162. Der Rennleiter - Ferdinand Vogel

When I became Race Director for the first time and got the list of who had applied, I took the time to look up how many followers they have, what their reach is, whether the followers are mostly in the paraglider scene, how many social media channels they're on, and I prepared all of that because I assumed it was quite relevant. But no one ever looked at it. So, once we have the final list, of course, Red Bull can take another look and say, "Hey, we'd actually prefer to have this applicant in," or something like that. We had that this time too, where I just said, "Well, he's not safety-conscious enough for the race," and there was no discussion and that was that.

Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.

Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.

Today with... Ferdinand Vogel. And I am... Lucian Haas.

The Red Bull X-Alps is the most high-profile competition in paragliding. This year, in 2025, the athletes have to complete a 1,283-kilometer course across the Alps via hike and fly. The route has never been this long before. To ensure everything is regulated during the race, or rather, follows the rules, there is a Race Director. Since the 2023 edition of Red Bull X-Alps... his name is Ferdinand Vogel. But what exactly does a Race Director do? The 34-year-old explains this in this episode 162 of Podz-Glidz. It quickly becomes clear in the conversation that the race director's role has more facets than one might think.

That starts long before the actual race begins. From the selection of the athletes, through safety checks of the route, the definition of no-fly zones, all the way to technical specifications for the length of the harness. The Race Director has a significant say in everything. Ferdinand chats behind the scenes in the podcast and gives unusually deep insights into the inner workings of the Red Bull X-Alps. Since you're listening to the podcast, why not become a supporter of Podz-Glidz? It's very easy to do, and you can find out how on the support page of the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz.

Ferdi… You were recently at the Paragliding World Cup in Algozonalis in Spain. And there was a task where you flew all the way to the beach. That was the goal. What is it like, flying to the beach in a race?

Yeah, it was a sick feeling. Well, the final flight was pretty impressive. We took off with a glide ratio of 1 to 15, and everyone said beforehand that there was nothing to land on, no more thermals toward the sea, it would just stay high. And everyone was like, beforehand already, yeah, we'll just barely clear the mountain ridge and then somehow sneak into the goal. And the atmosphere during the final flight was accordingly intense. A few people just took the risk and went for it. A few others circled in that weak lift—that was already the sea air. That was exciting. And yeah, ultimately almost everyone made it into the goal. I don't think anyone landed somewhere out there; everyone landed on the beach. For many, many, and also for me, it was one of the most impressive tasks we've had so far. Is that

impressive that you land at the sea? Is that somehow something special?

A high? Yeah, in a way, yes. I mean this gliding, after the stress was gone, then just briefly over the sea. I didn't get quite as high, didn't have quite as much fun. But yeah, it was impressive. Also the panorama, especially over on the other side, you could really see Africa. It was kind of cool, arriving at the sea after 100 kilometers. Now, starting shortly.

the Red Bull X Alps, and you're the Race Director there. And in the past, the X Alps always landed on the beach, by the sea, in Monaco.

Ah, yeah. You see?

after those experiences of yours in Spain, that some people are mourning that Monaco goal?

Yes, definitely. And it's still very much in people's heads. Even athletes who have experienced the last few editions where it no longer goes to the sea, they still always say, "Yeah, X Alps from Monaco" or "from Salzburg to Monaco," and yeah, it's just ingrained like that, it's true.

If you were the Race Director now and had the influence to maybe route it differently again at some point and lead it all the way to the Mediterranean, would you say, based on your experiences, that it's actually a must?

It would be wonderful, definitely. But there are many, many components that have to be taken into account. What people always like to underestimate, even in France, is that there are simply regulations. And not just a few of them. Especially towards the South of France, there are quite a few nature reserves that make flying pretty difficult. And I can remember that in the last editions, where it still went down to Monaco, one or two French people complained because they said, I'm not allowed in there, otherwise the whole French community will notice and the other athletes just blasted through there and flew right through. And that has already changed; with the X-Alps, we now have to pay very, very close attention to all these nature conservation regulations.

So, the flight path used to consist of the main large airspaces that the athletes received. We have these forbidden areas in the X-Alps. And now, there are—I don't know, I haven't counted them, but I'd say well over 400 individual zones. In the space, there are small ones everywhere. Switzerland is also very extreme. There are hunting protection zones everywhere. You're not allowed to take off or land there. There are also huge areas in Italy, which most people aren't even aware of, even in the middle of the Dolomites. So people fly there freely and everything. But purely officially, according to what you can read in an AIP, there are areas where flying suddenly becomes really critical and difficult.

And my job is to get special permits in many of these areas or somehow find loopholes so that we manage to do it without compromising nature conservation, but also without compromising the race. And especially towards Southern France, that's a big problem, to get back to Monaco again. And the other thing is, it's a different atmosphere. I mean, I was allowed to do this now—the last edition was my first time as Race Director. And I was also there in 2017 with Pal Takac as a supporter myself, as an official supporter. He's also going all the way to Monaco.

...got there, right?

No, unfortunately we didn't quite make it. We had a 48-hour penalty and were sitting around in Lucano. But we still drove straight to Monaco. And the ceremony and everything was there too. But it was a different feeling because no one was there. There was really almost no one. Almost no other paraglider. There were a few typical Monaco tourists there. But they looked at us pretty weirdly because they were all rather fancy. And we were totally exhausted. Our facial features were sagging from all the effort. Totally tired. You basically arrive there as half-sweaty people and then want to party. And that didn't really fit together very well. And if I compare that now to what was going on in Zell am See.

And that's also with participants who weren't exactly at the front. But that finish line, that was something impressive. So, that stands in contrast to some other things. And I think the feeling remains, though, that you've arrived somewhere, that you've made it across the X-Alps, when you arrive where the goal is. And this tour, this alpine crossing in this case, is simply there multiple times.

I want to talk to you. Because today we're going to talk a bit about your role as Race Director. But before that, first explain to me, how do you even do that? Or rather, how did you become that?

Yeah, well, I don't know for sure. But somehow the old Race Director approached me and just asked if I could imagine doing it. That was Christoph Weber, who did it for years. Yeah, exactly. And Christoph said at some point that it was becoming a bit too much stress for him and he wanted something a bit more relaxed. With the kids at home and new professional things in the works, he just said he needs a break. He'd done it long enough, but it's hard to hand over. And he only wanted to hand it over to good hands, so to speak. I said, I don't even know what's actually coming my way. So we met and talked on the phone several times. And eventually, I ended up at Zoom Productions,

that's the company behind the X-Alps. So it's not Red Bull directly. Red Bull is just the main sponsor. And yeah, then it was a completely normal job interview. And I think my strengths were simply that through the Deutsche Liga work and the Newcomer Challenge, Junior Challenge, I already had quite a bit of experience with paragliding competitions. Plus, just before that, I wanted to participate in the X-Alps myself. That means I was already somewhat involved. And I've been paragliding myself for over 20 years now and have seen many editions as a spectator, and also have insights from looking into the Paragliding Forum or the THV Forum. And I know a huge number of the athletes personally.

and because of that, I think I have a very good insight into what the scene needs, what the athletes need, and what is actually possible from an aviation law perspective. So my background as a flight instructor comes into play there, with all the laws that exist, at least on the Austrian and German side for now. But I was also really interested back then in how it works in Italy, for example. And yeah, I'm also well-versed in France and Switzerland now, but for those, I just took the respective associations into account.

Two years ago was your debut as Race Director. A lot was new, certainly. Now, in a way, Episode 2 is coming up for you. Are you approaching this race with completely different people? With different feelings?

