157. Foehnphobie - Chris Geist

So I always say, my favorite saying is that the size of your balls grows exponentially as you get closer to the landing field. So sometimes I'd be interested in the image up there, like, I'd find that really exciting too, actually during the SIV training, if you could see an in-flight camera directly from the instructor and the pilot, and then everyone could see how they actually click, the big eyes or whatever, I mean, I find that super exciting.

Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Chris Geist. And I'm Lucian Haas.

Chris Geist founded the Paragliding Academy in Allgäu 17 years ago as a flight school and provider of SIV training. Before that, he was an agricultural pilot, and then a development and test pilot, where he enjoyed pushing the limits of both equipment and human capability. Only when it came to weather assessment was he always very conservative, the now 47-year-old tells us in this episode 107.

And he still wonders today how carelessly many pilots take to the skies, even when the forecasts clearly indicate Föhn. Chris sent me a voice message via WhatsApp a few weeks ago complaining about this. He suggested whether I couldn't do a bit of Föhn education via Lu-Glidz. That turned into the idea of doing a podcast with him, talking not just about weather, but also the general handling of flight risks. In a sense, it became a frequently cheerful potpourri of topics. Among other things, we talk about how the character of flight students has changed over the years, what downsides the increasingly easy-to-fly paragliders bring with them, why many two-liner pilots overestimate themselves, and why Chris would like to take a leaf out of the book regarding the radicality with which some young XC cracks approach cross-country flying.

Since you're listening to the podcast, why not become a supporter of Podz-Glidz? It explains how easy it is on the Lu-Glidz Gleitschirm-Blog, specifically on the support page.

Chris, where do you think the biggest risk in paragliding actually lies?

The biggest risk in paragliding is actually always seven meters below the canopy, a flight instructor once told me. And after 30 years, I think I can still agree with that. So the main problem, I believe, is simply that the pilot under the glider is the biggest risk factor.

Well, we can't just get rid of the pilots, can we? Somehow. How can we then, yeah? That brings us back to AI. Yes, we were talking about AI earlier, which is why the keyword AI comes up here. AI—maybe someday we'll have an AI co-piloting. But for now, we still have to have pilots steering, or pilots have to be steering. How can we minimize this risk of the pilots?

Yeah, I've obviously had a couple of thoughts about that too. But of course, the problem won't be completely solved. However, I think a bit of self-reflection or risk assessment—or evaluation—is simply a bit of the key to success. That's actually what I'm missing. But we weren't any different back then either. I mean, at 20 or 30, you couldn't have told me much either. Although I have to say, for example, when it comes to the weather factor, I've actually always been very defensive. So, if the weather didn't suit me, I was actually always one of the first to head back down on foot or take the lift down. And that's actually just a bit missing for me. But I think nowadays there's also a bit of ignorance about weather phenomena, or maybe relying on some apps or something. Exactly, that's where we sometimes get a bit worried.

I don't mean that in a bad way at all. But I think the wind element is just one of those things, right? You can't see it. I mean, when you're skiing, there are signs for blue, red, and green runs. No, there aren't any green ones. There are still black ones. There are still black ones, exactly.

Green is probably when the snow is gone.

That's why it was such a tragedy with the snow. But luckily, well, yeah, ski touring was somewhat possible. This year, only green slopes.

Stay serious, Lucian. Okay, okay. This is a serious interview. Okay, so what was I trying to say? Well, actually, I think the main thing is, you just don't see the air. Exactly. I think with this assessment, can I fly now, or can Kriel Maurer still fly here, or Chris Geist, or someone else. I think for us, there's just no distinction. And that's somehow a bit difficult. So at the moment, with paragliding, it's just fly or don't fly, it seems to me. And people just don't think much about it. Hey, am I up to the conditions in the air? But I think they also just can't judge us, or judge us poorly, and then they risk it because of that.

You said you were one of those. You used to be one of the people most likely to head back down. Where did that come from, or does it still come from there? I don't know if it's still like that today.

To be honest, I have to say, yeah, well, by now I've pushed my limits a bit. And actually, the naive pilots or bad pilots have helped me a bit. I always think to myself, okay, if that guy back there flies into the lee or something and doesn't give a damn, then I should be able to do it too. So I've actually pushed my limits a bit further. It wasn't like that before. I come from a time when you were really drilled. Hey, for example, you don't fly in a Föhn or during a thunderstorm or whatever. And we took that really seriously at the beginning. So that was really, we were much more defensive. I always loved pushing the limits of the glider and the gear, but never the limits of the weather. And of course, I've done it before. But I have to say, I was very defensive back then.

I wasn't as focused on the weather as many people are today. I didn't give a damn about it at all. And yeah, I find it interesting just to see that development now.

Were you maybe more defensive back then because you had less weather information? For example, in the past, you might have had a surface weather map, but nothing on high-altitude winds that you could quickly pull up on the internet. Or you had a rough GFS overview map, whatever it was. But you couldn't recognize somewhere that there's a valley and there might be a bit more wind than what you see today in these high-resolution maps, where you can sometimes already read the weather models relatively well.

Exactly, right. And that's the point. So in 1997, I got my A-license. And actually, back then there was only Teletext and, from the daily newspaper, the ISO flight map. And yeah, that was kind of the thing. So I think, in the past, we were just a bit too cautious, too naive, or we simply had less information. And now today, I think it's actually swinging a bit in the other direction. People rely extremely on apps and weather models. I mean, currently, you know it yourself, I'm in good contact with Bernie from Burner and I obviously also monitor XC Therm and so on. And the models are often, very often, quite accurate. Or you can see the Föhn trends, for example, and so on, much better of course. But they're never 100 percent accurate.

Or I mean, now we have a new Icon CH1 or whatever it might be called, which is supposedly supposed to show valley wind patterns and also the overflow during Föhn events over passes and so on. But as I've already said, I've already heard again that it doesn't always fit or isn't always 100 percent safe, of course. And I think that's a bit of the crux of it. Nowadays, people might rely too much on the apps. I do too. I mean, I check it multiple times every day. But what I'm missing now is just a bit of what we had before—taking a look out the window or simply perceiving the surroundings a bit more.

Yeah, models are always just models; they can only represent reality in a model-like way and sometimes they're just wrong. And even something like the Icon CH1, which calculates with a 1-kilometer grid and maybe captures the valley profiles a bit more, and thus can represent these valley winds that pass through them, how they're channeled, a bit better, or also capture some passes better where maybe a cold air mass sweeps from one side to the other—so that shallow foehn effect gets through. It won't be perfect. And it won't always work for everything. How would you do it from your perspective, or how do you do it? You're a flight instructor. How do you teach your flight students a) to use these apps, if you do that at all, and b) how do you teach them to be skeptical of these models, which they should actually always be, of course?

Yes, that's a good question.

I have to be completely honest, in the beginner sector, I have a relatively large flight school now, so I don't do that much anymore, but I still join in every now and then. I really like presenting the Burner app, of course, and all the others as well; I like showing them, but I always add, "Guys, this is just a rough guideline, okay? You can get a pretty good idea pretty quickly of whether you can fly or not, but it simply doesn't replace the decision on the mountain—whether I take off or not, whether I fly or not." So, I always tell them, "Hey guys, you obviously still have to learn how to assess the whole thing and so on." I'm also of the opinion that all of meteorology—well, meteorologists are always charlatans anyway, you know that. That's one of my favorite sayings, including myself.

So we never know 100% for sure. Of course, we can always explain it perfectly afterwards, but the forecasts just don't fit very, very often. Right now, I'm just missing that bit of defensiveness, that caution. People really rely on apps or are often told at the launch site things like, "Yeah, the Föhn is still far away" or "There's a Föhn corridor over there, but I'm not flying there," and so on. I find some of the stuff you hear like that really borderline sometimes. Yeah, I was told once that if there's a Föhn, for example, you're just in the lee over a large area on the old north side. And I think a lot of people underestimate that. I think many female and male pilots—please correct me, you're basically the best meteorologist or expert by now—underestimate that.

But it's simply a lee situation that we have. With south Föhn, we're on the old north side simply in the lee, and of course, of course, you can often still fly during Föhn—I do too. But I think this lee component is often underestimated a bit. I remember once, it wasn't that long after it appeared, I took off in the fog with a 10 km/h south wind. That was really it. It would be interesting to see that now with today's apps. Back then you didn't have all the information, but I took off, had a massive sink, 75% collapse, had to land in a forest clearing as an emergency landing, and there wasn't much wind there. And I think those are the kinds of situations that shape you somehow. Just like when you say, okay, I once experienced a Föhn breakthrough, exactly, or I just took off and just had a shitty air mass.

