I actually managed to try it out for about a year. I flew the 10.02 and had it in size S for a season, and then I switched to size MS. It's well known that smaller gliders are generally harder to fly—that they, for example, react more violently in extreme situations and that the performance isn't as good. But what really surprised me was how much less work you have in the air with this larger glider.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Ramona
Eckert and
Lucian Haas on the mic.
Actually, paragliding isn't a sport where you'd expect to see differences in performance between men and women. Nevertheless, it's still rare for a female pilot to actually reach the top of the overall standings in competitions. When it happens, it always causes a stir and a sense of wonder in the scene. This year, Ramona Eckert won the overall standings of the German cross-country flight championship. It's the first time a woman has managed to do this. However, this achievement isn't entirely surprising. Ramona has been among the top of the German XC scene for years and has already won the title of German Champion three times. She has also multiple times been among the top 3 in the women's world rankings of the XContest.
What this first overall victory means to her, Ramona tells us in this episode 145 of Podz-Glidz.
We talk about what fascinates her about performance-oriented flying. It's about ambition and persistence, dealing with risk, physical training in the gym, having an eye for the good days, the advantage and burden of flying with ballast, and visualizing flight routes. If you enjoy Podz-Glidz, why not support my work as a promoter? You can find out how easy it is on the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the "Fördern" page.
Ramona, you won the overall ranking in this just-concluded season of the DRV XContest. And that's the first time a woman has stood at the very top there. Does that mean anything to you?
Yes, well, of course I'm happy that I achieved this, especially since it didn't just happen overnight, but also because I've consistently landed in the top 10 of the German cross-country pilots over the past few years. But the title doesn't mean that much to me; it's simply that I had a good year, got to fly with friends, and had some beautiful flights.
But this thing about being the first woman is still highlighted everywhere, even on the DRV website and all that, as if it were some special achievement. Do you see it as a special achievement for yourself, like saying, "As a woman, I managed to do this and now beat the men"? Or is that not important to you at all? To me...
it's actually really not that important, because I think that gender isn't the deciding factor in determining how well someone flies. I think rather that your own motivation, the preparation, the training, or simply the commitment—being willing to put in the work—that's much more decisive.
What is the reason then that in these competitions, both national and international, women are still relatively rarely seen on the overall podiums?
I think that's mainly because, if you look at the distribution of men and women in paragliding—my latest figures were from 2023—less than ten percent of pilots are women, so there's simply a much smaller number of women who are able to participate in the first place.
And of the women who can participate, are there also only a few who can fly along at this high international level?
Exactly, there are just even fewer who can fly at that level at all.
Do you see yourself as an action pilot? As an exceptional pilot?
I don't think I'm an exceptional pilot, but I do think I'm a very passionate one. So when I fly, I want to enjoy it, and I have fun on every flight I do.
Where would you see your strengths, your own assessment of your strengths when flying? What makes your flying style unique?
I think if you asked me that question, many of my friends would say that I fly very persistently, and I see it that way too. Of course, it's always important to recognize good flying days and, naturally, to adjust your flight plan accordingly on those days. So, it doesn't do me any good if I see a good flying day but then plan the triangle, for example, way too large. It's just about reading the conditions in such a way that I know how large I can plan my flight, so that in an ideal case, I can still close it at the end.
How does that persistence manifest?
It shows in the fact that I'll sometimes spend an hour at one spot until it finally goes back up. So, if I don't have to land somewhere because I'm just sinking or something, I don't see why I shouldn't keep at it. It's often the case that thermals are very cyclical, and if you just stay persistent and try to stay climbing, it can sometimes reward you with some really beautiful flights. For example, I had a flight recently where I was below the inversion for an hour and really fought hard to get back up. The pilots next to me actually gave up and went down to land. But I knew that if I could get past this one difficult section, the flight could become very, very beautiful afterwards. And it did. And of course, I was incredibly happy and proud that I managed to do it.
Where does this persistence come from? Are you generally such a persistent person in life? Or is it in flying where you basically live out this character trait?
I think I've always been a very ambitious person, I wanted to measure myself against others. So I think it just comes from my character.
For this kind of flying, if you say you're ambitious, are you in some way also a natural talent? Or would you say that you channel this ambition into a kind of training or something like that?
Yes, so behind such long flights, there's already a lot of training, and also a lot of preparation. There are different types of pilots. Some just go out and fly, and others really prepare every valley crossing with departure altitude and everything. And I think I'm sort of a middle ground between the two. I do a lot of preparation by doing my homework. For example, if I look at a lot of flights, I regularly check the Phoenix XContest to see what's being flown, even in new areas. And now, for example, these Weiden flights I did, they're in the Pustertal. And I once looked it up, I have over 200 hours of airtime - cross-country flight experience in the Pustertal itself. So that's, of course, already a lot of experience that I can simply fall back on. If I ever get low somewhere, the chance is relatively high that I've experienced it before, simply because I've spent so many flying hours there.
But is it just flying and more flying, basically, that's the training for you? Or are there things where you say, I've also specifically trained certain things? Like circling in thermals or other things where I say, I want to get better at that in some way. What can I do there? And I fly into a thermal five times, up, out again, down again, and say, how do I get up better the second time or something? I try out new things. So, a kind of very targeted training.
