served as a hanging point to perform load tests and see how something breaks. And Simon has pretty much the same story. And even though we grew up only about 20 kilometers apart in a straight line, we only met much later.
met later. But then we realized that we are, at least when it comes to sewing, maybe even more like soulmates in a certain way.
Yeah, well, that would be... having an interest in the same things. And being interested in actually doing something, not just buying some random stuff somewhere. It's also certainly a matter of us not having the means back then to just buy any kind of material. Instead, we made things ourselves, built them ourselves. And yeah, it was actually a coincidence. We were here in the Engelberger Tal. It was actually in Engelberg, where we were flying. I was here with another colleague. Others were already here in the valley quite often. And that was in 2005, I think.
And then we needed someone to drive my car down. And in the end, André drove down with the car. It turned out that he's at an alpine pasture up here from time to time. And he has a sewing machine there. And that's how we met. And went flying. And we also had two or three similar things when flying. Like, we had fun with the same things, I'd say. Which is also how we eventually got into battery-powered flying.
So, did you both do Akrofliegerei? Or what was the common thread?
We didn't call it "Akro-flying" for a long time. We just enjoyed trying out the maneuvers. There wasn't a YouTube channel or the internet back then either. We had to teach ourselves. And we did it in our own way, trying out our own things. There wasn't a "this is how it has to be." We just enjoyed doing this or that. It wasn't until much later that we started calling it Akro-flying. Actually, only when it came to competing in our first international competitions.
Yeah, but even then we actually still resisted calling it "Akku-Fliegen." And we hated it when someone said, "We're going to train." That wasn't our spirit. We wanted to fly. We wanted to have everything under control in as many situations as possible, let's say. But if someone said, "We want to train," and then asked about what, we reacted almost allergically to that. Because we wanted to fly and have fun. Not train and only look at the competition. It was primarily about having fun and flying.
Going back to the "Flugsau" and the beginning, you mentioned they also said you flew like pigs. What was so "pig-like" about your flying?
Today, you'd call this learning battery flying. Back then, it wasn't like that yet. It wasn't really well-known. People mostly flew straight, thermically, and on distance. And when people watched us trying things with a half-open glider, getting very low to the ground, we were just the crazies here in the valley. Until the point where we eventually brought home a medal. And then it became battery flying. And then we weren't just the nutjobs anymore; things shifted a bit.
What kind of medal was that?
Swiss Championships we did. As a synchro team? Or did you each bring home a medal in individual? No, in synchro flying,
but funnily enough, not with each other. We had different partners. Because it also has to be precise. I don't think we... synchro flying is fun, but not as a reliable show performance. We just didn't click.
Definitely not. Yeah, well, for me at least, the synchro competition flying was more of a coincidence. There weren't enough participants for it to count officially as a Swiss Championship. So they asked, "Don't you want to fly synchro too?" But in the beginning—I can still remember, that was 2006, 2007 in Villeneuve—they didn't have enough teams. So they put people together. "Hey, wouldn't you make a team with Judith, for example?" But it somehow didn't fit. And then there was another young pilot from Valais. And yeah, we're doing it anyway.
We have nothing to lose. And that's basically how it started. And then there were other competitions with him. We flew synchro, but also with other synchro partners. But mostly just because it's fun and not really out of a competitive mindset.
When you see the aerobatics scene today, which is very professionalized at least regarding the world elite, and where people basically arrive at 12 o'clock from 24 hours away, they train during the day—at least that's the impression you get. They're always just flying around, then sitting in Organia or somewhere else, in the air all day, constantly practicing the same maneuvers. Would that be something that could still fascinate you, or would have fascinated you back then, if it had already been developed that far? Or is that something where you'd say, no, that's already beyond how we imagine flying?
I have to flip the question a bit. For us, back then, it was great, but definitely completely different from today. The vibe was already the main focus, and the international competitions they attended—there were people from home and abroad, and back then, I don't know, it wasn't 100 or 200 people who flew Acro. We never did it out of some deep competitive drive, but simply out of the joy of meeting people and flying. And we went to Iquique too and had a great time there.
Today, you'd say training. But I also think what the kids do today is totally cool. And it still has that vibe; we just have a different pursuit now. And for me, that question doesn't even arise.
How much is coming
...left to fly? Not much. Not because we can't do it anymore, but because we don't need to do it as often as we used to, let's say. In the past, we'd head up the mountain in all kinds of weather, and maybe the rain would stop for a bit and then we could fly down. And today, it's like, we could go out way more than we actually do.
Is that age? Do you get saturated at some point? You've actually experienced and seen everything in the air. Especially if you're a bit of a daredevil. If you really fly around and really try out everything the glider has to offer. I'd say,
You're sure you've never experienced everything. But it's like, when you fly a lot, or some people who have flown a lot, they're like... we used to joke about an Akro burnout. That if you fly too much, you lose the fun of flying that you actually want. I think that's extremely individual. But I do think if you've been flying very intensely and a lot for a while, you eventually want to calm down a bit and rather pick out the nice flights or even take a break to be able to enjoy the flight again at all, instead of just going all the time.
What is a nice flight for you today? It could be when I do a hike and fly with my wife and then, in easy conditions, glide down comfortably after a coffee in the mountain hut. Or it could be Sohren in Denmark. Or it could be a relaxed valley tour here in the Engelbergetal with a cross-country glider. So, nothing crazy anymore? It doesn't have to be. If I feel like flying a helicopter with my hike and fly glider, then I'll fly it. But it doesn't have to be every flight. And for you, André?
What fascinates me at the moment is that we've hired a young... that we've hired a young person and we're right in the flight area. And that this young person is getting us to go flying more over lunch. Spontaneously. The
still has that passion for flying and is getting you hooked on it again. Exactly,
You have to say that. She really infected us with the idea that when it's flying weather, you just... instead of having lunch, you go flying. Still in flight. We'll be there in five minutes, in ten minutes... In ten minutes we'll be on the mountain and can land in front of our shop. I find that really cool right now.
But is that then just a glide you do? Or is it also... does that Akro-style or playful flying-going come back into play and you say, wonderful, I'll do one trick down from the mountain during my lunch break.