That just makes you a bit more humble or cautious. And of course, many people lack that, but you just can't replace those kinds of experiences.

How do you go about it when you want to assess a Föhn situation? Do I go flying or do I not? You probably have a gut feeling about it, but are there any specific indicators where you say, for you, these are real no-gos or something like that?

Well, sure. If I go flying in the Allgäu, for example, I have a flight mountain right behind my front door, which is a bit away from the higher mountains. Sometimes it just works out, and I'll go flying even in Föhn conditions, even if there's a bit more pressure difference or you can already see the lenticular clouds in the sky and so on. I have to say, that's tricky. It's really difficult because, for example, in the Allgäu, we often have Föhn conditions where you can fly great. And if you really don't go flying anymore whenever Föhn is forecast somewhere, you won't get into the air at all. It's actually crazy how many Föhn conditions are announced nowadays. I don't know, you'd know better. Have there actually become more Föhn conditions, or are the meteorologists or the weather models just more focused on Föhn? Because if you look at the DHV, at Schwanitz, it's almost Föhn-Föhn every day.

And I think that also contributes a bit to the fact that many people just don't take it seriously anymore. And yeah, that's just how it is, it's a really difficult thing. So like you said, for me it's mostly just gut feeling, right? I go up to my mountains, then I see, okay, maybe the Lenthesen are already there or not, or I just see this clear air mass. I see that the Lenthesen are just a bit closer today. I'll take a quick look at the wind values on the wind gauges again, and then I can get a rougher picture. Of course, someone who is coming here for the first time and then flying here lacks that. So these are those experience values that ultimately decide whether I take off or not. And sure, it's also a bit about the air. Is it a warm air mass currently blowing into my face? Is it gusty as well?

Yeah, exactly. It's just this sensitivity to nature. But you have to learn that, develop it, otherwise it won't work. Someone who hasn't been doing this for very long or simply doesn't have this understanding of the air mass yet will surely make a wrong decision, I'm sure of it. And I don't know exactly how to do it, really, other than being a bit more defensive and taking it in first, sitting around at the launch site for a bit, observing a little, then

is there actually no recipe for learning that? That means learning actually means exposing yourself to the situations. Maybe not going to fly directly, but to go to the mountain to fly, at least, and experience what it's like there. That

I have the feeling that's actually becoming less and less common. I mean, we used to spend a lot of time on the mountain, just up there with a paraglider, but we really waited a long time, watched the birds, looked at the air mass, saw how it changed, and often took the cable car back down if we weren't sure. I think that's more of the exception today. Because

Someone's already flying, then they say it's flying and you have to get out there. You know?

if you're Swabian, then of course it's also okay if the descent has to be paid for, that's just not happening.

And relax. I'm allowed to say that because I have Swabian roots too, so exactly. But no, nothing against Swabians. But yeah, I think it used to be a bit more, that you were rather a bit more defensive, a bit more observant. Exactly, I discussed it with my girlfriend too. She comes from that time, started back then, and we were already a bit more cautious. But today, I think it's also a bit because of social media, and everything looks somehow easy and yeah, Föhn flights get posted and difficult ones too. So I don't want to demonize it in a judgmental way, but I think many would be better off if they just didn't fly every now and then when there really is Föhn. But yeah, risk assessment,

That brings us to the topic.

But if a student pilot comes to you now and says, hey Chris, how can I build up weather knowledge as quickly as possible? What do you tell them?

Yeah,

You learn to fly by flying, right? Another one of those stupid flight instructor sayings, but there's obviously something to it. And, I mean, I think you can pull out a hell of a lot of information really quickly with these apps and weather models. For the flight areas, the weather, wind speeds, and so on. That's already cool. So you can make really fast progress there and get good, and get good quickly. But you just have to take your time a bit. I mean, you can't go from one day to the next and say, I can suddenly do everything. And I think some people lack the understanding that—and we're going there again, I mean, we don't have to open Pandora's box here, but regarding the training of German pilots and so on, with the Arschein, what it means, what it doesn't mean. What really got to me last year was that a student, of course, had an accident; he wasn't even old yet,

had their training with us about a year and a half ago or something, and they were again on the edge of the fog while flying, in the wrong weather, let's say, at the wrong time of day, yeah, and maybe also the wrong season. Whatever. But it hurts me, somehow, because we actually always tell our students, hey guys, at the beginning please do 40 flights, that's not the end of the event, but it's the beginning of a long series. By now it's 55 or more, it depends on the altitude. But I find it a bit naive sometimes for people to think, okay, they're just doing the training, the Arschein training, and then they can suddenly fly thermals in the spring on the edge of the fog.

I think the message just didn't quite land somewhere. And I don't think that's the flight schools' fault. We do try to convey that, but I think that whole thing about assessing and weighing the risks has just kind of gotten lost somewhere.

Well, you've been running a flight school for almost 20 years now. You must know better than I do. You said earlier you probably started in 2008. Probably, exactly. The last archaeological finds in your... Right.

It said on Xing that it was 2008. It was

2008, I think, yes. Then we say

...at least 20 years. So, we're getting close. But has the attitude of the people coming to you as flight students changed during that time? I mean, are they different today? Are they perhaps more risk-tolerant than they used to be?

Yeah, well, it's different. I don't want to generalize, but of course it's true that, yeah, I really think it has something to do with social media and all that stuff. They're just more risk-tolerant, yeah, I guess. Although it's hard to say, the audience has definitely changed. I mean, back then it was more like outdoor athletes, climbers who came who already had a bit of a basic understanding of nature or had simply spent a lot of time outside, whereas nowadays...

And as climbers, they probably have a different relationship with risk, because you always know you can fall, you have to secure yourself, check what the rock is like, and so on. And then you also decide, today I'm not getting in at all because it's too slick, because it's too damp, or whatever.

always. Exactly. Right, exactly. So there was this weather thing, I've often noticed that they were just a bit more cautious by default. And I liked that. It was just good. They weren't automatically more talented, the climbers, no question, they didn't do it better than the others now. But exactly, so this weather component was already sort of in their heads, like okay, if he says, somehow it doesn't work, then they often accepted that. And that, that has already changed. And sure, many were of course already out there being a bit sporty. A certain level of athleticism isn't a disadvantage at least at the beginning now when you're learning paragliding, if you're going up the practice slope or if you don't get clumsy and so on. And that has already changed. So many people actually—now I'll put it bluntly—come from the big city, from the metropolitan office, have never been outside before and now suddenly want to go paragliding and think, okay, you can just book paragliding and don't have to learn it.

And that, yeah, that has changed. But it's obviously a phenomenon that goes through the whole scene, of course. So that many people are coming now who simply lack a basic understanding of nature and the outdoors, and of course, the weather.

Have you or have you guys sort of adjusted the way you teach paragliding because of that? I mean, do you do it differently today? Do you do different exercises or show people the air, the nature, the birds, whatever they've never seen in the city—like how a jackdaw can somehow do loops and stuff—and say, hey, look at that.

Exactly. We do that a lot. And then we just sit there and look and observe. And I think that's totally important. And lately, I see the job of the flight instructors more as saying, okay, you're bringing people back to nature a bit more, which is how you actually teach paragliding. So, those who accept that are mega happy and it just leaves such beautiful footprints, if I may say so. Or they don't stop listening. You can address a few and they will never understand it, 100 percent. But I think the key is buried a bit in just going back to nature a little bit. And getting back to observing. And then it also becomes about paragliding. I always say, paragliding is 80 percent feeling and 20 percent technique. And it really is a bit like that.

You could do a hike-and-fly course where you basically have to hike up, no matter where. Yeah, that would

change a lot, I think. If you earn your way up the mountain a bit, that's something. You know that yourself, and so do I. So, nowadays I do almost exclusively Hike-and-Fly, or Hike-to-Fly as it's called now. When you go on a route or something, I just find it the coolest. And exactly, you can observe the little flowers and birds and it's

just a bit closer to nature again. From this, I'd say, more urban audience you have today or something, you also notice that these people, who might also quit again later because they just did it as a sort of one-off event, they do it for a year or two, or maybe not, but they go on a flight trip, say, I've done that too. I was once in Algodonales or whatever. And then they realize, I don't have the time for that at all. And then they quit again.

Exactly. Yes, that's often actually the case. I don't know how many people quit now—not quit, I think the DRV has good statistics on that, I haven't been following them closely, but it's true. Yes, so many people only realize what's really behind it during or after the training. And let's be honest, if you live in a big city now, have a family, a job that takes up your time, and maybe another hobby, then it's really difficult to actually take the time for paragliding. And you just have to make that time, otherwise you can't do any good. You have to become a good paraglider. We know that. And yes, I do think that you can do paragliding in a safe framework, with flight trips, SIV training—so advanced training—but then of course, you have to pay for it and you have to stay with the flight school for a bit. And then I think, that's doable.

