At least I believe that in some coastal areas, on some islands, in some regions, very, very few people have flown before us, and it's just how it is—I have that explorer gene in me, and it's totally beautiful when I can discover something new, even if it's just a kilometer further along the coast the next day, a new, beautiful little spot where I can take off.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast. Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Tommi Hofbauer and I am Lucian Haas.
How many cells and what wing loading did the Nova Mentor 4 actually have? Which light gliders with ENC and less than 3.5 kilograms of weight are currently on the market? Anyone who wants to answer such questions can tediously browse the internet. Sometimes you even end up looking at older glider pages that are still archived somewhere. Or you can use an online database where all this information has already been compiled.
The corresponding website is called Parafinder.at. It goes back to an idea by Tommi Hofbauer, who now runs the project together with his wife Ulrike and the programmer Christian Groß. They all put a lot of time into it. Not because they could make money from it. It's simply part of their lived passion for paragliding. From which the entire scene ultimately benefits. Speaking of passion, have you ever heard of the Hike & Fly competition series Border Race? Tommi Hofbauer is involved there too. Not just as a successful participant, but also as an organizer for over 10 years. What drives him in all his commitment, that and more, the 53-year-old tells us in this episode 158 of Podz-Glidz.
We also talk about Tommi Hofbauer's story, and also about why Tommi now almost prefers flying on lonely coasts rather than in the mountains.
Since you're listening to the podcast, why not become a supporter of Podz-Glidz? It's explained very simply on the Lu-Glidz Gleitschirm-Blog, specifically on the support page.
Tommi, do you actually wear a life jacket when you're flying along the coast? Yes, I have to
admit, not anymore. Not anymore? Not anymore, yeah. I actually always wore a life jacket at the beginning, and I always tell my wife, Uli, the same thing. But yeah, with all the changes in flight areas, the wind conditions, going out, it's just cumbersome. But still, for me, I have the utmost, utmost respect for the water. And I always need to have some options, even if it might not look like it sometimes in videos and such. But it's there, I suppose. I always keep my options open. But not with a life jacket, yeah. But that a life jacket doesn't always prevent the worst, we saw that recently on the Portuguese coast.
Even with a life jacket. I mean, I don't think you should rely on the life jacket there either. Especially when the sea is quite rough.
You often fly along the coast and in your videos—you also say it in the videos—it might look a bit different. But you also frequently fly over water. It's really steep coastline. Maybe sometimes there's only a very narrow strip of sand at the bottom where you could still land with a glider, perhaps. But then the glider might still fall into the water anyway. So it's dangerous too. How risky is something like that actually from your perspective?
Yes, as I said, the options just have to remain open for me. That means if I do it, the wind simply has to be strong enough. And the forecasts show that it's not going to drop. I just always keep that in mind. And very often, it's still the case that you can reach the beach at the glide angle. Even if it might be immediate, like when you're flying over a cliff and there's simply nothing left to land on below. Where does your fascination come from?
...for coastal flying?
It's not just coastal flying that fascinates me. But for me, it's just an incredibly beautiful contrast. So, around that time. Now, of course, there's thermal flying. I really enjoy that. And tandem paragliding with my wife. But that feeling on the coast... especially since we just don't have that at home. I mean, at home we have high mountains, strong thermals. But this feeling of just letting your soul dangle. And also in the countries we like to travel to. It just fits together incredibly well for us. And that's also something I really like doing with Uli, my wife. She enjoys it just as much as I do. You
You said you live in the high mountains. So you're basically a mountain kid. What was it that first drove you to the coast to say, I'll give this a try?
Yeah, it was actually a friend of mine from Vienna. A flying buddy who traveled to Denmark for the first time through another friend. And yeah, I remember it like it was today, actually. That first trip to Denmark. When we just drove all the way to the beach. Parked the car. And practically took off from the trunk in front of the car. Flew. And then just sat there happily next to the car. That was actually the first contact with the coast and all that.
Was that a moment of freedom for you too? That feeling of being able to basically launch out of the car and then fly up and down along the coast. Yeah,
absolutely. So up until that point, flying in Denmark was our main focus. And yeah, I didn't know the Horn at all. And yeah, I noticed right away. Okay, now I need to learn different skills even better. Especially handling the strong wind. That was actually taboo for us, or at the time I was flying. At those kinds of wind speeds. You kind of think that
that you can fly there. Was it part of the fascination for you that you can actually still fly in such strong wind? Yes, that's one thing. And
And on the other hand, actually, how little it takes to fly. I mean, wind is obvious. But what was fascinating was, like, the moments where we start at these high edges. That was, like, it was clear that it's possible. But then, how we tried to fly along those edges. The edges keep getting deeper, deeper, deeper. At some point, the edge is only as far as I am from the glider, so high up. And you just keep flying. And at some point, you're standing on the beach. And the next moment, you're actually two steps from the edge again. And it dries up again. So the feeling is just insanely beautiful. Like this ground-level playing with the wind, playing with the elements. It was just totally beautiful.
If you look at your YouTube channel, you can see that you've traveled along a whole range of coasts by now and tried all sorts of things. You've always been looking for new flight spots, too. You've been to Scotland, Brittany, Normandy, Denmark, and Portugal. What are you always looking for there?