I've always done a bit of tumbling, but in a completely different way. And it's like, yeah, you pull a bit more and then you're allowed to do the glider. Yeah, I can rip the glider off, but nowadays you have light gliders and I'm actually mindful of not breaking these in just a few weeks, but rather being a bit more careful with them.
A bit of a change of subject to the sewing. You just said there was a point with Akrofliegen where you said, yeah, it wasn't tiresome, but at some point it was also, in a way, enough. Now you've been sewing since childhood and now you do it very intensively in your job too, because you deal with sewing every day. Are there also moments where you say, sometimes I'm tired of being this machine?
I haven't had that. I'd say it can happen. There's work you like less than other things. I mean, if you have some tedious repair where you'd rather build something new or sew something together, there are definitely tasks that are more or less fun. I think pretty much everyone feels that way when they're working. But it's not like I feel, "That's enough, now I want to do something completely different." Because if I want to do something else, even in the field of sewing, I have the option; I can do something else. And from that perspective, I never have the feeling,
I want to do something completely different now. I want to do something else because it's fun and it's extremely versatile with all the different types of work we do.
What is it about sewing that's so fascinating for you? That you say you've been doing it since you were kids, almost four decades until today.
For me, it's not explicitly the sewing, but playing with the material. Playing with the stability. I know how much something holds, the connection to the fabric. And sewing is just a small process in the grand scheme of things. It includes the cutting, designing new things. And that's what makes it so exciting, because it's so versatile. You're not just sitting at the sewing machine, you're thinking about how I can solve this or that. And for me, it was always clear: I want to reach a level where I have my own playground. I want to have the skills to design, build, sew, and test things with ease.
That's my motivation behind sewing. And you can't really... I can't imagine even remotely losing that drive. Because it's such an extremely versatile... world that goes into so many areas. It never stops.
But it's also that kind of connection where you say, okay, you have the fabric, you have the thread, you have whatever. And it emerges from you playfully when it comes to, I need to find a solution for some problem or something like that.
When you have that certain know-how, then there's a fun factor involved. And then you can solve these problems without it meaning... work for you or for me. It doesn't mean work for me; instead, I enjoy implementing it that way. Is it similar for you?
Yeah, so for me, that doesn't mean I can just throw a solution on the table immediately, let's say.
But it's also about the fact that a solution might come after one, two, or three weeks, or you forget about the problem and come up with a solution a year later. I think it's more about the fact that it's playful... or that it's enjoyable to develop a solution, rather than me having a solution ready immediately. And over time, of course, you always get better solutions for different problems, and you also have the opportunity, when a customer comes to you with a problem, to say, "Oh, I've had something similar before, we can solve that this way or that way." And that's also extremely fun. It's not that I'm saying I have a solution for everything. Not at all. I don't think anyone does. But... yeah. Searching for the solution and finding it is just fun, and it'll still be fun in ten years when you find a solution for a problem.
I think it's more about that than me being able to say I have a solution for everything. And
we're definitely strong as a team, right? That we can discuss things together. I want to solve this. Do you have an idea? And together you get much further. Much further. Sure. Sometimes you're... sometimes there's nothing at all. Yeah, that's part of it. But sometimes there are also tons of things. Exactly.
...to that, yes. But that also means you develop everything together? So for every product, if it's something new, you sit down together and... Is that a kind of brainstorming, or how does that work for you? Coffee breaks. Coffee breaks,
where we discuss pretty much everything together. And it can be like this: when we look at a harness project, for example, I do something. And once I've done that, we discuss it. And then a key idea that's missing comes up, and Simon has it right then. Yes, immediately.
I think it's often the case that we don't start by saying, "Hey, let's sit down and do this together." That happens too, when we want to develop some... a product. Usually, it's that one of us takes the lead on the product because they're already deeper into it, either working with a client or already more involved. But when it comes to figuring out my product and also solving problems, since we think quite differently about certain things, then we obviously look at it together. And I go to others... and tell them, "Look, I have this and that," and they give their two cents, so to speak.
And that's usually how the finished product comes together. Where do you guys think differently?
Phew. Difficult, difficult to say. I think we've just been working together for a very long time and everyone has their own development in their life. And we notice that we have very many differences. And we approach very different things,
think very differently as well and know that's exactly what's needed to achieve something good in the end. Or let's say, the more different you are, the more creatively the ideas come from. Then you don't just have one way, but you have... the whole range. Yes. Then you have
do... Is there also arguing about things like that? Where you say, how can you think of such nonsense? Or that's just a stupid solution.
I think there are certainly discussions where one person doesn't understand the other's certain approaches. But that's just part of it. Like in a good relationship, you sometimes have heated discussions. And sometimes you just don't say anything. Because... you don't have to agree on everything. And that's a good thing. And also what André said. If we thought exactly alike, we wouldn't need to be a duo.
Well, you have a whole range of products that you manufacture yourselves and such. Are these products something like your babies to you, your children that you've produced together, in a way you've created?
That's a picture in my head right now.
We don't think that far ahead at all. We're a bit more simple-minded. For me, these aren't my children. A child is something finished. And what we're doing here is a constant striving for something we're trying to make even better. And that is our pursuit. Therefore, it's not a child. It's always a kind of something unborn. Because the whole scene and all the people working in this area are in a state of permanent change. And nothing is ever...
You have a product that's finished. But in your head, you're already working on
something new. On the next model, let's say. If everything were finished, then there wouldn't be... new products, let's say. And you're always trying to improve something or build something in a way that more customers enjoy it, and so on.
Is there any product that you'd say, in the form you have it now, is perfect? That there's actually nothing left to improve?
I wouldn't say that. For God's sake, no, because never... What is perfect?
What I consider perfect, others might think is shit. Okay, that's an exaggeration. For me, there is no such thing as a perfect product. A good product, to me, is one that many people enjoy and can use. That's a good product for me. But a perfect product... I'd never say that
that we have a perfect product. Is there one that you're particularly proud of? Because of some special solution in there or something, where you say, hey, that's something only we as Flugsau can deliver?