Yes, but last time it was really like a black box. What was coming my way? Sure, there was a lot of preparation work involved, but it's not all on me. There's a huge team behind it. There are two people who are employed full-time and do two years of preparation, just that. And during the race, it's a team of over 40 people. All of that has to be coordinated. There are legal requirements and, and, and. And getting through all that isn't something where someone can just sit down with you and say, "Come on, let's go through this now." You don't get a feel for what you have to do and what everyone else has to do. It was more like a rough overview and then just thrown into the deep end.

What is the biggest thing you're looking forward to when you look ahead to the race?

To experience it firsthand. I mean, last time it was exciting because I felt like I wanted to participate myself, but I wasn't allowed to. And yet, I was somehow there with the athletes. And as close as I'd never been before. Especially with several athletes. Sure, with PAL, I was fully involved, but as part of a team. And I only met other teams on the sidelines. But this time, my job was to keep an eye on all the teams. And I also just jogged along with the athletes for a while when they were on the ground. Especially in the evening, after they'd basically done their last sunset flight and packed everything up. Then they usually got a little something to eat for the way.

Then they don't run off from me. And then I could keep up and just jog alongside them and ask how their day was, what kind of problems they had in the team. And because of that, you suddenly get different insights. I found it exciting,

that

I was suddenly the race director and no longer, so to speak, the buddy of the other athletes. And I noticed that right at the beginning. At first, they were very reserved about telling me anything. I mean, last time it was super wet, unstable, deep base, and there were constant overdevelopments in the afternoon. They had already experienced things they didn't want to tell me about. Suddenly, everything was white around them from all the graupel. So there was no more green meadow or anything like that. They usually only told me about that two days later. Like, "Well, it won't be that bad anymore by then." Or there was this one situation where Bernie from Burn M App called me. He called me and said, "Whoa, he's there and the athlete has crashed."

Look at that, he crashed. For sure, he saw it on the live tracking. And then, of course, there's panic in that moment, right? And you have to see where he is, how did that happen? And call him immediately or something. And then he got on the phone and said, "Well, well, I just landed perfectly, the wind is too strong, I need to collect a few more stones, then I'll be heavier, then it'll be fine."

And with stories like that, you realize, yeah, it really is the X-Hives, everything is extreme. And I introduced the yellow card last time,

to issue penalties for being too aggressive,

...unsafe behavior that I can't check or for which I don't have video evidence. And the idea mainly came from the cloud flying story, because finding a hard line for cloud flying is always a total pain. Sure, we all actually have to keep a lot of distance from the clouds, but we all know how it usually goes. And in the past, there were never really any penalties for cloud flying. And in cross-country flying, it's a regular problem that people just turn around, turn into the cloud to be able to cross the valley better. And the same thing happened in a row at the X-Hives, at least that's what's being rumored. And I just wanted to say, people, that's not allowed.

We are role models for the entire scene, and if you do it, everyone else will do it too. And then at some point, paragliding won't exist in the form we have it right now. And then there's this reversal where the others say, "Yeah, but if he's doing it, I have to do it too, otherwise it's unfair." So it was just, hey, if I see something conspicuous in the live feed, you're responsible for proving to me that you weren't in the cloud. If you can't do that, you get a yellow card. And a yellow card just means you have a yellow card, but no penalty. But if you collect yellow cards, at some point they lead to penalties. And last time, it was still hard for me to hand out yellow cards. And there weren't that many yellow cards issued at all. So there were a few, actually, because of landings, because of all sorts of stuff.

But ultimately, we've now decided that there's only one yellow card without anything happening. And with the second yellow card, something does happen now, a small penalty. And with the red card, after there have been two yellow cards, we then have to consider on a case-by-case basis, based on what the yellow cards were, how large the penalty will be. But it can also lead to disqualification.

Is this whole penalty thing—yellow cards, red cards, and all that—the stupidest or most unpleasant part for you as Race Director? At least during the race? Yes,

definitely. I really don't like it. I was also on the jury at the World Cup. It was about cloud flight again there. The whole pack had been sucked in. And, well, you know the people. That's another thing. So you're a bit constrained somehow. At the World Cup, I was actually a participant myself. So, an even more difficult situation. I think most people who know me know that I try to look at it very rationally and just put the facts on the table. And you don't really want to give anyone penalties. And last time, for example, the race was incredibly fast. They had never moved that fast before. It was certainly due to the low base, and they could just build themselves back up from deep down in a straight flight and were correspondingly super fast.

And the penalties that were issued for airspace violations are normally always 48 hours.

That didn't happen last time. I mean, there were violations, but not 48 hours, because we just said that after 48 hours, the race is over. And accordingly, we reduced those unofficial 48 hours in the Race Committee—they aren't written down anywhere—and gave two new levels. So for Patrick von Kennel in Locarno, for example, because the border is so narrow—the border is there, so the Locarno TMA is just a strip about 100 meters wide, which is quite long. And he just accidentally flew in briefly, noticed it, turned around, and flew around the outside. And we said, okay, yeah, it used to be that if one track point is inside, that's it, game over.

There's the 48-hour rule. And we just said, okay, there were airspace violations, they just flew straight through and didn't notice anything. And last time, I think they got 12 hours and the others got 6 hours or something. And last time, 6 hours was already pretty harsh.

Let's go over your tasks as Race Director, so to give us a bit of an understanding. You're not only involved during the race, but as far as I know, there's already a lot of work involved beforehand. Yes. And what falls, so to speak, under your jurisdiction? I mean, what do you have to do as Race Director, or where are you perhaps the deciding factor or where is your role crucial?

So, in the race committee, where the owner of Zoom Productions is also involved,

All the decisions there are made as a team decision. So there's actually no decision I make alone. Everyone flies paragliders. So even the Safety Director, everyone has a bit of paraglider experience. For one or another, it's been a while. But Ulrich Grill, for example, used to fly those kite proximity races and stuff. So he was a wild dog too. And accordingly, the know-how is actually there for everyone. And yet, for my task, I see it clearly now, I am the advisor regarding paraglider-specific matters. And specifically, current paraglider-specific matters.

And I use and inquire about my connections that I currently have in the scene. And that's where it actually starts, namely in the athlete selection, figuring out who should become a Red Bull X-Alps athlete. It's not easy at all. And we always make a huge process out of it. And the process has become insanely more complex just from last time to this time. I'd say it's also because the athletes are getting better. So the athletes are getting better. And the level is getting closer together, so to speak. And that's why it's getting harder to choose who is really the best.

And then there's always the running and the flying. And of course, all the safety aspects. We pay attention to the safety aspects first and foremost. In that regard, where it's possible to do it, we have clear rules. How much flight experience does the person need? How long should they have been flying? Which gliders do they regularly use? Because it simply makes a difference whether someone is just starting out on a C-glider and has only ever flown B-gliders before, or if people are also flying CCC-gliders and would theoretically fly something a bit more conservative at the X-Alps. That really makes a difference. The agro-skills—how well can they fly aerobatic maneuvers? Everyone quickly claims they can fly SAT-Heli.

And what I do is, nowadays almost every one of these athletes has an Instagram account, and I just look at how well they take off and how well they land. Because you can see extreme differences there too. I'd say at the World Cup, over half of them can't take off or land. And among the people who apply, there are so many who can't take off and land. And those are simply the most critical moments with the X-Alps. You really watch that...