I was unfortunately born in this era. Or thank God, because that's when I can go paragliding. But I think if I had been born a few hundred years earlier, I would have been an explorer. I just love exploring new things. It's just so hard to explore new things in today's world, because everyone has done something at some point. And that's just the thing for me. But I say, okay, this is new. And at least I believe that on some coastal cliffs, on some islands, in some areas, very, very few people have flown before us. And that's just how it is. So yeah, I have that explorer gene in me. And it's totally beautiful when I can discover something new.
And even if it's just the next day, maybe a kilometer further along the coast, a new, nice little spot where I can take off.
Do you always just start from official launch sites? Or can you actually drive along the coast and say, "Hey, the wind is right here, that looks launchable from the next meadow. I can jump over that fence. Let's get going."
In principle, it's these coastal areas. So, they're relatively undeveloped from a flying perspective. I mean, Denmark, yes, there are many official flying sites there. But when I think back to Scotland last year, there was this island, the Isle of Mull. Surprisingly, there were four official flying sites. It became clear to me afterwards why. There's a company and someone who actually runs them there. And somehow, before the trip, we thought, well, let's see what awaits us. Because there are only official flying sites there. That's why these flying sites—well, they were nice, but they were far from the highlights we discovered there.
And those were usually not official flying areas. It's just that, from a flying perspective, so few people fly there that it doesn't need to be an official flying area. What it does need, in my view, is a certain sense of awareness from the person doing it. And other people's property, ownership, and so on, must be absolutely respected. But we actually only had absolutely positive experiences in that regard. I mean, when you ask, people are usually enthusiastic. To put it briefly, about 99% of the places we took off from were not official flying areas.
Have a feel for the situation. You also often seek out contact with the locals, the landowners or something like that. And you talk to them and say, I'd like to go flying here, would that be okay with you?
Yeah, as long as they aren't really sparsely populated areas where there's simply no one around for miles. I mean, in Scotland, we had it exactly like that—hundreds of sheep who didn't care at all. You can't ask the sheep. Exactly, you can't ask them. So I think I have a good feel for what can be done now, so that it's in harmony with nature and also with the local people.
...do well. Out of all these countries and coastal sections you've traveled to—Scotland, Britain, Normandy, Denmark, Portugal, and so on—is there something you'd say was your favorite? What fascinated you the most? No, I can't really...
I can't really say, because every country has its own thing. For example, in Denmark, it's the land itself, the way it radiates such peace, and then specifically flying close to the ground because there are so many sand dunes there. In that sense, it might not be as scenically spectacular as Portugal, like the Algarve, or Normandy, Etretat—those white chalk cliffs. Of course, those are insanely beautiful with the caves if you can fly over them. But it's a different kind of fascination. So I couldn't really say; I would travel to each of these countries again immediately, and multiple times.
You're a very experienced pilot now, but what would you tell someone who says, "Tommy, tell me, I want to go to the coast, what skills do I actually need for that? What should I pay attention to? What should I maybe practice to get off the ground safely at the coast?"
Yes, good ground handling is definitely key, as is experience with headwind—which is something you can also practice well at home on windy days, which is what many pilots do. So, on the meadow behind the house or somewhere, a well-maintained meadow, perfecting the reverse launch technique there, the handling with the glider. I believe that everyone who can handle the glider well and is good at it basically has the hang of it in the air, and that is certainly a prerequisite. I'll say, of course, you can also do it on-site; if, for example, at a relatively harmless soaring area like Denmark, where there's very little lee and so on, you can of course also practice that perfectly on-site at the beach.
The question is always, do I want to do that? Because many people have limited vacation time, and when I'm there, I actually want to fly and get into the air; I don't want to spend the time learning how to launch just so I can eventually fly at some point. So, you can just do it well...
to shorten. In the videos you've published, you can see that you basically switch your gliders. One time you're flying some kind of Low-B, then a C-glider, but then you also fly a Flair Mustache on the coast at times. What do you look for when choosing which glider to take?
Well, the Flair Mustache is a whole other chapter, but otherwise, we're often lucky enough to be able to test Nova gliders, and I like to fly with a Low-B one sometimes. Personally, I'm flying a Xenon now, which is a D-glider, but I like to try different things and the choice of glider is, of course, a bit based on the area and mainly, of course, the wind strength. And flying with Flair gliders now—that was something I wouldn't have thought possible two years ago—that's a completely, completely different dimension that's being added now.
What's different about this dimension? The
The possibilities and the ease. So, from my point of view, this trend towards Flair gliders—I think nine or ten manufacturers offer them now—is fascinating on one hand because of the possibilities, but on the other hand, it's also a clear call to people who fly them: these gliders are incredibly easy to launch and fly, but that doesn't mean they're as harmless as they actually seem. Otherwise, if there's 30 or 35 km/h wind on the coast, you'd only have gotten into the air with a Flair glider using a very small glider and absolutely great skills.
Nowadays, you can get into the air with mediocre to almost no skills at 35 km/h with a Flair glider. But that doesn't mean it's safe. Especially if you want to use what the gliders
can do. By "use," you really mean converting speed into altitude and then back into speed again, really swinging up and down like that, and everything else you can control with the brake on those. Is that what you mean by "use"?