So for me, very targeted training was starting to fly competitions. The main reason I started flying competitions was simply that I had already used up the time span that a cross-country flight day just has, but I was very slow. And in a competition, you just learn to fly very efficiently. You have many other pilots around you. You have a really direct comparison. And that helped me a lot to be able to fly faster. I wouldn't claim that I'm still a very... well, that I'm a pilot who flies very fast, but I just fly significantly faster now and I can make use of the long duration. And what I also did as targeted training is simply keeping fit. I've been doing a lot of strength training for a long time now, I go to the gym regularly. I try to keep myself fit about two or three times a week.
I can really recommend that to any pilot, and especially to women, to do some targeted training, because it helps you incredibly well to cope with, let's say, the stresses of such a long flight. I mean, when I fly, it can be ten hours or so. And usually, it's often the case that the next day is another good flying day. That means I have to bring the energy and the endurance to be able to do another good flight on the second day, if I want to.
What do you train specifically physically, like specifically for flying? Are there certain things where you say, I need abdominal muscles or I need strong arms to be able to hang on the B-handles all the time and pull everything down or something?
So my secret tip would definitely be the lat pulldown, because that's something where you can compensate for the biceps very well, especially for women. And it's also much more efficient if you're cranking from the lats, especially if you have some weak thermals where you have to hang in them for a very long time.
What is the lats?
A "Latt" is the latissimus. That's a muscle on the side of your back that you use, for example, when you're pulling something down from above. And I can highly recommend training that, or generally the shoulder area, back, core, but also the legs. So in the end, it's really the whole package. There's nothing I'd say I don't need for flying.
Is there a typical program that you actually do every week, all year round, to say, "I want to be fit for flying"?
I always try to incorporate a bit of variety into my program. So, I don't just go to the gym; I also do other things to stay fit. Like all the classic endurance sports, such as cycling, going climbing, doing some hiking, or going swimming or something like that. I think everyone should just find something for themselves that they enjoy, because having fun is important, otherwise you won't do it. And just stick with it and really find a variety so that you can create a good overall package to stay fit and keep staying fit.
You said earlier that you learned how to fly fast in competition. Flying fast also means constantly pushing and holding down the speed bar, which can sometimes be quite exhausting from glider to glider if you're on the speed bar for a long time. Do you do a lot of strength training for that?
Yes, definitely. I mean, you basically train for that already if you're flying competitions all the time, since you're on the gas so much.
You don't necessarily need that in the gym anymore. If you're sitting in the leg bag and stretch your feet out and kick forward properly into the speed bar, do you already have enough training from that?
Yes, that's right. And apart from that, most of the gear has some kind of pulley system in it. That also makes it so that when you're standing in the speed bar, it doesn't cost as much effort to hold it as it does when you're kicking it fresh. That
...was the strength training. How else do you actually prepare for a flight day? Tell me a bit about what you pay attention to, like the weather or other things? And how do you choose a flight site to go to? What all do you look out for there?
So, that depends a lot on whether I'm going to a flight area I haven't been to before or one I already know, because in that case, part of the preparation is already known. But what I actually do is, I look really intensively at the weather. I have an app called Xtetam. I can really recommend it; they're also one of my sponsors, I should mention that here. They offer a great weather forecast for a pretty long period, like five days. I mean, if it's longer than that, you know yourself that the probability of the forecast being accurate drops. That's why I think it's totally great. I use it really just to get a rough overview. And when I see, okay, there's a day that looks interesting, then I do very intensive weather research. So then I look at the wind in different altitudes. I also look at different models. I just try to...
to get a good general picture. What is the day like? What is it capable of? Where will difficulties arise? For example, with the Krändel triangle, it's often the case that it can overdevelop in the Dolomites, especially late in the year. If I know it's going to rain there, then even if the day before is great, I can unfortunately only fly a flat triangle. And I try to get a very comprehensive picture of the weather. And then, of course, there's also a bit of infrastructure. So, where is the launch site? Where is the landing field? Where is the location? Where are the landing zones? Where are the typical lines that are flown for a long time? What kind of flights were made there? Where would I turn at approximately what time? And what I also find very helpful is to deal a bit with the infrastructure on the ground. So, where are the train lines? Where are the bus lines? So that if you go down, you already have a plan for how you can roughly get back.
Do you also look at other flights a lot? Like in XContest or in DRV XC, where you actually check the databases and see that people have already flown there. How did they fly it and what else? Is that also a typical winter program for you, alongside going to the gym, where you say, okay, I'm going to properly prepare for the next season now?
I wouldn't really call it a winter program. It's more something I just do every now and then. I always try to see, for example, if a well-known triangle is being flown differently now, because flight routes do change. And I really think you can learn a lot from that, see what was flown today, or see what's more efficient. I use it as a very extensive source of information to draw conclusions on how I can adapt my flying style.
Some pilots use a soaring simulator where you can basically fly over landscapes using Google Earth, and you can actually try out different headings and get a visual sense of certain landscapes, especially if they're new or something. Have you ever done anything like that?