So, you can make it relatively safe, even with little airtime, if you maybe participate in some of the advanced training and don't learn the hard way, like the young guys have to do who don't have any money, who

not

feel. You just have to try a lot of things, but that's obviously no longer an option for the parents' semesters. And then you have to invest money in further training and stay with the flight school. Then it works. You basically do the same thing with diving and other sports. You can do that within a reasonably safe framework. But of course, you'll never become an independent, self-sufficient pilot then. That's clear. So you have to invest a lot of time into that.

Learning through pain. How much pain did you have during your learning phase? I told you...

Yes, I did. So, I actually have never had a paraglider accident in that sense. Of course, I've needed rescuers during testing and while flying in the mountains, but not as much as today's generation, though they obviously go a step harder, I think. But I've never been injured. Hopefully, that won't happen anymore. But yeah, and I haven't had a tree landing either. I'd actually have to try that out again. Maybe I just have to fly into one sometime.

Trees are your friends, and you should only have friends. So, get in there.

My forestry studies, that would definitely help me there. Yeah, I'd manage. I'd somehow calm down. Or I'd quickly call my colleagues. You said you got your license at 97. Yeah. I

but

I also read it. I saw it once.

I really didn't know that before. It says '97 here. But as far as I know, you have a mother like everyone else, but a mother who also did paragliding and was supposedly one of the pioneers. I read that. Yes. Tell us about your mother. How did she get into paragliding? Hello Mom, if you're listening to the podcast. And how did you experience that back then? Yes,

Actually. That was really influential, I have to say. I know you know my past and all that, it was yesterday, but I think it was around '85, '86, I think she started then. His name was Peter Rieger back then. Swabian Alb, I think, somehow. He was one of the first flight schools, I think, too. It really shaped me, paragliding, in hindsight. So that was '86, as I said. And she always took me along on all the trips they made. And actually, I also watched someone crash and die back then. Yeah, how old I was then, I don't even know anymore, no idea, around twelve or something. The story already shaped me. So

Is that perhaps not the source, but the basis of your safety mindset? That you saw, with your childhood impression, wow, someone can get wiped out like that and I don't want that.

I've always been into aviation—as I said, I went paragliding for the first time at twelve with my mom. But it didn't really interest me that much for a long time. During puberty, you have other things that are important. But of course, my dad also crashed a plane, flew into a mountain, Kitzkesch in Switzerland. I was there, I think I was seven, seven, eight, I don't know. Oh wow. Yeah, and so aviation is just present in my family. And yeah, that's maybe also why safety is somewhat important to me. It has no commercial reasons, as I told you before, it's just something that occupies me and I also want it to be, that you can do it reasonably safely, yeah.

Before you became a flight instructor, you mentioned earlier that you also studied forestry? Yes. Why that, if you were already so into, probably, aviation? Ah, that, yeah, no,

So it really grabbed me. I only started with flying around 18, 19. At the beginning, it maybe wasn't as extreme as it gripped me. That actually happened during my studies too. And forestry was my second big passion, I have to say. So I could have imagined continuing that if this damn flying hadn't come along. Yeah. And, well, my grandpa was a forester, my uncle. So it comes from there a bit. And, yeah, so that, I could have imagined continuing that. It was a cool thing. But paragliding was so powerful and so, so, it shaped me so much, that I had to—I finished my studies, I didn't work in forestry anymore, I did my internships of course and everything, but then I just slipped straight into the paragliding scene.

But I don't regret it. Honestly, yeah, I really don't regret anything. Everything worked out fine. My family—I come from a family of academics and all that. My brothers, Heidisch is a dentist, Andrisch is a physicist, they're all doctors and such; they were obviously throwing their hands up in the air and saying, "You're going to be a flight instructor?" And, of course, that wasn't exactly sexy for the family at the beginning. Are you the youngest? But they've come around. Please? Are you the youngest? Yes, I'm the youngest. The baby of the family. Yeah, exactly.

And I just did my thing with being a flight instructor. And only when it started going well, even then, did they really accept it. And I think they actually envy me a little bit now and then for the freedom I have. Of course, because of that too, and the independence. Do they fly too? Oh yeah, that's next year. Exactly, they fly too. One of them finally got his license. He started with Mom, around '86, and now he finally has the license. Exactly. And the other one already had his license. And they're starting again now. So the three Geist brothers can take off in full again soon. That

the big ghost trio. Exactly. But then you have to explain the meteorology to him again or something. Or is the physicist more knowledgeable and can explain everything that's going on in the atmosphere? Ah,

Lucian, yeah, I don't know if you have siblings and all that, but I'm the baby of the family, the little brother. So they definitely don't take anything from me. I just send them to our flight instructors. And with my son, I haven't completely given up yet. He still listens to me, but my older brothers don't listen to me anymore. They actually still make noise through pain. They push through it.

Noise through pain. Well, you do SIV training too. Do you think your brothers would come to you for SIV training? Oh, one of them did, yeah, Wolfi. With you on the mic, sort of?

No, luckily not. I don't know if

he it

wants to try it out because he doesn't die. Probably a thousand deaths because he doesn't listen to me. No, those were actually my safety instructors and it must have been spectacularly funny. But I don't think I'll put myself through that anymore. I'm happy to give tips. But it's actually just like with the other pilots. I always say, I don't have to save everyone anymore. Of course, I don't know everything either, but I'm happy to pass on my knowledge to those who want to listen. And the others just have to try it out themselves. The

have to feel. Speaking of which, you just said they die a thousand deaths as safety trainers. Do people actually die a thousand deaths down there? I mean, I do...

...that with the SIV training for a day or two now. I mean, I'm relatively... well, of course, when I start the season again—it's starting again soon at Lake Garda—I'm already excited when the first pilot comes out. And I'm tense until I realize again, okay, I'm getting into my flow and I know, okay, I can just manage and handle all of this again. And I also think I've just seen a damn lot. That just gives me a certain composure and calmness. I think I've already seen the most spectacular maneuvers. Nothing has actually surprised me in the last few years. And because of that, I've actually become calm, or calmer, even on the radio. And I hope the students notice that too, and can then convey even more through it.

Since I don't do all the training sessions alone anymore—we have a good team of safety instructors now—I have a totally great spirit again. So that's just a wing, a lot to convey. I think if you do a huge amount of training or work very, very hard as a flight instructor, you eventually burn out somewhere, you just end up in some kind of rut. And I don't actually have that right now. I have the luxury of having a large team and can now pick out the best bits a bit, doing as many training sessions as I want, as I see fit for myself. And I'm also trying to convey ultra much again

to convey to the people. We were just talking about the shift in spirit among the flight students and so on, over the years, regarding the approach. For the people who come to your SIV training today, has that also changed over the years? Like, do you go in as a fresh A-license student today and say, I want to tear everything down and I want to fly straight into the saddle, or someone else? So this ambition, you mentioned social media, everything has to look great. They all have their GoPros on their helmets right away and of course it has to be cool, how you somehow

spiral down. They come in immediately, so really the young ones and so on, or yes, the parents too; they come in immediately and then they've done it brutally. They have

the whole

...performance to think about. They have to do the full style now, and it's already become pretty intense. I'd say it's increased a bit too. They don't take the time, they just want to go, bam, hey, I have to test everything out here now. And yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, I think it's kind of cool when they approach it with an open mind and do it that way. But it's changed brutally. Most of them aren't like that anymore—I mean, we're always talking about the editing, right? Most of them are already taking a higher, yeah, they're taking a higher risk there.

Is that sort of the "GoPro-ification" of things, in a way? You can see it on YouTube. GoPro-ification,

yeah. That

someone else landed like that, I want to land like that too, otherwise I'm not cool enough,

or what? Yeah, the more spectacular, the better. Cool, look at how I landed there and didn't even need the rescue. Yeah, yeah, they're out there, they're out there going crazy at times and they want to really let it rip. But of course, there's also the other side, the ones who are really ultra-defensive. And, well, that's the great mix, isn't it? At Lake Garda, everyone just comes together. You've got the Akku pro, who's just trying to learn his Helis or Rhythmics or even Infinite, mixed with someone who doesn't even dare to put their ears on over Lake Garda. And I find that really exciting during SIV training too, looking after these people individually. We always adapt the program to the pilot, or the pilot. And I think that's also the exciting thing about our job. The topic of being an educator. Unfortunately, we aren't trained for that, not at all, actually.