Exactly, that's what I mean. And I can observe it now from, let's say, an experienced perspective, from my point of view. But also from a beginner's perspective regarding Flair gliders, looking at Uli. So Uli is a very cautious pilot, but for someone who hasn't been flying long, she has truly excellent launch technique. And actually, I told her, no, more or less I told her she shouldn't fly with the glider at the beginning. And then on good days, she tried it and I saw she's handling it. I was already aware of that before, that she's handling it. But she has this, yeah, that she flies the glider, actually like a normal glider.
That means she doesn't actually use this dive and this speed collection. She flies it like a normal glider, but she has that safety that if the wind picks up, she's back on the ground immediately. And if you use it that way, it can definitely be done with less experience.
Aren't you sort of, "quotation marks," spoiled once you've flown a Flair Mustache on the coast? Do you even want to use a normal paraglider for coastal soaring anymore? Yes, absolutely.
So I'm not spoiled. I mean, there are conditions where it's the perfect choice. But whenever it's about scraping, that is, when the wind is such that you can hold yourself with a normal glider—let's just say, in quotes, it doesn't matter if it's an A-glider or some D-glider—then for me it's actually always just more fun with a normal glider. And especially this exploring, where you say, okay, you start at a point and you don't really know what's further left, what's further right, except for what you see until the next ridge. So this feeling out towards the next ridge, then estimating, okay, can I make the next bay? Okay, where can I run?
And then this feeling of exploring, like, how far can I fly along this coast? You just can't do that with a flare glider. In truth, they actually have terrible performance, but at the corresponding wind speeds, the glider's performance is secondary. And then, of course, the flare glider plays to its great strength. But at normal wind speeds of around 20, 25 km/h, I love it with completely normal
with our gliders. You also do tandem flights, even with your wife. Do you also do tandem at the coast? At the coast, I fly
I actually do tandem quite rarely. We usually have someone with us. But it's usually not some random acquaintance who's looking at us with wide eyes and saying, wow, how does that work, can you do that? And when I get the feeling, okay, that could be cool, I just say, you know what, I have a tandem with me. How about it? Shall we go for a round? Yes, I've had some really beautiful experiences there. And there, it's more about tandem flying, because Uli actually likes flying on the coast herself. So Uli doesn't like flying thermals. I can get her excited about flying tandem immediately. But on the coast, we both actually fly with our
Solo gliders. You say Uli, your wife, doesn't really like flying thermals. Why not? Or rather, why does she like it in a tandem?
Isn't it more intimidating for her if she sees the launch site from above or is very high up? Then, of course, there's the turbulence in the air that just comes with the thermals. Like that swaying and all that. Why does she like it with me? Yes, because she simply trusts me to know what I'm doing. Even if it shakes and rattles properly at one point. And with a strong board, if we're out on a route, that's a bit, yeah.
Have you ever experienced thermals on the coast that allowed you to spiral up really high? Maybe under special weather conditions?
Actually, it's relatively rare because we try, whenever there's the opportunity, to fly right on the water, and it's actually very, very rare there. Well, okay, now what you're saying. Once on a sailing trip in Croatia, we were on some island, Lamm or something, as they called it. It was indeed the case that we docked there with the catamaran. Then we went up the mountain, and there were three paragliders there. It was like this: we first sorted out the top in this bay. Then it was just a slow flight down. And we wanted to land in that tiny harbor with a restaurant. And when we landed, we said, okay, actually it's still drying quite well.
And then we headed out into the sea a bit, further and further. It kept getting better. Suddenly, it started rising by a meter. And then, at sunset—I don't know how far out, but really far out—it started rising over the sea. So, that was... that was a long time ago. And we were totally blown away because, of course, rising over the sea was impossible until then. But apparently, everyone was there. That was just the condition, where in the evening some warm air mass just arrived very comfortably. But otherwise, not really. So if you're relatively close to the waterline, the wind is very calm, very laminar, but because of that, thermals are very rare inside.
If
If you had to decide right now between coastal soaring or flying thermals, which would you lean towards? With every year,
as I get older, I'd lean more towards soaring because it's just more relaxed and much, much less stressful for me.
Why is that? You're saying that with every year as I get older, you get calmer, and you're no longer looking for that thrill of flying thermals? Or what is it that makes thermals and age not go so well together for you?
Yeah, I can't say if that's the case for everyone. But in my younger years, I challenged myself more often, and now I'm very consciously trying not to do that anymore. So really, even if I'm turning around—not at the turn, but at the mountain bonus—and I feel like it's not right. In places where I know there would have been no option to go down five years ago, I go down now. And even though I've never had an injury, I just think to myself that flying has remained such a beautiful hobby for me, and I want to have a good feeling when I land after a long flight. And with some flights, yeah, I just didn't care five years ago.
Maybe, or ten years ago, I'd say, okay, I know this won't be great and it's going to be really athletic. And I'd put up with that anyway. I just don't put up with those things anymore. Because then I'll just stroll down the mountain comfortably and that works just as well.