I think, if we... You mentioned the Piggy series at the beginning. And I think we are already a bit proud of that, because we built harnesses without copying anything, but really built our own models starting from the fabric. Anyone who flies a Flugsau harness might understand a bit of what I'm talking about. That has a big advantage. It has the Flugsau characteristics. And I'm a bit proud of that, that it's its own distinct line. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be finished, but it's just built in the character of both of us.
From scratch.
Yes, and we also aimed for that from the very beginning—that we wouldn't take other projects or products and, to put it bluntly, I'd say, derive the patterns from them, but that we would draw our patterns by hand, build core types, sit in them, and see what we need to change. Ultimately, some patterns look clearly similar to other products from other manufacturers. That happens automatically if you build a similar type of harness; I'd say that certain parts look similar. That's normal. But what I think we can be proud of, regarding certain things we built differently than most manufacturers at that time,
that it took hold. For example? Not using buckles, but putting the main suspension for the legs directly into the carabiner. That's one example. Either it was fixed-sewn so that you have to step into the light harnesses, or, or it had a buckle. I think that's definitely
the special thing is that at some point it was said, for example with the passenger harnesses, that we don't have the carabiners on the outside of the main suspension, but between the legs. And that definitely resulted in high safety and is actually a great idea that is being implemented by various people today. That's cool. That
is also cool. And we eventually arrived at this solution a bit through climbing. We had the approach of how can we make it so that you don't forget to close the leg loops on the passenger. And the idea was that the carabiner you clip into the spreaders should hang down; you can't clip it in as long as the harness isn't closed. And then the idea came up, yeah, how do we make it easy to clip in? And then there was this saying, yeah, we turn the carabiner around. And we've been doing it that way ever since. Yeah,
Since then, we've noticed that's like a "Simon Special." If you don't know what else to do, just flip everything over. And that's a story that haunts us to this day—whenever we're stuck on a technical solution and don't know what to do, we do the Simon Special.
Turn it 80 degrees and see if it works that way. And sometimes
it works. The products you have, you only sell them through your shop or directly. Do you actually know all your customers personally in some way? Also because you say we produce here, we have a small range, we probably only have a small group of customers, so you'd say we're actually a very, very personal manufacturer.
On one hand, we sell a large portion to tour operators, tandem companies, or flight schools that we know very well. We exchange ideas with them. That means, for example, we go to Interlaken, where there are many tandem pilots, and hold a meeting with them, do questionnaires where we explicitly ask what exactly is wanted. And if then the majority has an idea, we implement it. Just like what the end customer actually wants. But the sales already run a lot through, I'd say, friends or customers who have become friends.
And we don't have as many individuals here as we used to, I have to say, because we're a bit short on time for that. In the past, every customer who came here was an individual customer, and we would explicitly build and modify things for them, but today those are more...
Corporate clients, so...
Tandem companies or whatever. Tandem companies or also flight schools that already have some of our products, which can give the customers or students or whatever something to try out, to test fly, that has also become more and more, even though selling our products, purely financially for a flight school, isn't as exciting as selling other products, since we produce in Switzerland and that just costs more than somewhere abroad.
to produce. Speaking of producing in Switzerland, you basically sew everything here yourselves. But now you also have things where you say, we have a series—so you're not producing it in mass quantities, but at least a certain number of units. Wouldn't it be interesting for you to say, come on, let's just give that to a sewing factory in Asia or something. We'd free up capacity so that we can put our great, cross-functional, intelligent, imaginative thinking into new products. In terms of time. We have
last summer, we looked into this intensively; we teamed up with two other companies located in the same building as us and checked it out. For us, it's always clear that we don't want to give this to some Asian or whatever production, but rather want to keep something like that under control, and we invested time and money to look into the whole story—how something like that would be feasible while we still remain "Flugsau" and the people have that feel for how we work, could we do something in a neighboring country.
We then went to a neighboring country, spent a few days looking at everything,
...written down, came back, and realized that it doesn't matter for us at these quantities, because if I want to produce fairly abroad and have good people, I have the problem that I need good people, and I have to hire them responsibly, but if I pay for all their insurance, provide proper care—meaning, create the same conditions we have here in Switzerland—we aren't actually that much cheaper at the quantities we produce.
We realized that production abroad can be complex if you have the standards of treating people very well, but we were lucky enough to be able to hire someone—it was a seamstress who was already here as an intern and had finished school, and we were able to hire her, and we're very happy now that she's doing things for us that give us more time for other projects. So these are always the thoughts we have and our approaches to solutions.
...have to be consistent with the ethics we have.
We've tried that before, having certain products manufactured by other producers, we tried it and stopped pretty quickly because it's not like a vacuum cleaner, you're not flexible; you can't say if someone wants a brake lever, there's the brake lever, they can't say I want a pink logo on it instead of brown, or that you're just not as flexible anymore. And in the beginning, when we started developing and sewing such things, it was also a bit of our motto: whatever we develop, we want to sew ourselves. And we never actually aimed for growth, we just do what we can sew.
And now we have something in between, where we say that although we've hired someone for 50%, we still want to sew the products here. Of course, there are workshops in our region that support us, to whom we give orders. There's one subcontracting workshop in Stans that we've already given orders to, simply to do partial production so that we're relieved a bit of the time. And that has actually worked very well, and they're also happy when they have simple orders for their people.
Besides the series products you have, people also keep coming to you wanting special custom pieces or with some idea, saying, maybe Flugsau can implement this or something like that. What was the most exciting task for you in cases like that?
Lots of exciting tasks. Really good, good, super cool tasks from
dog harnesses for mine-detection dogs over
Test applications, for example, with aircraft, yes,
through
wedge pillows for therapies with children with disabilities, all very, very different and also exciting things where you say, you could help someone there. How do these people
toward you, when you say, for example, a mine-detection dog, a dog harness—how would I even imagine that? Is a dog being dropped from a glider over a minefield and then it's allowed to search, or what does that mean?
A nice idea. These assignments come clearly from the paragliding scene, from our openness towards others, certainly. That was from
a paraglider colleague we met while battery flying, who works at a company and somehow—he knows what we do—hey, ask them, they might be able to do it. And what does a harness look like? It's basically about having a mount on it with a camera and GPS and everything, so they know which areas have already been searched. That was mainly it.