Well, that's always been the case. There are nervous breakdowns and people start crying. And of course, a lot of emotions come up. You see it really extremely often in SIV training because it puts people under so much pressure. It's exciting. I mean, it really is exciting. But I often tell my trainers and myself, people often arrive with a huge bundle of stuff. Sometimes from their private lives, which has nothing to do with paragliding. And in these extreme situations, I think that just comes out sometimes. But as a flight instructor and SIV trainer, you also have to be able to say, hey, there are problems there sometimes. That's not my department. We aren't trained for that. You just have to say, okay, we are trainers and we actually want to teach paragliding.

When over-motivated people come along who really want to tear everything down and stuff like that, how do you reel them in?

I usually rein them in myself. I mean, every trainer has their own concept. But I am that kind of trainer. I like to push people, of course. So, if someone is really determined, I'll push you over the

...limit, and then you'll get it right. Exactly.

Yeah, well, as long as it stays safe. I do watch them, of course. I know pretty well by now what each person can handle. Whether you believe it or not, many people don't believe me, but I actually think I have a very good sense of people. I just have to look at some people and know, okay, I have to grab this one like this, and this one like that, and I have to handle this one like this to keep him happy, and this one like that. And I think that's a skill that's very hard to teach. You either have it or you don't. And that also makes you a good trainer, if you know how you have to approach your counterpart. And I'll take them dirty if they want it. But I can also be really defensive if I notice, okay, this one is ultra-cautious. And they brake themselves, as I said, as well. I just let them do what they often want. And then they realize for themselves, okay, that actually doesn't work. Now I really have to listen to the trainer. And now we'll just build it up more logically. That's my approach.

Is there a really logical way to approach SIV training? I mean, which maneuvers should follow which?

Yes, so what do you mean by focal points? You know yourself, paragliding depends on the weather, right? And of course, we'd love to structure the whole training logically if I always knew for sure that we'd have exactly these five or six days of perfect flying conditions. Then it's obviously possible; you can structure it logically very well. But if you now know, okay, two days are already out because the weather is crap, then you have to replan accordingly. And that's also one of the big challenges as a flight instructor—that you say, okay, we always want to adapt the whole thing to the weather and the audience. I actually think the big focal points at the beginning are, of course, collapses. And by that, I really mean major collapses, so also full-acceleration collapses, reacting to those, because that's a pure reflex; you have to train that. You have to train catching the glider, you have to learn the reactions. And of course, all the stall stuff.

And the third point is the landing maneuvers. And where you set your priorities during the first training, I think everyone actually has to decide that for themselves a bit. You can test everything out, but of course, it might be that by the end of the training you can't do anything, nothing, 100 percent. But yeah, there is definitely a logical structure. Exactly, stalls and collapses, that's naturally the main topic overall, I think. And it sometimes hurts me so much when I look at these accident analyses—I mean, I'm in close contact with the DHV, I've worked with them a bit and so on. And when you look at the uninjured parts, it's really sad sometimes that people might still be alive or wouldn't be seriously injured if they had simply caught the collapse or had the stall a bit earlier. Yeah.

Is there, this is also very much thinking in terms of averages, but is there something like a basic skill that you keep discovering where you say, the pilots are actually lacking that?

Yeah, the speed, the reflexes, just... it really happens super fast sometimes. And that's where we're back at the topic of SIV training. That's where you just learn, I mean, that's the thing, right? I don't know how many times I can say this here, but at Arschlein you learn, oh boy, man, relax, there's the flight instructor coming,

there

I don't have to do anything.

tralala, relax here, birds here, there, blah blah blah. Yeah, that's all cool. That's true too. At the beginning, of course, you just have to slow people down a bit. But they also say, don't push it

so on the lines and other ways

What. Exactly. Now relax, take it easy, yeah. And that's, of course, absolutely correct at the level, yeah. But during SIV training, it's just Bam. Every second counts there. And if Bam already nods forward, then you have to catch Bam for a moment. And that, that's what overwhelms people. That's simply the issue. And you have to learn that. You can't, you can't say, I can somehow manage that, I'll get it done. No, those are reflexes that you simply have to learn. Just like riding a bike and, and other things too, yeah. It has to be fast.

Do you work with simulators?

Uh, you're opening up a whole can of worms there. Yeah, exactly. I like cans. So we actually, we actually jumped straight into this experience, history with the simulators at the flight school. We immediately bought 16 simulators for the flight school. Also from Gardasee. We have a few more down there. We have a set of, of enough simulators. I don't want to completely curse it and, and judge it. It does help some people. But of course, we haven't just started working with simulators recently, we've already done complete SIV training where we all sat in the simulators. And then did that. My experience is, yeah, for most it doesn't actually bring that much. So they fly out, we show it to them beforehand in the simulator, here the hands, there the hands. And then they fly out,

1,700 meters, Lake Garda, poof, everything's gone. And, well, I haven't seen a huge difference yet. I actually believe that it does help some people, in any case. Maybe in the beginner study even a bit more, with steering postures, like, how, what. During the SIV training, I tried everything. We once left out the theory completely, and it made almost no difference. We trained with simulators beforehand, then went into the air; it helped some people, but for others, it did nothing at all. I wouldn't say what's good or bad here. But I would never say that you have to have sat in a simulator beforehand so that you can do it out there. I believe you learn to fly by flying, of course.

Now add one more thing on top: a simulator with 3D glasses or something, where you actually get a flight simulated for you. Have you ever tried something like that?

No, but I don't want to demonize it. There are certainly people who have to make a living from it or do it. I'm not a simulator fan, you might have already gathered that. It might just be helpful for some people, but people don't fly that much anyway, do they? They're already so rarely in the air, and now they have to spend time sitting in a simulator too. Sure, commercial aviation says otherwise, right? I mean, everyone sits in a simulator there to maintain routine. But I also believe that a 747 is simply more predictable, right? You say, okay, there's this much thrust, then the plane does this and that. That doesn't work with our hang gliding. A lot of feeling is just involved there. So 80% feeling, 20% technique—that's not just a saying, I believe that's how it is. And hang gliders react differently depending on the air mass. I mean, those are just pieces of cloth we have over our heads, right? And they react differently in different air masses.

And that's why I believe you have to train your intuition and your senses; I mean, the simulator will certainly give you something, but it's not the ultimate learning tool right now.

Keyword, another keyword, I don't know if that's a thing for you too, mental training.

Oh, totally. Do you do something like that with your, like, so that you,

Yeah, I'm working on that. It's completely new territory for me. My girlfriend Erika is helping me with it. Exactly. We're always laughing about it. I mean, of course, that's one point. It's very clear. And I've been trying for decades to just incorporate that somewhere. But of course, there are also completely different types, right? One person says, "Wow, hey, I'm not paying anything for mental training. I want to go full-on action and just switch off." And then you have the people who really relate to it and just say, "Hey, that's awesome."

that's, that's clear to me. And I also think it's super useful to incorporate it somewhere. I'll also try to include that a bit in the future for the people who actually want it. We already tried that back then with the Yvonne Date, for God's sake, when she was just starting to go in that direction, and also with a few other mental coaches. Yeah, a very, very difficult topic. But it's part of it. I mean, anyone who does paragliding knows that fear and the feeling of happiness in paragliding are super close together.

and other approaches, I'll mention that for the topic,

difficult, but important. Yes, sometimes I get the impression that for some people, at least when flying, fear is an essential part of the feeling of happiness. So, they only feel happy upon landing if they've had a decent amount of fear beforehand, more or less.

At least from the way you describe it. The size of the balls grows exponentially in relation to the proximity to the landing field. So, sometimes I'd be interested in the image up there—I'd find it super exciting to actually see it during paragliding, directly from the instructor and the pilot, so everyone can see why we're freaking out, have huge eyes, or whatever. I find that super exciting. But paragliding really is such a fun, fun sport. And yes, of course, what gets chatted about later at the landing field and how people feel in the air often have nothing to do with each other. But where you're going with that, I think that's actually the difficult part to judge, even now for the beginners.

It's just a little dot, eight kilometers away, a red dot eight kilometers away. You don't know if that's Karl Uwe from Kastel-Brauxel, who's been trying to land for an hour and is freaking out, in plain German. Or if it's Kriegel, who's currently out in the X-apps. And learning to assess that—you can already see that with the pedestrian. Yeah, look, there's a paraglider up there, but you don't know exactly what's really going on in there right now, or what he's doing up there to keep the paraglider open at all, or whatever. Super, super difficult, right? It only really became clear to me a few years ago, actually, that people can't judge at all whether the person up there is having fun or fighting for survival. How do you even...

to your students? I tell them exactly that. That you can't tell. So if you see someone up there, it could be Kriegel surfing the Föhn wave, or it could be some random person stuck in the Föhn rotor who doesn't know how to get down.