Besides walking down, you also like to hike up the mountains. So you're a hike-and-fly junkie. You also run a website with your wife, Hike2Fly4Fun, where you present your respective tours with pictures and sometimes videos and stuff like that. What are you looking for, or what are you guys looking for, in these kinds of hike-and-fly tours? For me, it's also
With the hike-and-fly tours, it's the same thing I already briefly mentioned, with the coasts, with the new sections. So I actually have a little to-do list, a hike to-do list, where I just have peaks at the top that I'd like to hike and fly. And the nice thing about the list is, it never ends, because with every new tour, I see a mountain somewhere on the horizon and I say, okay, wow, that looks great, I have to go up there, then I research it in the evening, it gets added to the bottom of the list, and somehow, yeah, I hope to be able to do a lot of the list, but it will never end. And there's also a bit of the new discovery. And if it's just the neighboring peak, then for me, that's completely something new.
And we've just got a few areas around here that we've already pretty much scouted out, let's say. But like I said, we're always expanding and seeing what else we can do. Yeah, the best part is, of course, when we do it together. Doing it with friends, yeah. Does that mean you never do a tour twice? In our area, of course, because if we say, for example, we only have two or three hours, then you do something nearby where you don't have to drive far and that you already know, where you know the conditions. But basically, if the day allows it, if we have the whole day, I actually always try to do a new tour. You
You said that with age, you're becoming calmer. But back then, you were a real competition type. In 2013, you even took part in the Red Bull X Alps. What are your most defining memories of that competition?
The most defining memories were actually that it's an insanely, insanely demanding preparation that I imposed on myself. So yeah, with the oxygen tent and things that I'm saying now in hindsight, like, was that necessary? Well, that stays in my memory. And then during the competition, it was insanely fascinating to be part of it. But I also realized after that one participation that this isn't my world. I mean, it's absolute professional sports and it's operated that way. And yeah, a lot of things happened there that I had experienced in smaller competitions before and that still exist, and that I simply already missed there.
But it was a great experience, obviously.
Speaking of smaller competitions. You've been co-organizing the Border Race series for ten years now. You're the organizer. How did that come about?
It actually came about out of necessity, because originally, the competition dates back to Heli Eichholz. So Heli Eichholz organized the very first competition. That was in 2008, I think. Yes, exactly, right. And then, together with his employer at the time, Petra Vorderrecker and Jochen took it over and turned it into a whole series, which Cross Alps used to be part of as well. And I was actually almost a regular starter from the very beginning, both for Cross Alps and Cross Border Race. So I don't have any wealth there. And then I said I don't actually want to miss the race in any year. Yes, and then Petra simply said she couldn't do it anymore, balancing it with her job and everything.
And she actually wants to, wants to stop. So then Willi Ludwig, who I do this with, went to her and said, "Petra, what do you think about us continuing this, about us taking it over?" And she was super happy and said, "Yes, I'd love that, if my baby can practically live on, and we do it." Yeah, and that's how we got involved, and that's how we've been doing it ever since.
What is the Border Race actually about? Maybe some listeners can't quite place this competition format. So, what does this competition consist of and what makes it special in your view?
Yeah, the rules in broad terms are like this: the competition lasts 33 hours. So it stretches out more or less over two days, and the task for the athletes is to head out in any direction—meaning the athlete decides for themselves where to fly, more or less. Like in all hikes, fly competitions, the only means of transport is on foot and, of course, the paraglider, so no support vehicles to ride with or no tracks, cable cars, and so on. And then you set the turnaround point at the spot where you as an athlete believe, okay, this is as far as I can go and still make it to the finish line, so within the 33 hours, because if I don't make it, then there are penalties.
And for me, the special thing—and I think that's where we differ from all other hike and fly competitions—is that every athlete can actually define their own turnaround point and their own goal. What's also special about the start is that you can start alongside X-Alps participants, Simon Oberaner, Friedrich Thomas, Gregl Maurer, so many well-known ones, Paul Guschlbauer has already been in the races, so you stand at the starting line together with them, and the beauty of it is that after two days, you reach the finish line just like Gregl Maurer, meaning I reached the finish line just like the world champion or like an X-Alps participant.
Well, the turning point will have been different for an X-Alps participant than for me trying it for the first time, but the feeling of reaching the finish line is simply something essential for me. And in no other hike-and-fly race can you reach the finish line as a rookie; that's just not possible. So, X-Alps is out of the question, but it's the same for all the others. You're somewhere on the route, you hit one turning point, you hit two, maybe you hit three, but you won't be at the finish line. And that's the fascination with Borderless for me. Anyone can reach the finish line. You just have to choose your turning point wisely for yourself, your own turning point at the limit.
That means everyone can celebrate their own success within their own means.
Exactly, yes. And it's actually risk-free. That is, and theoretically it's enough, to hike up a mountain, do a glide flight into the next valley, and then head back to the finish line, because 15 kilometers is the minimum distance you have to cover. And for someone who can hike up a mountain,
to manage. In the beginning, I think there were only two categories. The men's and the women's categories, I believe, as a distinction. Now you have a whole range of them. A rookie category, a tandem category, a masters category, and so on. Why have you kept building on that?