...right? Yeah. So you go on their Instagram accounts and see if there are any start videos of them on there? And then you watch something and say, oh my god, how is he jumping into his glider like that? That looks pretty uncontrolled. I mean, I know...

no. Yeah, exactly. And if I get the feeling that something isn't quite right 100 percent, then I try to keep paying attention and also look at the people's stories just to get a better feel for it. And many people post something about starts and landings, and you can see a lot there. With the maneuvers, you often can't see it at all because the perspective usually doesn't fit. And often, the fuck-ups are only posted, and you don't really learn anything from that, do you? And that happens sometimes. So it's not bad if something like that pops up. But yeah. And if someone has fallen four times in the last three or four years, then that's also a sign—oh, maybe he doesn't quite have his risk management under control. And these points, because flying is just once again much

safety-related is more important than the athletic side; those become very, very important. And I've significantly restructured the questionnaire, the application form, this time. Last time, I thought, no, no, I'd better leave it as it was. But now we've restructured it well to get the questions specifically into these safety directions, to get feedback there as well. And of course, every athlete who applies will sugarcoat it. But even so, you get a good feeling.

What is an example of a safety-relevant question? I mean, what would I have to do if I want to apply? What is one of the key questions where you say, "From this, I can tell if Lucian is technically suitable for this or not?"

I wouldn't say it's just one question. It's the interplay of all the questions. But if someone writes that they've already flown two stalls during SIV training, alarm bells start ringing for me because, well, we all know the videos of them getting completely destroyed by a gust of wind somewhere in the lee or something like that. And I just want people to have their glider under control, which also means having it under control during a stall.

So, how much stall experience do they have? And I also go into the individual maneuvers sometimes and want more knowledge about those maneuvers. So if someone flies heli-to-heli, that means something different than if they've done a bubblecopter once. But I'm also interested in the airtime. For example, how many hours did they spend in the air last year? That's also an important factor; I always do that during the cross-country flight seminars when I'm selecting people. If I want to take them along so that it's a homogeneous group, I ask the people how many hours you spent under the glider last year? And maybe how many in total, or on average over the last few years? Just to get a feel for it. And that's not about take-offs and landings; when it comes to cross-country flight and the selection for the X-Alps, it's really about seeing how much practical experience they've gathered in the last few months.

So, you have 34 or 35 athletes starting this year, I think? Yeah, that will probably change a bit again, unfortunately. Yeah, okay. But those are the ones you co-selected. How many would you say, if we can put a number on it, how many did you have to filter out who you felt actually had a chance based on the skills they have?

Yes, well, there are countries where it's really easy. And then there's also the point where you have to say, we only have 35 spots. Actually, it's 30 spots plus five wildcards, so to speak, that we then award additionally. At least that's how it works internally. And yes, in some countries it's super difficult because you can't just take, for example, French people, or you can't take ten French people. Why not?

Do you have country quotas where it says, for example, France gets five spots, Austria gets four, Germany gets four, and so on?

We

we have, we have the idea that it should be an international competition. And many factors come into play. Interestingly, when I became Race Director for the first time and got the list of who applied, I took the trouble to look up how many followers they have. What's their reach? Are the followers mostly in the glider scene? How many social media channels are they on? And I prepared all of that because I assumed it was quite relevant. No one ever looked at it. I found that totally fascinating. So when we have the final list, of course, Red Bull will also take another look and can say, hey, we'd actually prefer to have the applicant with us or something, if it's some Red Bull athlete from, I don't know, which country.

And that's what happened this time too, where I just said, well, he's not safety-compliant for the race, and there was no discussion and then it was settled. So the safety criteria are much, much higher than any social media reach. Nevertheless, it has to remain an international race. For example, at the World Cup, half were only French. And sure, it's still an international race, but you just have to differentiate somewhere. And it's hard to say, hey, this is our limit now. We ended up adding to it anyway and took someone else along. So the team is bigger than ever, basically.

But it's hard to turn people down and instead take someone from another country who is theoretically much slower based on the data and will probably produce a worse result.

But then, to be fair to Red Bull, you also have to go to market with a country quota, because they say that's a market too, and they want someone from there as well, roughly speaking. So, marketing plays a role there.

Yeah, well, somewhere, sure, that's a huge effort. I just mentioned how many employees there are, right? You can calculate the employee costs alone, because it's not just two weeks of racing, but there's also a preparation week and then a bit of cleanup afterwards and so on. And also the live tracking—what the live tracking costs in terms of money, you can't even imagine. So, the fact that the map display, that the maps are allowed to be there, is already insane. The click numbers that happen there, you can't imagine that either when I heard it for the first time and then compared it. I just wanted to compare what happens on a good cross-country flight day at XContest on the live map or at Flymaster or something. Yeah, for me, that was like, wow, okay, that's just another dimension.

There are many, many more people who aren't in the scene watching this. Is it a factor of 10, 100, or 1,000? I don't have the exact figures handy right now, I never remember that kind of stuff, but it was simply way over a factor of 10. I think it was more like a factor of 100 or something. So, it was already enormous. Even with Flymaster and XContest, the numbers are impressive on good days regarding how many people are watching the live tracking. I see it myself every now and then. You can see it on the XT-Track, how many people are following you right now. And when the number eventually hits three digits, you think, what? Who has that much time to watch? But yeah, live tracking, the Red Bull League lives off that. And that's why it's so important.

A lot of that goes into the programming. And during the race, they listen to the feedback at the beginning. So the programmers are in the forums where everything is discussed. And if something isn't working a hundred percent, they usually fix it by the second or third day just to perfect the experience. And for this year's edition, we switched to Navita. Navita is now a sponsor and offers the whole package with the Omni as the live tracking device. And we also have the Farnet stuff included now, so Farnet Plus. Because last time we had the whole thing via app, and there were problems with network switching across national borders.

And then we realized that we'd submitted the registration with the event. And we had that thing. And we had the status then, it just went a bit wrong. In the run-up, there were spontaneous changes and no one expected that. But I also went over the border into Germany to the first and second turnpoint back then. And then this tracking phone, which all the athletes had, said, "Welcome to Germany, do you want to activate your roaming now?" And I thought, oh oh. That is

a very interesting topic. Yes, nice story. But I mean, live tracking isn't exactly your role, we could talk about many things, but I want to go back to your role as Race Director and look at the selection of athletes again. Is it actually—I mean, the level has constantly risen over the years. When the level gets that high, how does that show up in the athletes who even apply? Does it mean there are few athletes who say, I'm confident enough for this? Where you say, the bar is just so high that many people don't even dare to sign up anymore because they have no chance anyway. Or is the scene, especially the hike-and-fly scene, being portrayed that way?

Or has it become so much more professional over the years that the number of applications you ultimately have to check has actually increased over time?

is? Well, historically I don't know, because I don't have any insight into that and I haven't really asked around. Basically, there are fewer applicants than you'd think at first glance. I was positively surprised when I got the list. Still, it's a lot of work to go through everything. Conversely, it clearly means there are countries where everyone knows who is eligible. And people don't get their hopes up as quickly about getting in. Still, you notice that—I mean, the first time there were about three people per nation where I was still going back and forth. We have to keep an eye on that again. You have to somehow operationalize it, put it into numbers, so that you can make the people comparable.

And now, in some nations, it was really incredibly tough. You have five people still in the running for, so to speak, one remaining spot. And yeah, that makes it really, really hard. It's no fun making that selection. And when you also know the people, and yeah, I'd also say—and I'm sorry to make myself a bit of a target here—I'd say we did make a mistake this time, looking back. You only sort of realize it after it's been announced. Like, before the race, you're like, what was the mistake? Yeah, whether we actually selected the right athletes. So, I'd say there were one or two instances this time where something went wrong.