You also have dog harnesses in your range. Is it that this other colleague approached you because he saw you already have dog harnesses, or did you make one for him and then it became, ah, actually an interesting product—maybe there are other people who would like to fly with their dog or something. We're adding that to our portfolio and making a "Flugsau" series out of it.
So, in this case, these are obviously high-end custom jobs from larger companies. He comes to us, and anyone who sees our workshop and what kind of possibilities we have, naturally makes the connection pretty quickly: "Oh, they could also do this or that."
But I don't think in this case it's that he came to us because we build dog harnesses for paragliding. We already had flying dog harnesses. Not on the internet. Not on the internet, we've always built dog harnesses. I don't think that's the reason he came to us. He saw everything we do and basically came to us like, you have a small workshop, can you build this, can we do this together
...develop. Are there also other customers who don't come from the paragliding scene at all? Who come to you through whatever contacts they have?
Yes, there are
some companies for which we sew things. For example? That could be a safety belt for a roller coaster. That has something to do with Akrofliegen, almost. Yes, it has to hold. And we're interested in that too, of course—how do people find us? And there's also a friend of a worker who works there who knows us. So, he knows us, he's probably already ordered something from us before. And they were probably having an after-work beer and somehow, yeah, we need a new supplier for our safety belts or whatever the conversation was. And he probably said, yeah, ask them. Or a
another customer for whom we sew certain things, one of André's old schoolmates worked there, still works there. He knows what André does and always asks around. Or always inquires if they can or want to do something like that. And that's how it's always happened.
I also think the thing is, when we
when we started sewing, we had things from our setup that weren't exactly common in Switzerland. Who had laser cutting in that size at that point? There wasn't really much of that yet.
Yeah, we had certain machines here and were open to different things, I guess. All of that was done abroad. Just some static seam for a repair. You have to send it back to the manufacturer and then it goes somewhere. There were some who did that, but there weren't many who did something like that. They didn't build the whole thing around it, let's say. They did it on the side, but the core business was something else. And we accepted orders like that, like with Dank, at the beginning, that we...
do something.
How often do people still come in today and say, "I have something to repair," and do you actually do it?
It's like, we do repairs. They're not as frequent anymore. But that has more to do with the fact that we need more and more space for production and are buying, converting, and inventing more and more crazy machines, and have less time for end customers. And about two years ago, when this Corona stuff hit, we were, more or less, only open the shop by appointment. Then we have a ratio where, when we started, we had two-thirds warehouse and one-third workshop.
And the workshop has taken up more and more space over the years. It's actually pushed the shop out. Yeah, by now we... I mean, how should I put this, our building is an old Stall, it's eight by 24 meters long, and of those 24 meters, 20 meters are actually production or have machines standing in them. Yeah, that's how it's turned out, more or less.
Yeah, we're also moving away from retail or resale more and more; we're focusing on our own products, or our own production. And to go back briefly to repairs. In recent times, I'd say over the last few years, more and more products have come onto the market. Everything has to be lighter now. More and more products have hit the market that we don't want to repair with a clear conscience. So we often say with repairs, we're staying away from those, because if we want to repair something, it should hold up and it should be good again.
But there are many products that, yeah, you can somehow repair. But then on the next flight, the seam just rips because the material is so thin.
How often does it happen that you get repairs or materials from other manufacturers? You're the absolute experts now. And you look at it and think, oh, what kind of weird solution is this? No,
So we certainly don't think of them as weird solutions. We always enjoy it when other people—most of whom we can call our friends—do something. Regardless of whether it's good or bad, other solutions fascinate us, we think they're great, and we find it cool that such a dynamic exists. And because we're so small, we can also [talk to] every manufacturer
call and say, do you have this material or where did you get it or whatever. And that is a very, very open exchange with most of the company designers. And that is what allows us as a small company to get to this material at all. That
I mean, they don't see you as competitors in any way, but rather like, oh, this small, overpriced—well, overpriced from an international perspective—Swiss manufacture, they won't be able to take anything big from us anyway. So it's a fact, it's just simple. We can't do that, yeah. Does it happen that people like that—I mean, they probably value your know-how just as much and think it's great how you think—and so similar minds probably come together. Do manufacturers ever come to you and say, hey, can't you co-develop something for us or we have a problem here, we're stuck. Do you maybe have a Flugsau solution or something for that?
That happens all the time and it's always interesting to discuss. But we're already very busy with what we do, and we want to push our own projects forward rather than doing something for someone else.
build. We've already been approached by various manufacturers asking if we could sew prototypes for them, if we wanted to develop harnesses for them—we've been asked, but that's not what we want. We want to build our own story, whether it's good or bad, that's ultimately always a bit of a matter of opinion. But the great thing is, many designers from other manufacturers have already been to our place, and we're open to those kinds of visits, and yes, they also want to do their own thing, and of course, it's exciting that you can also discuss or speak with people like that.
You speak the same language. You
talk about things where you wouldn't understand a single word. And we're so deep into it and have so much joy when we talk about these, let's say, I don't know, 100 people who make paraglider harnesses in this world; when you naturally meet people like that and can dive deep into the gear, it's just beautiful. It's just beautiful. And everyone there has their own
approach, how he does it and so on and so forth. And we have our own there, too.
approach. We already have a very, very unique approach, just because we are extremely, very small. We can't work the way most paraglider manufacturers do. That's just not possible.
Have you ever had to issue a safety notice for any of your products?
We had one once, but it wasn't ours, we didn't sew it. We had one back then.
Otherwise, we have, well, the customers we have are so close to us that we can just contact them directly
...can message them directly. Since we don't know, I don't know how many hundreds of harness manufacturers build per series, we know how many harnesses there are and where the harnesses are.
You can actually get in touch with the customer directly. That's certainly also a small advantage if you're not that big and don't have the volume,
then you don't need that, because I know I've made this many and that many of these harnesses, they're there, there, and there, and then you inform the people if something were to happen where some material wasn't up to standard.
What surprises me sometimes, especially with safety notices for harnesses, is that there are three or four every year because of some seam opening here, there, or...
