And I knew that learning personal responsibility would be the hardest lesson, and that I had to stop landing or not even starting when others did, because I simply hadn't managed to do that until then. And only when I finally proved it to myself at the 2008 European Championship and was able to win my title without taking the risks did I decide, okay, now you've learned the lesson, now you can stop.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with...
Ewa Wischnierska-Lobawska.
And I'm Lucian Haas.
Eva Wischnierska is one of the most successful paraglider pilots. For four years, the German-Polish pilot flew from podium to podium and finally won the European Championship in 2008. However, she entered the history books of paragliding with an incredible, albeit involuntary, record. In 2007, during a training flight ahead of the paragliding competition, she was caught in a suddenly developing thunderstorm. With lift of up to 50 meters per second, she was pulled upwards to an altitude of around 10,000 meters. This is actually considered the death zone, where a human cannot survive for more than 30 seconds due to the cold and lack of supplemental oxygen.
But Eva survived, probably because she lost consciousness during the flight and her hypothermic body was on absolute survival mode for a long time. The incredible story of this storm flight has been told many times and is still picked up by the media today. For this podcast episode, I was interested in a different question. What does such an inevitably shattering experience do to a person? So, today's 54-year-old tells us in this episode 151 of Podz-Glidz about the years before this turning point and what followed. It's about dreams, freedom, ambition, success, and finally, Eva's greatest lesson: standing your ground, knowing when to say no, and being a role model for others by doing exactly that.
Eva, who actually gave you the nickname Birdie?
That's a funny start. My Mexican friends gave it to me. You see, even before I started my competitive career, I was in Mexico and I was flying around with the locals, and there was one guy, Mandrill, to be exact, who was so enthusiastic about flying with me that he said I fly like a Pajarito, which is bird, little bird, in Spanish, and then everyone said, yeah, that's a nice name. And then they obviously internationalized it into English, so I've been Birdie ever since, and in Mexico, I'm still Pajarito.
Is that still in use today? I mean, do people still call you Birdie?
Depending on who. The ones who know me from the old days, yes. And the Mexicans still call me Pajarito, yes.
What does this name mean to you?
Yes, I thought it was quite accurate.
I actually dreamed of moving freely like a bird even before I started flying, and I once had—I'd call it a vision—where, like in a dream, I saw myself on a treetop in a bird's nest, and I had just hatched from the egg.
And I had such a strong feeling inside, like, yes, you can fly now, you're a bird. But at the same time, I thought, but I'm so small, I've only just become a bird, and I was afraid to jump out of the nest. But the strength inside me, somehow, this intuition told me, you can do it, do it. And yeah, I never saw it in that context, but that was a good question, yes. That was like my inner birth as a bird.
How old were you when you had this dream, do you remember?
Ah, I was around 20, 19, 20, about 20, yeah.
Was that the time when you had already started paragliding, or did that come later? No,
that came later. But I saw paragliders for the first time in my life around that same time. I was living in Aalen back then and there was this air show where paraglider pilots were being towed on a rope. And then one of them just detached and I thought, he's just going to fly straight down, but then he headed towards a row of trees and then he caught some thermals and flew away. And that was my first, wow, how does that work? And then I naturally asked people and they said, yeah, that's possible with the thermals. And then I really wanted to learn too and asked where you can do that? But then, when I found out the price, what such a course costs, what a paraglider costs, I unfortunately had to pass for a few years.
But the idea was in your head. Yeah. Then you had the money and you said, "Now I have to make this dream come true," or how did it go? Yeah, so the
The fascination was born, and then years later, I was self-employed, I had my own café in Hamburg, and after two years of being self-employed, I'd had enough of it, so I sold it and thought, what do you do now? Then I wanted to study, but for that, I had to take an entrance exam in Poland because that's where I finished high school. And when I was in Poland, my brother told me that he was going to a paraglider course on the weekend. And then, of course, it was like, what? And I said, then I'm coming with you. So I did a basic course that weekend, and when I took off from the paraglider for the very first time, maybe a meter off the ground,
was, of course, that feeling of wow. I can still feel it to this day, it was just incredible, indescribable. And then, of course, I wanted to learn as quickly as possible, as much as possible, and be able to move freely like a bird.
So, this first takeoff was like that leap from the nest at Baccarito, then?
Exactly, so you can definitely compare it to that.
Did you drop out of your studies then?
Yes, I practically... well, that was in the summer. Then, when I came back to Hamburg, I thought, okay, I'll quickly get my pilot's license before I start my studies. But then, when I did my very first flight in Greifenburg from the MBG Ahlen and suddenly had 1,000 meters below me, I sat down after landing and thought, oh my god, what am I doing in Hamburg? There are no mountains there, and where am I supposed to move to? And then, three months later, I was in my favorite city, because Hamburg was actually my favorite city for four years. But then I thought, no, I need the mountains. And then it quickly turned out that flying actually meant much more to me.
And I dropped out of my studies and then in 2021 dedicated myself completely to flying, spent the whole season... 2021?
No, it was probably 2001, right?
Sorry, 2001, yes exactly, I started in 2000. In 2001 I traveled around for the whole season, I got to know 36 flight areas in one season, I did as many flights as possible, including SIV training. So I took on jobs where I could film or take people up. That allowed me to learn a lot myself, because I was always there for the analyses and then I could try everything out myself in the afternoon. So that was a very, very intensive flying year in which I learned a lot.
Did you already have your famous red bus back then?
No, not back then. That was just my beginning. I didn't get the red bus until I started competitive flying. Because that's when I realized I was out and about more than I was at home, and I thought, well, an apartment costs money, and I'm basically only ever going there to unpack and do laundry. So I thought, no, I can save that money, and instead I just bought a bus, lived in it, and was able to move around much more freely to wherever I could fly.