Can you say the name? Don't you want to? No, I don't want to. I don't want to name the nations either. But it's, ultimately, after they've been selected and also from the point where they applied, they still start training. And a few athletes we put on our second list for future editions, whom we're already observing, there are people among them where I'd say, wow, they've developed so much by now that if the selection were happening now, they'd have much better chances. And that's why there are always surprises, and ultimately that's why the race remains exciting. I mean, if everyone were exactly equally good, sure, then it would be exciting too. But ultimately, they probably would...

They'll probably just be flying in the pack and racing around together. And that's when you suddenly see which routes, choices, and decisions there are. And it's not just a string of grapes anymore; the race suddenly becomes exciting.

What's noticeable this year is that there's only one woman participating, Celine Lorenz. And two years ago, in 2023, there were five women. And back then, people were like, "Oh wow, finally the Red Bull X-Alps, the women are actually coming." And that's how it went. Eli Egger even made it to the finish line as the first woman ever in a race and so on. And it sounded like, "Now the women are getting a bigger share of this." Now we only have...

one. What's going on? Yeah, I don't know exactly either. I mean, I think the stuff they had last time that was women-specific was really cool to watch. And I think that was actually motivating. And ultimately, we expected to have a lot, lot more awareness. We assumed there would be more applicants. But they just weren't there. And there were more applicants than just Celine now. But ultimately, they still have to bring a certain level. And one or another applicant will be ready for the X-Alps at some point. But as for the ones who are actually known in the scene, it was like the interest had sort of faded a bit. I don't know. And our idea now is simply to be a bit more proactive about it.

And the women who are being considered, to approach them and just ask. And by answering if they have any questions, try to influence the decision positively. To what extent does Vitamin B play a role in the selection?

Yes, as I actually just said, I would say... Well, if the Red Bull name carries weight, probably. No, I wouldn't say that at all. So if... if a Red Bull athlete from larger, important core markets—so from Red Bull core markets—were to apply, but there were more interesting athletes and we could justify it, I believe Red Bull would say, okay, then it's like this. As long as the race is exciting and we don't start cheating there, then it's fine. So, as I already mentioned, there was definitely a case where I said, well, that doesn't... that doesn't make sense to take that person, and that was totally fine. You just have to argue it objectively, and that's the big hurdle—that all these feelings you have or impressions from a video, putting that into numbers or on a scale, that is just extremely difficult.

And of course, mistakes can happen. I'm only human, and getting the scaling right with so many applicants is incredibly difficult. That's why we don't just go through it once; there are many process loops, and what we've just decided is regularly questioned.

Now you said you decide a lot of things as a team, but would you say that, precisely because you're so involved in the paragliding scene, because you have such a good eye on paragliding and know what matters regarding safety and all that, that you represent something like the tipping point as Race Director when it comes to selecting the athletes?

Yes, I think so. If I say, "Well, this person is totally unsafe," then they're out. So I could definitely influence it that way.

And are there also discussions where people come and say, hey, I'm not involved, it's just that Ferdi doesn't like me. That's why he...

kicked out. I try, if something like that happens—and it already happened last time—to just get in direct contact with the people, to talk to them objectively, to give them objective tips, to tell them why we decided against them. And you can actually see then how

they suddenly adjust their training plan or their... for example, there was once an applicant who was totally disappointed and said he's a total adventurer and this is an adventure race, so why isn't he allowed? And I said, yes, a safety aspect is experience in competition. And right now, it's not about cross-country flight competitions or anything like that, but just general competition experience. Because if you participate in a competition for the first time, and it doesn't matter, it could be a ski race or something, then that changes you. The moment you get into a competition mode and you're not used to that competition mode, you suddenly become more risk-tolerant. And it helps if people simply have a lot of competition experience. And I try to look at it completely rationally.

And I say that in the committee too. I know the person, I'm friends with them. And sometimes I just hand over the responsibility and try to really only give them the facts. And since I'm only one of three, and sometimes, when it's difficult, there are even five people deciding. And something else I do is try to gather expert knowledge from the people as well. So I'm always in direct contact with Inigo, I think his name is, from X-Pure. And we just exchange ideas. What experiences has he had with the athletes, or vice versa, when he has to select someone and he says, "Hey, did that person apply to you?"

What did she tell you? And that's how you get additional information that can be very, very valuable. And if they've done some bullshit at X-Pure, it's happened before that I just contacted the athlete and said, hey, I've heard this and that, please explain it to me. And I think looking at the selection from many different angles is what makes it valuable afterwards. Even so, it remains a bit unfair somewhere, because there isn't one single list that applicants can work towards. It's difficult.

Now I'm making myself completely vulnerable, but it's just how it is.

It's understandable, and you have to see that it's a race that doesn't... doesn't just have the sporting aspect, but also many other aspects, marketing and everything else that comes with it. Let's check off the selection a bit now. But there are other things you also have to do as a Race Director beforehand. One thing, I believe, is that you also determine or decide on the regulations regarding what is done there. And this year there was a rule that you introduced, or that you probably advocated for being introduced, which caused a bit of discussion. That was about harnesses and how long their tails can be. Yes. Why

or what was it about? Yeah, I can't really listen to that topic anymore. But shortly after the last X-Hype hype, it got to my ears that the first manufacturers were working on building those inflated harnesses—these giant harnesses you know from the World Cup—for the X-Hypes too, in ultra-lightweight. And at that time, it was definitely still the case that almost all World Cup pilots said it's not safety-safe, it's harder to fly, you see less, you can't reach the instruments, and all these problems. And I then listed and collected all those problems that are there.

But there are also positives, for example, it's nice and warm in there. So if you're sweating. If you sweat, start in short clothes, and then get stuck at the base up there, it's still nice and warm in there and the athletes don't have to shiver. But you still have a cough, though.

brought from Spain. More from the plane. Well, okay, jokes aside. Okay, it's nice and warm, that's the advantage. But now back to it, why did you introduce a rule for that?

Yeah, so ultimately, out of all the disadvantages, the one that came out as most safety-relevant was that if you ever have a stupid situation, you have to stall and you're flying slightly backwards, then you can't see anything anymore. You can't see anything anymore because? Because the tail is so long that it wraps around your head, so to speak, and then you really can't see anything at all. Aha. So you only have to fly the stall by feel? Well, it's possible; I believe you can fly a stall with any harness currently on the market where the tail points straight up, and then you can still see about half of the glider or something. That works. But if you just go... if you go to SIV training with people, including the athletes, and say, do a few stalls or try them out over ground somehow, then there were just a lot of videos and a lot of feedback.

Yes, that is really intense. I have to admit, I never tried it myself. Maybe I should have just done it once. But it popped up everywhere—at the World Cup, in the FAI commission, in the Civil commission, everywhere. And at the World Cup, after the harnesses came out, there was just a series of accidents, including back injuries, because it's just extra stress during landing. At the time this whole thing popped up, the magnetic solution idea didn't exist yet. Back then, it was all still with zippers. And I just said, hey, there's no legal basis defining the outer shell. And any athlete is allowed to tinker with the shell without losing their certification.

And really serious things can happen. If you're hanging on the rescue handle, you can suddenly be strangled. Nobody tests that. It's not a certification criterion. Sure, the entire area of the rescue handle and so on is relevant for certification. But what the tail looks like, how big it is, or what it looks like around the neck is not defined anywhere. We need a rule for that, and we need it as quickly as possible because the companies are working on it. And I then got in touch with some of the companies.

At that time, I wasn't a Nova CEO yet. And this additional change did lead to some friction, after all. Because it was said that I was conducting espionage and so on. But at Nova, we have absolutely zero ideas about building anything in that direction.

Conducted espionage in the sense that you already knew about the projects, that they were building harnesses with such long tails, right?

