If you initiate a spiral at all, you have to focus on that spiral, keep the initiation clearly in mind, and then start with pressure breathing and body tension. Because then you actually have all the right factors on board, and from there, you run no risk of suddenly running into Greyhound or Blackhound.
Podz-Glidz, the U-Glides Podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Tomi Inaychen and I am Lucian Haas.
The steep spiral is a maneuver that commands a lot of respect from many pilots. Not only are you essentially falling from the sky at up to 20 meters per second, but the centrifugal motion exerts many times the normal force of gravity on the body. Blood rushes down into the legs, the head is poorly supplied with oxygen, and if you're not careful, you can experience a blackout or even pass out. But that doesn't have to happen. There are ways to significantly alleviate the effects of even high G-forces on the body using muscle tension or a special breathing technique. Even intense spiraling can then be really fun, or at least bearable.
That's the most important thing. However, these techniques have to be learned. You can do that particularly well and safely in a special G-Force training. For that, you don't even have to go into the air; instead, you can comfortably simulate the spiral flight on a kind of carousel on the ground under instruction, with all its effects.
Tomi Ineichen leads these trainings at the Swiss G-Force GmbH in the Engelberg Valley. In this episode 143 of Podz-Glidz, the youthful leader of G-Force GmbH, 70 years old, tells us how to keep a clear head and maintain control even at more than 5G. Other topics include the influences of harness type, seating position, and your current form on the effects of G-forces.
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Tomi, you've been flying for...? For 37 years. Can you still remember your first spiral dive?
Ooh, that's a tough question. I have to think back a bit, but I think my last impression was probably my first high-performance flight. There were no steep spirals back then, but I think that was probably maybe three or four years before starting, or maybe even closer. At that time, of course, you still learned the steep spiral, and that was a maneuver from stall, full stall—you still learned that in training. So it must have been during flight school, so yes, before 37 years ago.
Did you have to, I mean, was it actually necessary to learn steep spirals back then? They were just parachutes anyway, they can go down, so you didn't need any kind of descent aid, did you?
Yes, of course. It was simply the added benefit to the descent. That you could get down even faster—I think that was actually the point of the training back then.
I mean, that was quite a long time ago, but maybe you can still remember a bit. Was the feeling of flying steep spirals, or even just the performance of those gliders and stuff, different back then compared to what it's like today with a modern glider?
Yes, definitely. I just remember that the whole flight experience back then was accompanied by an eerie rattling. It sounded like... like a flag flapping in the wind, and it was very specific. Everything around you made a real lot of noise. Of course, you'd look up very carefully to see if everything was still holding. Back then, there weren't round lines yet; they were actually more like parachute-like, rectangular lines, so you could call them ribbons. And they would flap so much in the wind, right? Exactly. The whole glider would flap. Back then, the Stabilo... it was all about those large entry openings. I remember I had a glider with nine entry openings, you can imagine that.
Those were almost like double sleeping bags, the large entry openings, so the individual cells. And they made a massive amount of noise. So that was... And of course, the launch row was also very, very special.
Yeah, I didn't live through that time, but I once saw a great picture, I think it was a nine-cell or something, where all the students stood inside the glider and everyone, everyone is looking out, like he's holding it up and everyone is looking out of one of these cells, it's like a honeycomb or something, where the pupae at the top are just sticking their heads out or something, and I thought, yeah, yeah, back then that was still possible, today it would be a bit harder to get inside somehow.
Yes, exactly. Well, those were so-called mass-hatch sleeping bags, you could say; you could actually fit a few people in there, it really was like that.
And have you been involved in... yes... have you experienced a lot of the whole paragliding history? Yes. I've been following the whole thing for 37 years. Would you say that some of these maneuvers, including the steep spiral, have become more demanding to fly for people over time?
Well, looking at it that way, I'd rather say that you can handle it better with the new gliders. And I think the stability of the paragliders has also become significantly better, naturally. And the bite that they... when you initiate a spiral, it looks completely different. I have to say, those are worlds apart, really.
In what way is it different? Do they bite more, since you mentioned the bite, or do they basically bite less and are easier to lead into and out of a steep spiral?
Yes, well, I think it depends—I mean, I think you can make the entry into the spiral much more gradual. I think the whole aircraft is significantly more stable, even in the air; it behaves more calmly, right? The bite, of course, if you push down a lot, that naturally happens, then you really take off downwards—that's also a huge difference compared to those old gliders I used to fly back then.
Do you still fly steep spirals today?
Yes, of course I still do that. I think it's important to be able to do it. For me, it's a safety factor that I can. I'm currently flying a two-liner, and it's sometimes quite difficult to do the big ears, and the spiral—actually, the steep spiral is one of the best ways to descend, of course. Sure, I also have an anti-ski device with me, I could also throw that in if it came to that. But usually, I manage it. I do it with the normal steep spiral.
In your flying career, have you ever flown such an extreme steep spiral that you were practically close to a blackout or greyout?
Yeah, I think in previous years, when I was a bit younger, I did that more and more intensely. Today, I've become a bit milder. But of course, with the techniques that I personally give to, how shall I put it, our participants, I naturally apply those techniques as well. Do you like G-forces? Actually, I do. It still feels okay, it doesn't really mess with me, though it does shake up my internal household a bit again. So I do like it. Actually, it's always a bit ambivalent. What don't you like?
What don't I like? Well, I don't like overly turbulent air. I don't particularly like flying in it, of course. Although I always feel like it depends on my mood for the day. And sometimes I enjoy it. Can it really drive me crazy? No, it doesn't. And sometimes my mental state is a bit more fragile. Then I'm more cautious and might change locations to somewhere a bit calmer. Or if it just doesn't suit me at all, I can just land.
You just used the word "participant." That's because today you're running the operations of the GeForce trainer at the Aerosport flight school in Engelberger Tal. How did that happen? I mean, how did you become that?
First, you have to say it's GeForce GmbH. There are two other companies on top of that. So there's also the Paragliding Shop and the Aerosport flight school. And we would like to separate them. Because it's important to us that it's GeForce GmbH for the actual GeForce training. As for how I joined, I've actually been working at Aerosport for a long time and also at the Paragliding Shop for three or four years now—a bit less lately. But I saw that this GeForce trainer was just sitting there, and depending on the day, it was supervised and started up by a few people. But it didn't really get going, if I may say so.