I actually tell them exactly that. And they accept it too. They get it. And then it clicks for one or another. And I think it's cool to see. They start thinking about it more. Yeah, it helps. It definitely helps. And I think sometimes it's just a few very simple recipes. I mean, we're all relatively straightforward. Personally. Especially when it comes to paragliding. I just try to give people simple recipes. They usually remember them, and I try not to make it too complex. Of course, it's often more complex than people say. But I think exaggerating a bit or simplifying a bit sometimes just helps people.

that it stays in their heads. In the 20 years, almost 20 years, that you've been running a flight school and doing SIV training and stuff like that. Not only have the people changed a bit, as we've already discussed, but also the material they use. The paragliders have also evolved over the years. From the perspective of a safety-oriented person like you, let's say. Yes. On the positive side? This development? Yes, that's also a

very broad topic. Again

a can of worms. Haha. Another can of worms, exactly.

But an exciting one, of course. And yeah, you know, I also worked for paraglider manufacturers in the past, at Airwave, at Swing. I worked as a test pilot for two certification bodies, and that was an exciting time. I'm mega grateful for that. I actually managed to build up a bit of a reputation for myself there too, but I also learned an insane amount. I'm so grateful for the time I spent with the manufacturers and at the test centers, that I was able to experience that and simply learned a lot about paragliders. I even trimmed a freestyle glider once that sold well, and that was a great time. Because of that, I think I have a pretty good overview of what has happened over the last few decades. Man, I think you have to distinguish a bit. We can gladly talk about the two-liner topic later. But I think a lot has happened in the A-segment, a lot of it for the better.

I can remember, the first A-gliders were sometimes dangerous, you really have to say that. It sounds paradoxical now, especially regarding the stall stories. I mean, I had to interview Tony Bender once or something, and he always said, "Wow, hey, I'm not flying like an idiot, I'm not going to kill myself." That's still in his head. The gliders have actually, I believe, changed for the better in that regard, especially the stall stories and so on. I know gliders from back then that, if you steered them out wrong during a stall, went straight into a super stall to infinite. They went all the way down under the pilot's seat. If he was still a bit on the brake, made a good profile, they would just go completely through. I saw a video of a 1 to 2er Falcon, from a colleague of mine, that just went straight through perfectly. I haven't seen that in the last few decades.

Gliders have already developed brutally, especially in the lower classes; they offer incredible performance with good safety, and you rarely see complete outliers anymore—they still exist, but you see them less often than before. There were gliders back then that were really... I always genuinely wondered how they even passed certification. And some of them were actually really dangerous.

That means, at least when people come with A-gliders, can you be more relaxed as a safety trainer today than you were before?

Yes, on average of course. I mean, I do say there are still a few exceptions—I'm not naming any specific gliders or brands here, of course—but there are still exceptions, but on average it has gotten better. Yes, more comes, more comes beforehand. In the higher classes, I see that very critically. I mean, personally, I've actually said I'm only starting cross-country flying at 60. I come from the flight technique and acro stuff. Yes, but cross-country flying is also a lot of fun for me and I actually only fly two-liners now too, because I just enjoy them so much. But I'm also very clearly of the opinion, and that's why I think it's good that a few manufacturers are going back to the old-school way right now, just like Advanced, for example, in Sigma, DLS, just making a two-and-a-half-liner again or a three-liner, call it whatever you want.

we find that in that class you don't actually need it at all and can be safer or more relaxed, maybe just handle the storm with it. The fact is, we're actually only getting requests for two-liners in the C-class now. So that's pretty crazy, because everyone thinks it's cool and it's a bit like with single skins too, or you have to have one, or to just make a bit of a scene at the launch site or whatever you want to call it, like "I'm flying a two-liner now," but they definitely don't need it, not everyone in the C-class.

When you see the pilots who come to your SIV training with two-liners, give me a rough percentage estimate of how many of them would actually need such a glider because they really fly in a performance-oriented way?

Maybe 1 out of 10, if at all, I'd say. Two-liners only actually reach their full potential if you're just going full throttle one after another, or at least flying every passage at full throttle, and otherwise it's actually nonsense. Or I mean, the pilots—I've actually put a lot of thought into that, because there were a few here in our scene who were safety trainers or so-called two-liner experts, or whatever. A two-liner isn't a big secret; of course, the profiles are different and they fly a bit differently, but there's no big secret behind it. And I've exchanged views with all the test pilots and safety trainers we have good contact with. You just have to adjust the maneuvers a bit. Sure. The topic of fold lines.

Huge topic. I always tell, for example, to two-liner pilots who come for SIV training: please bring a two-and-a-half-liner or a three-liner with you so we can simply simulate the folding lines. Nobody can install folding lines anyway, they don't do it, so they just come with the gliders. I can't do that during SIV training, it costs too much time and so on. That's a huge topic, clearly, the two-liner. But I think many people aren't even clear that they don't actually need it. I mean, there's a handful of pilots, as I said, who really fly the two-liners to their limits.

And once you've simply learned how to handle the B-handles, you can fly more efficiently. Definitely. It's a great flying feeling that you'll never get with a two-and-a-half-liner. Even though simulating it often works well all the way down to the B-class, sometimes even in the A-class, you can buffer the turbulence a bit with the rear risers. But you have to learn it. So, what I've actually seen is that most people who fly two-liners can't handle the B-handles at all. I mean, they put their hands on them, but they don't dare to pull them. Exactly the same as with the brakes for beginners. They're often just not used. And that's one of the major focuses of my training: teaching people how far they can pull the B-handles. For example, I also have Sloths pull with the B-handles.

I have them catch French Pitches or some other launch-type wings with the B-lines so they learn how to handle them. Because that's actually the key with two-liners. And exactly. In my training program, I've tried out a lot of things myself. Someone who almost crashed once needed the wheels. When I was trying out some fun things with two-liners and thinking about what's important for the end customer afterwards with two-liners.

In training, there's the A-license and the B-license. Would you wish for something like a two-liner license? A two-liner license? Yes, where you, for example, first have to show with a two-and-a-half line B glider or something else that you can really handle the B-handles, so to speak, and can say, I can fly the most important flight maneuvers over B. And then you can also switch to the two-liner, for example.

That would be interesting. But we both know that there have simply been an insane amount of developments in the scene itself over the last few decades. And I don't think a license is probably the solution to that. I think just well-trained safety instructors who can simply address the public now would already be helpful. I mean, the gliders are very stable, fortunately, that has to be said clearly. Even here. Yes, they really don't do anything for a long time. It's already become really cool, that has to be said clearly. But they... well, many people can still be deceived, of course. I mean, the gliders can get nasty. You see that again and again. YouTube videos or in practice outside, or if someone comes along with a fold-in or whatever. Those are still weapons being flown there. But they have become enormously collapse-resistant, enormously stable.

A blessing and a curse, I'd say. I don't think a license would help much now, either. I think that's nonsense. I believe it'll sort itself out automatically again. So as I said, the good or renowned manufacturers are now at a point where they say, "Look, we're definitely making a three-liner C or a two-and-a-half-line C, and for whoever needs it for marketing or whatever, we'll do a two-liner version again or something." I think that's already good. Then you can choose. It's back to the pilot's own responsibility then, to somehow say, "Okay, do I need this? Am I pushing those last km/h or do I absolutely have to handle it? Or can I just fly normally?" I used to do that too.

If you could decide, if you were some kind of supreme guru and could say, I can turn back time, even if you rarely go back or look back into history. But if you could decide right now, I'm turning the wheel back and we're taking the folding lines out of the C-class again. You wouldn't allow that. Would you choose to say, no, it was actually a wrong development, really allowing the two-liner in the C-class, that they're becoming too widespread with it? And what would the solution be then, that there are no two-liners? There would only be three-liners in the C-class because the folding lines are not permitted.

Oh, that's a mean question.

So, I love two-liners myself for my own flying. But we also know, of course, that the fold lines can sometimes make the glider look a bit more docile. Actually, how it really works out or can be in real life, because the fold lines can, of course, be attached differently by the manufacturers and so on. So it was

a difficult question. I mean, there are still END two-liners. And even if they flew like today's C two-liners, there's still... for some people, there's a mental barrier. I don't want to fly an END glider, but a C glider, yes. And then they would say, then I'll just stick with a three-liner. And that step, the mental step, of feeling ready for a two-liner would be significantly larger, because you simply say, then I want to fly an END glider already. So they do exist, but...

Now I've understood your question correctly, what you're trying to get at. There are actually still people who take the classes seriously. Yes, yes. In my head, that doesn't exist anymore. It's kind of disappeared for me over the last few years. There are no classes. There are...

Chris Geist, the class-free flight instructor.