The rescue handle somehow doesn't work properly or falls apart, and other things like that. Is it not possible, from a development and quality control standpoint, to do this in a way where you could do without it? I mean, it's even well-known manufacturers who have to release something like that and say, "Yeah, that seam didn't quite work right." Can't you really always sew it in a way where you can say the seams are okay?
Hard to say, I think the others already said what's essential in the preliminary discussion. We also fly, but the companies that sew the products for larger firms, they usually don't fly themselves, and yeah, it's like...
When we're sitting at the sewing machine, we're flying, and if we're making a static seam, we're in the air, and it's crystal clear that it has to hold. And you always have something on a machine that might not be good and could cause a problem, but if you do it from the perspective we do, you pretty much rule that out, including the checks and everything else we do. That's likely why we've probably never had a significant incident that would have endangered anyone; it most likely comes from that.
And the big manufacturers, they have to approach this differently, but the bigger they are, the more these companies differ from us, and these are issues that we look at for ourselves and not really for anything else—we don't look at what's left and right, we go our own way. But we certainly understand why such safety notices exist here, from a purely, let's say, material-sewing perspective.
perspective. Maybe going back a bit, you asked if it couldn't be prevented, that such safety notices are necessary? I think you could certainly minimize it with a certain amount of effort, but I also think it's important that these safety notices exist and that there are platforms where such safety notices are shared, because everything a human does, mistakes can happen, and to exclude that 100%, that's impossible. The question is only how much effort you have to invest to minimize that to a small percentage? It's a bit of a balancing act, which effort is worth it and what has actually already happened?
And it's certainly a lot
is happening with all manufacturers, everyone is learning; we are still in a young sport, if we compare it to parachute sports, for example, where they had much more time to learn and they implement things differently, and we are certainly on... or generally, the harness manufacturers are all improving, from my point of view, for the better, because they have more time to learn. It also certainly plays a role when you look at how the price development of the harness manufacturers has been. Prices have simply risen over the last ten years, and exactly this point you mentioned,
also has to do with the price too. If we look at how much material a parachute harness needs and what it costs and how much time that takes, it's a different price level, and with paragliding we're also moving in a more professional direction, and I think that also plays a big role. I think these things are becoming less common because the items are also being approached more expensively in production, you have to put it that way.
The parachute scene, I'd say, is pretty conservative. So, what has proven itself once, that's how it's built, and there are always the wide harness straps and other things, nothing much changes there. But in the paragliding scene, there's still a lot of development involved, and even in terms of materials, new things are constantly being tried out. So, new fabrics come along, or you say, "Now let's build a lightweight harness," then we just do without the straps, without harness straps, and instead use dynamic ropes or something like that. And of course, you always learn along the way, but there's still so much innovation in there that you actually have to say, a truly functioning standard can't really form. Are we being a bit too adventurous in the paragliding scene?
No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think if you bring up this point, we have to say clearly that our materials and our developments are always closely linked to the outdoor industry. That is, a weaving mill that makes something for climbing, something new that is better and good, will then also be used for paragliding. That is something very close, and of course, there are super cool new developments there, and I don't think that after 30, 34 years of paragliding, we are already at the point where we could say that. That's what makes it so exciting. Skydiving, on the other hand, is 100 years old.
We
...talking about 30. Are there any current trends on the market, in terms of construction techniques or something, where you say it's going in the wrong direction, from your perspective, in terms of quality? Not necessarily.
not necessarily in terms of quality perception, but it's not just in the paraglider sector; I see that generally, everything always has to be lighter. Carbon instead of canvas, I'll say. That's my personal opinion, and the problem is that people don't have deep, long-term experience with light materials; instead, they assume it's been tested like the heavy material used to be, and they assume it'll still be just as strong and just as good in 5 or 6 years. From my point of view, or rather, I have to say, customers treat the light material the same way, or similarly, as they used to treat the heavy material.
Awareness of lighter materials might not hold up as well or as long. In my view, some pilots lack this. They want the lightest harness with paper-thin fabric for the leg loop, but then they step into it with crampon-compatible boots and feel like it's supposed to hold up just as well as the old harness they had before, which weighed 3-4 kilos. And a bit of the understanding regarding lightweight material is, in my view, still missing for many pilots. And that
The nice thing is, as a small company, we can always decide for ourselves which materials we want to use, how light we want to build something, and for what purpose. Even if an end customer calls us, we don't just say, "We have this product and it would be good," but instead it looks like this: first, how big and heavy are you, are you a mountaineer, what do you do, what do you like, and then we can say this fabric and this weight class is necessary, or this, this, or this. For example, if you bring it up like that, the X-Alps certainly had a huge impact on this performance, lightweight story,
we also have, we had a harness over 10 years ago, 2009, 2013, it was 2013. Did you develop the harness for Chrigel? We built a harness there that weighed 850 grams, a liege harness with 850 grams, I don't think there was ever anything else in that weight class with cabins
and interactions. That
was an
integrated reserve glider compartment. Yes. And the goal was very clear: if Chrigel lands in Zell am See on the river, the harness—uh, in Monaco, sorry, other direction. Back then. Exactly. Then the harness should be shredded. Only the static straps should hold, otherwise we built it too heavy. A year later, he did the X-Pyrénée with the same harness, but that's a completely different approach. There, you look at how light I can build it, because it's specifically for this application. Or we have
harnesses built that didn't exist decades ago, where, for example, Ueli Steck wanted to go to Mount Everest and take off from there. And then we built a training harness with heavy material, and the actual material he then carried up—he unfortunately couldn't fly down, it was super light. And only for this purpose. And that's how you can get really cool, you can achieve completely different weights. There you go
you also push it to the limit. And the training harness, he had to bring that back to us so that it doesn't go into circulation, so it won't be flown again. And then, of course, you can experiment.
How often—or not how often, but do you actually test all your products yourselves? So, are you basically your own tandem pilots, test pilots, who say, "You're sitting comfortably in there"? Or do you work with the customers, they provide the feedback, and then you just make the adjustments?