And my good friend Erich Lötscher, the owner of these three companies, asked me if I could take over the GeForce trainer. I accepted it as an interesting task as a freelancer. And then I started with the coordination of the dates, the registrations, all that stuff. And on top of that, I took over organizing the GeForce trainers. That was, I think, six or seven years ago.
So you do the organization. But how often do you actually still sit there in the harness yourself and do your laps on the trainer?
Yes, I do get on it every now and then. And of course, when I'm instructing a new trainee, they naturally want to see how their mentor still moves on there. Last time, my good colleague Tobias put me straight onto 5.5, without any warning. And that's already something I've gotten quite used to by now. I really managed to handle it. I actually did several laps. But without any support from below, that was really intense.
How many Gs can you handle at most? That was 5.5. Is that what you're saying? Is that basically your upper limit? Yeah,
I think I'll probably still be able to handle around 6G. But, well, it always depends on how you're feeling on any given day. And actually, out of everyone who gets on that trainer.
Well, you're not exactly the youngest, to put it mildly. Does anything change with age regarding the body and G-forces? Does the body become more susceptible to G-forces as you get older? Does it withstand less? Or would you say it stays the same? It's a matter of training. You can still fly at 6G at 70, if you really want to.
Yeah, I have to tell you a really interesting story now. We have a woman, she's about 67 or 68 years old, who comes to us every month for this G-force trainer. She works in a restaurant that works with people with intellectual disabilities. So, she has a mild disability. She loves it as a huge kick. She really comes by us every month. For a short period. She starts at 2.5G and then goes up to 7. And she can really hold out for two minutes over 7G. And I'm really amazed every time. That's top-tier stuff. And she just enjoys it.
She's also the person who's probably at most county fairs trying out all the machines that are available. For me, it's like, I get on it every now and then just to get my bearings. Like, how does it actually feel for the people sitting on it? And I always think the first round is usually the most intense. That's something we always get feedback on from the participants.
Let's talk a bit about the Geforce trainings, and let's start with the basics. Maybe not everyone listening has a clear picture of it. What actually is a Geforce trainer? How does it work? What do you do there?
So you have to imagine it like this. It's a thick tube. There's a lot of electronics inside, and it's bolted down to the floor. On top of that, there's a large motor. And at the very top of that, there's a beam. It's about five meters to the left and five meters to the right. A really thick piece. On the right side, there's a weight hanging from it, about 100, 120 kilos. And on the left side, there's a beam attached with straps. You can hang your own harness there. And the control actually happens via the brake line, which then uses a potentiometer to initiate the control—meaning the movement of the motor.
And we have another statement. We simply add this external brake to actually get the feeling, just like a spiral should also be flown during the exit. One
you can imagine it basically as a large carousel, but not like a chain carousel or anything with lots of seats; it's a beam, and someone sits on one side while the other side is the counterweight. But this thing then travels in a circle quite fast.
Exactly. So you have to imagine it like a swing, actually. The thick base at the bottom, the thick trunk that holds everything up. The motor is on top and then there's this beam. It's actually a round beam, sort of. So a round system facing outwards and that's what gets moved. You just said, as
Pilot, I'm sitting in there in the harness, I have my brakes in my hand, and then I pull the internal brake and with that I control something. What do I control with it? I mean
I actually give a signal to the motor and then the motor starts to spin. That means the rotation begins.
Normally, the Triforce trainer is there, who of course sets the G-force on a glider beforehand. That's a touchscreen and it's done in advance. That's what's promised to the person who then sits in it. And during the training, we normally start at about 1.5 G. That's a relatively harmless thing. And then we increase over time. Depending on how large the group is, we do more subdivisions. Or if it's a larger group, we also keep an eye on the time and maybe do slightly larger steps.
If I pull as the pilot now, you said I can control it. What exactly am I controlling with that—how fast the engine rotates, or what else?
Actually, it's like this: of course, through the movement—so if you work with the brake, moving it up or down—the machine would actually adapt to that control. But then you get this swaying, and it's very unpleasant. I mean, you'll get tossed back and forth on the trainer quite a bit. That's why we always say, if you're pressing, press it all the way to the stop, then we can also reach the G-force we've set. There are some people who pull very hesitantly. In those cases, we have to give the commander the word to pull a bit more on the brake so that the full performance can actually, how shall I put it, be reached. The pilot, of course, always has the option if they somehow panic or if it gets too intense, to simply either pull the brake all the way up to the end or let it slip, and then the machine will automatically slow down.
And what does the outer brake do now? Does it also steer, or is that just for the pilot's feel—like, do I have some resistance there too? And can I sort of pretend that I'm setting the outer brake? The outer brake.
doesn't actually have a function for us. There are other trainers who have used it that way, but we actually agreed on the rotation, on the pure rotation, and the whole setup on the trainer. And actually, that's enough.
If you're doing a GeForce training and spinning those rounds, what is the main goal of doing such a training from your perspective? What am I supposed to learn from it, or what can I learn from it? Other than saying I'm proud that I endured 5G or something, or that I was better than Peter next to me or whatever.
Yes, the important thing is actually to do it based on your own physical sensations. That means you shouldn't overexert yourself, but rather take some time to engage with the whole process of how the G-forces act on the body. You just need to feel it, and depending on that, you proceed more cautiously—maybe you feel the G-forces further down first and then increase them. We can easily increase that on the display. For example, you can start at 1.2 or 1.5, and depending on that, he can call out to me, "more, more, more." But it's simply important to us that these G-forces become noticeable, and of course, what's happening inside the body changes as well.
That means the blood is actually flowing slowly from the brain down to the feet. The more I feel the G-forces, the faster the blood actually flows into the feet. And that has consequences. For example? Well, of course, the first thing that's actually noticeable is that the optic nerve is no longer being properly bloodated. That affects the body's balance. And with increasing G-forces, you can first get visual impairments. That means it can lead to restricted fields of vision, a so-called tunnel vision can occur, or there can also be color changes.
And when we talk about these color changes, we're talking about a grey-out.