Yeah, for example, Super agreed to do a video call with me, showed me their prototype, and pointed out in great detail what thoughts they had and what they improved to address that whole catalog of negative points regarding these harnesses. And I was impressed, and a lot of work had been done, but not the "Stolz" issue. And I told myself, okay, no one—they all promised to send me videos and so on, but no one sent me anything and no one could promise me that what they're doing with those huge tails is cool. And then at some point I said, okay, we need a rule now. On one hand, for the life jacket, because if they're crossing large lakes, they need an inflatable life jacket.

It's quite small compared to what you have in SIV training today, but if they fall into the harness, they still shouldn't be strangled. That means we need some kind of rule, and specifically for the pride issue. We gathered a lot of ideas and discussed them a lot. I tried to find out what considerations they had in the Civil Working Group. I always had the hope that the Civil Working Group would be faster, that something would get included in the EN. I tried to listen in with WG6 to see if they were planning anything for the World Cup. And everyone always said, yes, they're planning something. But when they finally sent me the documents they had so far, there was never anything really relevant in there that solves the problem.

And no manufacturer was able to suggest any innovation, an innovative idea on how to... Because there are possibilities. By now, there are also proven methods. But at that time—I mean, we're talking about over a year ago—there was nothing. And then at some point I said, okay, that's enough.

We're just limiting the tail length to what was the longest harness in the last editions. Period. And then I went measuring and found two harnesses that had the longest tails in the photos—well, from side photos. And then I contacted the manufacturers and just said, hey, please measure how long your tail is, like this and that. And based on that, we defined a centimeter measurement. And then it was just about how to measure it best so that the manufacturer... At the beginning, I didn't have the manufacturer in mind, but the athlete, so that they don't get anything in their face, right? But then at some point, well, the manufacturer also has to be able to reproduce it down to the centimeter. Now, the harnesses have a line from somewhere in the neck area to the furthest point,

so that when you pull back, you don't pull the fabric along, but the line stops the whole thing. And then it's clearly defined. So, total nonsense. Just building a line into the X-Hypes like that. And I'm also not saying that this rule... will remain once the Civil or the EN or something defines a standard. And with the Civil, there are ideas about it now, but they're having a really hard time. They've really struggled to define these exact issues. Many of the working groups eventually said, when we published our rules, that it sounds somewhat logical; you're stomping out or restricting innovations, which I don't think is cool for the X-Hypes either, but it's just so difficult. And with the Civil, the idea now is that certification test pilots from the testing centers will fly the harnesses and perform a full stall.

But by now I know that if you know how to initiate the stall depending on the harness, you can do it with any harness. So from that perspective, it's actually... you've defined a rule that doesn't achieve anything. But I just didn't have those possibilities. I can hardly find test pilots who would also fit into the respective harnesses for the X-Hypes. Those are usually custom-made. And most people are smaller than I am. And that's simply unrealistic. And that's why the decision was simply that no harness can fly that is longer than what has already been flown in the last editions. That's sort of the whole story behind it. It's sad, the Civil hasn't published anything to this day. The World Cup hasn't published anything. There is no standard. Anyone can do whatever they want with the outer shell.

And then it always came... the easy argument was always, yeah, done. That's not so safety-relevant. The thin protectors are much more relevant. Do something about those. Then I said, but there are standards for that. And X-Hypes doesn't see itself as a standard-setter. So we don't want to design new standards or additionally higher standards like what already exists. We just take what's already there. And where there is nothing, we just have to find a rule. Okay. Enough about the butt pads.

Are there any other rule changes, additional rules for this X-Alps edition, that we should have on the glider?

We have the elimination. Every 48 hours, the last person is eliminated. That's been changed slightly. I think it used to be at 6 a.m. Now it's at 8 a.m. For one thing, the experience was that at 6 a.m., it's really only the early birds. Mostly people on their way to work. They don't really notice it at all. And it was often already decided by then whether the person still has a night pass or not. And somehow it would get decided during the night, where no one notices. And now the idea was to make it more pleasant. It's also more pleasant for all the runners and so on who are around. And now they just have a bit more time after the night's rest to show that they can still overtake the others.

I think that makes it a bit more exciting. Yes, I think that's an important change that people should know about. And then we tried to make the finish line a bit safer. We tried to define a rule without interrupting the race. So, you could just say whoever arrives at the top wins. Like the last turnpoint up on the mountain. And then you're allowed to fly down. But then the idea is, no, the race ends at the bottom. And now we have to make that somehow safer. So we said, okay, then there's a sort of end-of-speed section. That's usually a cylinder around a turnpoint. Whoever flies into that first has stopped the clock.

But the time doesn't stop; you just get a sort of credit, so to speak. Yes, or a ten-minute pause where you can land safely at the top, put on your life jacket, sign the paperwork, and then get ready to go again. And during that time, you don't have to worry. You can't be overtaken. That's the rule, simplified.

That means you land safely at the top of the Schmittenhöhe and then the clock stops. You're saying you have about ten minutes now, and then it starts again, and ultimately the clock stops...

time down. Yes, exactly. So, for example, it could be that someone decides to run down and someone else waits at the top, and then they can still overtake him. So, if they all arrive more or less at the same time, the live trackers detect when who crossed this line, and then they can start with a maximum and minimum distance of one minute from each other. So the second person also has to wait at the top for another minute, because otherwise, it would only be about who flies out at full throttle over the lake and spirals down the fastest. So they have a one-minute buffer, and they've discussed it with several athletes. Some don't think it's cool, some say, okay, no, that works. It definitely makes it safe enough, and we'll just see how it goes now.

It's... It's an idea to make the X-Alp safer while still keeping the racing character. Let's get to the route. Yes. In

this year it's 1,283 kilometers, longer than ever before. I think it's about 50 kilometers longer than last time, in 2023. There are four Alpine crossings, a prominent X in the middle, and twice St. Moritz in Switzerland is the turnaround point where everything meets again.

What part... do you have in that?

So that it turned out the way it does now. Do you have any input on that at all? Or do you basically just get the route from the Race Committee and all the organizers who work on it for two years or something? Do you just have it put on your desk and say,

Is that it? I'd say a few things are predetermined, partly because the turnpoint destinations are contract partners, and in some cases, sponsors. And where we can find sponsors... And then it's discussed, are they too close together? Can we arrange the route somehow so they aren't in such a short distance, like we have now, for example, in Locarno and then in Zona?

But you try and discuss it, but you also have to somehow make sure you land a few sponsors so that the X-Alps can even remain possible. Because with all the requirements there are, an event like this is no longer manageable without sponsors. Yes, then it's about arranging them in a way that there's still an exciting route, so that it's something new for once. And I think this time there are definitely some corners where the athletes have never been before in the X-Alps, or where it's coming from the other direction for once. And then you try to see if we need to put an additional turnpoint in between somewhere? Like now, for example, at Mont Blanc, where they have to go up a via ferrata.

So, Mont Blanc... This time, for the first time, they don't have to go around to the north; instead, on the south side of Mont Blanc, they have to climb a via ferrata, relatively far up, and then they're allowed to start from the top. These kinds of things, these little details. And then there's a lot, a lot of work afterwards to define the turnpoint destinations—where do you put the turnpoint sign? Do we need an area outside where they aren't allowed to land? Because if you put the turnpoint sign in the middle of the village and then... then the athletes suddenly get the idea, "Oh, that park looks big enough, I'll just land in there so I don't have to walk in." To avoid that, we've had to set up no-landing areas around it or define landing zones in some places.

That involves a lot of briefing work with the athletes. You get into the file and then have to create new airspaces using the GPS coordinates that didn't exist before. There's no tool for that; sometimes you have to do it manually by entering the coordinates into the file and so on. In the end, a lot of organizational effort still remains.

