When you find something you really like, you have to pursue it, and then a way to do it well will usually present itself, which is why I say, okay, if you find anything, a passion, definitely pursue it. I think that's one of the most important things I've learned through paragliding.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Simon Oberrauner and I'm Lucian Haas.
The Red Bull X-Alps are considered the world's most extreme paragliding race. They fly in conditions there that hobby pilots wouldn't even dream of taking their glider out in. Foehn conditions, rain showers, the heaviest valley wind. What goes through an athlete's mind in moments like that? Simon Oberrauner tells us about that and many other interesting details in this episode 166 of Podz-Glidz. The 34-year-old Austrian has already participated in six X-Alps. Once as a supporter, five times as an athlete. In 2025, he finished in third place by a hair. But the podcast isn't a retelling of the race.
The conversation covers a wide range of topics. How did Simon become the kind of flying machine that can fight through massive turbulence but also follow highly intuitive lines? And what of those experiences can he pass on to his students as a flight instructor? We talk about virtues that don't just help us with flying. Patience, a love for experimenting, thirst for knowledge, passion. Since you're listening to the podcast, why not become a supporter of Podz-Glidz? You can find out how on the GluGlides page in the Gleitschirm-Blog. Simon,
You participated in the X-Alps, but you also run a flight school together with Tommy Friedrich, who also took part in the X-Alps. How do those two things actually go together? Professional racing, basically, and then the mundane life of a flight instructor?
Oh, straight to the hard or difficult question. We're escalating things. A very good question. Yes, we're escalating. I think so too.
How does that work? It actually goes surprisingly well. You still get a good amount of flying in because you usually have more time during the week. If, for example, several flight days get pushed to the weekend, then you get a bit less flying in because, so to speak, more school time is required. But specifically now, for example, to prepare for a race like the X-Alps, I also have to mention that I had already trained a lot beforehand—even before I took over the flight school with Tommy.
And I invested a lot, a lot of time into paragliding in general. I mean, I started studying back then and paragliding at the same time. At the beginning, my studies were very present. I really invested a lot of time into that. And then paragliding became more and more of a thing. And I noticed, wow, there's so much passion and so much energy for paragliding there, from my side. And actually, I never really looked at it with the view of, I absolutely have to make a living from this. But simply, it's something so beautiful and I like learning. I just like, I like understanding thermals more. I like understanding how to fly cross-country. And I found that incredibly fascinating.
And I'd be sitting there in the lectures, looking out the window, and just thinking to myself, I didn't catch the last hour of the lecture. I didn't hear a thing because I was actually just watching the cumulus clouds forming out there. And then it just became more and more about paragliding. And there were also quick, cool successes and all that. The funny thing was, I didn't really compare myself to others in any way; I just always had my own goals. And that's why success was always there for me. And that's why I invested so, so much time into paragliding in total beforehand. And then it was with Border Races and competitions and once at Paul's, when I was there myself, etc.
That means there was a huge wealth of experience there. And that's why it's working so well now with the flight school. I need to...
just jump in quickly, just because a few people might be wondering. Please. What did you study?
I did a technical college first and then studied electrical engineering, but I didn't finish my degree. That means you have
dropped your studies for paragliding? Right. Yes, exactly. And then you only went paragliding and only trained and were only in
the air?
Exactly. Yes. Right, yeah. And tandem flying. And exactly. That means you financed it with tandem flying first? Right. And then at some point, with sporting success, maybe the first sponsors came along and they co-financed you a bit too? A bit.
Yeah, exactly. A bit. I mean, it's hard, there isn't really much money at the beginning, and even now it's still very hard to live solely off paragliding from sponsors. For me, it's not easy, let me put it that way. Exactly. It wouldn't work out, but with the flight school together.
My question at the beginning, you're focusing so strongly on how to manage that organizationally. What interested me, or when I was thinking about the question for myself, was more about how you manage that in your head? Because those are two different demands somehow, and maybe two completely different motivations. One is... yes, in a certain way, very egocentric. You want to fly, you want to do X-Alps. And the other is something that isn't egocentric at all, but rather you want to pass something on, you want to help others. How do you bring these two poles together?
So for me, these two poles actually complement each other very well. You described it beautifully. One is, of course, the X-Alps with the competition. Although I always try to... it is a competition, guaranteed, and it's about who reaches the finish line first. But the path there is actually much more complex if you only have the goal in mind, or only the finish line or the competition. So if you only see competitors, you usually don't get very far. Because at the beginning, it's also about cooperation, checking out routes; trying to push your own way through right from the start is very difficult with the X-Alps.
And if you only do it that way and don't see other paths, or the paths others take, and don't constantly rethink what's better or smarter, you won't get very far anyway. And the combination with the flight school is the beautiful thing. It means I learn an insane amount. Even with every X-Alps, there's an incredible amount of learning involved. And in the flight school, even if the knowledge I'm building during the X-Alps doesn't provide anything to a basic student at all, I can still... somehow break it down? Exactly, you can break it down a bit.
And because you see so much and can assess so many conditions, you can pass that knowledge on to the student very well. Convey it further. And for me, it's beautiful, like today. I just came from the practice slope and we had the first flight with the new basic course today. And when you stand down there and take the shoes off—accompanying them on the radio—and they land and are just incredibly happy, it always reminds me of my first flight. And that was in the same training area. And there, yeah, I find myself thinking quite often, wow, I actually dreamed about it so many times, that I could just make paragliding my profession.
And I have so many facets of paragliding now, by no means all of them. Ultimately through cross-country flying, hike and fly, and teaching, so to speak, and maybe lectures and coaching. But there is so much more to me than that. To experience and to learn. And that's actually my motivation. So, just getting better and experiencing more and seeing more and understanding more. And then passing that on as well, I find that beautiful.
What fascinates you the most about teaching other people how to fly?
Because it's such a fascination for me,
it fascinates me like crazy when I sometimes see that sparkle in other people's eyes, when... And it keeps happening. When it's the first flight, that's the first thermals exit, that's the first small cross-country flight. And there's this motivation and enthusiasm and simply the joy of someone, that makes me think, wow, you did it now. And it gives the person themselves so much, yeah, it gives the person so much. And they're happy. And if you're allowed to accompany them a bit and give tips, and then this person manages it. And the funny thing is, many then come and sometimes say, yeah, but if you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have had a chance, I wouldn't have made it.
And I say, hey, even if I give tips and maybe the tip worked out this time and so on, you're still the pilot and you make the decision yourself. And that's always difficult and not easy, doing a cross-country flight at the small scale or cranking out a thermal. And I just get so happy when students come and just tell me about the experience. And yeah, it was exactly like you explained it back then and it could be like this. And then it worked out there. Or, oh no, I flew right into that lee trap, exactly like you said, don't fly there. But I didn't believe it at the moment. And the funny thing is, I always say to them, yeah, flying into that lee, I'm telling you now, is stupid.
And then it pushes you down and then it lands and the cross-country flight is over. And I always say, now I'm showing you, but you'll probably still fly there because you don't believe me, because it doesn't look like that. And yeah, everyone has to make that experience for themselves somewhere. And then people land there and I often get messages saying, yeah, you were right. And in that moment it is, but that's exactly why paragliding is so hard, because it packs so many impressions into one. Along with wind direction, the position of the sun, thermal strength, and so on. It's just a lot at the beginning and a lot stays with you, in my opinion. Paragliding is demanding and there is so much to take in.
With these intense experiences you have during the X-Alps. You probably know a whole range of other flight instructors too. Would you say that you approach training differently with these experiences in the background?