So, by Grey-Out, do you mean I can basically only see in black and white, or do individual colors drop out? Yes.
Or I
I don't see yellow anymore and the yellow is just brown. Or if I were to fly for the first time now, not on the GeForce Trainer, but like, I do a steep spiral and then, what would happen to me? And I could then understand, oh, I think I'm having a grey-out. I should probably bail out.
Yeah, exactly, so a grey-out can look different. It's possible that you only perceive individual colors correctly anymore, while the other colors might look grey or shimmering. But it's also possible that you see things pixelated, like the "Körpers" – you have a big newspaper pixel there. That's possible. That's one of the effects. Of course, it's worth mentioning that we have a color chart about two meters away from the harness attachment point on our GeForce Trainer. And that's actually a very important factor so that you have, how shall I put it, a fixpoint, so that your brain picks up this fixpoint and somehow gets it right.
That means it helps prevent your cerebellum from acting up and making you feel sick.
That means, when circling, you look at that fixed point. Exactly. And these are color circles. And then at some point, I might see these color circles turning into gray circles, then I know I'm slowly getting closer to the grey-out or I'm already right in the middle of it.
Exactly. Actually, this is a very important situation for us. So it's very important for us that the participants pick up on these bodily sensations and know what's actually happening to me as the walking forces increase. So after this grey-out, I can still push a bit further, but then additionally, a black-out could occur. That means it could be like a black canvas coming down from above. You can still hear, meaning you're still capable of acting. And it's of course extremely important that you at the latest then divert the spiral or try to press a bit less so that this black-out disappears again.
So a blackout itself isn't fainting yet. Because often in movies or something, when there's talk of a blackout, people always think, okay, he's really out in some way, he's fainted. But blackout just means my vision is completely gone. I'm blind in that case. Exactly,
you have a vision, so it's really black before your eyes. And in that moment, you're still capable of acting. So of course, the step to fainting is then very, very small. And obviously, if you get a blackout, you urgently have to do something, to divert it as quickly as possible. And it's also the case that the body reacts relatively quickly afterwards. And it's important to us, with these training sessions—this flow of blood from the brain to the feet—that we can face it, that the participant knows, aha, I can do something about this field of vision and do something against the grey-out or the blackout.
And that is, of course, the main goal of our G-force training. That's what we want to teach people. And for us, it's important that they also experiment a bit with their bodies afterwards, that they maybe take note of their muscle tension or perhaps try pressure breathing. I might come back to pressure breathing later, so they can see, ah, what actually happens to my body when I let go a bit, and what I can do again when I re-apply these exercises—that is, these techniques. And you're constantly amazed by it, and I hear it again and again from people: "Yes, I can do something. That opened things up immediately, I got a clear view again right away, I'm back, and I'm a hundred percent capable of acting."
And that is actually the main goal of our training.
This "immediately" part interests me again, because black-out, okay, the roll goes down. Is it really true that, no matter which techniques I'm talking about, if I apply them right away, that roll goes back up almost instantly? Can I really say that within a second my color vision is back, or am I still in a grey-out for 20 seconds until enough blood is back in the eye to say, "Okay, now I can see colors properly again"?
No, well, if you apply that immediately, you'll be surprised at how very, very quickly it opens up again. That means the black-out goes away. You have clear vision again. Depending on the situation, you might not have any more peripheral vision limitations either. But it's amazing how quickly the body reacts to that.
So that means, as a pilot, I have ways to control whether I get a black-out or a grey-out or not?
Definitely. And I think that's actually what we want to convey in the GeForce training—that they notice what's happening to their own bodies, what the visual conditions are, what changes they need to expect, and what countermeasures they can take to regain clear vision and be fully capable of acting again. That's actually the goal, essentially, of our GeForce training.
What is it that I, as a pilot, can do then? Let's talk about that. I'm in a GeForce trainer or in a normal steep spiral. I notice my body reacting to it. I might be getting a slow, small tunnel vision or something like that, and I don't want it to get to the point of a grey-out or black-out. What should I do as a pilot then? What can I do about it?
So on one hand, the good—how should I put it—the visual function is important, that you look for a fixed point anyway when spiraling. It can be on the glider, it might be the stabilizer, or it could be, for example, part of a carabiner, like where the line is hooked in, it could be there. Or something nearby. You can also look at your knees. There are also techniques, for example, I do it like this: I just look into the center of the rotation movement. So the important thing is simply to find a fixed point for yourself. A fixed point that...
doesn't change much from a visual standpoint. Exactly, exactly. You always get particularly dizzy when you look outside and the world zips past in high speed. Then the body doesn't know what to do anymore. Exactly. If you have a point that is relatively stable, then you can keep looking straight ahead, more or less.
So, of course, once you're off the carousel, the visual irritation is immediate. The eyes and the nerves can't really keep up with the angle of vision anymore. And that can mean you feel sick, depending on the person. So it could be the most intense experience or you could get a storm in your head, meaning you get confused. That can actually happen very quickly. And to intervene with these countermeasures, I see with seat harnesses, for example, that you can cross your legs, then push the legs back towards the seat at an angle. That can already help to block some of that blood flow.
With Pod-Harness, for example—which means lying harnesses—you can apply pressure to the plate at the front, just give it a bit of tension. Secondly, build up your abdominal muscles or overall body tension, so really tense up. That helps a lot. And furthermore, the so-called pressure breathing is actually something crucial. By pressure breathing, we mean that we use the body like when you blow into a trumpet, for example, you press your lips together very tightly. You can inhale either through your nose or through your mouth. And then you press your lips together very slowly, really press them together very tightly,
you press this air out. There is another way where you do something like fast pressure breathing. But we've actually had the best experience with pressing the air out as slowly as possible and really with a lot of pressure—you can actually feel the pressure on your own head and also a bit on the diaphragm. And those are such good cues for doing this pressure breathing correctly. During training, I pay close attention to hearing this breathing interval, meaning the pressure breathing. I also guide the participant by making sure it's really audible, that they make it audible for me.
So that I can also hear the interval of this pressure breathing, the breathing itself, really. That's important to me because pumping or hyperventilating would actually be really negative. That helps relatively little.