You mentioned that regarding the safety aspect, your entire paraglider experience and so on comes into play as a consultant. To what extent does your paraglider experience also come into play as a consultant for the route? Or is it ultimately a matter of saying, okay, the turnpoints are fixed, and how they are walked and, above all, flown is up to the athletes. So you don't have to get that far ahead. Thinking out what will be done there.

No, it's just that, where we now knew, okay, we still have L'Estée Alpes included. That's the southernmost turnpoint down in France. Yes, exactly. We have it included, the route is getting long because the start and finish were already defined. And then it was about how can we now lay out the turnpoints so that the routes in between become like racing lines, so to speak, where the athletes can make it easy. How can we place the turnpoints... in places so that they don't have to hike far up to start again immediately. Such issues are already relevant there. And my paragliding experience is then more like things such as, can you land on that meadow or is it not safe?

And this time, there are two destinations where I've never been myself. One is St. Moritz and the other is the one in France. And I had to learn that first as well. I did have local pilots... get information for me. But when we decided on the destinations, for example, we weren't quite as aware that the winch becomes so strong during the day. Or that exactly where we thought we'd put a landing field, it can get so turbulent. Because simply two valley winds sweep over a mountain and then create a total washing machine effect, and, and, and. What's the problem in St. Moritz, then? No, in St. Moritz we have more of a wind problem, where quite quickly on a normal afternoon... there can be 40 km/h wind in the valley, and then the landing field suddenly has to be large, and having a lake at your back isn't so great, for example, and the wind can also come from another direction with similar strength, and then it suddenly becomes quite complex.

Then in St. Moritz, we still have the airport, which has airspace above it. For safety reasons, we negotiated with them so that the athletes could land and fly in there. And topics like that are... and experience helps in getting meaningful cooperation done. I mean, I found it really pleasant to communicate with the airport; that was already prepared, but when they realized, I think, that I don't know my way around everything either, they said, okay, that's fine, and then you can suddenly negotiate other things. There are many athletes who don't know anything about airspace, but I keep that in mind and can address it... during the preparation week, it will be noticed. I went into such points quite a bit until the athletes understand what's going on, but it doesn't always work.

Do you scout things like that on-site? Like, do you ever drive to St. Moritz or Les Deux Alpes and say, I'll just fly there and do a landing approach just to get an impression of what will actually be realistic in the end?

That would certainly be sensible, but I didn't do it for either edition. I know most of the things through WorldCast, and by flying routes myself and traveling around. But I just try to get information through Google Earth images, Google Street View, photos I get of the destination, conversations with local pilots, tandem pilots, and so on. Now, with St. Moritz, it was just difficult because that exact spot is normally the airspace. That means there's little paraglider-specific experience there. But I think we have a cool solution now. So the athletes have to go down to the lake first, they can land there on a large area.

If the wind is too strong, they have alternative landing sites; they have to take a selfie there first and then head up to the village. If they had gone directly to the village, they would have had to land somewhere on the slope up there or something and then walk down. We managed to avoid that well.

And in France, we'll see how we're going to set that up now. We're still not completely final on that. If we had decided finally, it would be out now. They've put up new cable cars there.

Suddenly there's a cable across the landing field. Yeah, so the cable is semi-relevant, but now they've just put up a fence there and that's halved the landing area again. And now we're looking for another solution. Let's see, maybe the route will get a bit longer.

Where do you see the biggest difficulties on the route? Yes. Wow, that's so weather-specific. Most athletes are afraid they won't make it to the finish because it's so long. Do you have that fear too?

That's one of my jobs—to say what's the realistically fastest the top athletes will manage? What's the realistic outcome if the weather is more or less average? And what if it's just pouring down most of the time and they can only glide occasionally? How far are they on which day? And there's... there's a complex list for that. I've even used a hiking app map, just like the athletes do, to look up the kilometers and elevation gain, and I've walked the entire route myself.

So to speak of, virtually and also by plane, what is possible. And yes, if the weather is really brutal and they can only make descents rarely, sure, then it becomes pretty unrealistic. I think they would need, what did they give out, 24 days or something? Yeah, 12. They have that. So, really unrealistic, but if you take the average values of recent years and see the direction of development, they will be at the finish line after seven days. And that is actually almost too early again.

They're supposed to stay out there in the Alps a bit longer

have their adventure. Last time, I think there were 23 athletes who made it to the finish line within the race time.

Now it's become longer and so on. And last time, the weather was also very flight-friendly, even though it wasn't easy to fly. But they all flew a very, very lot during it as well. What's your prediction on how many of the athletes can realistically make it to the finish line this year?

Yeah, it's also weather-dependent. So, it could go similarly to last time. But because the route has become a bit trickier, I assume there won't be quite as many. So, that's the main change as to why there were so many last time. And what we've learned is that the race isn't over once the first person crosses the finish line and then runs for a few more hours. Instead, there's now just a hard deadline. The race runs until then. Period. And because of that, they simply had much more time. Because if they had used the old rules, some of them wouldn't have made it to the finish line at all.

We'll see. We'll have to wait and see. I think you can estimate it at some point.

And we are very optimistic that someone will reach the finish line and make it.

And the goal isn't for 20 people to finish. Definitely not. That's not the goal we've been working towards. It should be fewer.

But the route hasn't gotten any shorter because you say, okay, there are too many at the finish. We need to filter out more. Or do we?

Already. Yes. I mean, it's just the trend. It's not as striking as it used to be. But yeah, the level is rising. So the race course is allowed to be demanding as well.

People are always watching what the athletes are doing during the race. They can start running at 5 a.m., they can run until 10 p.m. at night. But what does a day look like for a Race Director? So the athletes get up at 5 a.m. Do you have to be standing on the mat or sitting in the car already making phone calls?

Yeah, well, to be honest, that was one of the reasons why I pushed the 48-hour elimination back a bit. Because that was every other day—the mandatory early morning thing. Especially since I didn't just have to get up, but I had to find a video filming spot by, I think, 5 a.m., where they could film me and where it was quiet enough. So, not next to the train tracks where the background looks nice and where I can then talk to the athlete on the phone and tell him that he's unfortunately out. And I hated that. Because I often didn't go to bed until 2 or 3 a.m., because most of the inquiries just come in after the athletes enter their rest phase, go to sleep, or just before they're allowed to continue again after their night's rest.

That's where most of the questions about the rules come from. Does the tunnel count? Are they allowed to go through there? Because it's just some kind of structure, like avalanche protection or something. And those kinds of questions come up. And accordingly, my nights are pretty short. And last time, because there was so much flyable terrain, a lot of time-sensitive topics also came up during the day. I think if the weather is a bit more mixed and people have to just hike for longer periods, then it's all a bit more relaxed. But for me, it was actually, I just sat in the car, so luckily I didn't have to drive myself. My girlfriend drove and guided me through it. I coached the area, but we actually just sat in the car from morning until evening just to somehow keep up with the athletes, because they were much faster than what you could do in a car.

So we made it, but just barely. And accordingly, I was on the road from morning until night, on my phone constantly, checking the live tracking myself, getting info from friends who saw something unusual in the live tracking, because I don't watch every single detail in the live tracking. And last time, I was actually really using the live tracking because I suddenly became the guinea pig; I had a live tracking device to test the software that was being developed during the event, so I was trying that out. I think I checked once, and I had seven or eight hours of pure phone time a day where I was just on the phone. Oh wow, red ear.