How did you get into competition flying then? Was it a goal of yours, like you said, okay, I want to measure myself against others?
No, not at all. I just always flew for myself, but a friend once gave me a GPS and I recorded the flights with it, but without a goal. Then one time I did an unusual flight in Greifing. I just switched the valley side to the south and flew that unusual route, and a pilot said back then—it was 2003, that's when XContest first started online—and he said I have to put the flight in. And I said, no, I don't know anything about that at all and honestly, it's not my thing.
And then he said, yes, yes, come on, I'll make you an account. So he created it for me and showed me how to upload the flights there. Yes, and then the flight was there. But with just one flight, what do you want with that? Then, of course, I started uploading the other flights too, and at the end of the first season, someone said, well, then you have to go to Germany, because if you want to have the results counted, you have to start a flight in Germany. And I almost never flew in Germany, I didn't know the flight areas there very well. And then someone said, yes, the last German Cup—not World Cup, but German Cup—is this season, so why don't you go there and just fly along, and then you'll have your German flight.
Yeah, good idea, I went there and yeah, the pilots asked if I was participating in the competition and I said, no, no, I'm just following you guys around. And then they said, come on, sign up, you'll see, you'll fly completely differently. And I said, but I don't know anything about it at all, like the routes and what not. And then they said, we'll explain it to you. And then I let myself be persuaded, I got the waypoints uploaded by the organizer, then they showed me at the launch site how to enter the route. Yeah, and then I flew my first competition and to my amazement, I was the second woman at that time.
And then I thought, wow. And then I actually realized, this is gigantic, because until then I had always flown alone. And suddenly I saw, because of the many pilots, the air was so well marked; you could see where they were flying, places I would never have dared to fly to on my own. And so I saw, aha, there's thermals there too. Then I actually flew behind them. And then I realized, indeed, you can learn so much faster that way. And I thought, okay, then I'll set a goal to just try a season in 2004. What can I do? Which competitions can I even participate in?
Of course, the ones where you don't have to qualify. And then I participated in all the Opens, meaning things like the German Open, Swiss Open, Nordic Open and so on, and set myself a goal to qualify for the German league. Yes, and then, after I think two competitions, two or three, I was already qualified. And then Stefan Mast approached me at the time, saying that he would also like to bring me into the national team. And then, as early as 2004, I had already had my first participation in the European Championship behind me. So I was totally surprised by how fast it all went.
And I could never have dreamed that I could achieve such success so quickly. Because I won all of those Opens. And yeah, it was such a meteoric rise, something I never would have dreamed of.
Even back in 2001, the Mexicans said you're a Pajarito, a birdie, a little bird. Because you can fly so well. Where does that come from? Is that something you have in your genes too?
I have no idea. You have...
no family tradition of aviation.
I'd say, my father was a model airplane builder. And he himself had the dream back then, he wanted to become a glider pilot. But you had to do this medical exam and stuff. And I don't know for what reason, I think because of his eyes or something, he didn't pass. And he always felt so bad about that. And then when I started flying, I could somehow see it in him too, like on one hand, wow, great, but on the other hand, his fear. But my parents were wonderful and always supported me, so they stood by me, even after those terrible experiences.
When I was thinking about whether I should fly to the World Championships again, they were obviously worried too, but they said they were convinced I'd make the right decision and that they're always there for me.
What would you say made you get so good so quickly? Was it simply because you flew a lot, or do you have a special feel for the air? Or can you visualize the air particularly well? What is that?
I think it's several factors, but I believe the most important thing is the mental attitude. And I think it was simply this passion, this aviation bug, that thermals have infected me with. It triggered such a great fascination and passion in me that I wanted to learn as quickly and as much as possible. And when you do something with such passion, no effort feels like too much. And I was like a sponge, wanting to soak everything up.
I read every book, I really bought and read everything I could, just to, yeah, get good quickly.
So that was just this fascination that drove me. And, well, maybe some physical abilities too. I mean, as a child, I went to a sports school. However, that was just artistic gymnastics and then other sports. So I think that gave me some kind of physical awareness. But also this sense for the air. And yeah, I don't know, the idea of how it all works in the air, I probably read up on that more from books. And so, I kept analyzing my flights over and over again.
So, I always do this kind of self-analysis. No matter what it is. I've always tried to analyze my mistakes. What did I do wrong? Why did someone fly further than me? What did they do better? And even later, during my competition. People always like to talk themselves into things like, "Ah, he kicked me out of the thermals." Or somehow, they climbed there, I arrived, and then the thermals were gone. You're always looking for some excuse on the outside. And I've always tried, of course, to look at it and say, "Okay, but you made the decision to fly there or over there." Or to get out of the bath earlier than maybe it would have been better.
Or the other way around, you've been cranking for too long, others have moved on and caught something while you didn't anymore. Or, or, or. So I've tried to be really self-critical and look at what I...
messed up. Sport-wise, things came along very quickly, some successes. In 2004, you won the German Cup right away. In 2005, you got the PWC overall victory in the women's category. I think in 2005 you were also already second at the World Championships and so on. It always went like that, you became a figurehead relatively soon. Also for, because you were such a successful woman, German national team, a bird and all that. And in a way, you were almost a media darling. Even back then. Yes,
That's right. Did it...
Did that stroke your ego somehow? Did it give your ego a little pat on the back?
Of course. In any case. I mean, it's great when you're always being celebrated like that. And I mean, the successes were there. That made me proud in some way. On the other hand, though, it also increased the expectations. Yes. Both from the media and the whole aviation scene, as well as from myself. Because of course, if you've always won, won, won, then you want to maintain that. And I dealt very poorly with defeats back then. So if I somehow maybe didn't fly poorly for a whole competition, but just one day, or made a mistake.