But in any case, hyperventilating is very fast inhalation and exhalation. You want to exhale for a long time, but then you have a fast inhalation, or you inhale for longer because then you can say, okay, that's also sort of a calming function. Sometimes people say, okay, inhale for four seconds, exhale for four seconds. That can happen sometimes when you have stressful situations in the air where you have to say, I need to calm down again. So, not with G-forces, but it's shaken you up. You're now on the next day's watch and you say, I'm just going to breathe out very thoroughly now. But that's not what you want; you want there to be some pressure behind it, but it's also really like a quick gasp of air and then making pressure again, something like that.
You could, you could do it that way, actually, but ideally—well, normally there's a specific stress situation involved, of course. And depending on that, you breathe faster. That's probably just how the body is wired, that the body switches like that. But if you try to really get into this breathing rhythm, it helps a lot, of course. The second technique would be really fast breathing. So almost a bit like pressing it through the palate. That's the second option. But we've actually agreed a bit that this pursed-lip breathing, where you press your lips together and slowly squeeze the air out, is actually ideal for us.
That's how we actually train.
How does that sound to you? Can you demonstrate that?
Alright, I'll give it a try.
So
Of course, I like it when it still kind of, how do they say in Switzerland, kind of sputters a bit, so it rattles a bit more with the lips, then I can obviously hear that a bit better from the outside. So I did squeeze it out relatively quickly now. Of course, you could keep the pressure in a bit longer and just squeeze it out even more slowly. But simply this awareness, and I find this especially important even if you're guiding a spiral at all, that you focus so much on this spiral. That you say, okay, now I'm doing it, and that you clearly visualize the induction once again and then start with pressure breathing and body tension.
Because then you actually have all the right factors on board, and therefore you run no risk of suddenly running into Greyhound or Blackhound.
I learned my technique, or rather someone explained it to me, and I found it very nice because it's so easy to understand. How you implement it is by simply pressing your tongue against the roof of your mouth as if you wanted to say "shit," but keeping the tongue as close to the palate as possible, and the "shit" still has to come out. And once you're already in that steep spiral and you're thinking, "Oh, shit," and you actually implement it consciously like that—sort of like how you press your lips together—you get that counter-pressure in your mouth just the same, and it works. So I've been using that perfectly ever since, not because it's "shit," but because it works so well, and I found it to be a very good guide for myself.
I used to play the trumpet myself, but I actually found the tongue against the palate technique even easier for me than the other one. But it's always about building up that counter-pressure accordingly.
I know that technique too. I think it's mainly used in Bavaria, and the second trainer will implement that technique. I know that one as well. We've tried it a few times already and might explain it to people again in the future, so they know that this second technique exists too. For us, the pressure breathing with the lip compression was actually what was most effective for us until now. And that's actually what the participants report back to us. They tell us, like, if I quickly ease off the pressure breathing a bit and I feel my field of vision narrowing, it can even lead to a blackout, and then I resume that pressure breathing, I notice immediately that it opens up again, it becomes bright.
I can see clearly again. That's basically the feedback we get from our participants. But the other technique also applies. That's right.
What actually happens during pressure breathing, physiologically speaking? Is it just that I create this pressure so that, basically, the veins—either through the muscles in the neck or whatever—get slightly constricted, and because of that, the blood stays in the head longer, maintaining the brain's oxygen supply for longer, and then you take a quick breath, maybe some new blood rushes in, and then you create that pressure again and it holds it back again, or what is happening there?
Yeah, I think, on one hand, blood will always be flowing out, but through this pressure breathing, you can probably prevent that outflow a bit by putting pressure on the veins and your breathing. It's actually about—well, you can't completely block it, the blood will move from the head to the feet due to gravity one way or another. You can't stop that, but you can slow it down or reduce it a bit, let's say, through this pressure breathing and body tension.
When is the best time to start with this pressure breathing? Before a steep spiral, or only then when I notice, okay, now it's really getting intense, then I start with it a bit? Or when it starts to go gray before my eyes, do I have to really get going? What's your experience with that?
So I usually tell people, if you want to do a really powerful spiral, depending on the situation—like if you're under a cloud, the cloud is moving, and you have to get away quickly—then I'd start with the whole repertoire right away. You don't actually get into a situation where you have to switch it on at that point. I think that would be the ideal way. But depending on it, if you're entering very hesitantly, you can take your time. Pay attention to your body, pay attention to your body's signals. Of course, pay attention to your surroundings too. You can't be whistling through the glider in the lower levels while spiraling down. That's important for you too. You also have to keep an eye on your altitude. That's obviously enormously important. And I think you can just add one thing or another.
and see how that feels.
And it's best to hold on until the end of the spiral. So does that help basically? Some people are like, after the spiral they're out, then they still feel a bit, not dazed, but maybe still in their head. It's spinning, like it's still spinning a bit afterwards. Can this feeling also be reduced through this pressing breath?
Yes, you can do that well. And we also recommend that to the participants. It's always like that, of course. We see it on the trainer too. It's like, they go up to this imagined G-force. They rotate, do the pressure breathing, and engage their body tension. And as soon as I—I have a horn, if I honk twice, it means release. And when they hear that, practically all the body tension goes away, the pressure breathing stops too. So the person feels like, wow, now it's slowly coming down again. And that's actually exactly the situation where, right then, these bodily signals occur—that you suddenly go black, or you have tunnel vision, or you get a storm in your head.
That's when it happens. And that's why I keep recommending that as long as our trainer is spinning, for example, it's important to maintain that pressure breathing and body tension. Maybe even wait a little bit once the training device stops; in any case, keep the fixation on that disc on our trainer the whole time so that the cerebellum really has a point of focus. Then you'll actually make it through without any harm.
But you're saying, with this horn, just to make sure I understand, it's like a signal for people, oh, I did it. And for many of them, the tension basically drops right then. Exactly. And
then, in
at this point, it's where the blood really rushes to your feet and your head goes blank. That's how it is. And they have a blackout or something like that.
Yeah, it can happen. I mean, not with everyone, but it's actually possible. Of course, it becomes much more apparent with high G-forces. So, at a G-force of maybe 4, or three and a half, or four and a half, you might feel it even less, depending on the situation. But of course, not every participant reacts to these G-forces in the same way. Just a bit more to explain the horn. It obviously has to be loud because as the G-forces increase, there's a lot of noise. You hear a rushing sound in your ears and you can't perceive much from the outside anymore. And this horn, I can hear it, it sounds really loud, and even at 7G, you can hear the horn.