Requests have simply come in from the field of participants, and also a bit of the goal, the safety aspect, regarding our distance category, where we say, okay, you can only participate with B-gliders or a maximum of B-gliders. Because otherwise, you have to say fairly that with a B-glider, compared to a current high-performance glider, if it flies reasonably well, you simply have no chance or have to take an enormous risk to keep up. That's why we said, okay, that's important, for example. Then, yeah, the seniors—we don't even call it that, we say masters, that sounds much nicer than seniors. And yeah, then it happened, it applies from 50 onwards.
When I turned 50, I thought it would actually be cool if there was a Master category. Not entirely unpleasant, after all, since I still occasionally
...myself. With the Red Bull X-Alps we mentioned earlier, there's actually been an even stronger professionalization over the years among all the participants. Do you see those kinds of trends with the Border Race? I mean, are the people participating becoming more professional in their preparation over the years, or maybe not professional as such? They aren't pros competing there, but are people arriving better prepared with increasingly better, tailored equipment and everything else?
Yes, you can definitely notice that. Especially with this competition, I think there's an insane amount of work involved in the preparation, because you simply have to tailor the route yourself, or at least you should. That means it doesn't really make sense to just follow some random guy, because you have no idea what they're planning to do in the end. So preparation is key, and you can see it's becoming more professional, because ultimately, for many participants in the Border Race, at least the ones who really try to make it to the podium, the Red Bull X-Alps is still the goal. And I think that's a good recommendation, since I've stood on the podium at Border Race events several times.
You can see that with many athletes too. Yeah, for example, Simon Oberrauner and Friedrich Dahm—they also started out on the protests at Border Race and eventually moved over to X-Alps.
You've also participated in this for years. I don't even know, do you still take part now or are you just an organizer? I'm an organizer.
I support my wife a bit, who has already participated twice, Uli. But theoretically, for the first race in a month, it's back on the table that Uli and I will do the tandem together, provided she allows for the preparation on-site. If we have enough staff and Willi can take one of those tasks off my plate, then we will most likely be at the start again.
If you look at the rankings over the years, you were also quite successful in the Border Races. I saw that you were the overall winner twice. I think you were overall second several times. And in 2021 and 2022, you were also the overall winner with the tandem, together with your wife. How well does it actually work to do Hike and Fly with a tandem? And what's special about it? What do you have to watch out for to function as a pair in some way?
Yeah, that's...
it has worked out very well for us. And that's of course a huge advantage in tandem flying, especially when it's not the official launch sites, because you know each other well. Especially starts in high-alpine terrain, maybe somewhere on a glacier. It's incredibly important that I know I can rely on my co-pilot. That I know if I say it's time to run, then he runs and doesn't stop. So that's incredibly important. And I'm very, very sure about what works and what doesn't work. What I wouldn't do now with a passenger, for example, whom I don't know, I definitely wouldn't do,
you can certainly do that. Yes, and in the air, there's also a clear division of tasks and also briefings every now and then before a crossing. Okay, do we make the turn there? Do we keep flying? What do you think? And you coordinate. To the point where Uli takes over the glider once during crossings. So we usually have the brake handles slightly extended. That means I have another brake handle, about 30 cm lower, which I can hand over to Uli. And that way, I can just have something to eat during crossings, or maybe focus on something else for a few minutes. So that works very well.
Do you plan the routes you fly and hike completely differently when you're out with the tandem?
So, in terms of distance, not really. I mean, of course I used to fly solo routes back in the day. In truth, it's not really any different with the tandem. I find that cross-country flying with the tandem is, for me, much nicer than solo because the whole thing feels much more dampened. And in truth, the performance of a tandem isn't bad at all. I can't compare it to some two-liner or a C-glider, but with a High-B glider on ridge crossings, I can handle the speed and the arrival altitude and so on relatively easily. That means you can fly along quite well, and there's quite a bit possible with the tandem.
But with solo, you can probably start from much smaller, steeper areas, and you might also be able to piece together landing spots in smaller areas more riskily with solo than what's possible with the tandem. So, do you plan differently in that regard, or do you say, no, my skills are so good that everywhere I can start with solo, I can also start with the tandem?
Yeah, you might have to distinguish between different types of routes here. Because when it comes to cross-country flying, it's usually not intended as a hike and fly; we do cross-country routes. That's rather the exception. That's more like when we're out for a few days with a tent using the tandem. But otherwise, our launch sites for cross-country flying, for example, our Schöckl, our local mountain, are suitable, or then at the border down below—the classic starting points for long distances, for long triangles. And we know those launch sites, and they're actually all unproblematic, unproblematic for tandem. If it really comes down to a hike and fly once in a while, then it's very clear: either they are launch sites where I've already started and landed solo, where I select them based on those criteria, or I simply plan a much larger safety margin, both in terms of the launch site—so no rock-strewn launch sites, no abrupt drops, where a simple fall is possible.
And the same goes for the landing. I mean, when it comes to landing with a tandem in high-alpine terrain, a meadow is almost a must for me. I really dislike landing on rocky, inhospitable terrain with a tandem. So, if it can be avoided somehow, I definitely avoid it.