Yeah, and then you have to make sure the phones are charged again. And all the problems the athletes actually have, plus stories like the athletes being pretty far ahead at the beginning of the race, going over a mountain ridge, and right behind the ridge there were horses in a pasture and they went crazy. Then topics like that suddenly pop up, and you have to try and sort that out with the farmer again, and the logistics of the whole thing—you can hand that off to the assistants they have for that, but initially, you're the point of contact. Everything the athletes and the supporters need lands with me at first. You just have that...

Give me an example—someone is running, comes to a possible tunnel they aren't allowed to go through, or maybe it's just an avalanche gallery or something. I mean, you don't know all the routes where someone can run along. How do you decide on something like that? Do you check Google Earth to see if there are pictures of it and say, real tunnel, not a real tunnel? Or how do you do that?

Yeah, well, luckily there's Google Street View almost everywhere. That means you can look along the streets in a 360-degree view and get a good impression of it. Then I use the hiking maps on my phone and think about what alternatives are available for the athlete at that moment. And then you just have to take a look at it. And I still remember, that was in Switzerland, shortly after Fiersch. There were several athletes who wanted to go through the same tunnel. And that was the only sensible option for the athletes at that point. And we then discussed whether to just allow it for everyone. Because the very first ones had asked for it. And I think the race has to be safe.

But it also has to be fair. And it still has to be sporting. Fairness is important to me. So, the same rules for everyone.

And then we said, well, there's an alternative. You have to take the alternative. And that is definitely a tunnel that actually leads into another valley. Only about halfway, but still. And yeah, then they all had to go around. That's how it is. And it's really time-critical. Because there are actually athletes who, in this case, gave notice half an hour beforehand. And said, hey, are we allowed to do that or not? But sometimes they're really standing in front of the tunnel and say, uh, Ferdi, there's a tunnel here. Am I allowed to go through it now or not?

And then you have to zoom in really fast on your phone, pull up Google Street View and all that. And then say, stay there. I'll have it in a second. I'll have it in a second. Wait just a bit. Wait just a bit. Ah, yeah, no, no, not that one.

Go around the outside. Yes, exactly. And if it's a difficult decision, then I also have to coordinate that with the race committee, because I don't make the decision alone. Yes, then I have to briefly document everything, summarize it. We have several WhatsApp groups available, and then, yes, there's a decision. And accordingly, they are ready around the clock during the race. They also watch the live tracking, look at it, and you try to somehow pull it off together. You drive

the athlete behind you, you said, or you try to keep up with them. At some point, the field stretches out quite far.

How do you decide? Do I ride up front now, where maybe Pino, Kriegel, and whoever else is out there? Or do I stay more in the middle field or something? So, what's the deciding factor for you in terms of where you position yourself?

I basically try to cover everyone. Of course, it's not possible, like you just said, because the field eventually gets too spread out. But I try to be where there's the most potential for problems. Where I can also best assess the situation from the ground. For example, when they flew through the Dolomites in that Föhn storm last time, I was down there with them. To get a feel for it. And to be able to react if necessary.

Could you have ordered them to make a forced landing, theoretically? Well, yes, we could. The rulebook is basically set up so that the athlete always has to decide for themselves.

And that's also very important, because I can't be there everywhere all the time. And that's the difference compared to the World Cup. So in the World Cup, whether the athletes or the pilots abort the task and land, that's not decided by the pilot—very rarely, at least now with the lead group—but it's decided by the race director. And if the race director doesn't decide anything, then they keep flying until it eventually becomes a bit too much for the people. But that's very, very late. And for the X-Hypes, the athlete has to do that themselves. And that's the big difference. And people who mainly come from the World Cup, so as an example, say Maxim Pinot, he sent me messages several times saying it's way too extreme, he's not up for it anymore, it's not working, we have to stop,

so, almost in that direction. Like, did you call it Level 2 or maybe Level 3? Exactly, I'd say it was Level 4.

With the Dolomite flight, I mean, that was certainly also... I didn't see his final landing, but I think that was way beyond anything he ever imagined he'd experience at the X-Hypes. And afterwards, he just wrote to me saying he's voluntarily giving himself a yellow card for unsafe flying. Yeah, so those kinds of conversations do happen. And I basically try to be there at the front, because that's where it's more relevant regarding decisions that affect the ranking later. But we have a huge number of runners, let's call them. These are helper lines that are also out there during the race. We have a medical team, which is a race doctor and then several paramedics who also... individually.

And while out on the race, they look at the people, especially those further back, and check the live ranking to see who has run a lot or who is suddenly running slower. Then they just pull up to that person and check, for example, what the blister situation is like on their feet. Or yeah, there are many medical issues that mainly have to be checked in the back of the pack. And at the front, you usually notice it anyway when the supporter team reports in. So we've also handed over a certain responsibility to the supporters. They now always have to confirm that their athlete is fit to fly before the athlete takes to the air each day. To incorporate more safety features, which are easily doable with today's technology.

To simply make the race safer in the areas where we have control.

Now, that's a bit of a stretch. But you haven't used any AI or anything else running in the background that, for example, knows the typical flight tactics and running speeds and stuff from the athletes to say, hey, we see something isn't right with this one and that one, so the automated alarm is basically asleep.

Yeah, so these automated alarms exist, but they're not AI-based; they're just defined by parameters. For example, it would flag it if someone gets into a car or sits in the trunk and travels at the same speed for a long time, something like that would pop up immediately. Or if an athlete briefly covers the GPS and then drives along in the front of a car and then pauses again, so to speak. Those kinds of things pop up, and then you look at them, and if in doubt, you just request the alternative track. Has that happened before? Yes, regularly. Also just if the GPS failed or something, or the live tracker cut out, for whatever reason, then yes.

Yeah, so last time, because of all the problems with the live tracking, I think there wasn't a single athlete who didn't have to send an alternative track log at some point.

But I mean, has it ever actually happened where you could prove, hey, you were sitting in the car? No. So, is someone cheating there?

No, I don't assume that, because the athletes—you can tell when you're out there in a race—you're constantly under observation. There are so many spectators who know he's going to come past right now. I'm standing by the road, and if you were to screw up somewhere, you'd be caught immediately. So the community outside is like an additional Big Brother, constantly watching. And as an athlete, you notice too that you're actually never not under observation. And then there's also, even if you're out in the high mountains, the athlete is often not told that the camera team is coming around the corner, and then suddenly the camera team is standing there in front of you. Because they know where the next launch site is, where they need to position themselves, and where they're going to catch them, so you're never alone during the whole race.

There is an element of adventure to it, and sure, there are those moments where you feel like, wow, I'm out here alone in the Alps, which is very impressive, especially when there's an evening—or morning—atmosphere. But ultimately, we always have them somewhat under control. So you're never

...in front of a runner, who then comes along somewhere there. What about

Doping? Yes, well, our race doctor knows his stuff, and if he notices anything strange, we have tests with us and can perform them. And in the past, there have also been athletes who were disqualified from the race. Because of doping? Because they doped, but doping is hard to pin down—for example, it starts with those mega-hot editions where it's constantly almost 40 degrees

...temperatures. That's where we start. Then the athletes sometimes start to dehydrate very severely. And if they've been running around all day with too little UV protection or headwear or something else because it's box-stable, they can end up getting sunstroke. And then, for example, it's a fine line when you give an athlete an infusion. That can already be considered doping. And there were problems like that. Or if someone uses a nasal spray. Or an asthma spray or something like that, exactly, that can also be doping. And for the X-Hypes, the general doping regulations apply—I don't even know what they're called. There are clear definitions, and there really were athletes who weren't officially disqualified as a doping case because that can lead to real, sometimes even criminal, problems.