The horn is normally used when the G-force is reached. I honk once, and if I honk a second time, it means to release the signal. And afterwards, it's important that you maintain your fixation on the window, your body tension, and your pressure breathing until our trainer says so, and you're not allowed to be dazed, but have to feel fit again, also so you can get out afterwards.
Based on your experience, what kind of G-forces can an average pilot who comes to you actually handle? What can they take if they haven't done much training before—I mean, if they're coming to you for the first time, is it over for most of them at 3G, or are there some who say they sit down for the first time and it goes all the way up to 6?
Interestingly, the first round—and we start at 1.5, meaning 1.5 times body weight—is actually the hardest for everyone. They usually say either the braking was terrible for me or the acceleration was terrible for me. It's actually very, very different. And we notice that depending on how someone gives us feedback, which is why I think it's very, very important for us to be able to tailor this entire training session individually to each person, to really take them under our wing. We might give them a few tips and say, for example, okay, try to bring in a bit of body tension, try to just breathe calmly and deeply first so that you feel a bit more comfortable on the trainer.
And then, depending on the situation, you can call out to us if you want the increase, that the increase is possible, but always try to stay with yourself, to feel how you're actually doing. And I've already had some very interesting phenomena there. Someone came in who almost blacked out at 1.2, which is the lowest setting on our G-force trainer; he even wrote to me before the training that he feels absolutely uncomfortable in the air, especially if there are own-axis or maybe double-axis turns. And he said it would quickly go black before his eyes. That really put me on high alert.
I said, then you absolutely have to come by, because it's about your safety and the safety of the pilots around you. That was actually important. And that's why I saw it as the fact that those people really need to be specifically supervised. Interestingly, most people say, "Yeah, 1.5 was already my limit. I think I can manage about two, maybe two and a half." But our experience has shown that the people who actually communicated that to us are the ones who then crank it up to seven. That's a phenomenon, man.
I don't know if you explain the pressure breathing to the people from the very beginning, telling them they should do it right away, or if you tell them to try it out first and then show them what it feels like when you use the corresponding techniques with body tension and pressure breathing. Is that something you can say from your experience—that with the proper breathing and body tension techniques, can a pilot typically push past that threshold where it starts getting uncomfortable by, say, one, two, or three Gs? Is there a point where you'd say that through pressure breathing alone, you can basically achieve almost double what you could before?
So it's interesting. It's already the case that the body actually starts getting used to the counter-forces during training. They say that when you're actually flying, out there, the body signals are always the same. But if I train the whole thing, then I can really counteract that. And that's also what we see with us on the G-force trainer. So the people who say, "Yeah, at two, I think I'm done," they are then really genuinely surprised by what they can suddenly achieve in terms of time during the whole training. And there are really many—or most, many—who can maybe even crank it up to seven. And they are really surprised.
Depending on the case, it's only for a few seconds because the body's signals increase enormously and that makes it very difficult.
What do you actually fly with those classic normal steep spirals? Like, let's say, up to 15 meters per second. What kind of G-load do you actually reach there?
classically? Well, you can assume that for maybe beginner gliders or maybe gliders that go up to A-gliders, B-gliders, Low-B for example. With those, you can reach G-forces of about four plus minus four, four and a half. Those are usually gliders that maybe have shorter lines. Longliners, so maybe high-performance gliders. With those, you can maybe reach G-forces up to five, up to 5.5 plus. I've also heard it's possible to reach 7G. I think that's mainly maybe with acro-gliders. But of course, that's the G-load for only a few fractions of a second or seconds. Otherwise, usually with us, we assume,
that for normal gliders, it's mostly around four plus or minus. Interestingly, and I might have to add something here, we don't just have pilots, so paragliding enthusiasts, visiting us at the testing center. Companies also come by to bring us new harnesses, and for those, they have to prove it afterwards for the seal of quality; they have to make recordings at four Gs with a camera, with a GoPro or something, to show that this reserve parachute
lets deploy without any problems. Of course, the reserve glider is a dummy; you've packed it. You just pull it and then hold it in your hand. And there are also regulations regarding whether it's pulled upwards, downwards, or to the side. And that's how the cut is actually applied on most harnesses from the manufacturers who visit us. We, of course, also provide the companies with a certificate. I also look at the whole process from the outside to see how it works. Companies can obtain a certificate from us. It then states how it's pulled, in which positions, and whether the reserve glider—the dummy that's built in—comes out quickly and in approximately what time.
And that gets recorded in this certificate and is then signed and issued by the test pilot who comes to see us, by me, and a coordinator. And for that, you can assume that most do about four, and longliners maybe five or 5.5, G-forces.
That means, I mean, those are already intense G-forces where you should definitely be using some kind of techniques as a pilot to counteract them. So, things like the Valsalva maneuver, body tension, and so on. Why aren't these kinds of techniques basically learned right away during training?
Yeah, we actually asked ourselves that too. And it's quite interesting for us—you have to imagine, I don't know how it is in Germany, but in Switzerland, steep spirals aren't flown. That was taken out of the training program years ago. You do fast circles, like figure-eights or double circles, which might be used for the exam later, or maybe spiral approaches. So, the people in training don't actually ever get the chance or the situation where they can actually initiate a spiral or even a steep spiral. For us as trainers, of course, it's like this: we'd actually wish that, just like with driving students, for example...
once they've passed the exam, they also have to do a centrifuge course and do speed training in order to get their license legalized. And our approach would actually be that this should be equated for paragliding students, both male and female pilots. So that they should complete a speed training, and of course, it can be done in combination with an SIV training. That way, I sometimes tell them, you can actually experience the G-forces under laboratory conditions, and afterwards you can experience a spiral with those G-forces in the air during an SIV training. That would be a great combination, and I think it would actually make the paragliding sport a bit safer.