And if another woman or others were better than me, I'd already get upset. And yeah, of course, I wanted to live up to those expectations somehow.
When did this ambition you developed, when did it get its first big setback?
The first one was actually my, my first EC. Right in the first year. Although, yeah, actually. Because I wanted to, of course, and at the time I wasn't that famous yet. That's when it first happened. But I was leading at the EC. And during the last task, I made a mistake that I really had to gnaw over. I had an old GPS with very few, with 10,000 memory points. And because of that, the interval was every 20 seconds.
So that it's enough for the whole task. And we're in... was that still that blue one?
Bones, like an MLR24 or whatever they were called?
Actually, no, they had even more. I had the Garmin 12. Ah, okay. Exactly, that one had even fewer points. And then I practically—we were waiting for the start time. And then you had to go into the cylinder. Fly in briefly and then fly to the next turn. And I was in the cylinder for too short a time, so my GPS didn't register a waypoint. And then I continued... Then I practically flew the entire route. And that was a very difficult day. So on that day, very few pilots reached the finish. And my biggest rival at the time, Petra Krawitz, was quite far behind me.
That's why it was important for me to just fly as far as possible that day. I landed, and she was still out there, getting lost. And yeah, from that point on, we were basically convinced I had won. Even when reading out the GPS data, everything matched up. And Petra had already congratulated me. She said, "Wow, great, your first EC already, European Champion, and huge congratulations." And the next morning, Stefan Mast came by and said, "Eva, you have to hand in your GPS again." So why? Yeah, they somehow had the wrong settings yesterday.
And the cylinder was set too large. But then they corrected that. And now it turns out that you didn't have a waypoint in there. And now they have to check that again. And then they checked it. And actually, the waypoint was out. And so my entire flight no longer counted. And that was just insane for me. That can't be. You'd already celebrated the first European title internally somewhere. Others had already congratulated you and all that. And suddenly, it's sort of being revoked. And then, at the awards ceremony, I had to congratulate Petra. And she said she was also embarrassed about it somewhere.
Because in terms of flying, I progressed further, but I made a huge technical mistake.
So it was basically clear, you were actually the better pilot and just made a stupid technical mistake.
Yes, exactly. And then I bought the first Compeo, where I saved every second of the flight, or every two seconds. So that this mistake would never happen again. And yes, it hurt.
Would you say that throughout this competition career, you basically learned from your mistakes and ultimately made fewer and fewer of them?
Yes, in any case. I'd say the other mistakes maybe weren't so serious that they would have cost me a title. But of course, every human makes mistakes. And I made more after that. Luckily, I was still able to win most of the competitions. But I learned from it. Although, I'd say, regarding the technical stuff—yes, there was only one time I made a really heavy mistake. During a PWC. But that wasn't actually technical; it's just that I love taking photos. And during one... World Cup task, I really enjoyed photographing my colleagues.
And in Brazil, we were all flying so beautifully side by side. And I was taking photo after photo. And it looked so great. The landscape and the colorful gliders. And then at some point, I was finished. Then I hide my camera and look at my GPS. And it shows two kilometers back. 180 degrees back. And I'm like... How now? And then it turned out that we had practically flown. And everyone flew through a cylinder from the waypoint. And I was also just barely outside while taking photos. And I only noticed it two kilometers later. And then everyone kept flying. And I had to turn around and fly back.
And everyone was wondering, where is she heading now? And yeah, that was a big lesson for me too. But luckily, I was able to fix the points properly the following days. And then everything turned out fine.
Then there was that pretty heavy crash of yours in Switzerland. Would you also say that was a mistake? Or what was the mistake that led to that accident happening to you?
That was clearly a mistake of ambition. So that was my first big accident. We were at the World Cup... So that was my second World Cup season. I mean, I had my title in 2015. And then 2005.
You're over ten years ahead.
Exactly, exactly. That was a long time ago. And then in 2006, of course, I wanted to defend the title. And I won the first few PWCs as well. And then in Fiesch, I obviously wanted to keep building my lead. And there was a... So, all week there was a... There was a very serious emergency. And the organizers kept canceling, canceling, canceling, canceling. And on the sixth day, there was still Föhn. But they realized, okay, if we cancel again, we won't have any results. People have traveled from all over the world. So we need some kind of results list. And they decided, okay, we'll try it today.
And that, of course, really annoyed me. Because I didn't want to fly in those conditions at the World Championships... But my ambition was still so high. Well, I'd invested so much. I'd already been at the other World Cups. I already had the lead. If I don't fly today, I won't get any points. And there were still two days left. And if I don't fly one of them, I'll have a huge deficit. So I decided to fly. In the first section, it was also quite okay. But then we had a turn in a very unfavorable spot, where you had to fly through a huge lee. So we all tried, of course, to fly around it with maximum altitude.
Because the waypoint was on the airside of the valley wind. And then I also saw other pilots ahead of me. We really gained maximum altitude. And yet... at the last moment, when you entered the valley wind, the altitude just vanished. It kept getting lower and lower. And I couldn't make it over this small ridge. So I had to fly around the hill. And then I only got a collapse in the lee at the very end. Then I lost altitude. And then I only had, I don't know, maybe 30 meters of altitude above ground. And then immediately a huge front collapse. And... at the last moment, it somehow opened up. But I still landed on my back with a very large sink.
And I broke my pelvis.
In your head... were you already thinking about quitting back then? I mean, quitting your competitive career?
Not at all. No, no. I was still really ambitious back then. And I thought... that annoyed me so much. Because I knew... that was in August. And a month later, I think, was the next World Cup. I knew I wouldn't be able to fly there. That was in Slovenia. And then I wanted to, I think, in October. October or November, I don't remember now. The World Cup was in Reunion. And of course, I really wanted to try to fly there. So, three months later. Because I still had the hope that maybe, by some miracle, I could still manage to win the overall title.