So we have people who test for us now, or we've always had. Especially in the tandem area, we're talking about pilots who do 1,500 or 1,600 flights a year now. You can give them a harness for three months and they'll test as much in such a short time as would be impossible for us as a normal pilot. Of course, you go flying yourself, because we can also go flying right out the front door. We can fly from the sewing machine to the mountain, try things out, we can mark things out in the air with a pen, we can come down, land, make changes, and half an hour later we're back on the mountain.
So we already do that. But with tandem pilots, there are people with a lot of experience. But there are also specific things you can explicitly test, and we have various people who test those for us as well. So, yeah, simply.
Yes, I think it's also important that we have people who test things for us, because we're very uncomplicated and, to put it bluntly, we're happy if we can sit in an IKEA bag and fly down. It flies, it works. We're not picky about that, so to speak. And the best test pilots are actually the slightly picky pilots. The worst test pilots are when you give someone something to test and they say, "Hey, great." Because, yeah, you need the people who say, "Yeah, it might have pressed a bit here and it wasn't quite good, so something needs to be changed." People who just think the products are great—they're actually the good test pilots.
I mean, the ones that push you forward.
When you get feedback or criticism like that, do you always take it positively and say, "Oh, great, I need to think about that again"? Or is it also frustrating, thinking, "I thought I had a great solution"? For me, it's frustrating when
I don't, well rather, when I
hear, everything's great. Yeah, exactly, if a colleague says, hey, go fly with that, give us the feedback, and he comes back, hey, great. That's actually like, I don't want to hear that, I want to hear how we can improve it, not that everything's great.
is. And there, I personally, we definitely differ there; for me, it's always about better. It can't be that something is finished. And you have to, you have to learn that over the years, when someone says something and it's good, that you can then use it like that.
Exactly, it doesn't always have to be good for us; ultimately, the customer has to be satisfied. I mean, if we're making a custom build, we don't have to be satisfied with it ourselves, we just have to be able to stand behind it. But the customer, who is ultimately paying for it, has to be happy. And that's something you sometimes have to learn—that other people might find something good that we don't. When it comes to technical details and so on, that's a different story. But I'd say, in terms of convenience or handling, just because we don't like something or do like something doesn't mean the customer sees it the same way.
We're talking explicitly about custom builds for, for example, flight schools, tandem companies. We have many customers who have their own aircraft from us, and we stand behind those too. Maybe a detail isn't exactly how we would do it, but they are aircraft components. Funny enough, we've been making these for years, but we've never really published them or anything. Advertised them. Or advertised them or something. There are several
Products that we've never advertised, but have actually been building for quite some time.
And with our own products, we stand by the idea that it can always be a little bit better. And even if it's just a very small idea or application that a customer brought to us because they weren't satisfied with it, we improved it, and that's how we keep moving forward, and forward, and forward. But
we wouldn't, let's say, change a detail on our production product that a customer doesn't like just because we don't think it's good, or we don't think it's perfect. We wouldn't change that in the production line. But if nine out of ten customers say, "Hey, I want a different buckle on the harness. I want a steel buckle so the passengers hear a click and it's closed," even if it doesn't have any static benefits, if nine out of ten say so, then of course we do it. Even if we know a plastic buckle would be sufficient. Otherwise, sure, we try, we try as best as we can to incorporate the feedback from our
Test pilots, let's say. We also know a bit about which people we need to give the material to for testing. It doesn't do any good if we give a tandem rookie, let's say a harness, a harness to test. He does like three tandem flights a year, but it's supposed to be a harness for 1,000 wings a year. That obviously doesn't help.
Now you come from paragliding, you make products for paragliders, but you also make some products for others. What if this other market were to grow? Would that perhaps be less fun for you? Does paragliding and this feeling of flight—and you say when sewing, it's like flying, or when sewing I'm flying, and stuff like that—does that have anything to do with this fascination? Does flying contribute to the work, and would there be less heart and soul involved in sewing with other products? There are already
projects that don't evoke the same feeling. For me, for example, that's when I'm doing some drafting. If
I have one
designers have to do, who specify exactly how I want it, how many pieces of it I need, then that can be a lot of work for me. But when it goes into development for other things, then it's exciting because you have so many synergies, also again for paragliding, that it's cool and that it will become more and other things, that's decided from year to year. For us, it's important that we're not just at home in paragliding, as our history has always been that we want to have a sustainable company.
That is, if we look at the Corona crisis, it's clear now that no one was doing tandem flights, no one was ordering vehicles, and for us, for example, it was important that for...
Whether we can make helicopter accessories or this or that, or that we do a lot of what we already do—these are developments that go in completely different directions. So, in a sense, we are also trying to develop technologies where it doesn't really matter whether they are used for paragliding or for something else. But that we can operate as a business.
Regardless of whether, for example, the economy collapses and we're not actually doing anything for the economy anymore, having paragliding, yes, having different customers is important.
Yes, to be as broadly positioned as possible and still have fun and be able to develop new things, like for example the project we had or still have... Yes, that was also an idea from old paraglider Akro colleagues, how can I still use a decommissioned paraglider rescue pack in a meaningful way, how can I use it with an old paraglider rescue pack to throw supplies out of a small plane so that the whole thing works safely. We did the majority of the development there.
With tests and so on, so that you can safely drop humanitarian supplies from various different old paraglider rescuers to the plane. Yes, that is the
Humanitarian Pilots Initiative. Exactly, yes. I've also had Fabio Zragen on the podcast, and he talked about it then. And I think you just developed the bag that hangs under the glider, which is built in such a way that as much as possible of what's inside stays relatively intact. That was the
one. The other was certainly the whole system of how the rescue glider is packed in, how the lines are gathered, the packing method—how the rescue glider or the round canopy, mostly, or cross canopy is packed, so that you don't need a specialist packer, but that someone can pack it after being shown twice and they can pack it so that it works. So the whole system there, where the rescue glider goes in, the bag where the relief supplies are in, with the outer container attached—actually the whole system. We also had the opportunity to test that here, and of course, we had an extreme amount of fun with it. So we were able to develop that
and we still produce the key components here in Switzerland. Everything that is sensitive, we still do here in Switzerland.