I've done that before, but I actually found it more useful to just look at things on Google Earth or to put the flights into 3D.
And then, piece by piece, actually looking at these 3D flight visualizations. What did they do there? And do you also remember things like where the takeoff altitudes were, just to get a sense of it? Do you take notes on that, or do you have a mental image of how a flight should proceed?
I really have more of a mental image in my head. So I don't memorize individual takeoff altitudes now, but you should definitely have a rough idea afterwards. And my goal is ultimately that if someone has never flown there and asked me, "Hey Ramona, what do I need to watch out for?" I could give them a briefing, so that I could explain it to them. Like saying, "Here, you have to be careful. That's a difficult spot. Here you can get good thermals. A lot of people have already stalled here. You have to watch out before that because the wind goes there." Just having an image of what the flight looks like? Where do I need to gain altitude? Where are the long valley crossings? So that I could, in principle, just map it out on a map with the corresponding important spots or difficult spots, difficult spots.
So you're saving it like individual images of these Google Earth views or maps in your head. You can then recall them and say, "Ah, that's where this valley jump happens," and "On the other side, I'd better fly this or that spot." They always fly there. I've never flown there, but I've seen it and I'd do it the same way. And I'd also know where that spot is.
Exactly. But what I can also highly recommend is that if you're in a flight area you don't know yet, you should really plan a route with XCTrack and just have it show you the way to the turning point. Because sometimes the mountain looks a bit different than you might have expected. And if you know, "Okay, I definitely have to go this way," then that's very helpful.
You mentioned XCTrack earlier. That's mainly for thermal weather forecasting. What's your benchmark for saying, "Oh, there's a good day coming up"?
XCTrack has a really nice feature where it calculates a potential flight distance. You can set your pilot level yourself, and in the end, it's not that important what I set it to. I just need to keep it constant so I can compare one day to another. So, if XCTrack tells me I can fly 50 kilometers one day and 200 the next, I can just see, oh, okay, the 200-kilometer day is obviously much more interesting. For me, 200 is pretty much the limit—if it turns red accordingly, I'll say, oh, okay, I'm definitely going to take a closer look at that. But it's also very difficult; that number doesn't always hold true. It could easily be that a day that isn't forecasted very well ends up developing much better later, because the forecast data just changes in the air—the air is simply different later on.
Have you also had days that were great, where you really took the time to go flying, and then you were basically standing on the ground after an hour realizing that nothing was working out?
Yes, absolutely. That's happened to me too. I had a flight recently where we thought, oh, this is going to be another beautiful soaring day. And then the west wind was just significantly stronger than forecast. There was really no progress at all. And then it was just the realization, okay, today just isn't the day. And yeah, then you just fly back to the launch site with the wind and have another nice day instead.
How do you deal with something like that? Are you disappointed? Do you get annoyed about traveling all that way just to end up there without getting to do the big cross-country flight?
I think it's important to learn from it and reflect on, okay, what didn't work in my preparation? What might I have overlooked? But if all the pilots around me say, hey, they also thought it was going to be a good day, then it could simply be that the forecast was off. I don't necessarily get angry about that. But of course, obviously, you'd have liked to keep flying that day. But it's nothing that can be influenced now. So if the weather decides to be the way it is, I can't influence that. I can influence whether I end up crashing at a certain point or not.
Would you say that, over the last few years, you've basically gotten better at weather assessment? Or has the weather itself changed over the last few years to the point where it's actually harder to make a proper weather assessment?
I think it's both. On one hand, you definitely gain more experience, so you can say, "This day was predicted like this before and it developed like that, and now it looks like that again." But on the other hand, like you just mentioned, I also think that weather forecasting has simply become more difficult in some ways.
How do you deal with somewhat uncertain days? Do you always bet on it and say, "I'm going anyway"? Or do you just look at it, especially when it comes to points—and to that point, you obviously always have to manage your time, how much time can you put into flying—do you say, "No, I'm really focusing on the days that are clearly really good"? I
I try to focus on the days that I think are clearly going to be good. But sometimes you just have to listen to your gut. For example, we had a day at the end of May this year that wasn't a classic good paragliding day like we're used to, like the long flights we normally do. And I'd looked at the weather the day before and had this thought, wow, you should actually go to the Southern Alps tomorrow. It looks really good. It's a really calm day in terms of wind. Otherwise, it also looks pretty good. It's not a huge base, but it actually looks really good. And sometimes you just really have to rely on your gut feeling.
Do you have a good gut feeling? Yes. Have you always had that?
Yes, I think so. It's just something that grows over time, how you make your decisions. And I think it's really important not just to listen to your gut, but also to simply use your head. But it's just always the final decision, in principle, that I make with my gut feeling—the final call.
If you were to go back to the topic from the beginning and compare male and female pilots, would you say that men perhaps fly a bit more with their heads and women a bit more with their gut? In terms of feeling?
No, I wouldn't say that. I'd rather say it depends very much on how a person is generally wired. So, in my circle, there are people who might have, let's say, stereotypical traits that are more often attributed to women, or exactly the same—stereotypical traits that are attributed to men. But generalizing from that, I just don't think that fits the world we live in today anymore.