I want to highlight a few details again. One thing is, you mentioned it earlier in a different context, but it also has to do with your form for the day. There are days when you can handle a lot of G-forces, and on other days you go flying and handle a lot of turbulence—it doesn't have to be a huge G-force, but you can handle a lot of shaking and say, I'm feeling really relaxed today.
That doesn't fit today. How much of an impact would you say that kind of daily form actually have on what you can endure in terms of G-force?
So that's, how should I put it, actually tied to your overall condition. I feel it myself too. Sometimes, like today, I have no desire to just power through, and I'll probably also [struggle] with a spiral.
to implement. I mean, I think the whole psyche is crucial there. Also when flying, or then, how one implements a spiral. I think that goes along with it.
And then there are also people who take medication.
Do you see any patterns with the people who come to you? Like, maybe there are people who have to take blood thinners or something. Are there any effects? Or are there medications where you'd have to say, hey, if you're taking this, it's best not to fly any steep spirals at all because that's borderline?
Yes, of course, the participants who come to us actually have to sign, so to speak, a training waiver with us. And that basically describes what their physical condition is like. So, the person who signs and then gets on our trainer should be aware of how their body functions, whether they are on blood thinners, how they react. And most people do actually come by and explain that to us. And then, of course, we handle the whole thing much more carefully. It's just about individual training for the specific person.
In that case, it's important to factor in those kinds of factors into the entire training process, of course.
What about high blood pressure and low blood pressure? Do you notice differences there? Do people with high blood pressure, for example, handle more walking load because the blood pressure might also be higher in the head, and it works better then? Or...
hard to say. To be honest, we haven't seen any major differences so far. I just think the whole physical condition—until he hits a wall and realizes, "Okay, my body and my psyche have reached their limit"—that's obviously the most important thing, that he reports that to us. And he feels it too. And we also keep telling the participants over and over, don't go full out with your load, see how it feels for you,
You have to feel comfortable; we don't want you lying there feeling miserable and awful, so don't overexert yourselves. And most people take that well, and I think that's naturally the coach's job—to start sensing the people a bit and notice where the limits might be and then accompany them. But usually, it's of course the case that those,
who come to us with some prior issues or a bit of anxiety, when they see how much they've managed to do, they go home completely happy feeling like, wow, I did something great today. It's not like someone who can handle 3.5 or 4G forces—or even a bit less—is doing less than the person who reaches 7G effortlessly or with some effort. I think both are doing a huge job and, physically speaking, it's a good level of exertion for everyone.
And are there differences in harnesses?
Yes. A
With a lying harness, I basically keep my feet higher relative to my body axis. Is it possible that less blood then flows into the feet and more stays in the central body, and therefore basically more is left over for the head?
Is that an advantage?
We've noticed that quite a bit lately. I wouldn't say it's completely general, but I see it as the fact that, due to the position of the legs, blood flows away a bit less quickly in lying harnesses than in seat harnesses. I'd say that's what we can observe. But of course, it also depends on how the whole person deals with the body tension, the pressure breathing, and these G-forces afterwards. Maybe a bit more on harnesses. That's a good point you just made. We often see that most harnesses I hook up for the first time at the G-Force Trainer are completely set up incorrectly.
So with most of them, especially seat harnesses, the pilot somehow hangs way back.
I have to adjust the harness in almost 95 percent of cases. That's also an advantage for us, because we can see that if the people are hanging too far back at an angle, the load—especially on the chin and the back—is enormously higher as the G-forces increase than if you're sitting somewhat straighter in the seat. And there are many, almost 90 percent of harnesses, that have to be adjusted. With the lie-down harnesses, I also see things where the leg bag is hanging somehow up in the air, so it doesn't necessarily point five degrees downwards. I often have to adjust a lot there too. That's mainly what we actually explain at the beginning, that we first look at the adjustment of the harness.
Of course, we also check if the reserve parachute is packed correctly with the pins. We don't want it to open, otherwise it would probably snow colorful bits in the space because it would get tangled and then shred. So there are many things that we naturally also look at a bit in theory beforehand. For me, it's also very interesting—this is a topic that really moves me—I always advise people again and again when buying a new harness that they should really look at the harness. It shouldn't just have a nice shape or a nice color or be very light, but it should above all be practical in that the reserve parachute has enough storage space, because lately we're seeing many very light,
ultralight harnesses that simply have such a small reserve parachute compartment that you can't even fit a normal reserve parachute in it. That gave us some food for thought, and of course, with the liege harnesses or the seat harnesses, it should be such that the storage space at the bottom isn't compressed too much at higher G-forces. Otherwise, you could have such high pull forces when deploying your reserve parachute that you can barely get it out of the container. And we've often already done many tests with harnesses that we personally had a dummy installed in and then looked at how it could be deployed, and we were shocked sometimes.
We've already had to write to companies and ask them for an improvement, a refinement of this reserve parachute situation, because what we've experienced there was sometimes pretty intense. And that's why I have to say it again, I have to chuckle a bit when I see those gym swing exercises where they pull out a dummy; that just doesn't correspond to reality. Because the reality with the pressure from the G-forces, from the centrifugal force of the pilot below on the reserve parachute compartment, is completely different, and they compress the reserve parachute compartment slightly, you can say what you want, and then the reserve parachute still has to be able to deploy at 4G or 4.5G. And we actually really explain that to the participants, that right there
...should really pay attention to the emergency glider situation.
Are there some types of harnesses where you say, I'm not hooking it up at all, because you say, okay, it passes the test, the prescribed load test, but I don't want to be tossing it around with high G-forces on my GeForce trainer; I don't quite trust that harness. That
we have that, we do that too, and especially these light harnesses, you know the Hike & Fly harnesses, those almost strap-like harnesses, they are of course extremely light, they are of course great, I have one of those myself, but with those we go maybe up to about 4.5 to 5, we go up with them, and also of course the lying harnesses that are built so lightly, we're rather cautious with those. We actually always have two harnesses with us that we've prepared, we've also equipped them with parachute dummies, so for us it's very important that the participant, male or female, also pulls this parachute dummy once at a certain G-force that they can choose themselves.