Different approach to training? Well, of course, training provides us with the framework in which you can teach, so to speak.
And I don't think that I'm getting that much out of it now,
maybe I'll see a bit more of which conditions tend to change quickly. That's what you mainly learn with X-Alps. Like assessing weather that stays somewhat stable or changes very rapidly. You recognize that, you learn to recognize it better. And of course, also how to take advantage of a case like X-Alps.
But you learn to coach primarily when you also coach. So, I'd already done two X-Alps by the time I started coaching.
And that is definitely something new that you learn. You really learn so many new things about how to teach people. And you learn that many people learn differently and need different types of input. And that's why, when you're teaching, you're learning how to teach. And I might have a bit of an advantage because I know so many conditions, which allows me to explain well what's happening right now.
Do certain students actually come to you specifically because they say, I know, those two, Tommy and Simon, have already been involved with X-Alps. They have to be especially good teachers or something like that. So that they say, I want to somehow benefit as a student from this X-Alps bonus as well.
Yes, definitely. So, sometimes it's... we always ask at the beginning of the course, so let's say, every student. And the motivation for paragliding, it's always very important for us to know that and to ask ourselves. And we also always ask how many people know X-Alps and know us from X-Alps, for example. And there are courses where maybe, I'd say, out of 10, three people, three or four people know X-Alps. And then sometimes you know the whole course. So it's totally different. Some people really don't at all, they say, "Exactly. I've actually never, never heard of it. What is that?" Then we tell them what it is, exactly.
Well, X-Alps is also extreme flying at times, which you wouldn't necessarily teach. Or in training, you'd say, that has no place here. So how do you separate that for the people? Because they might say, I see you as a role model, the flight instructor. And they see very clearly, under what conditions—if they've watched you in some way—they see what conditions you flew in there. And then in training, you're constantly telling them you never fly in those kinds of conditions. Probably. Yes. You tell them that. How do you bring these two worlds together so that they can accept it from you? Because they do know, come on, he's telling me something right now that I'm not supposed to do, but he's doing it.
Exactly, right. It's a difficult topic and a hard one to approach. And it's something that really needs to be addressed, because otherwise there's so much uncertainty. We often compare it to professional sports. If you, for example, learn to drive from a very good driver or from a racing driver,
then you can't automatically put yourself in those situations like the driver. It just doesn't work. Or with skiing. If someone is learning to ski from a skier and you see them skiing down a steep face because they're very good at it or they participate in competitions there, that doesn't automatically mean you can do it. Or they go out in conditions where everyone else is saying, "Whoa, no, that's super dangerous." But they know the mountain, they know the snow conditions there, and they can basically pull their line down with a lot of knowledge they have. And we also explain a lot that... that at the beginning of paragliding, the most fundamentally important thing is choosing the right conditions.
Because if you end up in conditions that overwhelm you when paragliding, especially at the beginning, then you stop paragliding and it's dangerous, and you feel incredibly uncomfortable. And that's why we are very... very reserved when it comes to instruction, I'd say, because we don't take you into super strong thermals right at the start, because that makes no sense at all. And we really try—not just try, but we put a lot of emphasis on it—that we always use very calm conditions, the early morning hours and later in the evening, and during midday we really say, even if many people are flying now, this is hard for you, but it doesn't really achieve anything.
And it's often hard for students to understand. That's really how it is. But there's no way around it. And we also say very clearly, you see, you're going to see us fly in extreme conditions at the X-Hubs too. And that's a very narrow margin you move on there because it's very tight. It's right on the edge of what you can actually fly. And the question is often, okay, but how do you get there? How do you get to the point where you can use conditions so well or so many of them? And that
it's incredibly difficult to answer that question because, ultimately, it's a lot of flying. And it's something that either comes a bit naturally—that you can use more conditions and understand, above all, what I'm doing right now and where I am. For example, at the beginning, I didn't have anyone, not really a mentor or someone who would actually show me what works or what doesn't. I had to figure out a lot myself. So, really learning by doing? I had a lot of learning by doing. And I always listened very closely to a feeling inside me whenever I felt somehow unsure,
then I always went down to land because I just couldn't fly anymore. I have this internal shutdown when I get really scared or something, I just can't get past it. I can't. And of course, you could say, okay, but maybe I didn't even know that I was supposed to be scared.
It's something you only realize in hindsight. And that's why it certainly wasn't—it was very dangerous, how I, I'm saying now, "learned" to fly, so to speak.
But I must have somehow brought a talent for the glider with me. I was always able to keep it open properly, I never had any problems with the glider somehow. So I never had situations that were really, really, really on the edge or anything. Because I believe I probably would have stopped flying then.
But you did have, as you just said, situations where you were afraid and went down to land. Exactly, exactly, exactly. How did you manage to get past those situations again? I mean, the next flight didn't have to be the very next one, but that boundary where you say, okay, with my little experience, I might have been afraid at this point. Nowadays, you'd say, okay, my fear threshold, if I still have one, is in a completely different place than it might have been back then. But how did you do it? Especially when I, as a student of yours, come and ask, how can I do that? How did you manage to shift a fear threshold? Even if you felt it once and know that the fear can be there and it even forced you onto the ground. So why did you go flying again and say, I want to keep going?
For example, I knew, okay, I don't want to go any further. Okay. The conditions were too much and it was too strong, too much dynamic or too much wind. And for the situation I was in back then, and especially it always happened to me, I would really actively go down to land when I no longer understood what was happening. What's going on right now? If I didn't know what situation I was in and why it was like that right now? And it can also be that the situation was too good. It was just rising too well everywhere and you already thought, it's dangerous. Exactly, right.
I've had flights where there were really no clouds overhead. You keep climbing and climbing and climbing, and then you start thinking, okay, what's happening right now, why am I climbing so hard, and is this a wave or something, a foehn wave or what am I in? And did I overlook that in the forecast, for example, or what? I had really, really great respect for that kind of thing and would often just really try to figure out how to get down now, how to get down safely, is there wind down there, look for a wind-sheltered valley, and always try a bit to understand the wind, like from a river so to speak, or from water flowing through the valleys, and then with such
eddies of that kind and calm areas often
be able to decipher where you can land well, and that's why I've usually had good landing options. But that comes through understanding, especially by saying, okay, now this is going to happen there and that is going to happen there, and then you don't get a situation anymore—or mostly don't get a situation anymore—that you don't understand. And if you don't understand it at the outset and then say, okay, misjudged, it is happening after all, that means you have several models and several considerations of what can happen now, or how the weather might change there, or how the wind will behave in the next valley.
Yes, you build up experience and the reading
you just get better and better at reading wind, thermals, and clouds, and because of that, you understand more and don't have that urgent uncertainty anymore.
But when you said earlier that you basically didn't have a mentor you could model yourself after, or who could pass on knowledge through his experience and say, "Yeah, yeah, what you just experienced, I can explain what's going on there now, and then you can fly with this model next time, and if you experience it again, you'll know, ah, my mentor said it like this, I'll try that out now, ah yes, exactly, I can still fly safely here, or it'll definitely go up there, even if it's leh or whatever." What kind of situations were those? If you don't have a mentor now, how did you acquire this knowledge? Or is it just for you...
learned intuition, where you say this knowledge, wherever it is, it's inside me.
how I react now, but I can't put it into logical thoughts; I just say my gut says go or don't go, so we land. Mhm.
so I've spent a huge, huge amount of time on Google Earth and XContest doing flight analysis. I don't want to know how much time actually went into it, but I have so many track logs, weather forecasts, wind forecasts—whenever there were situations where I felt uncomfortable or went down to land, I analyzed those very intensely. What actually happened there? I tried to understand it and talked about it with friends. We were a group of three who started out, and we had a lot of exchange. We really sat down together regularly after flying, in front of our laptops, watched the videos and looked at what we did there.