Let's change the subject again. You do another form of tandem with your wife, surrounding paragliding. You have a joint project with her called ParaFinder.at, with another partner involved. What is it about?
It actually came about out of necessity or out of a passion of mine. I just love looking at equipment. What's new on the market? Above all, I'm always looking for something, whether it's for a specific part—it doesn't have to be just what flies, it could be headlamps or something else—to see where it's available. Is there something that's maybe a few grams lighter? So, that's a bit of a quirk of mine. And yeah, a few years ago, while sitting on the couch in the winter comparing paragliders, I just saw how tedious it is to compare things like spans, aspect ratios, and weights. Being able to filter through that to figure out how to get to my desired object, or how to find the part that's best.
And I thought, it would be nice if you could really compare things like aspect ratio, glider weight, and so on with just a few mouse clicks. And that's how our Parafinder was born. Together with Uli and Chris Gross, who has the software know-how. We created a platform where all the current models—and not just the current ones, but also previous models and even further back—are simply inside. And where you can compare gliders against each other in a very uncomplicated way. But not just compare them, but really pick one out, like saying, okay, I'm looking for a glider for Hike & Fly.
It should be a C-class glider at most and weigh a maximum of 3.5 kilos. Tell me, what's on the market? And all of that for my body weight. Yes, and then you can narrow down the selection, or rather the displayed models, very nicely, and you can compare them perfectly and find a suitable one relatively quickly.
model model. That means Parafinder is basically a huge equipment database with a good filtering function, something like that.
Yeah, exactly. So I can filter classically, like on the common portals of course, where I set all the possible filters. But I can also, that is, trust our know-how, where I say, okay, show me an Acro glider or just show me all the Flare gliders, and then we select for the user what's available on the market.
You've described your initial motivation a bit, but that's something small you do for yourself. Now you've created a huge database. All that data has to get in there first. So someone has to type it all in or whatever, and that's probably an incredible amount of work involved. Now, as far as I can see from the outside, you aren't making any money from it. So what's the motivation to put so much time into it?
Yes, that's right. We don't make any money. Of course, at some point, there would be a desire to at least cover the running costs. But the motivation for the three of us was really, well, we're all enthusiastic pilots. We were all convinced by the idea from the very beginning. That it would work, that it would be well-received. And the motivation simply comes from nice emails from users who might ask something or just say, that's cool and that's great. But also with tips where they say, I would categorize that glider differently. We have internal para-finders, so a classification in the individual classes as well, where we then just look at it and readjust it again.
So that's our motivation. How do you get all the data? Partly from the manufacturers, but very often just classically from the homepage when the glider comes out. So we already have our own algorithm where we actually scour all the portals at least every one to two weeks. Among other things—and you're involved in that—what's new in the glider market? And if it says there, for example, that the QR2 from PGD is new on the market, then it's on our to-do list and Uli takes over. She enters all the data into our database. Yes, then there's a new update from Chris and the gliders are in. So I think we are very, very complete and very, very close to real-time.
So it's not a few months later that a glider is in there, but as soon as it's on the market, if there is data, then it's in our system. Now you have
you recently did a big update and basically added a kind of used marketplace database on top of that as well. How does that work? Yes,
We already had a used database at the beginning, so at the start, where our users can list gliders for free. So the difference compared to another used database is that we already know all the data about the glider in the background. That means if you want to sell a glider now, let's say it's a Novamento 4, it always bothered me with the listings—it says Novamento, flown little, and the price is so and so much. Yeah, as a buyer, I can't really do anything with that. There are at least three questions there, because I want to know this, that wants to know that, and this wants to know that. It's different with us. With us, the user just says, "I have a Novamento 4, it's in the cellar, and I don't really need it anymore."
And he enters Novamento 4 now, and we automatically pull in all the data from our database. That means we have a complete glider in there, and the person who wants to buy it knows immediately about the glider—what weight range, how heavy, what the glide ratio is. And the customer or the seller then basically only enters their desired price. For the desired price, we automatically show where it's displayed whether it's a good price, a fair price, or if it's cheap. So also for the seller. We'll see where his price stands. Is it realistic? Is it market-appropriate? Yes, and he publishes his glider. And the new thing now, we've tried to simply take the models from other existing paraglider exchanges...
...to display according to our model. That means you can see right away in the listings—if I enter, say, "we're looking for any glider"—that for a specific glider model, it's usually the case that I can almost pick out the color because I already have so many in there. This is really a huge gain. And you can also see where it's coming from, whether it's from Quelle or from THV. And then I have the complete glider data along with the text the seller wrote. But if I want to contact the seller, I naturally get to the U-listing as linked. Of course, you don't want to change that in any way, and you can get in touch with the seller there.
And we've integrated three marketplaces now, but we could theoretically add many, many more marketplaces with relatively little effort, including from abroad, but a lot more of that is still to come.
How does that work technically? So your system, PowerFinder, sort of scans the DHV used market too? And when a new ad comes in, does your PowerFinder automatically read it, take over the data that's there—if it says Mentor 4S or something like that, then it goes into your database accordingly? And then I can see, okay, I'm looking for a Mentor 4 or whatever, and then this ad shows up on your site. And if I say, I'd like to have more info on that, I'll then basically be linked back to the DHV used market.