Let's slowly come to an end. I just have one question. We're sitting here with you in the workshop, and there are about a dozen sewing machines just standing around. Why do you need so many? These are
Industrial sewing machines. They can do one thing. For example, they can sew in a straight line. And only in a straight line. They can only sew in a straight line, but they can do it for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, over a long period of time. And they can also be fast. That's why we have so many machines here.
And as sewing nerds, let's just say, do you have like a personal relationship with every machine? I'd say a little bit, I'd say.
And as sewing nerds, I'd say, do you have like a personal relationship with every machine? I'd say you have a bit of one already. Yes, I think everyone has their favorite machine to some extent. What makes that so? What makes a machine a favorite? That's hard to say. Often it's just that you like sitting at it the most. You might have three machines that can actually do the same thing. But if you can choose, you always pick this one. Because it sounds different or because it's so
sews so cleanly?
It sounds different. It has a different handling.
The gas pedal, I'd say, reacts a bit differently. The settings are such small things. You can sew with any of them, no problem. But when they're all free and I can choose, then I think about it. Instead, I'm sitting at this one. So we
we have relationships with our sewing machines. Actually, it's scary, but that's how it is. We've already had a sewing machine. No, we don't talk to it, but mentally we do. Now do
forward or us, and we what? Well, mentally
you have connections, clearly. Yes, definitely. We also had one of the first sewing machines, a triple transport sewing machine for slightly heavier fabrics. I got it from Riccardo. I bought it, tinkered with it for a long time until it eventually ran on its own. And that's one of the first sewing machines we had. Back at our place in the shared apartment, we sewed the first things in a small cell. And we once said that if we no longer had this sewing machine, we could stop. Then we could go back to working on construction. Then it wouldn't be fun anymore. And now it isn't. It has a name too. It's a Singer sewing machine, but only Inge is written on it anymore.
That's Inge. Do all your machines have a name?
Yeah, more technical, actually. They're called D.D.L. or... So they're not the Inge we had.
and Susanne, she was the Inge.
But are sewing machines always feminine?
No, I wouldn't put it that way. Most of the names we have have more to do with what they can do. And maybe not how they look, but the binding, the triple zigzag, the gathering automatic, the gatherer, or the sewing field. So, even when speaking in Swiss German.
we're like, "That sounds like... Simon, you said at the D.D.L., you know, the bobbin tension is weird, can't you quickly check that?" And then Simon says, "Hey, but just quickly go to the tension regulator, you know, it runs better that way." Yeah,
Exactly, that's pretty much how it sounds. And
When you have these machines here, is there ever something like—to use sewing nerd speak again—where you say, there's a machine I absolutely have to have at some point? Like, you don't buy a new one every year saying you're expanding the range or want to produce something else. Is there one, like a dream machine, the high-end robot or whatever it is?
We like to dream, that's definitely true. But ultimately, whatever we buy or acquire in terms of new machines, there's always a reason—it makes a work step easier, more pleasant to sew, or at the very least, faster.
And ideally, one machine goes out and a new one comes in. Yeah. Because we've had many, we still have the Inge. But during this Inge era, we've had many sewing machines and made sure that they also... Or they go out because we simply have new machines.
They weren't broken, but you're saying something better is coming into the house now.
No, or something else. Exactly. We don't need these, but we need these specific ones, and therefore, ideally, they stay in the building, moving down a bit. They're still needed there.
Where do you see Flugsau in five or ten years? Do you have a vision of how you want to evolve, or do you only ever work in the moment? I have...
I always have quite a few visions. I'm one of those people who really enjoys thinking about the future, ten or fifteen years out. And there you come in as a different part.
I'm basically more of a here and now person. And sure, you think about where you want to be in five years, and I want to still be enjoying what I do in five years. I don't want a staff of ten people because I'm not striving for growth. I'd rather do fewer products. Yes, I do fewer, but what I do, I do myself, rather than just developing products and having everything produced externally. That's what I actually want, or what I enjoy. And not just... I just want to set up two production lines that produce the things for me, and yeah, so that the whole thing still remains fun.
And as I said, for example, I also enjoy making 200 safety belts for roller coasters; that work itself is something that gives me extreme pleasure, and it's not just the process of the work, but how can I simplify it with template building and
...and so on. How can I simplify it with template building and so on. That means you're developing your own assembly line work, so to speak. So you're not just the assembly line worker, but in a way, you're also the assembly line developer. Yes,
I really enjoy that. How can I build or tinker with something that makes serial production easier for me? So that sewing 200 pieces is also fun. Developing this apparatus or these contraptions, for example, I really enjoy that. I would call that a fetish.
...call a fetish, and that's the most wonderful thing to watch. It's just great to watch. Do you have a fetish too? Uh, many. Simon, tell me your fetish. What is
What's the nerdiest thing about André? The nerdiest thing is that he can practically bother me every single morning of the week over coffee with some new idea. And one of... or one idea out of the thousands, is then really cool.
So for me, it's like, he dreams and has visions and ideas, and he's also the brutally creative type. In the morning, it's sometimes a bit much when he texts me about everything he dreamed or what he's thinking. But he constantly comes up with actually great inputs where I'm like, "Ah, that's really cool." A lot of them. I also have to switch off a bit, turn on some selective hearing, because otherwise it would just be too much for me. But it's, like, very extremely creative and usually not thought through to the end, but just the idea. Somehow, an idea is out there.
And Simon, poor guy, he really has to listen to what's going through my head every single morning. It's exciting. We laugh too. Yeah, totally. We don't take it too seriously. No, you can't. And we sometimes feel sorry for each other when we have to listen to our trains of thought like that. But I think that's what makes us as Flugsau.
Yeah, well, if we weren't like that, we wouldn't be at the point we are now.
are. Every morning, do you dream about sewing? Do you dream about products like that too? No, but
I have a new idea almost every day. I think you could put it that way. And if not, then Simon is on vacation. That means you have an idea when he's there, so you can help him out with it.