Man, what kind of nonsense did we actually do there? Like, seeing it in hindsight on the GoPro, okay, ah, that's why I didn't level out there, because I just let the wind push me too far or something. And those are the kinds of things you often only really understand in hindsight when you actually watch the video, the objective video, what you really did, because often the flight itself is very emotional, and because of that, you might not even notice what you actually did, and then you see it really clearly in the video. I analyzed a lot of that myself, and in the friend group, and
always tried to understand what was happening, and that's how it was for us, or for me, because I was the only one among them who actually flew much further,
That's how I always tried to explain what happened there, and yeah, a lot of analysis, a whole lot of analysis.
Track logs, weather forecasts, videos
and of course input from other pilots, too—that's definitely been part of it, of course.
When you're teaching now, not just basic courses, but you're also doing performance training and other stuff where people are starting to fly thermals—sometimes when I'm watching people fly thermals from the ground, I can see many mistakes much faster from below, because you immediately see, "Ah, he should have held three meters more there and he didn't," and now of course he's fallen out of the back, and you already know that two circles before he actually does it; you've already seen it down there, but you can't see it in the air. Would you say as a flight instructor, the more you watch something like that, can you then... or can you also integrate that into your own flying so that in the air you know, "I'm watching myself from the outside now and I see exactly what stupid thing I'm doing here," and I give myself the radio call basically, like "Simon, hold a bit further forward" or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, it's funny, I talk to Domi about this often because, since we have students—especially when they're just starting out and have done 10 or 15 flights—it doesn't matter anymore if there are light thermals in there early on. We let them fly out, just fly out straight, and then we see, wow, it's rising there where we honestly never would have thought it would rise. So you learn a lot from the weather and from the thermals, it's super cool, and of course also when circling. It's really nice to see then,
how
how the thermals behave and how the glider reacts to them, and how some gliders behave when they fall out of the thermals again, and in terms of handling, how—I'm saying this now, ass-to-ass—how boldly does someone dare to circle into the thermals, how tight, without tilting the glider too much, and that's, it's so funny because thermal flying is actually something totally complex and you break it down into, yeah, you have to pull a bit more in the hand.
Move your right hand down about 15 meters and lean into it a bit more with your weight, and that should fix it, more or less.
It
it's just like, you see it, you see it and you actually have to develop some sort of clairvoyant abilities to say, okay, just keep going, just keep going, keep going, keep going and now turn in, and yeah, it's totally funny and I think you really take something away from it. So I can definitely learn something from it when I try to teach other people thermals again, and especially when it goes into the area where I'm doing individual coaching now and flying with people very specifically, there, you as an athlete also learn a lot again, because you think a lot about what you're actually doing yourself and why what I'm doing works so well.
Because you can only explain what you yourself have understood about your own performance.
Exactly, exactly, yeah. And that, I mean, often you can do something well and maybe don't even understand exactly why you can do it well, and when it comes to thermals flying, it's
difficult
to really tell someone, okay, I'm going to teach you thermals flying as best as I can. That's probably impossible, but of course, there are tricks and things you can teach, but then that last bit of feeling, I think everyone has to develop that themselves, yeah. It's like when you use the Max in Excel; when you fly together, it's insanely difficult to be above him. So, thermals-wise, it's grandiose, I find it beautiful, and he turns insanely well and very intuitively and beautifully. You just watch in awe. Yeah, it is, well, of course, it's still a thermals battle, and it's always beautiful to see how he then, ah, maybe holds on a bit longer there and you
you're really happy if you manage to get above him, but it doesn't happen that often.
But in the end, it's really funny, actually it's often just the top of the thermals where that difference happens—like, oh, he just recognized the bubble there and caught it, and because of that, he gained another 50 meters. And that's especially important for... well, I don't get much out of it with the Excel, but with the DWC, I think, or something like that, it's very decisive because it really comes down to the seconds.
works. When you talk like that, I get the impression that you see paragliding as a lot of things, especially as a learning field for yourself, like a constant learning field. Yes. From that mindset, I'd say, what drove you to the X-Alps?
What drove me to the X-Alps?
I think, above all
the adventure a bit, so to say, okay, you set out on a course and a route, a very wide, very long one, under completely different conditions, and that's actually how I've approached flying my entire life. I always wanted to see, okay, what conditions can be flown there or maybe, how does it work there, and I've stood on the mountain in high wind very often and just watched the wind and how the gusts behave and noticed, it's too much wind, leave the glider packed and don't even think about starting. I just watched it and tried to understand, okay, how do the gusts behave, what are the intervals, and so on. And at the X-Alps
it's like you also start there with a team. And the first time was,
Yeah, so "adventure" is really, yeah, the perfect description for it, it was a pure adventure. So that's the last X-Alps. So your first
You didn't participate in the X-Alps as a competitor, but as a supporter of Paul's. So, 2015 was as a supporter, and 2017 was your actual first X-Alps as a participant.
Exactly. So 2015 was, of course, wild. I had never been in the Western Alps. And I actually saw Mont Blanc for the first time while flying, yeah. So I started there with Paul from some very marginal launch sites, and then you turn up there and you know, okay, theoretically Mont Blanc is coming up now, and then you look—wow, you look up at the mountain once, you really look up at this white giant and just think, okay, wow. And yeah, there was a lot going on there, so what Paul also said was, wow, I flew lines there that I never would have believed would work,
because I didn't know the classic lines people fly there at all. And the classic lines sometimes didn't work at all because there were no conditions for them, but I really only looked at the conditions and saw what fit those conditions, without having a mental image of the route, a small XC route. So you had the Skyways
not in my head, but just the wind is blowing like this, okay, then over there. The wind is blowing like this,
Relief map, exactly, valley wind, supra-regional, and exactly, and my system, which I've just learned, so to speak, my perception of wind and thermals, and that fit there, and it worked well time and again.
Even though you'd never flown there before. I mean, you'd never been in such high-alpine terrain as that. You go to Graz, Schöckl—that's only 1,500 or whatever you have there, slightly flatter slopes, not quite as steep, and stuff like that. Towering rock covered in ice and things like that just don't exist there.
There's very little there, but we've already—well, we've flown to Ardent Holz a lot. So after about two years, one and a half, two years of flying, I think my first Ardent-Holz trip was my first one. And there, in terms of XC, I definitely—Berni Besl taught me so much, especially how to fly in Ardent-Holz. He was actually able to convey to me in an incredibly cool way how that works.
From that, I already knew a bit about how the high mountains work, but it still feels like something else there. It's higher and more extreme. But it worked really well, and I also remember well that last stretch to Monaco. We went from Barcelonette, that pass—one of the most famous passes, which you're actually not supposed to start from anymore if you're flying to Monaco because of the Mercantur National Park. But back then, in 2015, okay, no, the national park doesn't exist. So, yeah, I don't know. And you could fly towards Monaco from there.
and that was, yeah, I didn't have any other way, so of course you look at the whole thing on Google Earth beforehand, but in the end, when you're actually there, it's something completely different. And I was able to fly very freely there, so without too many,
I'm not saying I saw dangers; I mostly just saw possibilities. I saw, okay, ah, I could glide there, that gate could work there, like that. And I basically moved from thermals to thermals to thermals and actually flew with Paul for the last whole flight. And then there was a military base there, and I thought, wow, no, I'm definitely not flying through there. I have no idea, maybe Paul has clearance there and I certainly don't. So I landed just before it and first went around the corner there, and I think... my glider was half destroyed from the road, and we walked to the goal. Yeah, insane adventure. So that was my thought on X-Helps, and I've always loved adventure. I really love adventure.