Don't screw with me, damn it. No, actually, for me... You know, as a test pilot, I've sat on committees and all that. So for me, this whole A, B, C, D thing has always fallen by the wayside. I don't actually rely on it anymore. For example, at our flight school, I only sell gliders that I've personally tested. Including full-acceleration collapses, stalls, and all that stuff, because I don't take it... I'm sorry to say it like this, but I don't take it seriously anymore. And in the C and D classes, not at all. From my point of view, it doesn't matter whether it says C or D. And yes, in that sense, it would be absolutely more sensible. It might actually deter one or two people if there was just a D on everything instead of a C.

That lowers the threshold for switching, doesn't it? Do I get that right? Yes. Then it would be good to actually abolish them again. And we can see now that with the latest ones, it was only a matter of time until the first B two-liners come out. It's very difficult. So yes, it just keeps getting harder to simulate the whole thing, to simulate the collapse and to show what the glider actually does afterwards. Until then, maybe more of that will be found out during the SIV training. And you can see that then. It was always like that, by the way, that the test pilots would often call me or something and ask, "Hey Chris, how is our glider doing in the SIV training?" Because there are no better test pilots than someone who has no clue. So the test pilots can always make the gliders look good or bad. I might have done that back then, unconsciously or maybe even consciously.

No, I didn't do it intentionally, but you can't really mess up as badly as someone who's never done it before. And that's why I think SIV training often shows how good or bad a glider is afterwards. If you can't simulate it anymore, it's just difficult. So, the thing with the four-liners and the two-liners gives me a bit of a stomach ache, because you actually can't properly represent the true face of the collapse anymore.

Do you experience in your training, from your observations of these C-gliders—even if you're not training collapses or anything like that—do you see things where you say, hey, a C-two-liner is simply riskier than a C-three-liner?

No, actually

Exactly. Or more demanding, at least? You actually see that less. I mean, sure, stalls do get a bit more demanding at times, but not necessarily. I know many C three-liners that are more demanding than stalls, but per se, maybe a bit more demanding in the stall stories. With C three-liners, you can still simulate the collapse. That sometimes distorts the overall impression a bit, but per se, I don't think you can make a blanket statement. Precisely because you can no longer include the collapse, how honest and how aggressive the glider really is when it just collapses over a large area. What I often actually lack, even with two-liner pilots—but it's always been like that—is that people get a bit overwhelmed just by the scene, or they say, hey, I have to fly the C two-liner or D now, but actually still belong in the B-class or

That's been the case for decades; it hasn't changed. It's actually always been the same—people often get overwhelmed and, even after some safety training, they'll say, "That's a bit too intense for me, I'd rather take one step back." I often see them realize, "Okay, personally, I'm maybe not there yet, or that glider is just not for me right now." It's sometimes sad to see people show up with C or D gliders who have never flown a doll in their lives. That's intense. It shows me they've skipped some steps somewhere. Usually, you come to safety training with an A or B glider, you've done a doll or something, and then you slowly move up to the next classes. Nowadays, I think there are many who just skip one or two levels with the gliders.

How many dolls should you have flown before switching to a C-glider? I mean, a C-two-liner?

That's a great question. So my classic saying is always about 50 to 100 dolls; then you have a rough idea of what happens out there. Below that, you basically always have a joker, right? You do one doll, it goes well, and the next time you fly past the wing and see a rescue. And that won't change until you've simply done 50, 100 dolls with your gear. And then, I think, an understanding just starts to build. I do a doll in every flight at every altitude because it's just important to me. I believe you can really only understand your paraglider 100 percent if you're a good stoller, or at least someone who can recognize a stall. And then you can fly reasonably well and safely, I think, even in thermals. It's also totally funny sometimes. Or people don't come to us for SIV training because they say, "Wow, dangerous" and stuff like that.

Hey, what a lot of people out there are doing, flying into some active thermals in strong spring thermals, is super dangerous. And the fact that they aren't always aware of that is pretty intense. So, a bit naive at times, of course. And then something happens again. And then you get caught again. But yeah, please do it. So, for me, SIV training is really, I think it's almost as important as the step from pedestrian to introductory course, to paraglider. There is the same leap again from someone who has never done SIV training to someone who has done SIV training, or has done it multiple times. It's just as big. It was a huge thing for me back then too. I drove to Adensee to see Karl. He was my SIV trainer. And I almost crashed because a control line got caught in my harness. Since then, there's been this...

Neoprene covers on the zippers on the side. And I thought, okay, I'm dying now. And it wasn't even that bad. And then, that was such an interesting SIV training for me. And I said, I have to do this more often so I can just get some confidence and find it. Otherwise, I'll probably just stop doing the whole thing again. And yeah, I think it's important to just know your glider well and know its limits. That doesn't mean that everyone has to do a full stop during their first SIV training. But in the long run, and especially in the CD class, there's nothing more important than stalls. So that's just part of the repertoire of a good pilot.

You said earlier that from your assessment, about one in ten C-glider two-liners could potentially fly out. Of those one or—let's say ten again—how many of them would meet your requirement of having already flown 50 to 100 stalls before switching to that?

None. That's just so sad. And yeah, but that's really an issue. It's something that naturally always occupies my mind. We're back to this idea of them overextending themselves, they overextend themselves. I don't always understand it, but it's probably just owed to our performance-driven society that no one says, okay, I'm going to fly with an A-glider or a Low B. Oh no, I can just go straight for a High B or a C. And that's kind of the thing about being able to fly the thing. There are really very few, I have to say. There are very few who really commit and say, I really want to get to know the glider, because that's not the goal of society at all. They want to fly for a long time, they want to fly far, they want to break records, but no one takes the time to really look into the flight technique.

It's a difficult topic and it's simply, yeah, kind of owed to this experience society, this Jochen-Schweizer society. A maximum experience applies to beginners in the lower classes just as much as it does in the upper classes. I have to fly my 200 kilometers, I don't care about anything else. And that's sad. I mean, it's really sad, because in the past, it was actually a bit more about the flying. No matter how, you'd also be happy about a small flight or a glide. Today, the performance mindset is just impossible to ignore anymore.

I'll open up one more small barrel.

Oh my god.

Or you? Well, almost not. You'll get it back later, Rufi and I. Small fry. Well, you get more than I do. Damn. Your statements about when people lose their minds or something. Next small fry, lightweight equipment. So the trend is always towards even lighter, even lighter. Everyone just wants to haul five kilos up the mountain or whatever. How do you experience that with your friends? At my SIV trainings? Probably on one hand, of course, the lightness of the canopy means less pitching moment and stuff like that, because there's simply less mass above you. But how much risk do you take for the various weather conditions or where you expose yourself when you opt for lightweight equipment accordingly?

Oh, lightweight gear. Yeah, that's a topic. So you're actually right. The demand is extreme nowadays. And at the beginning, I also asked, do you even need it? I mean, we have questions at our flight school now, of course, that are always critical. Do you even need a lightweight glider? And do you actually know the pros and cons of the piece of equipment? And lightweight sells well, just like with bicycles and skis. Carbon instead of fitness, obviously. That's a bit of a thing with us too. Many people just don't need it. I mean, you see very often that those who have the ultimate lightweight gear still just take the train up. A double-edged sword. Yeah, exactly. I also actually think that in terms of durability, many lightweight gliders are now, of course, not that great or robust, depending on the manufacturer and so on. Many people do that. But it's also not clear that these lightweight gliders are just a bit faster to wear out.

Sure, they have advantages, as you said. The launch and flight moments are often a bit better. But you also have to get used to the rustling of the glider, I'll say that once. And it actually seems to me that many people just don't need it and don't require it. The second point is that many manufacturers now also write, especially regarding their harnesses, that they are not allowed or made for "SIV training" in quotation marks, because we actually see this very often, that something rips on the lightweight harnesses. Luckily, not now. Often not load-bearing parts.

It has also happened before, where it actually reached the load limits, which can happen quickly with a wingover or a spiral dive, or with longliner gliders. That's a topic. So I think you really should critically question whether you need it or not. We have many mountain guides here in the Allgäu, of course, who come to us. I can't just sell a Sachse S5 with a heavy glider. That just doesn't work. But critically questioning whether I really need the lightweight material or not, I think that's important. In the Alps, lightweight material might actually make a bit more sense sometimes, because you often start in zero wind, or the advantages during launch are impossible to ignore. I know many manufacturers who simply make a lightweight version so that the glider launches better.

But then, in windy conditions, the extreme disadvantages of lightweight material also show up, of course. It doesn't stay on the ground; you even have to use special techniques just to get the lightweight glider into the air in strong winds.