And then they're like, I'm still quite surprised by how the G-forces act and that you really have to pull the reserve parachute out by the handle; it's hanging on a safety line, it's also zipped up, it can't open on its own, but people really like that, and that's why I think it should be done. We've also had groups there who had their own reserve parachutes packed in bags and pulled them too; of course, it takes an incredible amount of effort, you need several people there, and in our case, it's just that we make our dummy harnesses available to everyone, so they can also clip onto the trainer backwards and pull this reserve parachute once, or forwards, because it's not always the case that it's easy to pull the reserve parachute while flying nicely, but also some special
...strange situation where you still have to pull it when things get serious.
During all the Defaust trainings you've participated in or led, etc., have there ever been any negative incidents? Like, has a harness ever actually ripped during a tumble, and you had to do an emergency brake, or any other things where you'd say it actually became dangerous?
So we basically assume that the pilots' equipment is in good order. We have that in our agreement, that we assume they aren't showing up with some kind of junk material. But it has actually happened several times that something suddenly gets ripped off and starts flying around the room. Everyone ducks their head, then something clatters somewhere. Or we've also noticed cracks. And we are really, really careful about that. And surprisingly, I have to say, we explain to the people that they should send the harness back to the company.
We also try to get in touch with the company that manufactured the harness ourselves and try to ensure that something gets changed. The harness either needs to be replaced or simply properly maintained, or the owner wants it to be maintained.
Would you say that from the trends you're seeing, including in harness construction or something like that, there's a trend back toward the better? Or is it actually something where this lightweight trend—where everything still has to be lighter and more suitable for hike and fly and whatnot—is actually a trend that one has to say is concerning from a safety perspective?
Yeah, I think nobody wants to lug around extra kilos. And that's why this trend is very noticeable for us too. But we're often a bit cautious about it. I mean, of course, when we sell these harnesses in our paragliding shop, we explain the pros and cons of each individual harness. But the trend is such that most people are going back to lightweight harnesses. We're surprised every now and then. It can happen that one of these lightweight harnesses ends up with us where the seams have ripped, for example during an SIV training where the reserve parachute is deployed. Suddenly, there might be pendulum or oscillation movements hitting this harness, which really aren't good for the harness at all.
And we've had cases where we received harnesses that had a tear in them or where something needed to be sewn. So that's how it is. But the trend is probably unstoppable. That's why we naturally try to show people the semi-light harnesses and maybe explain the weight difference a bit. And depending on that, someone might say, "Yeah, I think I'll go for a semi-light harness, it might last me longer." And I don't know. We still have little experience with these ultra-light harnesses. Every now and then someone sends one over and then we take a look at it, see where it needs to be sewn and so on.
But the trend is probably unstoppable. How
How often should you actually do a GeForce training from your perspective? You're someone who, in a sense, makes a living from this. We could say, of course, that it's best to do it every year or something. With SIV training, you could also say it makes sense to keep practicing the movement over and over. With a GeForce training, you could also argue that once you've understood what it's actually about, you wouldn't need to do it again. Or would you say there are also benefits to doing it two or three times?
Yes, I think there are definitely advantages to doing it again. I mean, if you've actually understood the exercises—those counter-measures—and use them frequently while flying, then you've already learned a lot. I'd maybe estimate it at a few times, and it's like, I've already spoken with different SIV trainers, including Michael Lesler. Michael Lesler once said that if I were doing an SIV training on a Saturday, if I had such a machine nearby, I would put everyone on this GeForce trainer first in the evening, before the SIV training, because I don't know how they'll react during a spiral afterwards, whether they'll immediately kick out, and then I can give the radio commands, but they just won't react anymore.
So I'd see that as a good combination, if someone does an SIV training every few years, that they might feel those G-forces again beforehand, which is also what SIKU wants to do with his exercises, but that would certainly be a good thing. The people who then
get there and come back for a second or third time, do they have different requirements?
Yes, so in some cases they naturally move to higher forces a bit earlier, but many actually do the whole thing per 10, as we've actually prepared the training preparations, they actually take that in right away. Sometimes we could perhaps turn it up a bit higher, then the people starting at the bottom can see what it looks like further up afterwards and can also imagine a bit of what's below that. It's interesting, we've had a few people for second trainings lately who also completed such trainings with us before an SIV training, but many
most people only do it once. So, it's definitely recommended to do it several times before a training session, but it's not a must.
Can I also fly backwards on the GeForce Trainer? I mean...
could I
a kind of belly flying with the GeForce Trainer?
Yes, we can hang the person upside down and then they'll obviously have a similar effect, or for example, after you have a flow collapse and the whole rig rotates backward, we can actually simulate that too. And for many, it's often also a way to see what it feels like to pull the reserve glider. But the whole body position changes, of course. Usually, the feet go up and the head goes down, and they might have to find a different perspective, a different fixed point, because depending on it, the wing disappears through the harness. Then there's something on the trainer itself that you have to use as a fixed point.
Why do the feet go up? I don't quite understand that. Because of the rotation, the body just gets pushed, so the head goes down and the feet come up. With the whole rotation, that's actually how it's explained physically.
Does that also happen during a normal set when I do the fly, that the feet come up more? Or is that a G-Force specialty?
I think it's probably a G-Force specialty. I have to say, I haven't looked at a set myself yet.
But you'd have to ask the acro guys. They can obviously give you better information on that.
And when you're flying backwards, are the G-forces you endure still the same? Or would you say the body reacts differently because, in backward flight, it somehow processes things differently in the head?
I hear that from some people too, who say it feels completely different. So, there are people who have said it feels much more pleasant, or others who can't handle it at all; as soon as they start turning, they already feel like, wow, no, that's not happening. And then they stop turning already, so they stop the machine themselves. So, you can't really explain that as a general rule.
Tommi, towards the end, I'd like to make a bit of a topic jump. We had a brief preliminary talk or exchanged a few emails, and you mentioned a very interesting topic where I thought I'd like you to explain it to me in a bit more detail. You said something about the generation of new flight students since the Corona period, that people tick a bit differently somehow. What is different about that?
Yeah, well, from what I can tell, they're mostly city people. So they probably didn't have as much to do with the mountains back in their youth or as toddlers or children. They've actually been coming in since the Corona crisis—it was actually interesting that, especially during the Corona crisis, the Swiss were probably allowed to move around more than the Germans. We weren't grounded right away, so we could actually get out there. And there was really the opportunity, after a short break—a training break, because of Corona—where many people thought, "Yeah, what am I doing this summer?" Or, "I can't travel, I can't go anywhere."