So, venturing into the unknown a bit and solving the task as it comes. Because with X-Helps, we can't foresee what the conditions will be, what it will be like there, how it will be. You have to solve so much on the go. And that's often the definition of adventure, actually. Because you can't fully plan an adventure. And you can't fully plan X-Helps. It's not possible. But if you have experience, you can handle things well. That's why Kriegel is so good; he can plan incredibly well with his experience. Exactly, but for me, that's the essence of X-Helps—experiencing this adventure.
And especially at the beginning, it was like that. And after 2015, I knew I absolutely had to do it myself. That's when I started with my team...
go in. But you're sort of, you're already an X-Helps there, having flown with Paul, if you say as a supporter I was actually everywhere and flew on many flights in parallel. In parallel, yes, exactly. Paul became third at the time or something? Yes.
You might have even finished third back then. Really, is that so? That's difficult, difficult. I wouldn't say it technically, because picking out the planes you can fly and then doing it well is one thing. But actually doing the X-Helps completely yourself is something else entirely, because one small mistake is enough and then, on a good day, you're standing on the ground and the race is over for you; suddenly you're 50, 60 kilometers behind and it's insanely hard to make up any ground.
And you, if I'm being honest, have no racing pressure at all. So for me, it was basically okay, I just fly there and know that if the supporters aren't there or anything, I'll just get on the train and ride for a bit, or that usually works out fine and I'll have someone I can ride with, and then I can get into the car. But even then, standing there at the starting line is a completely different experience. That was much more intense, and for example, before my first X-Herbst, I broke my foot nine months before during a stupid landing, and because I really didn't know how a speed landing actually works and
I broke my foot there, really, really stupidly, and the doctors said, well, something like an X-Herbst, so I had to explain to them what that is. They were like, "Well, that's definitely not going to work." No, guaranteed not. So they could already tell then that it wouldn't work, then you say, "Okay, that's your opinion, but I'm going to try it, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but let's try it." And yeah, I met a lot of people who just helped me and said, "So much is possible and your body can do a lot." So every body can do a lot, it's not a fixed thing. So it's not a fixed thing, that's one thing, that you can participate, but you can train yourself for it and see how your body reacts, or especially your joint. And that was the X-Herbst with the most, so far from me, with the most kilometers on the ground. Those were
2017
or what year was that?
2017, yeah
This race started in the pouring rain and then went up the Geißberg in complete rain, and I didn't recognize the mountain at all; we sank into the mud on the way up. Even so, there were an insane amount of people at the top—it felt like, I don't know, very intense. And especially, you get a flag shoved into your hand up there and you run with it, and in the end, you're basically just running for two days, and then you really want to fly, and then you suddenly realize, okay, you're fully in the race now, and you realize how much a race like this pushes you—how it pushes you in a direction you might not even want to go, because it was a complete Föhn day and somehow everyone is flying there.
and they're standing there near the Köln-Rennsperre, that's Maltertal, and in a north foehn it's a very, very nasty valley, and I can see below, I mean I see everyone riding, I perceived all of that, but I decide to start there anyway, in actually a very unfavorable position, and try to fly out of the valley and realize there's no chance of flying out of the valley, especially because there are so many high-voltage lines crossing there, I have to face the wind and have to land in like a very narrow part of the valley, and land there on the road, safe, and it was doable, but I just knew, I knew in that moment it was just insanely stupid to fly there and I realized in what direction I was somehow pushing myself.
pushed, through the race, by seeing others fly, and then I thought to myself, okay, no, I don't want that, I don't want to put myself in that kind of situation, so I don't want to have fear while flying, and it was definitely like that, and I was actually totally disappointed in myself and thought, okay, I can actually stop now because what's the point of continuing? I mean, I don't want to hurt myself, I want to do this sport for as long as possible, and then I tend to go into it very dramatically now and
Fortunately, my girlfriend was there as a supporter and I said, hey
Come on down, let's just go for a walk now, okay? Let's just walk down the valley. It's really cozy down there. We even found some chanterelles and picked them, and then we walked down the valley like that. And then I checked the weather for tomorrow and it's like, "Tomorrow is a great flying day." I'm already getting excited about flying, and I was already at the 25th place or something, everyone was already finished, and I thought to myself, "Yeah, I'll just go flying tomorrow, I'll just go flying tomorrow," and then it works out, and we'll see. And I can only keep stopping because tomorrow is really a safe, good flying day and...
Then, at the end of the next day, I was suddenly in third place and I was like, you can just fully come back to my flying and my decisions, and not into anything driven by impulse. And even during that race, I kept noticing it over and over again: oh, I'm falling into that impulsive behavior again and I have to actively pull myself out. So, when you're doing the X-Alps for the first time, it can really be... yeah, it's very dangerous, so you really have to know yourself well, and your decisions—that's important.
A bit, like how you're describing it now, I'm just thinking of Maxime Pinot. He was at this X-Alps on the second day, or at the end of the second day, after that very strong Föhn day there where some people flew, and he just decided, I'm not flying. And at the end of the day, he also said, I'm getting out, which sparked huge discussions and a lot of applause on social media, while others wondered what that means now or something like that. What did you think when you heard that? Did you think back a bit to your situation in 2017?
did you feel like you were being reminded of your own situation, or something like that? Or did you also talk to Maxime about it and tell him how you dealt with it back then? No, I haven't...
haven't talked to him about it yet, but for example, it was the same launch site, so he was next to me, I started, he took a long time with the setup and was now... you could already tell, okay, he's not that motivated right now, so that's how I didn't know him during that race, normally he's fast, bam, he always plays the card of his physical fitness well, goes for it, moves fast, flies back in quickly, and there he was, he wasn't like I knew him, so he was already rather reserved and more like, wow, and I understood it very well, because I was actually also looking forward to the day
looked at him very respectfully, because I knew we were actually flying completely towards
now Reschensee, where the north foehn is just insanely strong and getting stronger, it wasn't predicted to be that strong for me at the beginning of the day, and I kept it open in my mind, what happens when we head towards Meran and
yes, I can decide, I think he did too, he started a bit later and then at the launch I think he had a collapse, that was a stupid launch site we had there where we had to turn from the milieu into the air, and I can understand that he says, also with background, I think that's what he wrote
because in the past there were... many accidents where he had a close relationship with, and I think he just saw, hey, I don't like this right now, and then he made exactly the right decision with that; he didn't want to expose himself to those conditions now, and if you don't want that, then
you can't just push past that because then you're not fully committed, and then it won't work, and I completely understand him, so I'd say, okay
respect, right decision
you didn't want that, and that's why it's always the right decision to say, no, I don't want to go through that right now. But I also don't think you can say, okay, because Maxim didn't want to, now nobody is allowed to. You can't define it like that; it's a personal...