Where would you place yourself in this stereotype in terms of your thinking and your way of doing things?
In different qualities, in different gender roles, so to speak. For example? I think, for example, that this persistence is maybe something that is more attributed to men, but where it is, for instance, very pronounced in me, something like that.
Let's change the subject a bit. But let's stay on something that also affects many women. You're basically a lightweight too, and as far as I know, when you go flying, you usually fly with ballast. Why?
Because I'm much more comfortable in the air with a larger glider. I actually got to try it out for a year. I flew the C02 and had it in size S for one season, and then switched to size MS. It's well known that smaller gliders are generally harder to fly—that they react more violently in extreme situations, for example, that they're generally a bit sharper, and that the performance isn't as good. But what really surprised me was how much less work you have in the air with this larger glider. For me, it almost felt as if I had stepped down from an END glider to an ENC glider, just in terms of how much work I had to do in the air. And especially in competitions—I fly a lot of KOMS, a lot of competitions—you really notice that you have a very distinct disadvantage with these smaller gliders.
And that's why on my flights, whether I'm planning long distances or flying competitions, I actually always carry extra weight. I try to cover as much as possible with water ballast, of course, but you don't have an infinitely large harness. At some point, you just have to cover a certain amount of weight with lead, and many people use those lead vests for that. You've already spoken to Elli, who said she carries 45 kilos. When I'm at the start, it's 35 for me. But that's also very intense when you really look at it in relation to your body weight. For me, that's over 50 percent of my body weight. And of course, that just brings in, let's say, a lot more effort. It's obviously also much more exhausting and it's really also more dangerous if you ever land poorly somewhere with it.
That is absolutely clear to me.
Does that annoy you sometimes, just sometimes?
Yes, of course it annoys me, especially when there are difficult starting conditions and I can't get off well, or I say, "Hey, I just need a bit more wind to take off cleanly," and then I see some heavier guys next to me having no problems at all. Then it's definitely something... I mean, I'd love to be that heavy too, so I could just start with my hydration pack.
But for performance and stuff like that, are you always ready to take on that extra ballast?
Then, only if I think it's worth it. Yeah, so if I'm just doing a simple glide flight somewhere or just going out flying with friends, then it doesn't have to be the extra lead weights.
Would you still fly with ballast, especially since you say it's actually more pleasant to fly—not the takeoff with the weight, but once you're in the air, the way the glider behaves is just more pleasant? Would you also fly with ballast if you say, I'm going on a cross-country flight, but I don't really care that much about points and kilometers, so you don't have to get that hyper-performance out of it? Just for the beauty of the flight or the beauty of the feeling of flying, or the pleasantness in the air?
So if I just want to fly comfortably—for example, if I have a very choppy day where I know, okay, there will be strong thermals—then I'd tend to take more weight than if it's a calmer day. That depends on the conditions again.
How often do you fly without ballast?
Because I already do a lot of competitions or long-distance flights in the summer, the majority of what I fly—especially in the summer and spring—is with ballast. And those flights without ballast, those are more in the winter or autumn, when you just do some hack and fly or something, or when you're training for agro flights; that's not really part of it.
That means, for many flights, even in the summer as you see it, one thing that's always on your mind afterwards is actually covering distance and collecting these points, and then maybe standing higher in the rankings and having that competitive character of flying. What does that actually give you? I
I think the fascination of flying such long distances and being in the air for ten hours straight is simply the experience you have while doing it. I mean, for as much as I see within this ten-hour flight, I'd have to hike for several weeks to get the same views, the same experiences. That feeling of really flying for hours with a piece of fabric without an engine, simply because you're using energy from the sun by flying along with birds—that, even with friends and all, is of course a very fascinating experience that, I would say, constantly fascinates you. Or it's just the process of taking off alone. I mean, anyone taking off for the first time feels an incredible sense of happiness. And on the other side, of course, there's also the aspect of simply saying you've set goals for yourself that you want to achieve and you want to get better.
And those are the points for me that, even after all these years, make flying still hold such a fascination for me.
But don't you miss out on things when doing cross-country flying—that very goal-oriented cross-country flying where you say, "I want to fly for speed, my next turn point is over there, I have to reach it by 13:30 so that the 200 FAI still counts" or something like that. Don't you miss out on a lot there too? I mean, you could also say, "I'll fly slowly," but instead of flying the perfectly straight route and having my three turn points in at the end, I could fly out of every side valley and discover completely new things that I don't notice at all on my ever-expanding, similar triangle routes.
I wouldn't say I'm missing out on anything, because the flight itself is already very beautiful, regardless of whether I'm flying into that side valley or flying a route I've flown many times before. But I think it's definitely very important, in addition to the, let's say, performance flights where you try to cover long distances or when you're flying in competitions, to constantly give yourself the opportunity to go flying where it really doesn't matter. I did that one summer, where I didn't do it at all, and it really burnt me out a bit. Then I actually just took a glider out one evening at half past nine with a great headwind. It was getting almost dark, and it was such a beautiful flight. You should just do a lot more fun flights like that, or just go for a hack and fly with friends, or just sit around messing about at the launch site.