But unfortunately, there was a bit of a moral blow when I got there. Because after maybe two flights or something, I realized that my fractures were still hurting so much that I just couldn't handle being in the air.
Just a quick question. You had broken your pelvis. And three months later, you already wanted to win in Reunion.
Yes, of course.
Of course, that's good. Yes,
They told me in the book, so it takes three months, that you can then somehow put weight on it again. It did hurt, but I just wanted to try.
That
It was Reunion 2007. 2007 was your destiny year. Australia. You wanted to win there too.
Of course, I wanted to win too. Because at the first World Championship, as you just said, I only won second place. And I naturally wanted to try for first at the second World Championship. And before the World Championship, there was a competition. Yes. Where practically all the pilots who wanted to train for the World Championship had arrived. So it was like a warm-up competition. And yes, that's when it happened.
What happened is, most people know the story. You flew into a thunderstorm and climbed about 10,000 meters into it. You lost consciousness at the top—at least, that's the story. But then, I think after about forty-five minutes, you came out of that storm or something. And in the end, you were only slightly shaken, let's say, for such a serious incident. You made it out again and survived.
Why did that actually happen to you back then?
Why?
Two things. Well, first, ambition, of course. Up until now, I've...
never gone down to land as long as others were still flying. No matter what competition it was, no matter how bad the conditions were, no matter how turbulent it was. My ambition was always bigger than my reason. And I never wanted to give up. I didn't want to be the loser. I didn't want to just land while the others kept flying. That's how it was here too. And on the other hand, it was my misjudgment. Because the storm cloud I got into wasn't the storm cloud that was visible.
That day, a large thunderstorm formed, but we flew away from it. My assessment was that the storm had moved far enough away that we wouldn't get into it. It couldn't suck me in. But what happened instead was that the storm rained itself out. And the cold air spread across the ground. And there was a cloud in front of me, which was just a normal cumulus. So, no signs of icing or anything. No cumulus congestus or anything like that. Just a normal cloud. But I had a lot of altitude, so I didn't fly under the cloud; I wanted to fly around it.
And when I was at the edge of the cloud, I suddenly got an incredibly strong lift. And that was already a bit weird. So far, the lift had been maybe up to three and a half meters that day. And suddenly I had seven meters. Well, okay, sometimes it's like that. You're at a different launch site and the thermals are stronger. But then the lift kept getting stronger. And the cloud sucked me in. I then tried to come down with a spiral. And I realized I was reaching my physical limits. I mean, my vision was going black. And I could practically lose very little altitude. But the centrifugal force was so high, I had to stop.
And suddenly, I was back inside the cloud. And then with the centrifugal force. And then I realized, after a few tries with the spiral, I could get down. So I thought, okay, I have to get out of the lift. I put my ears back and tried to just fly straight ahead. But the lift kept getting stronger. And when I had 15, 20 meters of lift and saw that the altitude was already at 5,000, I thought, that can't be right. The cloud wasn't that high. And then suddenly it started to rain. And I thought, something is going wrong here. Because rain can't come from a cumulus cloud that isn't icing up.
And then it started hailing. And all I could do was signal Stefan Maast. Stefan, I'm over 5,000 meters. It's raining and hailing here. And I can't do anything anymore. And then I really just tried to focus on the glider, making sure it stayed open. I couldn't see anything. It was raining, hailing.
And I thought, yeah, there's nothing more I can do. It was only later that Volker Schweinis explained to me, when I was back in Germany, that there was a very strong inversion that day. And that's why the clouds ahead of us still looked all beautiful. And at the moment I was under or next to the cloud, the cold air from the ground detached a huge parcel of hot air. And that parcel apparently punched through the inversion at that moment. And it was like a balloon where you make a hole, the air then practically shot upwards through that hole in the inversion like a fountain, practically.
And that's exactly the moment the thunderstorm, the baby cell so to speak, was formed.
Would you say that getting into it there was also a tactical flight error? Or was it simply impossible to foresee? Even if you say, well, of course, there were other thunderstorms. You could also say that you shouldn't be flying in a thunderstorm at all. But would that be something where you'd actually say, I could have seen it with my knowledge at the time, I just couldn't have known, it just happened to me.
Exactly. So from my perspective, with my knowledge at the time, I wouldn't have suspected that a thunderstorm cell could form so quickly from a cumulus cloud of that size. I mean, up until then, I'd observed many clouds growing and growing. First, Cumulus Congestus forms, then practically a tower cloud forms, which eventually freezes or something. Or if the Congestus practically starts to freeze at the top. But I had never in my life seen a thunderstorm cloud form that quickly.
That even before I flew under the cloud, there were no signs, practically no signs at all, that it could overdevelop. And five minutes later, it starts developing again. The way a thunderstorm cloud does. That was, yeah, something I could never have imagined again.
Which shows once again how explosive weather can sometimes be. Exactly. In that thunderstorm cloud, when you climbed up there, at some point your vision must have gone black. So you passed out and probably survived because of that, because your metabolism slowed down or something. Were there any thoughts before that, where you were like, I've already said goodbye to my life?
No.
Of course, I felt the fear of death somewhere. But I'm a bit of a stubborn person. And even in the face of death, I said, no. I can't do this to my parents. And then I really started to pray, if there is a God or angels or whoever. Please help me. I have to get down. I have to get down again. And I didn't doubt it. Not at all.
After some time, you woke up again, still in the clouds, flying, so to speak. You regained consciousness from the fainting spell. What was your first thought?
So first I tried to feel the pressure point from the glider to fly actively, because I couldn't see anything. And then I realized, oh, I don't have any, I don't feel anything. And then I only realized that I don't have the brake handles in my hands at all. And then I got scared and noticed that I was always lying in the harness. And then I grabbed onto the risers a bit to get the brake handles back into my hands. I just put them in front of my face and thought that maybe I had a nap for a second or something, like some kind of weakness.