Decision, that's very clear, exactly, exactly. But now that I've said, you can handle it in different ways. You said on that day, okay, I don't really want to fly anymore in 2017, and maybe I'll even give up, then you get the thing, come on, just go out for a bit, let's go look for some sponsors and then we'll see again tomorrow. And maybe it would have been good for Maxim too to say, I'll just run and see how much fun I still have from the back, and who knows, maybe I'll suddenly fly from 25th to 3rd again and say, yeah, I'm actually back in the race, and it was healthy for me, healthy, so mentally healthy not to fly, and now it's mentally healthy to realize, hey, I can still be right up there at the front. So the experience you had, he might have taken that, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Well, of course, you have to say that in 2017 I was in a different position to say that; maybe not as many people were watching what I was doing, and Maxim was, of course, the favorite for the race, so he was in a different situation. And as I said, unfortunately, I don't know—or I don't know his exact personal reasons—I just know that he's an incredibly good pilot, and yeah, and I have respect for the decision, and that's why...
Let's put Pino aside for a moment, we're on you now. What interests me is because you said this very briefly—I'll bring up the name Pino one more time, but then we'll set him aside—because you said Pino was the favorite and was probably under different pressure and under more scrutiny and all that. You said 2017, that was like my first time, you weren't really on the glider yet. Later you became more on the glider. Now, let's say this year, at your last X-Alps, where you finished third again, do you feel more pressure now when you participate in such a competition, or can you still say that you actually approach something like that relatively, still relatively uninhibited?
Yes
I have to approach it without prejudice, because that's the only way I'm good at it; I've learned that about myself. Yes, I mean, one thing is...
the realization that I have to be unbiased, but having to be unbiased is a difficulty in itself because if you tell your brain, "now be unbiased," the brain goes, "what should I do?" and is immediately biased. So how do you manage to stay unbiased?
Yeah
That's a very good question, and it's incredibly difficult, especially at the beginning of the X-Alps.
getting into the race and once you're in and it's going well and you're there, you can establish yourself well in front of a field and then fly your own line and choose your line, which I think you can do very well, especially if you're not right at the very front, or well, if you are right at the very front, you can do it very well, right? Because then you have no one dictating anything, so you can fly your line very well, and then again, it might be difficult if you're just a little bit behind to make other decisions, it's not that easy at all, unless you see that the front line isn't working, then it's simple.
How do you approach an X-Alps without any preconceived notions? I've always done it by saying my goal is to reach the finish line as quickly as possible for me—I just want to make good decisions and the rest follows. Of course, it becomes very difficult if you make bad decisions or fall back, which can happen again and again in an X-Alps. But because I know how—and I learned this so strongly during my first X-Alps—how dynamic a race like this can be. That was maybe a bit different in 2017; nowadays, it's very difficult if you're that far back. It works at the beginning to jump ahead again, but after 3 or 4 days...
no chance anymore, actually. Also because the
The course is so precisely defined and you have so many landing points where you really have to go down into the valley and then climb back up again, so you can't just do two super flights from place 25 and fly back out to the front with everyone asking how he found the line, because the line is much more strictly defined now.
Exactly, exactly, it's very strictly defined and it feels more like stages, just because of the turnpoints, because they take the pace out for a moment and that actually limits the progress for the day very significantly, exactly. So for me, it's still about getting to the finish because that's just incredibly beautiful, but now it's totally funny because we had a real professional videographer with us for the first time at the X-Alps, who filmed all of that and also a lot of the supporters and how they're feeling, and I've actually always thought, yeah, they're on the same wavelength as me and that fits, and then I've fallen back a bit again and that's okay, that's
I have to... I can catch up again, and I just want to find a fast line and orient myself by me, not by them, and I was actually able to do that much better than my participants, at least, because they were so freaking out about the live tracking and all that, oh shit.
and they were frustrated, if you were trailing behind, roughly?
Yeah exactly, but I only saw that in the videos and they didn't really let me feel it at all, and they actually always did that very well and it was always a good feeling when they were there and they were always happy and I had this year a
had a really, really cool team; it was very similar to how it had been before, but there were two new people who fit in great and we had a really cool time, I think, even though there was a lot—I mean, a lot—so the first night was actually a worst-case scenario, you couldn't imagine it being any worse for the team. We were there on a meadow up in the Dolomites and everyone goes to sleep, and after three hours, right in the middle of the night, I notice a bus door opening and closing, and ten seconds later...
someone throws up, but like, everything comes out for half an hour, yeah, completely. It happened so wildly that I thought, wow, someone must have gotten hit by something, and then the thought comes, hey, what if it's me? And I push open the hatch of the support vehicle because I'm sleeping in the roof tent and look down and see, oh, one of my supporters, my physio, isn't there, and the other supporter looks at me and says, shit, and I'm like, shit.
It somehow happened that I didn't get it, or was it a stomach intolerance? In any case, for the first three days I had a very battered physio, but he pushed through it, and by the end of the race, he was going everywhere with me again—well, actually by the middle of the race. He was able to go everywhere fine and was fully fit again; I think even on the third or fourth day at the start, he was already fully involved again. And that also hit my main supporter a bit; he was also very, very battered for two or three days, but somehow we were able to manage that completely as a team, especially because it also flew so well, which makes it easier.
I want to jump back to the topic of risk, and specifically with the example we just talked about—that second day, the Föhn day—I think you were last...
I mean, if I followed it correctly, you were even in the lead at one point, you were the first one to land in Meran, or something like that, is that right? After that. I only have a picture, well, not a picture, but I saw a video that supposedly showed you, but as far as I know, you were also on a flight into the valley where it actually just tossed you up and down quite a bit, where you had to fight to hold onto this glider, set it up, pull it up, fold it sideways, slightly catch the slope again, and all that.
What goes through your head in a situation like that? Does anything actually go through your head, or are you so in a tunnel that you're just a flying machine? Yes,
Flying machine. That's a good definition. What goes through your head? I mean, I can trace it back exactly: we were sorting along there, or let's put it this way, I was maybe—I had it after that start there, it was such a steep slope from the Föhn wind, it went up beautifully once, and Griegl and Christian Schuck were ahead, they started about 10 minutes before me, and I saw what they were doing, it's very hard to gain altitude. And I realized, okay, there's not enough wind up there for us to just sort our way there and fly up towards the Finschgau like it's nothing, but that it's going to be difficult now. And then I also see them kind of going into race mode and forward, and okay, nothing's going well there and further, and then nothing's going well again and further.
And I think to myself, no, no, no, that's wrong. You could see that really well, and exactly, it's not going to work. They left an insane amount of time in a thermal, so maybe climbing at half a meter per minute at times, briefly, really like a zero-slider exit, where I knew, okay, it only helps if you get up, then we'll sort it out there. And I managed that, kept sorting there, and then I noticed, okay, now we're getting closer towards Finschgau and the orientation of the... there's a small valley jump there, or relatively large, and the orientation of the ridge won't be optimal, but there's not much wind up there anyway. So I flew there with the trim, sometimes 30, 35 km/h and super gliding, really good glide time.
And suddenly you realize, especially while talking to my supporters and all, like, wow, maybe I'll bank around that corner and then I can keep sorting, it's actually going really well and it's working very well right now. And then it's a bit like flying against a wall, like against some imaginary... okay, or a drag strip, you could imagine it like an infinite
...drag strip from Mario Kart. There are the acceleration strips, the drag strips, and that was an infinite drag strip, and suddenly you realize, wow, it's roll over roll, it's actually moving forward, but it's insanely turbulent and okay, so then I really tried for a long time to get around this corner and then I realized, okay, well, it's not happening. So I can't, I can't get over it and possibly the only thing now, the wind won't get any less down in the valley, if anything more, and I ended up staying a bit on the slope there and tried to just slowly get out into the valley and realized, it's actually much more turbulent on the slope because the
pushed down and in the end, those are the considerations that go through, so for me, it was full focus; I knew it was a very demanding situation, 100% focus on where I am, where I can go, what my options are, and I had all that under—so, felt as it were, exactly what I expected happened. It was hard, it was hard, to keep the glider open, to have it, and then during the landing, it was much calmer than this video shows; it was just that very turbulent phase that the valley captured, and then I landed there in a really—I had a super large meadow and landed there.