I think it's very important to keep that sense of joy in flying.
Have you ever gotten bored while flying?
No, not bored, but I think there are sometimes certain sections that you know very well and you think, okay, I could actually be up there by now and nothing new is happening at the moment. So a classic example, like in a valley crossing, you just have to wait until you get to the other side. Nowadays, I actually use that time to gather a bit more information. So I look at my phone, check certain wind values, see where others are, what lines they flew, and just try to use the time to get more information that will influence my decisions for the rest of the flight.
Where do you get the motivation to keep getting up in the air and really push yourself?
Because I just enjoy reaching the goals I set for myself. For example, I haven't managed to fly 300s yet, and that's one of the reasons why I keep going back to the Pustertal. And you should just know that there are very, very few days when it's actually possible to fly 300s. This year in our Eastern Alps, there wasn't a single day where anyone flew a 300. Otherwise, it's maybe only one or two days a year where it's possible. And I mean, maybe it's possible on more days, but then nobody flies it. So you don't really see it. But there are just very, very few days, and of course, you don't always know when you start, "Wow, today is a 300 day." Sometimes it's just a good day, or the day develops well enough.
What do you think will happen when you finally manage to fly a 300?
I think I'd be very happy.
And your motivation? Would the border be dead for you then, and you'd say, okay, the big goal of why I keep going to the border and flying the big Pustertal triangle, I've actually achieved that now, and okay, I could maybe push it a few more kilometers, but that's pretty much it?
So I don't have a fixed goal where I say, once this is reached, I'm never flying routes anywhere again. I think you just find the next goal that interests you, where you say, okay, maybe I want to do this section faster, or it's not always just about the border triangle. I mean, we have so many flight areas in the Alps where you can fly beautiful routes, and I think there are also opportunities to discover new routes or just try something completely new. So I think you always find a goal that motivates you to go flying.
But for you, a goal also means achieving a certain level of performance.
Sometimes the goal can simply be to maintain my enjoyment of flying, which isn't linked to a specific idea of performance or a result. For example, I once went to a competition where my goal wasn't to do well, but simply to have fun at this competition, and I completely achieved that goal. I had a great time there.
I've heard from different pilots that they actually performed best in competition when they didn't go there with a performance mindset, but rather with "I just want to have fun," and then they were freer and could actually fly much more successfully in the end. Was that the case for you at this competition as well?
Yes, as I said, I didn't fly very well in that one competition, but I think this general idea that having fun should be the priority—that you don't say, I'm doing this now to get a specific ranking—is very, very important. And that's also what keeps you in the competition long-term, or what motivates you to keep flying the best route over and over again.
Was this tendency towards competition flying and performance-oriented XC flying and all that, was it already there with you from the beginning in your flying? Like, first on a smaller scale and then growing, or did you grow into it? What was the initiative or what led you to really incorporate this performance mindset into your flying?
I think that's really something you grow into over time. So when I started flying, I wasn't interested in cross-country or competition flying at all in the beginning. What totally fascinated me was freestyle flying, like flying some kind of dynamics -sats, or a sat—well, of course, you probably start with the spiral—but I was actually interested in something completely different. Then at some point, the focus shifted a bit, like, hey, it's actually cool to leave the local mountain and fly somewhere else. And then the thought came back: okay, I need to be faster now, I want to fly faster, that's why I'm going into competitions. And now I'm back at the point where I'm saying it would be very useful if I had an even bigger skillset in acro flying, simply to handle the glider reactions even better, especially with a two-liner.
So I think what matters is also just a bit of the versatility that defines you as a pilot.
So, that means you'll be incorporating more acrobatics training into your routine again soon?
Definitely. I had a blast when I did an SAV last year and stalled my two-liner again. I felt like, of course, it's great when you keep finding things that bring you new fun, because variety is also important, obviously.
Is it different to stall a two-liner?
Yes, technically it's a bit more complex and the inputs have to come at a much more defined time, so they have to come at the right moment for the reaction to be correct. So if you're learning to stall, it definitely makes sense to learn it with an ENB glider or something like that first, and then once the technique is right, switch over to the Zweiliner.
Did stalling work for you right from the start?
No, definitely not. I mean, my first stall probably looked like every other maneuver when you're learning it and following the manual in a SAV with radio, and of course, sometimes something goes wrong or something gets stuck or something. So I think that's why it's a learning process.
In terms of performance, what has been your biggest highlight in flying so far?
I think it was the longest flight I've ever done. That was at the end of last year, in August. I was able to fly 267 kilometers FAE - triangle, and the women's world record is only three kilometers further. I obviously had the record in the back of my mind, but in the end, I just couldn't quite get back into the cylinder. I believe that was one of my best flights, and what's interesting is that the flight was done during a bit of an off-peak time of year. I didn't do it now in June when the days are longest, but rather in a fairly short timeframe. That's why I'm actually very positive that if I can do a flight in a much longer daylight period, it can become significantly longer.