That means it's done under the table somewhere. But I know of two cases where it actually happened. Not intentional doping, though. It was always somehow on the borderline. So sure, they knew it helped, but it wasn't real doping where you'd say the person was able to keep running for two days because of it.

That means drinking Red Bull, Red Bull gives you wings, and stuff like that isn't considered doping for you.

Let's get to the end of the race, or rather the end of the podcast. At some point, it's over for you too after the race. With athletes, there's this thing where some say they fall into a bit of a slump afterward because the race itself was so intense. And after that, the meaning is kind of gone, where you first have to ask yourself, what do I do now? I prepared for so long and everything was focused on the race and nothing else. And you have to find your way back into everyday life again. Did you experience anything like that after the last race, where you were out there at full throttle as Race Director for two weeks?

It's both yes and no. Well, I think I was just extremely exhausted and had to find a sleep rhythm again first. I often woke up thinking I hadn't heard my phone or something. I must have called some athlete. So, definitely in that direction. But otherwise, at least during the last edition, it was my normal daily life. I was out and about, I gave many cross-country flight seminars, I was testing, I was outside all the time. So that was it. The difference wasn't really there, it was more like this phone—I didn't hear the phone or something. I overslept and didn't notice it, oh boy, that was a bit of where my "hole" was, so to speak. But I know it from the athletes, that they also have this sleep problem and that they all actually think, I'm never doing that again.

And for some, it's already like, "When can the next edition start?" and for others, it's sometimes not until a few months later.

Is that the case for you too?

right? Is it also

...so that you think, okay, now I'm becoming Race Director for the second time, but is it that much fun that you're saying, I want to stay in this role?

Yeah, I mean, it is fun, but it's a bit difficult right now with the split roles.

Because you're also a managing director at Nova and there might be someone there, there are conflicts of interest or things like that.

Yeah, exactly. So that topic keeps popping up for me regularly. I always try to push it through. I try to get the conversations going again and it actually works quite well. But still, it's not cool. We try to manage it so that certain video proofs or things like that aren't reviewed by me, but by other team members—for example, now that they already have their equipment, so that no know-how could theoretically migrate to Nova again. We've just built things like that in now to ensure transparency.

But well, I enjoy it. It's an experience. Sometimes I'd like to be up in the air myself during that time, because as Race Director, I'm not even allowed in the air. Last time, I couldn't take it anymore at some point and went down to do a bit of ground handling for a short while. There was a bit of wind at one turn point. There was still time for that. Wow. Yeah, so when I arrived at the turn point and the athletes were a bit slower than we thought, I stood there and did a bit of ground handling and then got back on the pickup. And then I'm there. And so on.

Yeah, but I'm not allowed in the air during that time. And that means for me, not flying for three weeks. But currently, it's a habit. But last time, it wasn't a habit. That was pretty tough. I was already feeling the flight withdrawal after that.

Well, you have

You just mentioned your dual role as Nova managing director, and others might say, okay, there's a conflict of interest there. Are you maybe spying on them or something? To what extent is it a conflict of interest for Nova because of how much time you have to put into X-Axis? Since your time is missing from there too. So you're a boss in two places and probably have to manage a lot, but in that time, you probably have very little headspace left for your own company.

Yeah, well, I think I've managed that pretty well. X-Axis is, in most cases, just after work and on the weekends. I also told the team when this popped up—that I have the chance to become managing director—that I'll have less time now, and so a few points were simply distributed within the team so that I only oversee things or give tips. And that actually makes it relaxed for me. It's not a huge amount of work involved. And yeah, as a boss, you can organize a bit how and when you work. So there are days when I'm still working late for Nova on Friday evening, and then there's how, for example, this Monday morning. Yeah. And then I can do a podcast for the X-Alps.

Last question, the one everyone always wants to know. Your tip: who will win the Red Bull X-Alps 2025? Yes,

I actually get that question quite often. I'm not going to give a tip because there are so many people who are doing super, super well. I know the people personally. I know their strengths and weaknesses and what has changed compared to the last edition. I think it's going to be exciting. I think it was already exciting last time.

And I'd say the title of "Defender" is getting harder to hold onto sometimes. But he still manages to prove that he simply has the most experience. And I believe that when he relies on that experience, he scores points. And the defenders who are trying to knock him off his throne are getting better and better, and they're gaining more and more experience too. And that's why it stays exciting.

And would you say it would do the X-Alps any harm if someone else won—whatever the subjunctive part and all that is—if someone else won? Or is it actually good for the X-Alps to say, okay, now Kriegel has won for a ninth time and maybe he can even win a tenth time next time and so on? So that a series like that ultimately also makes it appealing. That you say, there's really an eagle being hunted by everyone.

does. I think that's part of the appeal to some extent. But I think even if someone else were constantly on the podium from now on, or if it became more exciting every time, the X-Alps would still remain the most adventurous, diverse event. And yeah, I mean, last time it was actually pretty close until the very end. And that makes the race somehow exciting. Like when someone is leading way out front. Even so, I always rooted for Kriegel when he was out front. And even last time, I thought he was still heading west. He messed up once and had to slog for about three hours down in the valley until it went uphill again. Where I then thought, let's see how it goes this time.

And then, out of nowhere, he was back in the lead group. And that's what makes the race. The weather is unpredictable—or rather, difficult to grasp. And the decisions the athletes have to make, sometimes within seconds, where they have to decide: do we fly to the north side or the south side? Those kinds of critical decisions are what define the race afterwards. And it's still so exciting for me that sometimes I think I should actually get off my ass and start exercising more to try and participate again. But I think I'm a bit too old by now to reshape my body like that.

But the adventure you experience at the Hike & Fly races, which I've participated in myself, is already impressive. And sometimes I miss the fact that I didn't do more in that direction. If you were to now,

that's a big if, but if you were to say that with your age and your body, it would all work out, would you rather be an athlete than a race director?

Yeah, well, yes. It's always been the case that back then, because I had so many back problems, I said, okay, I'm putting this aside and I don't want to participate anymore, and I actually withdrew my application shortly before the selection took place.

And I think it was a good decision. It did my body good because I'm just not built the way you're supposed to be as an athlete nowadays.

But the adventures you experience there—just flying along that route, where you'd never get past in cross-country flying—I was able to experience that when I was part of the PAL, because back then, the supporters were still allowed to fly along. And we did some breathtaking flights over the main Alpine ridge several times and along the Monte Rosa massif. And that was already impressive. So there were flights there that will never leave my mind. A beautiful memory, in any case.

Ferdi, thank you so much for your time and for the great storytelling. I think that after listening to this—if they've held out this far—people will have learned a lot more about your role as Race Director. Thanks for speaking so openly about it; I think that's great. I believe some people might look at the race a bit differently now, or perhaps they'll interpret some of your decisions that pop up here and there in a different light—maybe they'll say, "Oh, that might have made sense." Or maybe there's even another story behind it that isn't being made fully public right now. But who knows, maybe doping or cloud flying or something else was involved that isn't supposed to be. Thank you for your

time. Thank you for letting me be a part of this again. It was really exciting and cool. Your questions are always really nice. And yes, I think the X-Hype is a really cool, great event for all of us in the paragliding scene. And I wish you guys a lot of fun watching, and I'll see you around.

Ferdinand Vogel was a guest on Podz-Glidz before. In episode 13, Flybird. Back then, he talked about how he became a successful competition pilot and what it takes to do that. Many of his pointers and tips are still valuable, timeless, and insightful. It's worth listening back to that one again. The link to it is in the show notes for this episode.

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Stay healthy and enjoy the freedom of flight. Ciao.