I never would have thought that I was unconscious for so long. And then, I just thought, God, the cold is so unbearable. I was practically holding my hands in front of my face and trying to fly straight because I was still hoping to get out of the cloud somewhere. I didn't know that I was so high. And I still thought I was in this big cloud and that it had to come out somewhere. And then at some point, I did briefly come out. The sun was shining, but then I realized that I was still almost at 6,000 meters. And there were only clouds below me; I couldn't see any land at all, I was still above the clouds.
And the glider was sinking. And then at some point I sank back into the cloud. And I thought, oh my god, I'm still so high. I can't stand the cold. And then I decided, okay, you have to go down, you have to spiral. And I knew that the glider was of course completely wet and with hail. I was completely iced over. Icicles were hanging from the lines. And then I knew I had to spiral very carefully. And then rather for a long time, but not too violently, so that I could endure it for a long time. And then I spiraled for a very long time until eventually the cloud cleared and I could see the earth again, like something out of Apollo 13.
Wow, coming back. I felt such pure joy in my heart. And then I stopped spiraling and looked for a place to land. I saw some cows at a gliding distance. And then I thought, okay, if there are cows, there must be people somewhere too. And then I headed towards them, just turning against the wind, and landed very gently. And then I knew, okay, I survived.
Then it took a while until they finally found you there, took you to the hospital, and so on. I think the World Cup was two weeks later. And you already started flying again. Why?
Yeah, I basically wanted to fly again right away. Yeah, because I knew that if you have, let's say, a trauma, you should do something again immediately to overwrite it, so to speak. To overwrite it positively. Exactly. The longer time passes, the harder it gets, but I had frostbite and they had to cut out this huge blister and then I got antibiotics. And then I waited a few days, but before the World Championships, I still flew the glider test to see if it even flies anymore. It was totally battered.
And then I thought, okay, the chances of a good placement are very low, but I wouldn't be me if I didn't try. Funnily enough, on the flight to Australia, I also watched a movie on the plane, Little Miss Sunshine. And there, the grandpa says to the little girl, losers are those who are so afraid of losing that they don't even try. That really stuck in my head. And I thought, exactly, and you at least try.
How was that after such a—I don't know—how traumatic the experience was for you? You were also unconscious, and maybe that's why you didn't repress so much of it. But maybe your brain didn't even perceive or process it in a way that I can "chew" on it as a full trauma in my head or something. But how was it during that first flight you did afterwards? Was it like you experienced taking off again as a sort of redemption? Or was flying out there for the cameras, for the others who watched you—you were the heroine in a way. But did you also see yourself as a heroine?
No, at that time, I didn't care about the camera or being a hero or anything like that at all. I actually felt more like I did during my first high-altitude flight. I just felt gratitude. Gratitude that I'm alive, that I can still fly.
And I had tears in my eyes because another pilot died in that storm flight, he was only 500 meters away from me.
It was a Chinese guy. And I...
didn't understand exactly why he died and why I was allowed to survive. And that was actually the biggest emotion and gratitude. And yes, I knew at that point why my second or third life had already been given to me in that moment. But I was convinced I would find out eventually and thought, well, obviously I still have some tasks in life.
So you didn't fly to the end of the World Championships. But was it clear to you back then that you'd stick with competition flying, or was there a period of doubt afterwards where you thought, maybe I should just give up completely?
So I actually did fly to the end of the World Championships. Even if it was with a really poor result. I only made it into the top 10. But back then, even before that flight, I was already thinking about whether I should quit or not. And I knew that my biggest mistake was my ambition. And I knew that if I quit now, I wouldn't have learned my lesson. And that's why I thought to myself, no, you don't quit like that. And then I talked to myself and my parents, I'm staying in competitive flying. I want to prove to myself that I can get back to being among the top winners, but without taking any risks.
And I knew that learning personal responsibility would be the hardest lesson—to stop going for the landing or not to start at all, even though others do. Because I hadn't managed to do that until then.
And only then, when I finally proved it to myself at the 2008 European Championships and was able to win my title without taking the risks, did I decide, okay, you've learned the lesson, now you can stop.
Is it actually possible to fly competitions without taking risks?
Yes, but it's very, very difficult because, let's put it this way, when you do it just for fun and enjoyment like I did at the beginning to learn, then, yeah, then I just land if it gets too turbulent or if the weather develops in a way I don't want. But if you don't do that, then you can, like I did later, more or less live off of it. I did nothing else but work as a flight instructor and fly competitions. That was my life. Even if it wasn't much, I received sponsorship money, and of course, you have to deliver results. And then you think twice when you're financing everything yourself; I had to pre-finance all the flights, all the competitions, everything.
and then you just hope that I win. And if I don't win, there's no prize money. And then the pressure is so high.
And I'd say, yeah,
It's hard to decide then, okay, I'm going to land or I'm not taking off.
Even before the 2008 Euros, where you won, there was another PWC in Japan. You flew there too, and I think there was even a film crew there that wanted to film you. And then the weather in Japan was shit, and you said you weren't even going to start. And you actually kind of let everyone down in a way. How did you feel back then?
I have to say, that was the very first time under that kind of pressure, with a film crew that was only there for that one day to film me, that I had to say, "Guys, I'm going to have to disappoint you. I'm not flying." I told the organizers I wasn't flying today. And I have to say, that was the first time I felt that all the other World Cup wins and all the other titles
...were not even comparable to this feeling of being true to myself for the first time and proving to myself that I could say no, even though others started and even though the organizer let the race run. And that was wow. Later on, with the Liga flights, where the weather was bad, everyone else kept flying and I was the very first to do a 90-degree turn, ears down, speed bar, and to the landing field. And then other pilots who also landed came up to me and said, I'm so grateful you were the first.