The wind wasn't even that strong for me yet; it just broke through massively at that moment, and then others were behind me. Everyone thought, "Oh okay, maybe Simon made some mistake during the approach." Everyone was saying, "Oh, I'll try too, I'll try too," so even with Domi, they were all still together and they all flew into this wall, so to speak, and landed, and they all got less and less distance, which means the wind was actually getting stronger. You even had a relatively favorable...
I actually had a situation where it was just easy.
Others were blown back up to five kilometers until they finally hit the ground, because they—and even with Domi, the supporters said, "Well, I'll land in that side valley, there's less wind there and it'll carry me out," and he thinks to himself, "Wow, you guys have a thousand meters of altitude, I can just glide out of here," which was all very nice, so he tried to glide out and the wind just pushed everything back again. But for Damien and everyone else, nobody had a good time that day; it was just barely a manageable situation. For me, I don't know how it was for the others, but they managed, so to speak, but
it's a situation where I'd expected a lot of wind, but of course not that much, because then he probably would have tried,
The situation was that the options were very limited, because landing on the slope above wouldn't get you anywhere, because the slope was actually much more turbulent than in the valley below. They then consciously decided for it, because if the slope had looked a bit more comfortable—which was my first option, okay, maybe there's a bit less on the slope—then they noticed what the trees on the slope looked like, that's not an option at all, and then down below, fortunately, it was a bit less compression-wise and I was able to land there very safely. But
do you ever have thoughts like, even during the flight, like "hopefully I'll make it down safely," or do those thoughts not exist at all because you're so focused that you just say, "yeah, flight machine"?
Yeah, well, I think there's no room for that, because that would actually be pure doubting—like, hopefully I can do this now, hopefully I can do this—I do have that with, hopefully I can get the thermals going and so on, hopefully 1900 meters and then hopefully I'll glide over the pass, but in that moment, there's actually no room for that; you're 100% focused, you're 100% in it. Where
is your adrenaline level then when you've landed? Beyond the ridge, roughly? I'm actually
relatively calm after landing something like that, because I know that was...
that was a high risk, it all went well, but I usually stay very calm and try to go through the situation again, what exactly happened, what were the decisions that led to that, and
exactly, and then you're actually already like, okay, we're going on, yeah, and then you go... and at the beginning, I also consciously went a bit alone, Paul accompanied me for a bit and did his jokes and fed his, his, his, his Instagram, which he does very well, and it was just so cool that he was there and I was actually really happy about it, so he was totally here and had snacks with him and walked a bit with me, that was totally cool and he knows exactly what it's like there, yeah. That
Running also helps you come down again, so to some extent, to come down from the mountain, but also to really calm down, neurologically speaking, so that you can say, okay, I'm back to myself now. Yes. I mean, I was "with myself" before too because I was so focused, but now I can open up to the normal world again and say I'm standing on both feet again.
Yeah, and it's also something very simple compared to what came before, so to say. I mean, when you run, yeah, that's something you can train very well and it's very manageable in terms of what it's like for the body, and that's why you just feel happy because it's something very monotonous and simple, and it was super cool to run then, and I liked it. It wasn't like, oh, I've been washed down from 3,000 meters and shit, now I have to run, but rather, okay, good, I need that now anyway because I need a bit of relaxation and the race is just long, and that was super intense, and coming down and gathering energy for the next few days, because a lot more is decided there than on a day like that, because whether you glide another 10 kilometers or what, that makes no difference at all because the next day is on the plane, and everything gets completely mixed up again, everyone who
until you get to Maran, it's basically the same position, yeah.
You're right in the middle of the race and you experience it so intensely, then there are the people watching it all from the outside and writing social media comments or something like that. Do you actually get anything out of that during the race? Like, do you ever notice things like, well, there are words like, "oh, those are the gladiators of XI," meaning Red Bull, or something like that? Does anything like that from the outside reach you at all, or are you so shielded? Not necessarily consciously shielded from others, but do you enter such a racing mode that you say, I hardly notice any of that, unless a Paltackatz happens to cross my path and asks me three questions for his Insta account.
So, for me, it was like I actually don't look at social media much during a race, or rather, maybe almost nothing at all, like, "what did they post about me?" or something like that, just a little bit. And in that case, I only talked to my supporters and heard, "Oh, did you see the video they made of Simon?" And I was like, "What? What's going on?" And he was like, "Okay." And then I thought, "No, I have to watch that now." Then I watched the video and saw how many hundreds of comments were there or whatever. And I thought, "Do I click on that now or do I not click on that?" And then I somehow clicked on it because I was interested. And it was a total mistake to click on it. It was because so many people I knew somehow then jumped on that wave...
commented on it and jumped on the bandwagon, and I thought, wow, okay, away with it then. It was in the evening, just before going to sleep, and then of course it's all over your feed and
then you just try to deal with it. And then you go through your steps. What did you do? How did you feel? And in the end, I was at peace with myself.
So, those were insanely challenging conditions. But I'm not
I haven't entered a mode or a situation that I've never had before. I mean, from such a wall of Föhn—I know what it feels like because I've done many high-level hike-and-fly races where you constantly run into situations where you get caught in the wind, whether it's a valley wind or a Föhn wind, where you hit a corridor you can't get out of, and you know you have to land right there. And in that situation, I didn't feel overwhelmed. And on the video, it looks completely different from how I actually felt. Somehow, people will naturally jump the gun on how he must have felt. And he was totally at his limit and it was unbelievable. And then you start to doubt it a bit too, because sometimes it's people you know.
The doubts start to creep in then.
You see your own footage and say, oh shit, not much was actually missing, so not much was missing, but in that moment you say, actually a lot was missing, because I was so into it, I knew exactly what was happening. So you were the aircraft that was functioning perfectly at that moment, actively flying and all that. And someone from the outside can't imagine your situation at all, but if you look at it from the outside again now, you can imagine the outside person's situation and then, of course, say something completely absurd about what Simon managed to fly into. Why is he...
why did it just take off? Exactly, it's a difficult situation. And that's why it's totally stupid to be looking at social media, because you're in your own race and not in someone else's race or someone who's writing a comment or something; you're doing the race yourself, you're making every decision there yourself and
that's why I thought, hey, I'll do the race and then I'll put that away, and then the next time I was on social media, I was just about to head to Mont Blanc
via the via ferrata, where I walked a bit with my videographer and he said, hey, have you seen the last video yet? And I was like, no, I haven't looked at it in ages, just because it completely blew my mind, and he goes, ah, take a look, I've edited that, and I watch what he's edited and just think to myself, wow, really like, wow, amazing work, really cool, mega, and I was so happy. And then I watched the videos that my account supposedly posts, and I really liked them and they motivated me, and after that, the conditions were just really... well, we had grandiosely good flying conditions after that. So it was sensational for flying.
Are there things about the X-Alps that, from your perspective, aren't talked about enough or aren't perceived enough? The
...not noticed enough? Yes, what is being noticed?