Oh, paragliding might still be something. I'm not really close to others either, except maybe during the training with a mask. But I'm actually moving in the air. And that triggered a bit of a boom again. And that's how they actually came back. Interestingly, we keep finding that many people didn't really engage with paragliding that much. Maybe they did the first high flight, two, three flights, then after four or five flights, that was it. And then they suddenly didn't show up for months, didn't come back, and then they come by again, maybe after months. And we practically start from zero again.
We have to look at them again, how they put on their harness, how they sort the glider. So sometimes that is very, very difficult. And I sometimes just get this feeling, yeah, wouldn't they be better off somewhere else? Is paragliding really something that you or he or she wants to do? Or is it just not comparable to, like, playing minigolf, riding a bike, or somehow playing chess. I think paragliding is an engagement with aviation and that should be as serious as possible. And that's how we envision the training operation too, that people then just come regularly,
...learn more and don't always have to start from scratch. So, this is really a very specific trend. We also have a large number of students at the moment, but when we see how many active flyers we have there, it's clearly on the list of non-flyers or occasional flyers who come to us regularly.
Is that a lasting trend, or was it just a boom during the Corona period? Would you say it was just this one or two-year generation—what do you call it, this "short-year generation"—that we're still dragging along a bit, but the flight students coming in now are, from your perspective, the more normal ones who have more interest in flying? Or does it still persist that because of this boom, people are telling others about it, and then friends say, "I want to try that too," meaning you're still carrying these Corona aftereffects as a flight school for a few more years?
Yes, I think on one hand, it's certainly because of Corona, but I believe we're actually still seeing the trend and it's always surprising—suddenly I see a person standing there with us during a briefing or somewhere and I think, oh, I still know them somehow, but I forgot their name ages ago, and they're suddenly coming back. And of course, we don't shy away from them having to go back to the practice slope every now and then, to just start and, how shall I put it, learn to land again on the practice slope, because otherwise, it's just too risky for us to let them out somehow on a perhaps later, perhaps more difficult starting slope; that would be a bit too risky for us, and I still see the trend echoing a bit.
and we really try to talk to these people and try to win them back to flying a bit more, and if that doesn't stick, well, there's not much more we can really do, but it's obviously important to us that safety during the training is guaranteed, that people don't just come back who haven't touched anything for months and think, yeah, that'll be easy and I'll be back in the air, that's just a bit too risky for us.
That means, for them, paragliding basically has something of an event character, or even just the training itself—you don't necessarily have to become an independent pilot at some point, but rather, I have a weekend off again, hey, I could go paragliding for a bit, I'll go to the flight school again, they'll launch me out there, they'll show me the whole thing, and I've had my adventure weekend again, and that's enough to last for the next six months.
Yes, we see this exact trend more and more often, and I don't think it's good. I believe we agree that paragliding is somewhat demanding and that you really have to perform certain things in between that might not always occur so easily while flying, and you have to be prepared and able to rely on yourself. That is enormously important.
Are there still enough flight students left who you'd say still have that "flying instinct" or "flying mindset," and you'd say these city kids who just see it as an event character are actually just adding on top? Like, the basis is there, and now these city kids are joining in, and you could basically say as a flight school, sometimes they're a bit annoying, but at least we can make money off them, so we'll just drag them along too?
No, I mean, the ones we actually have in the school now are interested, they ask questions, they engage with the whole story, they watch YouTube videos or we recommend certain things for them to watch, we do ground handling with these people, they show up too, so you can already see if they're interested, if they want it, they want to move forward, they might want to have it after half a year or the next if it fits and they have the flying skills that we certify for them, that's actually a good trend, so there are both those who worry us and the others who really stick with it, that's actually still the old character that I probably also had back when I started.
so I think that's the case with them too.
You could use the GeForce Trainer as a way to separate the wheat from the chaff, by just taking the people you've visited—the ones where you're thinking, "I don't see these guys becoming pilots"—and you put them on it and crank it up to 5G until they're almost blacking out, and you say, "Well, that can happen to you while flying; I don't know, if you can't handle that, maybe you're just not cut out for it."
suitable. So, that can happen, but we might use the G-force trainer if the weather situation suddenly changes. Maybe we've spent half a morning training under good conditions and suddenly something pulls in or a lot of valley wind picks up, making it a bit tricky for the flight students; then we have our G-force trainer. And of course, most of our flight students get onto this G-force trainer relatively quickly and can adapt to it. Maybe another trend, it's not just that we have paragliders or flight students on the G-force trainer, we also have pedestrians every now and then; quite a few of them reach out because they want to take a look once.
how their whole history looks, how much G-force they can handle, and they look forward to that. We also had an acro-piloting group with sports planes who contacted us. What we can also offer now are even kiting enthusiasts; we have a trapezoid frame that we can install and they then try to pull emergency gliders, how to withstand G-forces, in the range of what a kite reaches in terms of G-forces, but there we have an additional trainer who is a flight instructor for kites. So that's roughly the range we can cover.
How long
do you still want to go paragliding? I keep coming back to it, I think, as long as I feel comfortable, and I really listen to my gut feeling, and that's something I always tell others too, listen to your gut feeling, if it gets choppy or rough out there, listen, think, or fly down or get out of there, and as long as I'm still having fun, I'm actually still having fun, I might have, I've already said goodbye to the D-high performers about a year ago, I had some really nice flights, never had anything actually, and that's actually the trend for me now, that I want to continue flying with good gear that suits me, and I think that should be possible for me after a few years.
I wish that for you too, Tommy. Thanks so much for telling me all about the GeForce Trainer and everything one can know, learn, and experience there—from blackouts and greyouts to shifting colors, body tension, and breathing techniques.
Exactly, and theory of course, theory on top of that.
Thanks for that, and I hope you can still get some aircraft generations actually flying, for which a GeForce training would be genuinely useful and not just an event character.
Yes, wonderful, thank you very much. And of course, I wish you great flights as well, enjoy them, and thank you so much for your wonderful contributions, which I often listen to more frequently. Thanks a lot. Bots
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