Exactly, you get redirected there. So the goal was simply to provide the user with the convenience of not having to scour three, four, or five different marketplaces to see if my desired glider is being offered somewhere; instead, no matter where it's listed, it's displayed with us automatically. So theoretically, it wouldn't matter if I list it in the DHV forum or directly with us—the advantage for a user looking for a glider, if it's listed with us, is of course that the seller's contact details are already provided right there with us. So you'd save yourself that one extra link to the original listing, but you get a great overview of the complete dataset for the glider, which you obviously don't have in the original listing.
It just says Nova Mentor 4 again and the price. And maybe a few sentences from the seller.
Does your system scan the others in a way that it immediately recognizes, oh, the glider has been taken out of the original DHV or will have database and so on, it's sold now, so that it's immediately deleted on your end as well? Or is it possible that ads that were read once are still in your system, even though they've been gone for a long time?
No, it hasn't been that way for a long time. I mean, it's read out daily. You'd have to ask Christian. He's the software genius behind it. But it's read out at least twice a day. So, even before Parafinder, the AI wasn't doing the heavy lifting. We're talking hundreds of listings per day, of course. So, that would actually—well, since we're still basically running everything as a hobby, we simply don't have the time to check every glider, but a very sophisticated AI actually does that now. And I believe we're now at 98 percent of the listings being fully automatically recognized and taken over.
So only two percent of the listings still have to be checked manually and maybe corrected.
What about other equipment? For example, what about harnesses? What about rescues?
We're currently working on that. So that's going to be the next very, very big update. Maybe we'll even manage to launch both together. So first the equipment database and paraglider. There are still some challenges there where we're currently tinkering with how to do it. For example, what if someone lists a complete set? Where will that be displayed? Will it be shown under the gliders? Will it be shown under the rescue systems? Will it be shown under the harness, or as a set, or additionally as a set? So that's one of the things we're currently working on solving. But otherwise, there will be an equipment database. And I think that could turn out to be really, really cool.
Because comparing gliders is one thing. There are older sites that were done really well but aren't maintained anymore, where you can at least still compare older paraglider models and have data. I don't think it's in the same form as how we're doing it, but places like that exist. But as far as harnesses are concerned, I don't think there's anything at all. And I think that could be really cool, if I say, okay, either I do a normal filter search across all harnesses and just limit it to what I want. Or I just say, okay, Parafinder, find all Bot harnesses under 3.4 kilos for me that have an inflatable protector as a protector and have a certification.
All at once. I think that would be a huge help for some people who are looking for
Equipment. But that gets really demanding when I imagine it—okay, if you take the latest harnesses, the data is sometimes available on the websites accordingly. But especially in the harness market, there are many where you'd say, I can still sell and fly a five-year-old harness. And they're still good and have been developed, maybe slightly further developed, but the old ones still work just as well. But this data is often no longer directly available online. How do you plan to handle that? Do you contact the manufacturers?
If it's really important or manufacturers that are well-represented in the market, we contact the manufacturers directly. By now, that works quite well because the manufacturers know our site too and, I believe, aren't unhappy about their products being placed there. Although we don't have any say in whether they are in there or not. It's just important that we are complete and comprehensive. That's how we'll get there. But with the harnesses, it's going to be like this, of course. The new devices are important, that they are in there, because that's what the customer can buy. But the harness database maintenance has been going on since the beginning, for two years now. So I actually already have parts of the second generation of harnesses in the database, but they aren't useful to me yet.
That means, now the new devices are coming. What do I know? Now for X-Arps the new harnesses, the lighter harnesses, what do I know. Or new manufacturers like Bogdanfly and so on with currently the Pizzarace and the X-Race, which we already have in there. But also the older ones. And for sales, you're of course right. We have a problem there that we don't have every data set for older harnesses. But there is still, of course, the possibility that the seller says, okay, at least he knows that. I have a boat harness. As a protector, I have foam and so on. Then there's at least the second-hand market also for the older models, where we might not have a complete data set. So there we're talking about models that are older than four, five, six, seven years.
Then at least we have this filtering option where I can say, okay, show me all the wing harnesses. So we'll always have that. The question then is how many models and items there are, and whether there's even a necessity to have more precise datasets for older ones. Otherwise, we'd also be hesitant to reach out to the manufacturers to see if we can still get the complete datasets for old harnesses, if it's necessary.
I always see or think to myself that this is a lot of effort. How could you ever make money from something like that? Or is that not even the end goal?
To
Beginning? Yes. No, well, the goal—it's like with almost everything I do, it works best for me when the goal isn't a "must" at the beginning, meaning you have to do it now, but rather if it comes from me that I'm doing it. And if I'm convinced that it's a great thing, then the earning part—or can you actually earn something with it—comes relatively far down the line. Yes, and it's still relatively far down the line. Of course, it would be nice. But what we definitely don't want, and we all completely agree on that, all three of us—Chris, Uli, and I—the Joffin user, it should definitely remain free. Of course, it would be nice if we could somehow get a small amount from the manufacturers for the fact that the database exists, for the fact that comparisons are made, and so on.