If a student comes to you now and simply asks, "How do I find my perfect, right glider for me? How do you do that?" Wow,

quite difficult. I mean, everyone knows by now, of course, that we flight schools also live a bit off of sales. It's a bit sad. Sometimes I'd prefer it if we were more independent from sales. But I've also just taken some of the pressure off myself. I don't have to sell a glider to everyone or anything like that. I think it's great, of course, when you get good advice and don't just buy something random on the internet that might turn out to be a wrong purchase and so on. But what was the question again?

Exactly. But how does that person find their right glider? Well, that's...

Pandora's box, a testival, or something. We just did another testival, and I think it's mega cool. I'm happy about the people who come and do things. But honestly, what do people want to find out there? I mean, it's like when I buy a car. I just sit in it, boom boom, it has a gas pedal, it has a steering wheel, it drives, okay. I can't say much more about it. And that's how it is for many. Even those who get a testival, they take five gliders and fly them down. With one, they hang up there for half an hour. Suddenly it's a great glider, with another they make a mistake and suddenly it doesn't start or doesn't catch thermals or something. Very difficult. And for a beginner, impossible. So we don't offer testing paragliders at all, for example, at our flight school. So for beginners who are just learning paragliding, that makes zero sense in my view, because they just don't—you can't judge that. That goes

No. But can you even judge that from the outside? For example, you see your students running down the slope, pulling up their glider and stuff. And then you know, you're an Alpha type, you're a BGD type, or whatever. From me, you get the Subair because that somehow fits you better.

Yes, that's possible. And that's actually the sensible way to do it. But for that, people need to have a bit of trust in their flight instructors again. I do think that flight schools have often gotten a bad reputation over the last few decades, or 20 years.

Some flight schools are really shitty, you have to say that clearly, or they have poorly trained staff or whatever. But you also have to have a bit of faith and not always think you're going to be ripped off right away or something, or that they just want to sell you something. Instead, I personally take myself out of that as a flight school director, for example. I put that completely on our flight instructors, and they recognize very well, "Hey, this glider fits him." And often, much more importantly, I can fly with a high load in the glider or should I maybe stay more in the middle weight range because he's still a bit there and so on. You can do that, but the person can really hardly judge that, or not at all from my point of view. You have to rely a bit on the flight school and hope that you landed at a good one that offers you honest and open advice. How do you become a good flight instructor?

You're asking the wrong person, look at me. I was able to hide as a bad teacher for a long time. No, actually, we currently have a really great team at the flight school with really good male and female flight instructors. I'm totally happy about that. That's why working here is so much fun right now. I think as a flight instructor, you need a bit of a calling, if I may say so. It's difficult. You just have to enjoy teaching other people. And I think that's the key. Many people come to us, they apply. We have a huge number of applicants as flight instructors, by the way, because many of them want to change jobs and just want to work as flight instructors. But with many of them, they're just still so obsessed with flying—I often tell them, please go fly for yourself first and get another job. Because as a flight instructor, you often don't even get to fly that much anymore.

Sure, it's still possible, but maybe not as much as a long-haul pilot who can somehow clear their head from work every day and so on. And you just have to enjoy conveying and teaching something to other people. And that feeling afterwards as a flight instructor—if you take one, for example, a classic case: when I opened the flight school, I did all the first courses myself. Everyone from that first course became a flight instructor or a hobby pilot.

So, the battery-powered pilots are still flying, but I really pushed them hard. I gave them a hell of a time because I had this incredible ambition to turn every single one of them into a perfect pilot. I'm not quite that extreme today. Because I've simply accepted that there are also people who don't want to be the perfect pilot, but just want to fly safely, hopefully. And I've learned that over the decades. That was my lesson. But if someone really wants to learn, then I'm happy to take the time. And that's just the beauty of being a flight instructor—watching someone go from a complete beginner to a really good pilot is just awesome. And you have to enjoy that. Saying, I'm conveying this and I'm training them to be a good pilot. That's what I love about the flight instructor job.

It's not about the money. Well, as a flight instructor, you lay the foundations for your students. In a way, you're implanting a pilot DNA somewhere, doing a bit of genetic engineering, so to speak. So, what's the legacy I get when I'm trained by Chris Geist? I mean, not every flight instructor of yours does it the same way, they probably do it a bit differently. But what is it that makes you say, "Hey, they went through the Chris Geist school"?

That's a difficult question. Well, I think you'll recognize it by good flight technique—that he or she places a lot of value on a good takeoff. So, the basics, let's put it that way. Good takeoff technique, good landing technique, and thinking a lot about flight technique, and also actually doing flight maneuvers, I believe. Because flight maneuvers and this whole flight technique thing, that's a bit of my thing. And he just has to be able to push out a stupid comment every now and then, because I do let those slip out occasionally. They're always meant as a joke, of course, but that's a bit of my thing. So, pushing things a bit to the extreme. But I think good flight technique would be what distinguishes my students, I believe. And that he doesn't

isn't extremely overwhelmed, but rather just a bit of an understatement. Maybe he's also very hard on himself. Because I do that with myself, for example. I'm not quickly satisfied with myself either. I work, I always try to work on myself a lot. And I'd also like to pass that on, that people just start working on themselves a bit and not always... I get so annoyed. Like, if someone comes to me and says, "Yeah, the weather and the instructor are to blame and everything, and the glider is crap," well, you won't get anywhere for yourself like that. You always have to look for the fault in yourself. Every good athlete and every good sportsman knows that.

that they're hanging seven meters below the glider at the beginning. And people who recognize that and want to learn from me, I give them a huge amount of...

with, I think. Well, you do offer private coaching, so basically one-on-one support. People can come to you, or to your other flight instructors, and say, "I want some further training." What is actually in the highest demand there? I mean, where are the big sticking points, where do you notice, "Hey, these people are coming back and saying I need help again"?

We expanded these private coachings extremely during Corona. Unfortunately, they're the kind of thing you can't make a living from as a flight school. Otherwise, I'd do it much more often. But we always offer it, of course. And it's very different. One person just wants to make their first cross-country flight relatively safe with a bit of R2R coaching. Lots of basics, too. Many come and say, "Hey, I had an accident, I really want to start over and just learn proper takeoff technique." A lot of work is done on the basics there, and they are so grateful. I think it's just awesome because they get my full attention, or the trainer's. And it's a lot of money. No question, you can't afford that. I think it costs about 500 euros or something per day right now. And for someone who isn't a high earner, that's a lot of money. No question.

But I don't really know anyone who went out and said it wasn't worth it at all. Everyone took something away from it, a lot, and worked on their personal issues. A lot of basic stuff. Like taking off, landing, or just incidents that happened, and they'd say, "Wow, I hit a tree here" or "I had an accident here," and they just have to get that out of their heads now, and then they work on it. It often involves that mental side again. And as a trainer, you can naturally focus and concentrate on that much more.

How much does that have to do with the fact, especially where you mention basic stories, that people who maybe learned 10 or 15 years ago learned with different material? Back then, the noses were much heavier, there was a Müller in the front, you had to run into it or something like that to get it up. Whereas today, with a light glider with Nitinol rods in the front, you only have to do it once and it basically comes up already, and if you give it too much input, then of course something happens. It shoots up and you're just completely chasing after the glider, especially if there's more wind and stuff like that. So to what extent does the development of the material have to do with the fact that people today basically haven't developed themselves accordingly? Yes, that is really...

That's intense. So, it's good that you're bringing that up right now. A lot of images just flashed through my mind. There are many flight schools that say, "Yeah, I don't train with Pi because you can get a sack of flour into the air with that." And that's completely counterproductive. I mean... on one hand, of course, it's incredibly cool. I can still remember my early days, where we just had to nudge the Filous at the fence to get them to take off at all. One out of ten attempts worked because everything really had to be perfect and so on. That's gone today. No question. And maybe, sure, it's also because people simply have no need to work on their technique anymore. But it's really astonishing that even though the gliders take off so well, you see so many blobbers around each other. I mean, there are endless videos on the internet, but on a good day in a—in a, I can't say it anymore, in the easily flyable sites...

you see so many crazy, bad launches. It's really... I mean, other pilots notice that too. Usually, funnily enough, it's the ones who have just put in a lot of effort. They come out and are completely disillusioned. They think, wow, what they're doing here is like day two of an introductory course. And then they fly 100 kilometers or something. Really crazy. I mean, the basics are missing from every direction. I also know many step-gliders who need five or six attempts to get into the air even in perfect conditions. Then they fly really great once they're up there. But it's a long way to get there. They miss the entire flight window because they simply can't launch. And the fact that there's no demand to somehow eliminate that, sometimes I find it pretty crazy. And that hasn't changed. It's actually almost gotten worse. Probably because the gliders launch so easily now, there's actually no need to be able to launch well.