And what is so special about this flight for you? I mean, is there something during the flight itself that you'd say was a highlight, or is it really just the number at the end, being able to say, I completed these 267 kilometers FAE?
It's the whole package. It's always about what kind of views you get on the flight, what difficulties you face, and how you handle them. I always find it so lovely when you can fly with friends. It's just an experience in itself to land together afterwards and be happy that everyone had a good flight. The number is of course cool, as are the possibilities of flying a world record, but it's really just the whole package that makes it all special.
With this focus on records, would it also be interesting for you to fly records in the style of the FAE—where you register records and specify certain routes, saying you want an out and return and specifying exactly what it is, or a route over three waypoints, or a truly FAE-defined triangle where you say you're starting at one corner and have to close it accordingly, which is another challenge for the flying.
I think with your question you're currently touching on Declared and Free Records, where the difference between the two is actually that one can be registered afterwards, while for the other, I have to determine the turnpoints beforehand. But what's the same for both flights is that I always have to register the record in advance. So, a record notification must take place, and even if I fly a record but haven't made that registration, then it's not a record.
Did you register that flight from last year, the one with the 267 kilometers, as a record?
Of course. I actually do it this way now: whenever I go into a flight area where I think I could fly a record, I register it, because the registration is just an email, and I think I'd be very annoyed if I did a record flight but hadn't registered it beforehand.
What do you have to include in such an email for it to count as a registration?
It depends on what kind of record I want to fly, but for what I'm mainly aiming for right now—this Free Distance Around the Triangular Course—you basically just have to state where you're starting, when you're starting, and what type of record you want to achieve. And if you explain anything else, then of course you have to include the coordinates as well, so those are just a few, let's say, details. But that's also something that changes very frequently. So I can really recommend studying Section 7, because the whole record topic is already very complex. You don't just fly a record like that; sure, just knowing when you have to register it is one thing, but because the rules are already very complicated, and I also think that this record section could definitely be updated sometime, because you can tell that all the rules are very much from the old soaring scene.
For example, there's no possibility of flying an SPIE record on a triangle that doesn't meet the FAI criteria—like a flat triangle. There is only an Out and Return, but for that, I have to take off from the point where I started and fly back again, and that's not really that simple, so to speak, compared to what is flown a lot.
Have you ever tried to register any other kinds of records, besides your FAI -Grente -triangle, where you say, okay, I'm always aiming for some kind of world record for women? Have you also tried to register other records?
I've also tried to register other records, but after I studied Section 7 a bit more closely, I realized it wouldn't have worked out at all the way I'd planned. But that's okay too. I mean, you learn from the whole process.
From the kind of flying you do, some of the very performance-oriented stuff is certainly something for the ego. Are there things where you say, "That's a flight I'm only doing for the soul," and what kind of flight is that?
There are many flights you do, for example, with hike and fly. So, I had some very beautiful flights by the sea this summer, and those were really flights just for the soul. And also, I once had a very, very beautiful experience where I flew over olive groves and had this olive thermal where it smelled so subtly of olives. And that is, of course, a very beautiful, very formative experience, or also flights where you simply fly with birds. Where
Have you ever flown with birds?
Well, actually in almost every flight. For example, in the Pustertal, there are very many eagles that you can fly with. I once flew with vultures in Spain. So every area has its own, let's say, typical thermals indicators that you can then fly with.
Do you pay much attention to the birds?
Yeah, I'd say generally that I'm a very visual person. It's happened quite often that after a flight I've flown up to someone I was at the same spot with at the same time and said, "Hey, did you see that cloud there and that bird, and how this and that developed?" And then they're like, "No, I didn't notice that at all." And I pay a lot of attention to what's in the flight. What's happening around me in the flight? I mean, I observe a lot of birds. I look at how the clouds are developing. How I'm doing the general weather development. What are other pilots doing? I think it helps you incredibly much to just have a good basis for making decisions.
Did you develop that on your own, or is it something you'd say you learned during competition flying, because you have so many indicators flying in front of you or behind you or whatever, where you can see what the air is actually doing and learn from it—you constantly have to look around to see where maybe the best rising line is and stuff? Or is it something where you'd say it's actually part of your nature, that you've always done it that way?
I've always done it that way, but I've certainly trained it further through competition flying, because you get much better feedback there on where the air is rising better and where you should fly now. You just have a much, much better picture of what's happening in the air right now.
If you look at the core of competition pilots, are you someone who is very good at finding lines?
Finding lines? I don't think that you have that flight style of flying a lot of lines, especially with the smaller gliders. I think it's more something that's better suited for larger gliders. But of course, you try to keep up with the others as well as you can. I think the smaller gliders are more designed to have to find thermals more often, simply because they aren't as performant.
Have you ever tried flying an even larger glider just for fun, to see how it flies? Like, you pack even more on yourself—not luggage, but ballast—just to say, I don't want to fly just an SM glider, I want to fly an L glider too, just to feel what that's like?
No, I haven't done that and I don't plan to, because it would involve so much weight that it just wouldn't be realistic for me to be able to take off safely, for example.