Yeah, definitely. I think after the X-Alps, so many brilliant decisions are made and...
...good routes were flown for the weather, which maybe isn't that well known, that you can do that there, and that often happens a lot in the back of the field too, and you don't actually see what cool routes are being flown, because I know it, because at the beginning, during my first two X-Alps, I was at the end of the race, trying to catch up, if I tried to save a lot of strength, I saw that a bit from Paul too, at the end you need strength again, because everyone runs out of strength there, you can all catch up again. That's something I definitely learned very well from him, and we flew some really cool routes at times and somehow nobody cared, because
The Swiss just seem to look forward at what's happening there. That's just how races are, unfortunately.
Yeah, you mentioned that at the beginning of your flying career, you watched a lot of Google Earth and looked at all the flights, trying to analyze them and stuff like that. If you say that for the X-Alps itself, because they fly so extremely and routes sometimes have to be tested just to keep moving, do you also use something like that now? Like, in the winter, when you say it's not flyable or something, do you say, "Hey, watch this, I'm going to look at all the flights from the X-Alps 2025 stragglers and see what they actually managed to fly together?" So, do you still do that kind of follow-up to see what you can learn from it?
Yeah, totally. I really enjoy going back through all those tracklogs and trying to find something interesting or see what worked where. I love looking at the tracklogs on Google Earth; it's almost a passion. It's quite telling, and you can see a lot from a tracklog—how someone flew—if you know the conditions at the time. So, naturally, I also look at what was flown at the very front, because you don't get a sense of how the people behind you are flying during the race. Especially not exactly how they fly, maybe just a rough outline. And you can learn a lot from that again about what still worked, because you know the conditions.
And then you look at how it was normal, going further back. And if you go further back, then it's actually like, as if there were
...worse pilots or whatever out there, which is not the case at all here. And you learn a lot about what works and where. So, the debriefing is a big thing for me. And that usually happens sort of on the side. I'll pull up the track log again and look at it. It was great, spent a whole evening going through it and yeah.
What's special about your flying style, where would you say someone else could learn something from you? So, what are you proud of? Where do you say, "Hey, I'm really good at this"? And if people look at my tracks, they can maybe actually take something away from them. Where they say, "I learned something from Simon."
I think that's maybe a bit of
a bit of that
cheat a little and
maybe stay flying. If everyone else is already heading down to land somewhere and
then, I always tried to fly for as long as possible. I mean, to stay in the air. And to still find thermals there and maybe sometimes take detours to stay aloft. Even if it means, if it doesn't work out, that you might have to keep going. So I really like to give it a chance if a line feels good to me. I really like to give it a chance. But you have to learn because often that might not be the logical line. But if you look at a line and it feels good and you think to yourself, wow, I'd actually like to know if that works. Then you have to give in a bit and say, yeah cool, let's try that out. And at the beginning, I flew a lot like that, stood on the ground a lot.
Because the intuition for it just wasn't really there yet. But I've done it from the very beginning, like, I'd often stand on the ground because I thought, wow, I'd really like to fly that or try that. And then there was a time when I completely moved away from that because I was so focused on flying efficiently and faster, faster, faster. And then I looked back at those long, wide stretches I flew at the beginning, where the first 200s came. Where I actually flew through them very intuitively and very, very fast. And I left a lot of thermals behind and really didn't have the X-Half style at all, but rather the competition style, because
I'd say it was learned somewhat through experience, for starters, because you're flying fast. Because you're flying so many detours, you have to fly very fast there. And yeah, it's probably staying in the air. And trying to turn out the thermals and finding them in places where it might not be 100% obvious that something is going up.
How do you get, or how does that good feeling for a line develop? Have you ever thought about it like, "I'm a student pilot with you, let me ask the experienced one, can you tell me, have you figured this out enough to pass anything on to me?" Or is it really just I see clouds, I see wind, I see whatever, birds up there rising or something, and it all aggregates so that my gut feeling says the line is good. For whatever reason.
Yes, I understand the question. Only the answer is difficult. I just know the answer is difficult. Because,
because it's often the case that sometimes it works, it's hard to explain exactly why I see it that way right now, but very often the opportunity to try it is missing. Because sometimes you're standing on the ground and say, ah, that and there, and now I could imagine that it works in that direction and so on. And then it's often the case that you try to pass that on, you try to convey a lot, especially during the cross-country flight courses, where I say, okay, I see that now. But I always add to that, it's no guarantee at all that it works that way, because it often doesn't work for me either. But if it doesn't work, then I would still have this option.
Then you could go over there. And probably a line often looks good to me too, if I still have a safety net somewhere subconsciously. And I'd say, ah, okay, but that's almost a hundred percent sure to work. And that way I could get myself out of this situation again, if the line hadn't worked, so to speak. And stay flying and keep flying again. And I had such a situation at X-Büro, an insanely intense situation, where I couldn't get out of a ditch. And I was stuck right there for about two hours, I think, and kept trying to move forward against the valley wind, trying to step and reposition, and lost the thermal again.
And back and forth and back and forth. I've basically painted that whole place with track-log colors. So for me, I didn't even know anymore where I was just now. And I thought to myself, I often approach it like this, I try to keep going on the slopes, I approach it like this, it's a mystery now. It's a mystery for me right now and there's some solution. There is, mostly there is a solution. And there, in that case, it was completely crazy. So how that little bubble caught a bit more and then I saw, first got a picture of the topology and realized, ah, that's a wide plateau and the wind is blowing onto the plateau, why don't I just land on the plateau and kite with the wind until
to the valley where I can fly down again. So, hey, that's the solution. And I land up there, hike up about 100 meters, and kite over a plateau with the glider, about an hour before sunset. Truly the golden hour. It sounds so cheesy, but there are actually like three wild white horses next to me. Completely crazy. And I keep kiting there and think to myself, okay,
crazy, kite up such a mountain and start heading down from there, gliding out of the valley for another 20 kilometers, and because of that, I'm straight into fourth place at Mixed Bureau. And those are the situations where I think, oh,
I'm glad that I keep going like that, like, okay, there's still some possibility out there and I just don't see it at the moment. And that might be what I like so much about flying, that there are so many possibilities and situations and you have to find them.
only then. So on one hand, you have to approach it playfully, you have to have a bit of imagination, but, if I understand that correctly, you also have to be incredibly patient.
Yes. Definitely. And very
many pilots I know, well, many probably fail very often because of their own impatience. Definitely, yes. Do you have this patience, is it basically in your DNA or have you trained it? And if so, how can one train patience?
I think I probably have a bit of natural resilience, so I can push through these situations and try again and again and again, because maybe I believe in it a little. Especially in the air, it's very little physical effort, but mostly mental. And that's hard. You just mustn't tell yourself, okay, this isn't hard at all and I'll just stay, because then you'll crash anyway, because staying in the air was already very hard in that moment. That means it's, yeah,
I think you can definitely train it by, in the moment the situation arises, dialing back the expectation very strongly. Like, saying, "That's okay too, because what's it actually about?" Yes, this is okay, so it won't be the 300km cross-country flight or whatever it was supposed to be. And in Hike-and-Fly races, it's always like, "Okay, but turn around one more time," which makes a huge difference. But sometimes I'm the type to bring too much patience into it, and the faster option would very often have been, "Okay, land, hike up, keep flying."
And that's where it all gets complicated again, because I want to understand the thermals there and I want to try to get up, and then I spend way too much time on the slope when I could have actually just landed, gone up, and continued flying.