Another thing regarding the development of the technology. You mentioned earlier, when it came to SIV training, that people often don't have those fast reactions at the beginning. They come out of the training and are all like, "I'll just pull a bit here and a bit there." Well, it's also the case that these modern gliders, especially those that have come onto the market in the last few years, have a trend where they basically have very pitch-stable profiles now. So as a pilot, you have to work much, much less nowadays because the glider does everything. So it doesn't shoot out anymore, or it does so much later, or only if I maybe let go at the wrong time and then have the brake pulled just five centimeters, then suddenly the S-turn is out of the top and it suddenly does much more than it normally would.

Of course, it also trains the pilots in a negative way, that they don't have to do much anymore, and they basically become a lazy pilot down there because the glider does everything. So, is that basically a nice, positive development on one hand, but also a negative one because it makes the pilots lazy?

Absolutely. I have to give you that. That's actually how it is. Well, the manufacturers have simply adapted to the audience and the profiles have become super stable. And like you said, there's a lack of input. But when the glider comes, you have to be fast. And that's exactly the crux of it, of course, how to solve the problem. So I'm happy about the more stable gliders and also about the more stable harnesses. I actually discussed that with my girlfriend the other day. She comes from a time when you just had these seat-style harnesses that were ultra-tippy. So if you flew those things again today, you'd think, holy crap, you used to fly something like that and you didn't piss your pants. Insane. Back then

the gliders were different back then too. Back then you flew with 28 square meters, whereas today you fly with 25, which are much more agile and tippy on their own.

Exactly. And today, of course, we have efficient brakes. So, it's that thing again where the old-timers always say, don't fly without a seat board. But I fly almost everything without a seat board now because the gliders don't need them anymore. They've become so efficient with the brake. Of course, you're still taking your body weight into account, no question, and you're still working with body weight. But in the new era, I'd say, where the gliders have gotten smaller, have more efficient brakes, more efficient profiles, it actually doesn't play such a big role anymore. From my point of view. But the issue of cross-loading, sure, that's still there when the gliders come in and so on; you're already somewhat faster to react if you're not careful, and when combined with a pilot who's still sleeping or doesn't have that reaction yet, the risk increases extremely.

I saw it again the other day. So, it's that weather issue again—flight technique is disappearing or blurring a bit somewhere. It was another Föhn weather situation, but still good for flying, of course. And on a small cross-country flight, 50, 60 kilometers, I observed three total destroyers. Not with you. Not with me. I also... I have

looked into the canopy and observed three total losses.

But just observed and then did nothing, just watched. Exactly.

Yeah, I mean, as a flight instructor, you have to see how your students do it too. They look up and nothing happens. Right.

No, okay. That's actually the difficult thing about battery flying and testing, because when you're battery flying, you always intervene, but when you're testing, you're not allowed to. And that's really

but actually, in this one exception, it wasn't my total destruction, but rather what I observed with other pilots. And yeah, it was really interesting to see somewhere. The Föhn somehow showed its effects there too, and of course, there were active south faces, with a bit of lee side involved as well. Interesting. And yet, many pilots were simply overwhelmed. There were a few super good ones who reacted well, but also a few who did absolutely nothing. And it was just luck that they didn't crash into the bed or crash into something. And yeah, it's difficult. So, the more stable profiles—a blessing and a curse, I'd say. I love them because as a pro, you simply have to compensate much less. You can maybe even dare a bit harder turbulence where you used to get tired quickly and would just get exhausted and drop out of the flight.

It's really insane today how much they dampen the canopies. Exactly. But I know just how quickly they can come in. And then you have to be fast. And that's this reflex, this reaction time, which of course everyone lacks. They only notice after three turns that something isn't right and often don't think about the rescue device. And that's exactly why training is important. So that, just from doing an SIV training, you automatically think about the rescue device more often, and you reach for it more often. And that just helps you a lot later on when flying in thermals.

Chris, last question. We talked about further training, private coaching with you and stuff like that. If you were to do it yourself again...

...continue your own training, wanted to, so without pain, meaning learning without pain. Yes, yes, learning without pain. What would that be and with whom would it be? Oh,

oh.

Well, I'm getting old now too. 47, I think you said. You said it, but I'll believe you for now. Right, I said that. I have to ask Mom. Or Xing or LinkedIn. It's probably written somewhere. So I actually wouldn't do any more training from the younger ones. I mean, I do exchange a lot with the young people now and they approach paragliding a bit like I used to, but a bit more radical or in a slightly different way with a different understanding of it. And I can't really work my way into that anymore. From them, I would, I would, I would rather, well, what does "rather" mean, I would like to learn something from them, because the new generation approaches paragliding in a completely different way, of course, with completely different technical knowledge and a huge pool of information,

how we did it and built it back then. So, if I were to do any further training, I'd do it with a young, talented,

...who hasn't been flying for that long, young talented long-haul pilots or something, maybe go back to school for a bit and just see how they, like, how they approach certain topics.

What do you mean by more radical? You said they're more radical today than you were back then.

were. Yeah, exactly, there's the issue of weather and performance mindset again; they're becoming like the battery flyers today. I'm coming from the perspective of flight technique and batteries—back then we had unsuitable hours and gliders, we even trimmed some of them ourselves, and as far as I remember, with one or two gliders—those were back then, one or two gliders—that were fortunately very aggressive, we tried triple loops. No one would dare that today. So we'd go straight over the sail three times until the glider just died and you fell past the sail again. No one will probably dare that in that sense anymore, but they go out now, they have great gear and they push the limits more, and it's the same with cross-country flying. They have two liners now,

four profiles and fly very fast, very efficiently, radically, and they often don't even know what to do when the glider just collapses or something, so they just go, they just push really hard. But I also think that's kind of cool. I don't want to judge that at all. We pushed back then too. The weather topic again. With the weather, I was, as I told you before, just always a bit defensive and cautious. Regarding material and flight technique, I was always at the limit too, and then I see the people, the cross-country pilots today, who push already brutally. The kind of lays they fly into, bending their gliders and so on. But they don't give a damn.

and not as a reproach, for God's sake. And many also know what they can expect and are really good pilots. But the imitation effect is of course not entirely ruled out. I know many, right here locally or what, who then follow the good ones around with significantly less flight technique. So I think you have to look at your own nose again and say, hey, can I really handle it if the canopy collapses or gets destroyed or not? Or am I even thinking about the rescue device at all?

What would you learn from them? From these radical youngsters who just carve into every lee and fight their way through? Is it just the radicality of the line choice or what is it?

Yeah, they sometimes have these totally awesome approaches where you, as a "pro" with decades of experience, might overthink things a bit. Like, "Hey Chris, just take the line, bam, right in there." That's what I find so exciting. And then you try it and think, "Yeah, fuck, he's right." You never would have thought of it like that before. They just have this, yeah, this slightly "naive" but still good...

basic understanding. I benefit from them. I mean, I'm someone who really loves learning. I hope I don't stop learning until I drop. And I think at 47, you can already say, okay, the new generation is arriving now. And I can learn and benefit so much from them again. For example, we have a racing team now, just a group of fun, crazy pilots who are much younger than I am. And I learn a lot from them. So that's exciting for me too.

What was the last thing where you really had an "aha" moment?

My last "aha" moment.

I can't think of a massive "aha moment" regarding flying right now. But I think, besides the fact that I still believe you have to stay defensive when flying—if the air doesn't feel right, you'd better go for a landing. Of course, I often push through conditions where I know exactly, okay, a total destroyer could come along now, but I'm prepared for it. But I think many people don't have that sensitivity to the air; we touched on that at the very beginning of the conversation—you have to learn that, you have to train it. And if it doesn't feel right in the air, maybe say it more often; the girls are incredibly good at that. I learn a lot from the girls and women there. Of course, there are also radical girls who push through, just like the guys do. You know that yourself, especially in the competition scene with the aerobatic and cross-country flyers.

But on average, I have to say that all the women I've trained, or the girls I go flying with, have a great understanding of the air and listen to themselves and their gut much more, saying, "Hey, why did you land today? I just didn't feel it today." Or "That was just too much for me today," or something like that. A guy probably would never admit that. They just push through and then crash, and then he crashes. And I think we can sometimes learn a bit from the other gender and just listen to our gut feeling a bit more sometimes.

So guys, discover more of the female side of flying. Chris Geist, discover your female side.

That was actually the essence of it today.

Good. Chris, thank you for your story. I'm looking forward to your feminine side. On

the side

about flying and everything else that comes with it. Me too.

It was super fun with you. And yeah, it was nice that we talked.

That was great. Thank you.

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