What was the last one, where you say, a really cool idea out of the thousand he mentioned? Most of the time, it's...
how should I put it, I can't just say "this is the idea," but usually it stems from a whim—now, to put it a bit harshly—it results in a great solution for a problem. Where we're actually... Usually or often, it's like there's some idea there, but it's not for a problem or anything at all. That means you have
the idea and you think, for
What is the solution, more or less? It can happen, yeah. And then you're just standing there thinking, hmm, oh, hey André, you had an idea about that. And then, it's usually just the initial spark that eventually leads to something. If you can put it that way.
I think so. Yes.
Where do all these ideas come from?
It's just in my nature to want to approach things differently. I'm a fan,
when I can create something myself, no matter how complex it is. I always prefer... I'd rather do something new that works for me,
instead of taking something that already exists. And you just have... you have ideas, but they are also our... we have such cool clients. Yes. We have such great clients. And you talk to them on the phone. So you have a client every day who wants something, somehow... And that naturally gives us... or gives me... that to think about, and then I try to have solutions, and that manifests as... Yes, and if you
when you research a problem or think about how to solve it, maybe the solution comes up or the next one does. And that's how the whole thing develops. Sometimes it happens pretty quickly and there are several ideas out there. Or solutions. If you talk to your client in the evening, like, "Yeah, I'd like this and that," and then he tells me three or four different approaches in the morning, and then we discuss them briefly and usually you have a solution, or maybe even a week later.
Regarding the division of roles, if you're the source of ideas in so many things, what is it that you, Simon, would say is where I play to my strengths here?
So it's not that I'm the only one bringing ideas, I just provide the quantity of ideas. But Simon is exactly the same, so I wouldn't say I'm the... That means you have the
quantity and maybe he has the quality? No, a bit... No, no, he's maybe a qualitative filter.
Yes, clearly. That hits pretty close to the mark, yeah. But then you also need, I mean, you can't do it without ideas.
How should I put it? In some... In some things, I'm more of a theorist than others. Where, of course, the problem or the solution is right there, but I also think much further ahead about what the consequences are, also economically, how it works, how we have to do it with the billing and so on. I also do most of the accounting, let's say. The other person always feels bad when I'm sitting at the PC calculating and checking, then he says, I'm sorry, Simon. I still enjoy doing it.
And I would have hired someone for that a long time ago. Then he'd be sitting there in the office and I'd feel bad for him, but he still enjoys doing it and that's also good.
It's nice when those kinds of complementary qualities are definitely there. You can actually say that in general...
...say, because of how different we are, we complement each other very well. And it's only through that difference, and still getting along or finding solutions, that we are where we are today. Because, as I said, if we all had the same opinions about everything... No, that's just not possible. Yeah, then you wouldn't need two people.
Could you imagine continuing if one of us said, I don't want to do this anymore?
Yes, that day will come. At some point, I'll be fascinated. Yeah, I think so too. Then I'll be fascinated. Then I'll be fascinated. Then maybe I'll still walk around here. Then I will
fascinated. Then there are
yeah, another 20
Years to go, about that. Then there are about 20 years to go. But would you say that this passion you have, you have it mainly because you do it as a team? Or is this passion also from within yourselves, in the sense that you'd say, okay, if one of you weren't there, I would have still become such a visionary? I
I don't know if I... I don't know if I... Let's just say, would my... Let's just say, would my life have developed this way if I hadn't met other people. Basically, we both have this inside of us, because of what we did since our childhood, and we didn't know anything about each other, so whether we would have done something in this direction, you can't say.
He asked... He
asked if we would continue doing this. If we would keep going. For us, there was once a clear rule that anyone can say at any time if they don't want to anymore, and then we'll see. But everyone should be able to develop personally because we are actually self-employed, work relatively a lot, and we never wanted the other person to have to do something they didn't want to. By now, of course, we are already deeply involved in stories that simply don't just run for two or three years, but can run for, exaggeratedly speaking, decades.
And we have a certain responsibility that I think we'd like to take on for our customers. I think that fits quite well, definitely. But day X will come. So if I head off on my scooter from Graz to Dobel tomorrow, driving down the mountain, then you have to see. Yeah, then we'll see.
And we are already... Well, yeah, I don't really have those thoughts because if someone ever drops out, things will keep going, maybe in a completely different way. But let me just say, if I say I'd like to work on a construction site again after ten years, then we factor that in, and Flugsau will continue in its own way. I don't think it will just stop existing tomorrow. What we do have very clear...
Look, because we... we want to do something that's sustainable. And that means, for example, we have two servers running. One is grid-independent, the other isn't. We document our work processes. We store them. We have other people we train. We talk to each other. Look, like, so that basically anyone could do everything. In case, for example, something happens to one of them. But that takes a lot of time and you have to find your way. And young people like our worker show us how we can do that, how to make it work.
Now for the last question: paragliding and sewing—which is your passion? Which one could you do without more easily? Tough question.
Yeah, I think you don't have to...
I wouldn't want to give up anything.
That's not even possible. The question doesn't even make sense. It
The two belong together a bit. If you don't sew, you can't go paragliding. They go together. You can't do without sewing, because then you wouldn't have a paraglider.
So I can only put it this way. You need both. One doesn't work without the other. Can you turn it however you want?
Yeah, I couldn't really answer that question either, because there's no reason why I wouldn't be able to do one or the other.
Should I just leave it at that? You'll keep flying, you'll keep sewing, and you'll probably make many more great products for the paraglider scene. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks for all the interesting background and insights you've provided. And yes, have fun with your continued work with Flugsau. Thanks a lot.
Podz-Glidz is the podcast of the paragliding blog Loglites. Both are produced by me, Lucian Haas, and, although very different from Flugsau, are also the result of a lot of passion and manual work. If you enjoy what I offer here and would like to get even more of it, then I would be happy to receive your support in the form of a financial contribution. I'd like to say thank you for that in advance.
Podz-Glidz and Blueglides are available ad-free and without a paywall. However, there is a lot of time, work, and some costs behind them. As a supporter, you can help ensure that I can continue to offer and develop both projects for the paraglider scene. You decide how much you want to give. My non-binding suggestion is 60 euros a year, or about 5 euros a month. All the information on how your contribution reaches me can be found on the website www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com. There is a menu item called Support. Blueglides is spelled Lu-Glidz.
Until next time. Don't fall from the sky. Ciao.