Because then I went in to land and only then did I realize, man, landing isn't actually a weakness, it's a strength—being the first one, being the first one to say no, and then even having that role model effect where others actually thank you for it. So really, that showed me that it's not a weakness, but a strength.
Would you call that the biggest success of your career?
Yes, definitely.
That situation in Japan, was making that decision also, in a way, a feeling of freedom for you too?
Yes, freedom, but also one,
not a rebirth, but a new realization, a new skill that I had been lacking until then,
exactly, to fly safely, to fly competitively safely. In normal hobby flying, it would never have come to that, my ambition wasn't that great back then, but in competitive flying, yes.
Well, you won these European Championships in 2008 and proved that it's possible to fly—let's just say, low-risk—and still win.
Why did you still fly in other competitions afterwards? A few of them.
Yes. Because in the
You had proven yourself, you'd had your success, and you'd said, okay, basically, now that you're at the peak of success, you can step back, or something like that—but you still kept going a bit further. Why?
Well, I'd say the next World Championship was in February 2009, and Harry Bunz asked me if I was coming along, and I said I didn't really want to anymore, but Mexico was sort of the birthplace of Pajarito, of Birdie, and I had so many friends there. I had such a bad feeling about flying there because I knew that February is actually way too late. In Mexico, the best time to fly is December or January; it gets drier, the conditions get more demanding, and I wondered why the organizers were holding a World Championship in February, but then I thought, oh, just out of sentiment.
and well, I thought, okay, you'll try one more time for the World Championship title, but I had already decided I wouldn't have any more sponsors; I didn't want the pressure of having to win somewhere anymore. So, instead of sponsor logos, I had a quote that thermals have shaped in Australia, from Nelson Mandela: "Be the change you wish to see in the world." I had that produced at my own expense and glued it into the glider to make a statement that we are responsible for the changes ourselves and carry the personal responsibility for everything, and not always just
...looking for excuses and someone to blame in the outside world.
Did you also want to change the competition scene?
In any case. I wanted to give my colleagues a bit of a wake-up call, because I noticed that, somehow, my example hadn't shown anything to many people at all. They didn't learn from it. I already saw that at a World Cup, for example, in Spain, where we were all standing at the launch site. A thunderstorm formed behind the launch site. It was already storming, so there was thunder, and the organizers still said "the window is open" and everyone, without exception, took off. I was the only one who stayed at the launch site.
and I just shook my head and said, haven't they learned anything from this? I went to the organizer and said, please, do you want to kill them? What are you doing, why? And he said, well, sometimes the cell dissipates and then you can still fly, but there was already so much wind down below that people couldn't land. Most of them landed back at the launch site. Then they canceled, of course, and that's when I realized, well, everyone has to have their own experiences, and I just wanted to use that saying anyway to show that we are responsible for the changes ourselves.
At this World Championship in Mexico, there was a tragic incident. The Swiss pilot Stefan Schmoker died in a crash, and I believe you actually pulled out of the World Championship yourself after that incident. Completely.
Exactly. So I just realized, okay, it would have been nice to try now, but I actually made a mistake by going there at all, even though I knew that the conditions in February are so severe, and then I thought, no, you have to stop now, and then I said that was it in the middle of the competition.
Did you maybe also feel some guilt because of that, at least towards your colleagues, your opponent, or something like that?
not at all? No, I didn't, not at all. Why, how did you come up with that question?
Yeah, you all fly there together, and you've said, okay, I'm going to take part in the World Championships or something. Even if you're personally convinced you're doing the right thing, you still orient yourself based on the others. And now you see, okay, they want to keep flying, and maybe I'm actually ruining the fun for them because I'm the one saying, I'm deciding for myself, I'm not flying anymore. That obviously affects the others too.
Of course, that's the trap we fall into when we participate in any competition and then fly as a team, although I'd say, paragliders, we flyers are all somehow like lone wolves. Even if there's a team ranking and it's nice when you win as a team, ultimately everyone flies for themselves and bears the responsibility for themselves. And of course, I also hoped that in Mexico, just like sometimes a thunderstorm rains out and then you can fly again, I wanted to give myself the chance to see, maybe February won't be so intense, but unfortunately it was.
and that's why I said, no, I'm sticking to my resolutions and I'm not going to risk it anymore, even if someone might not like it, and the tragic, fatal accident showed clearly enough that the conditions were just too severe.
Was that a completely rational decision for you, or were you also afraid?
I think you always have some fear when the conditions are severe, but the decision to stop was purely rational, exactly.
If you go flying today and see big clouds—say, thunderstorm clouds, or clouds that could develop into thunderstorms—how do you handle that today? I mean, is there maybe some kind of trauma left with you where you're like, the "stop" sign goes off immediately and then you go down to land, right?
So I'm much more critical now, of course, regarding thunderstorm development or weather in general,
but since I don't have to do anything anymore, I don't have to prove anything to anyone, the decision is naturally much easier for me and I always think to myself, yeah, why should I risk anything now, yeah, for some joyride? In the end, I just want to have fun again and that's what matters to me.
How much do you still fly these days?
I'd say that because I've completely changed my life and my priorities, I don't fly as much anymore. I mean, I do a few trips a year or cross-country flight seminars, but my everyday life has changed a lot. I've become a passionate organic gardener, and especially in the summer, the garden requires a lot of work and attention, so yeah, everything has its price. And I'd say I have so many other interests in life now. After the flight in Australia, I realized that flying isn't everything.
And I had so many dreams that were left behind somewhere along the way because of flying, that I eventually said, no, I want to experience other things too and achieve my other dreams and goals. And that's why it's not my priority anymore.