In the competition area, there are sometimes—or rather, there are the discussions that are going on—about whether one should introduce some factors, different ratings or something like that, to compensate a bit for these different weights and glider sizes, so that people don't always have to fly with so much weight. Would you be a supporter of that, or would you say, no, I have to go back to my small glider, which is more toxic and moody again? I don't really want that at all.
That is definitely something that is being discussed a lot right now. The relevant regulations and so on—they're currently discussing the possibilities of what could be done there. I think the current situation is already such that lighter pilots—and it's not just about women, there are many lighter men too—are simply being disadvantaged, and we could certainly try out different systems that simply try to compensate for this disadvantage. And I'm aware that it will be very difficult to find something that is fair for everyone or that tries to compensate for this disadvantage as well as possible. But I think a system like that isn't something you develop once and then it stays that way; it grows over time as well.
It changes, and then you realize, oh, we need to adjust it back in that direction. So I do think that something will definitely happen in the coming years, including more discussions. For example, there's this Reynolds-Class being developed right now just to make things a bit more comparable. So it's not just a discussion being had by light pilots now; it was actually already addressed by Maxim or Honno that the way we want to fly isn't actually the way it should be. I don't think anyone started flying with the idea of, wow, I want to carry as much weight as possible when I take off; the fascination of flying is that you're so light on your feet. I mean, I can grab my backpack, hike up the mountain, and just fly. I don't have a ton-heavy aircraft.
And I think we should go back to that fascination.
What's your take on those Submarine harnesses, also in terms of handling, where it takes you 10 or 15 minutes to get everything perfectly buckled up just to get into the harness in the first place? Is that still reasonable flying?
I don't think putting it on is that complicated. I don't fly a Submarine myself, simply because I wouldn't be able to get my weight - ballast - under there very effectively and because I just don't feel the protector is sufficient. The Submarine has already shown, or also all the corresponding harnesses that have come out from the other manufacturers, they've already shown that it offers a very distinct aerodynamic advantage. So, if you want to fly at the Wildspitze today, you definitely can't get around these harnesses. But for me, they come with very, very many disadvantages. Especially regarding, for example, the all-around visibility, or the fact that you can't reach your instruments, or also that I just can't get out of the harness quickly if I ever have to land somewhere I didn't actually want to land yet.
I think they have their place, but they do come with very, very many disadvantages. And I think everyone should just consider whether it's worth it for them to fly them.
But wouldn't it be interesting for a top XC pilot, for a pilot like you, where it's really about squeezing out every last bit because you say you want to move faster and collect these XDS points and maybe end up back on the podium somewhere at the end? Wouldn't it also be interesting to say, okay, I might not be able to turn any more on the glider, but on the harness?
Yes, of course, it would give me an advantage. But I also have to ask myself, what do I get for it? In that sense, I'd rather have the disadvantages. For me, it's just a calculation that doesn't add up right now. I could also say, I'm trying to fly significantly faster now. And flying significantly faster often means, for example, that after a ridge crossing, I don't turn first and then continue flying up, but that I fly straight ahead. And that also means flying very close to the terrain. And that's simply associated with increased risks that I'm not prepared to take.
How do you see the risk in competitions at all? I
I do think there are individual pilots who fly somewhat too riskily at times. But you can influence how riskily someone flies quite a bit. For example, through the task setting, by not placing a waypoint downwind or something like that as the organizer. But generally, we are moving in an environment where, I'd say, everyone is equipped with a live tracker. Which means if someone goes off with the rescuer somewhere, the organization sees it immediately and can send a heli there right away. That's not necessarily the case if I go flying alone. That's why I'm a huge fan of live tracking, whether it's in the competition, where it's of course mandatory, or even when I go flying myself, because it's simply a very good tool for me to minimize risk, because I can see where,
or where others can see where I am, which means I can get much more targeted help if something were to go wrong.
You mentioned earlier that people attribute persistence to you. Does persistence sometimes mean not feeling great, but also taking on increased risk? Like, do you take on more risk on certain flights?
I think you should consider what kind of risk you're willing to take. For example, to be specific about something, there's a section when you fly from the Staller Sattel to the border that is always a bit more turbulent during the typical north wind conditions we fly there. And for me, that's an area where I keep a significantly larger distance from the slope, or my average speed just drops because I'm not going full throttle like I do before. And that's okay for me because, in the end, it's just one flight. It's about the golden pineapple. And it's much more important that I get home healthy in the evening and, above all, that I have more time to fly. What's the point of a flight where I've been flying riskily the whole time and then I'm hanging somewhere in a tree afterwards?
Do you fly with two reserves? Yes. Always?
Always. Just because it's mandatory in competition and I also use the same harness for cross-country flights. If I'm doing a hike and fly now, then no. Not there. But otherwise, I always have them with me and I can actually recommend it, because I mean, it's a second chance at life in case the first one just fails.
Is there anything else you do for risk minimization, besides live tracking on one hand, which you recommend, and using two reserves? Or always two reserves? Having a harness is one thing. Using it is something else.