But we don't have a solution for that yet either. But as I said, that's not a problem. It's a priority because for us, there is no
Priority is. When you look at all of this, you organize the Border Races, you put in a lot of work with your colleagues on this Parafinder and stuff like that. What is the drive for you, to be so strongly involved in the paraglider scene right now? You could just go flying for yourself. So what drives you to say, I want to somehow give something back to the others, give something back, whatever?
Yeah.
That's probably why I've been flying for 36 years, why I enjoy flying every day, and why I still have new projects and ideas—because I just love doing it and because I enjoy sharing it and giving something back to others.
What are your, or do you have any new projects in the pipeline for yourself yet?
New projects? Well, I'm a bit like the girl who came to the Virgin. At the Aeroclub, I was honored to be appointed as the person responsible for all matters regarding Hike & Fly. And a new project has now emerged, which involves not just the competition scene, but what I've been seeing lately, both personally and in conversations with other pilots, it's becoming more about larger projects. Larger points of friction regarding Hike & Fly. So, keywords like property owners, hunting lessees, and various interest groups who aren't necessarily happy when pilots start up somehow.
And so, we've started an initiative at the Aeroclub to think about flight areas, Hike & Fly areas—not officially, but to consider how we can protect them and how we can do that together with all the interest groups, like the hunting associations, the tourism board, and so on. And to simply create lighthouse projects in certain areas that could then maybe be copy-pasted into other areas if there are problems. Often, the problems are really self-inflicted. We see that in some places, in some corners; often, it really helps to have an explanatory conversation with the landowner, and then they see, "Aha, okay, it was actually about a minor detail."
If I take that into account, everything is fine. From my perspective, that includes a Hike & Fly code. That is to say, just because we have the privilege of actually being allowed to fly almost everywhere, doesn't mean you should, I don't know, communicate that to the property owners and so on; it only works if you do it together. And I believe that's important, and I see that as a major task for this initiative. So, there are several enthusiastic Hike & Fly pilots involved who are participating. And yes, that is our—I'm currently at that point right now.
and new to this. Well, the paragliding scene, or many paragliders, I'd say, that is,
by nature, many of them are very individualistic. They're like, I do my own thing, I go up the mountain when I want to go up that mountain. And something like a code, where you collectively adhere to certain things, it might not be that easy to get them all on board with that. How do you want to do that? I mean, how is a code supposed to work so that people actually say, I'm putting that on my flag?
We have there
Now, yeah. So we already have a rough framework with about ten rules of conduct in there, which will of course be fleshed out. But there's nothing in there that would make a normal person feel completely alienated, like, "Whoa, I can't do this, I can't relate to this." It's about camping. It's about trash. It's about how I prepare. It's about safety issues. It's about what I do if I encounter a landowner, how I approach them? But of course, it also includes the corresponding background knowledge. That means, what is basically allowed? What are you allowed to do? What are you not allowed to do? Because there are very big differences between Germany and Austria in that regard.
So, basically, in our country, paragliding is allowed everywhere with the property owner's consent. In your country, it's basically forbidden everywhere except at official launch sites. So, very roughly speaking. But of course, there are still several legal aspects that aren't clear. And in the code, it says, well, if there's a hunting reserve or a nature reserve, that you simply respect that. So, all the things where you, as a responsible pilot doing this, would say, "Yeah, that actually makes perfect sense." We don't actually want to forbid anything; we want this beautiful style of paragliding, of hike and fly, to be possible for many, many years to come and for us to simply be accepted.
In our case, for example, the Alpine Club is a good example. From my point of view, they've had similar problems. And not with hiking—the right of way there is relatively clearly defined, who can do what and when, and which paths are to be used. But new sports, like mountain biking—specifically the addition of e-bikes—or ski touring, were actually a huge challenge for the Alpine Club. Because those are also athletes who belong to the Alpine Club, but they were somehow being left out. And the Alpine Club solved that relatively well. Also with similar things, a code of conduct: what should I do, what am I not allowed to do.
And that is now, at least in Austria, as far as I can tell, better regulated regarding ski touring and also mountain biking, at least in some parts. And what doesn't work in my view is saying, okay, you're not allowed to start anywhere anymore. And if you ask, why can't I start up there? There are 50 hikers on that huge meadow on a beautiful day. Why can't I start there? Because that's just how it is. Well, from my perspective, that's obviously unacceptable. So there have to be conversations. And the sooner those conversations happen, the less these fronts will harden and the sooner we'll find solutions that everyone can live with. And that would actually be the goal.
And unfortunately, of course, if some people just ignore everything and say, "I don't care at all, I'm doing whatever I want anyway," then everyone will eventually feel the consequences as more and more things get banned.
Alright. Then let's hope that initiatives like a Hike-and-Fly Code find broad acceptance in the scene. That people actually take the rules or recommendations contained in it into account. It's great that you're working on something like this, collaborating on it, and pushing it forward. Tommy, overall, it's interesting where you roam, both in terms of world history or the world regions where you go flying, but also thematically, what you fly with and how much you give back to the paragliding scene as a whole. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for all your commitment. Thanks Lucian, to you too. Take care.
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