Do you still fly alone for yourself sometimes? Or does flying now always mean in connection with your flight school, where you offer all the trips, cross-country flight seminars, and stuff like that, so that you actually only get into the air in connection with this flight school work? Or do you also take time sometimes to say, hey, today I feel like just doing a small or large cross-country flight for myself?
So I also do things for myself. For example, last year, I had this wish to fly to Georgia because I was interested in the country's culture. And so I went there, just by myself.
...and then I explored the country with a friend, flew around, met some really great people. And that's how the idea was born to offer a flight trip there next year. But I also do the things I enjoy, even outside of my profession, so to speak.
Exactly.
Exactly. When you look at your flight school's homepage, at least what I noticed is that if you look at it, you'd think you don't actually fly anymore. I think the last entry is from 2021. Yeah, quite...
embarrassing. It's also because my interests are elsewhere now and I have my regular clients who travel with me. They're such lovely people. It was always my dream to have a client base of people I know, who I really like, and who are actually my friends by now. And that I don't have to do any advertising anymore. And of course, it's embarrassing that the website isn't up to date. Maybe I'll find a guide who'd be interested in updating it, because I just don't have the technical knowledge. But yeah, maybe I'll make it a New Year's resolution to get it a bit up to date and maybe just...
the Georgia series, put the trip in there, or something like that. Yeah, I'm improving. At least I'm trying.
If someone wants to join you on a trip, like one of those journeys, they can just send you an email and then you write back about what programs you have planned for next year, right?
Yeah, it's just that I usually have a conversation with someone first, because I don't want to take everyone along. That was kind of my dream. To travel only with nice people and with people who don't cause any problems, so to speak.
And yeah, so I'm selective about the people I spend my time with now, whether it's privately or on flights.
...or courses. Exactly, the one who can do that and can then pick the people accordingly. You say you basically do a preliminary interview. How do you find out if the people are also a good fit for flying? Because, for example, if you say Georgia, okay, the people should perhaps really be able to start independently, and that you're in a somewhat wilder country, at least with a worse rescue chain or something, where you'd say the risk might be a bit higher. How do you deal with that?
So I'm telling you, the deciding factor isn't even the flying ability—like how much experience someone has—it's much more about how people tick, what they're like,
Because, let me put it this way, you can also fly in terrain that might be more difficult depending on the flight conditions. Yeah, just like sometimes participants have asked, "Oh, I'd love to go to the Dolomites with you, but I don't dare." And then I say, you know, if you're just a beginner pilot or don't have much experience yet, then the flight window for you might simply be smaller, yeah. And then it can happen that the others are still flying and I'll tell you, you know, you'd better stay on the ground now, or I'm going to land already even though others can still fly, because you, for example, can't spiral or, or, or.
So it's more a matter of the criteria of how you handle it mentally, whether you're not too headstrong and can take it when you just can't fly.
Are you trying to avoid the ambitious ones?
No, I mean, I understand if someone is ambitious,
But for example, I've also had participants who absolutely wanted to fly, and when I see that the conditions aren't safe, I eventually say, I try to explain first why I don't recommend it and so on, and if someone still insists on flying, then I say, okay, from now on, if you want to, you are of course a self-responsible person, but you are no longer a participant in my course or trip; you are now deciding privately to go flying, and yes, go right ahead. Has that happened before? It happened once, it was at a cross-country flight seminar.
And one person really wanted to, then he even convinced his friend to join, and then the next day the conditions were dreamy, but this participant didn't want to fly. I asked him why, and he said that he'd had such a traumatic experience the day before—nothing actually happened, but he was so scared because he'd been shaken around so much in the empty air that he didn't want to fly anymore even in the best conditions. So I said, okay, then wait a bit, the others will fly, we'll go down to the Wiesflecker, and I went back a few steps with him.
and then I said, okay, we're going back, and I tried to work on it with him a bit mentally—I'm also a psychotherapist—I realized the trauma after the competition and then worked on it with him mentally, and then I instructed him on the gentle thermals, and that was on the same day, and it was good because the gap was small, but yeah, he learned his lesson from it, that that one flight wasn't worth it.
That's probably also valuable for a group experience, I imagine, because suddenly you have conversations that you might not otherwise have. Exactly. Where everyone draws their line and whether that's sensible or not, or how you can completely ruin a great flight day the next day because of a bad experience, because you say, exactly, I'm not doing that again. So for the
For others, it was obviously very vivid and up-close to see. So yes, you can also learn from other people's mistakes.
Towards the end, I'd like to talk about a small chapter in your life story. There's a very beautiful film where you are one of the main protagonists. The film is called Reise zum Horizont by Thomas Latzel, which I believe was released in 2008 or 2009, and was even shown in some cinemas and such. It tells your story, but also the story of one of your flight students, Dörthe.
Exactly. She's not just my flight student. I wanted
I was just wondering, do you actually know what became of her? I mean, are you still in touch?
Yes, it's not just contact, we didn't just become friends in the films, but in real life too. And I'm still in touch with her to this day, I even visited her three weeks ago, and I even spoke to her on the phone yesterday. So, she even became my maid of honor. I got married in 2020 and somehow couldn't imagine anyone better than Dörthe, who is very spiritual, yes, and I asked her. And yes, we have very, very close contact, a very profound, deep-seated connection.
Not just on a superficial level, but also on a spiritual one.
Does Dörthe still fly?
Dörthe doesn't fly anymore.
She had a lot of potential. She had such a great feel for the thermals. But I'd say, I don't know, she was also very ambitious and could have flown for a long time. But unfortunately, her ambition was to do long-distance flights. And for that, I don't know if it was because of her age or impatience.
She somehow didn't want to acknowledge the dangers. She imagined flying in a bit of a spiritual way, like this freedom on a mental and spiritual level. And these completely natural dangers, the physical kind, she didn't want to face. And unfortunately, at some point, she had an accident where she then said, okay, out of consideration for her family, I'll step back.