Well, there are already many things. And I mean, safety or risk minimization is actually always a sum of actions. So, what I do, for example, is that I always try to be out with friends. Or if I go flying, then actually several people always know what my rough flight plan for the day is. I think you can also do a lot of risk minimization by, on the one hand, preparing very well—by knowing, for example, okay, it's going to be rather stormy this afternoon. Which means if the first signs appear, I know what to expect, and then I land in good time. Or, of course, also by staying fit. We already talked about that before. Or also simply by trying to be able to handle my glider well. That means by doing a lot of SAVs, by continuing my education. That means it's practical in nature or also theoretical in nature, that I just read up on something or try to simply stay up to date with the latest knowledge.
On those long-distance XC flights, has it ever happened to you where you thought, "I've actually taken too big a risk here"? Have you had any experiences on those XC flights where you said, "I should have stayed away" or something like that?
Yes, I think in hindsight you're always wiser. I had an experience once where I hit a rather strong valley wind and it became very turbulent, of course. Looking back, I wish I had assessed that better and adjusted my actions accordingly. So I think you sometimes end up in a situation where you say, oh, I didn't expect it to be like this, but it is. That happens every now and then, but it definitely shouldn't be the norm.
Do you have any other hobbies besides flying?
Yeah, well, I just try to do a lot of sports on the side, just to stay active. But flying is already such a defining point for me. What's really great is that I've started going mushroom picking. I can highly recommend it because, especially in autumn, when it rains, as a pilot you think, oh damn, it's raining now, I can't go flying. But when you're picking mushrooms, you think, oh great, it's raining, the mushrooms will be coming soon. And that's of course totally great, because I'm relatively independent of the weather then.
What's so exciting about mushroom foraging?
Of course, there's the aspect of being outdoors a lot, which has many positive sides. Ideally, you find something you can eat later that you actually enjoy. That's great too. And it's a very structured approach. You don't just walk through the forest hoping a mushroom will suddenly jump out in front of you; you know your way around soils and plants that indicate certain mushrooms should be there or how to find them. Or, once you've found a mushroom, there's a very structured way of identifying it based on its characteristics. You can really work your way through that. That's what actually fascinates me about it. And of course, it's lovely when you find, for example, a really beautiful mushroom.
When you find a Steinie, so a large porcini, that naturally makes you happy.
Do you see any parallels between mushroom hunting and flying in the way you approach it or anything? Or is it actually just a complete counterbalance?
There are certain parallels in that sense, as in saying that the places where thermals are created aren't always the same throughout the year. So, depending on which season I'm in, and also what time of day it is, the thermals change a bit in terms of where they are best created. It's a bit similar to mushrooms, where you'd say, for example, if it hasn't rained for a long time, I wouldn't look for mushrooms on a south-facing slope because it would be too dry there; instead, I'd head more towards a north side.
Are there any other effects that would be comparable?
So, just as an example, because I was thinking about what you just said regarding mushroom picking—what do people actually look out for? You mentioned there are certain times. But there's also something like... something like hotspots for mushroom picking, where you know the mushrooms always show up there. And the more often you go mushroom picking, the more you eventually know these hotspots that you can maybe graze during certain seasons. Do you use something like that already? Like, do you gather experiential knowledge to say, "over there, it goes up thermally," or "at that other spot, I know you can always find these porcini around this time," or whatever?
Yes, you've actually described that very well. Mushrooms are very consistent, just like how thermals will develop similarly in similar weather conditions.
Can you be ambitious when mushroom hunting?
So I don't think that if I go into the forest being ambitious, the mushroom is going to decide to grow bigger or something because of it. I mean, it's nature. Either it's there or it's not.
No, not that. I mean, in terms of the results, that at the end you... you go mushroom picking and come back with only two mushrooms or a whole basket full, and you can celebrate that in a similar way as a 267-kilometer FAI.
Yes, of course. You can be happy about whatever you find. I mean, sometimes it's just the way it is, there's nothing more. It's like cross-country flying. If the day isn't good, I can't fly 200 kilometers either. So the right conditions have to be there.
What would you say involves more luck? Flying or mushroom foraging? I...
I think there's a lot of passion, preparation, and commitment behind both of them.
What are your next big goals?
I'd like to fly a 300er FAI. I'd really enjoy that. That would be very appealing to me. And there are also, I'd say, goals outside of cross-country flying. For example, I'd love to learn how to fly a heli really cleanly, because for me, that's just a flight maneuver that's very fascinating because it simply involves a lot of, let's say, precise inputs. Just a lot of skill, a lot of finesse, and I'd really like to be able to do that. But so far, I haven't had the time because this summer was just a lot of cross-country and competition flying.
Could you fly a heli with the Ceno?
Definitely, but I think it would definitely be easier to learn with other gliders first.
So you'd have to buy another glider first in order to make any progress?
That would definitely make it easier and make the path safer.
Is that your goal, because you also mentioned earlier that you basically want to, would like to practice more Agro, and that you would also want to acquire an Agro glider or something suitable for that in the future?
Yes, definitely.
Ramona, I wish you lots of fun training for Agro and all the other results you're going for in cross-country. The 300 must fall at some point, I'd say. And overall, it's definitely a great goal to have there as well.
Thanks, and thanks for the conversation as well.
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