Couldn't she have learned from you as an example, since you're in such close contact? I mean, couldn't you influence her to realize, okay, I need to take a step back and show a bit more humility under certain conditions, maybe?
I'd say she could have, but she obviously didn't want to.
Okay. Does this movie actually still exist?
It's still available on DVD.
I actually hold the film rights, so if someone wants to order it, they can order it from me, even through the website. That's what still works.
And I've already been asked by some people if it's available anywhere on demand. Not yet, but I'm a... well, I like to learn, and I've now made it my goal to translate the film into other languages as well. And my goal for next year is also to actually put it on demand somewhere.
And yes, it's coming. But for now, it's only available on DVD.
Okay. Either order it on DVD for the people who still have a DVD player at all, or wait until you put it online sometime so that it can be accessed on demand accordingly. My last question. That red bus that stood for so much of your leisure time in cross-, not cross-, in competition flying, where you traveled everywhere with it. What actually became of that?
Yes, that really was my snail shell, my, yeah, home for that time. And I didn't want to sell it back then; I gave it to my father for his 60th birthday at the time. And funnily enough, it still exists. And a month ago, I got it back from my father.
And yeah, I'm going to keep it too, because it's still in good shape. And I'll see, maybe I can go on a nice trip with it at some point.
Speaking of keeping things, it just occurred to me—do you still have that glider you were in during the thunderstorm? Like a talisman? A talisman or whatever, I don't know. You still have it lying around and say, I'm not giving it away because it connects me to something.
Well, I'd say I don't have it because it wasn't my property. Swing provided it to me back then when I was on the team. And there were already several...
Museum requests for the glider. But Günther said the company would keep it. And I was even allowed to fly it. I even did my longest cross-country flight, 300 kilometers, with that glider in the same year, 2007. But then I got a new glider from the company, and that one is still the property of Swing.
But do you still have the IGC file and everything else from your flight lying around on your hard drive somewhere? Of course. Do you still look at it sometimes?
Actually, more in the context of any interviews or TV productions or something like that. Yes, I have to say, I'm always amazed when I look at it like that.
Yes, I mean, speaking of interviews, I find that interesting right now. Lately, you've been in the media again several times, or your story has been in the media several times. I saw that Galileo made another film about it. Then, I think, a year or two ago, there was a podcast series by Wondery. Four episodes, forty-five minutes each, telling your story. When you do something like that or hear about something like that, does it still make you proud, or are those things where you say, "Actually, I'm done with the story. I'm completely elsewhere in life now"?
So I'm still amazed, even after all these years, by how much media interest there still is in the story. On the other hand, well, I read a really beautiful book once, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, and it shaped me a lot. And at some point, I got a little picture from my friend of a painting of a seagull with the saying "the one who flies highest sees the furthest." And when I came back from Australia, that saying took on a completely different meaning for me. Yes, so in a figurative sense, but also in the
literal sense. The actual altitude was so high that you would normally never have reached it with a paraglider.
But it's about everything you learn, you know, and expanding your horizons and so on. There are so many parallels. And just for fun, I put the question into ChatGPT: what does the seagull Jonathan or what does Ewa Wisniewska have in common with the seagull Jonathan? And there was such a funny answer, I was amazed myself. But on the other hand, it's also so funny to read something like that about yourself from artificial intelligence. And among other things, it said that I am a symbol like the seagull Jonathan for courage, for breaking boundaries, for realizing dreams, and, and, and.
There are so many themes that are obviously part of my story, and I realized that it's actually interesting for many people that these topics can be addressed, and that people might be able to learn something from them—to break their own boundaries, overcome fears. Yes, and I always try to encourage people and show them that if you do something for your dreams, that you can actually make them come true.
Are you writing a book? The Seagull Eva?
No. Birdie Eva. Or Birdie Eva? No. I'd say, I actually already had a request from a publisher, from a major publisher.
But I don't have the time for it. Writing isn't my thing. They even wanted to provide me with a ghostwriter. But I thought, no, I lack the time for my goals in life to make them happen. And I thought, oh, a book like that, I can still write it when I'm 80. By then, I'll have even more to tell.
What other goal would you like to achieve?
They're more like private things, so a few more countries I'd like to travel to. And then a very wide, distant goal that's almost unrealistic. But oh well, I've already achieved many unrealistic goals. It would be a little house somewhere, on the edge of the Alps, its own little one with a small, private garden.
Where you can also land.
Where you can still land, exactly. Or at least next to the house, somewhere in a nice meadow.
So far, you've already achieved many goals you set for yourself at some point. Maybe this goal will come eventually too. I wish it for you, that it may come to pass. Thanks for the great storytelling. I believe that many, many interesting things can be taken away from this episode. Because I also believe that one of the most important realizations in a pilot's career must be that you have to trust your own gut above all else and be able to say, like, I'm going to land now, or I'm not taking off at all, even if someone else was just talking trash about it or something. Because you simply know that you're better off doing that for yourself and maybe you can have the better experience the next day accordingly.
Exactly.
So, thank you for telling that story.
I would also like to say a big thank you. That
was episode 151 of Podz-Glidz with Eva Wisniewska. In the show notes on the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz, you'll find some additional links. Not just to Eva's homepage, but also to several reports and videos that provide more details specifically about her storm flight, which I intentionally kept quite brief in the podcast. You can subscribe to Podz-Glidz on all the usual podcast platforms. I upload a new episode every 14 days, but if you don't want to wait that long, feel free to browse the archive. You can already find well over 150 hours of interesting conversations about the cosmos of paragliding in there. As a freelance journalist, I put a lot of time, work, and also costs into Podz-Glidz and Lu-Glidz.
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