But at least you might know better next time. I mean, what does "better" mean? It's when you're in a different situation where maybe exactly this experience, or what you tried out and what you've imprinted into your muscle memory or whatever, into your very deepest glute muscles, where you say, "I feel it now, it's pulling me somehow, it has to go up on that corner ahead." Yeah, you have to go through that experience. And then store it somewhere so you can retrieve it next time. I think that a lot too. I've
I learned something again, it doesn't work. Exactly, yeah. And then you can actually process that pretty well because you take the learning effect from it. And that was, so the situation I'm mentioning for example, was just before the Bernhardpass towards Ledersalps, where I suddenly had a real 40, 50 kilometer deficit to the leaders. And deep down in a valley was the,
I don't even remember the name anymore, there's a huge ski area back there and a village at half-height, 2,000 meters—so half-height is already quite high up into the ski area. And you think, wow, heading out of the valley is kind of stupid because then I'd have to walk a long way, and I'm up here now and I can make much better use of it tomorrow. And then I saw that Damien—the neighbor—is coming and he's doing the G-variant a bit, and then you start thinking about it a little. And then the supporters say, yeah, they'll be there in three hours, because that's forever far, because they've been waiting at the slope where I tried for ages.
Shit, okay. And then stuff like that happens—I mean, I saw someone land there by the lake, and he came over in his car and said, "Cool, I'm Simon, hi, can I do anything for you?" And I was like, "Yeah, actually I'm starving." And he was like, "Hey, no problem," drove down to the valley to his apartment, and brought his wife with him, who was heavily pregnant.
...and a homemade quiche to drink and snacks. And I can lie down in his car and just chill there, and he takes full care of me. It's so cool, France is really laid-back. The lifestyle is very different. Just like Switzerland. You can really notice that very, very strongly.
These are these very personal, very human experiences you have. On the other hand, it's also a race and of course you want to win, or at least, it also plays a role that you say, I want to get on the podium too, you made it too, but only third. What would you say, would anything change in your life if you were to win the X-Alps once?
Hmm. I don't think so, probably not. Or maybe it would affect your motivation. So that would be
maybe something where you'd say, maybe the motivation to participate in the X-Alps would decrease? So, this thing, I've only ever been fifth, third, sixth, third again, sixth, third again or something like that, so that's a motivation to say, I want to, but actually I do want to be first once, so I'll sign up again in two years.
And if you were to win it now, the question would be bigger: maybe I shouldn't even participate again, since I've actually achieved all the goals I could have reached there.
No, I don't think so. Because with the X-Alps, it's not like I have the goal of winning the X-Alps. That's not the point, so to speak.
But it's the thing of doing the race at all. And it's new and so complex every single time, and never the same,
that I find this challenge, which is what it actually is, very good because it's very self-determined in that format. And of course, you can argue about how the route is set up with the via ferratas, maybe not very goal-oriented. But no, I believe,
the motivation for the X-Alps won't just change because I say, okay, wow, I'm standing way up there, finished.
No, I don't think so. It would still be there. And it was funny how, the first time I came in third and was standing up there for about a minute, it's always very close for me to get second place.
One minute. I was just here in this
Year, what was it, five seconds, 13 something? 16. I think 16, yeah. And
especially, yeah, I even flew higher than Lars, but he did it very well, he flew ahead and kept his distance well, and then I had to accelerate fully to catch up to him and actually lost a bit because of that. So the harness really made a big difference in that case. You could really feel it. So the harness being fully covered like that really makes a difference.
But when I landed up there back in 2021, right behind Patrick, someone said, "Now you can stop, right? Third, that's it, right?" So, on top and that's it. And I thought, hm, interesting view. And I really had that in the back of my mind and thought, do I want to say, okay, now I'm this high up and now it fits, now I can sort of leave it like that and it looks really cool. And then I thought, well, actually that's not the main reason at all, the relationship isn't the main reason why I participate, but rather because of this adventure and especially with the others, with the team and also with the other athletes, competing there like that—that's just something I really enjoy doing.
So I still really enjoy doing it.
Well, this is also a very, very special time you have, these two weeks. The X-Alps and probably also the preparation, but it all culminates in these X-Alps. What would you say, what can you take away as a lesson or something from such an extreme competition like the X-Alps, or as an insight that works for your normal life, where you say, hey, the X-Alps really helped me move forward in some way?
A lot. A whole lot. Above all, it's a bit of trust in life—now, that doesn't mean you can do anything and everything will be fine, but rather that you will find your way. Paragliding itself has shown me that very, very well, and I can often draw parallels between paragliding and life; there are always such beautiful
parallels visible and
I think, overall, it's paragliding that has taught me so much for life and taught me so much. And
yeah, that's why, and it just gives me so much, so to speak, and the beauty of it is being able to give that back through the schools, giving other people this opportunity, but also showing at the same time, okay, not everyone has to do it so extremely, but it's such a beautiful sport and I still have these simple flights, in the evening on the local mountain, on our Schöckl, just gliding down, is still something I love doing incredibly much. It's such a real fulfillment for me when I can head out there, then unpack, and unpack it quickly, because, ah, sunset in the forest and that...
is still a miracle for me, it's wonderful. And that's why, I mean, all of paragliding has mainly taught me trust,
to have and the courage to follow its
path or let's say, to go his way or just to find it, and with paragliding, that was totally uncertain for me at the beginning to say, okay, I'm deciding on paragliding now, so it all seemed so easy for you and then, yeah okay, then I just did paragliding. Of course, a lot of things come up, and also existential fears, like can I somehow make a living from this? Or is this all total nonsense and in the end, it's total nonsense to get too deep into that kind of thinking, but if you find something you really love and then you're allowed to pursue it, and then you should pursue it, and then a way to do it well will usually emerge and
That's why I say, okay, if you find something, a passion, you absolutely have to pursue it. I think that's one of the most important things I've learned through paragliding.
That's a very nice closing statement. But I have one more question. Have you ever felt fed up with flying as well?
Yeah, after the X-Hubs, it's like you actually say for a while, okay, that was so intense, that was also draining, and you really notice that right now it's just too much. I don't want to fly at all. I want to sit on my road bike, and I just spent a week on vacation in Southern France where Fabi Puhl flew 300 kilometers FAI. I rode up the Galipier-Bas on my road bike and then I thought, I'm enjoying this way more right now. And now this feeling of, I kind of want to fly again, is coming back.
So it's coming back full force again. And I think you have to give them the space to say, okay, now it's too much, and you shouldn't overwhelm them like that. So, for example, when Lars went straight onto the Eiger tour right under Kriegel, I honestly wouldn't have really felt like doing that. Alright, Simon.
Thank you so much for what has now become one of the longest podcasts I've ever recorded. It's not the longest, but it has become one of the longer ones. But it's super, super interesting. Thank you so much for your story. I think many people will find one idea or a point of connection for themselves where they'll say, "I can think further in that direction," or "Oh, I understand that a bit better now," or "So that's what he experienced." So, thank you very much. It was also told beautifully. Please, you're very welcome. Keep flying like that, and I think everyone will continue to follow with enthusiasm when you're at the next X-Alpen. I think I've heard from so many people now who always say "secret favorite" or mention who they all wish would win—who do you think? I think everyone would say, "Yes, he's finally earned it." So, I'm curious to see if you'll participate again in two years.
I'll assume so, and then we'll all keep our fingers crossed.
Thank you so much, Lucien. And I really have to say at this point, the questions, the positions, and the setup are beautiful and brilliant. And this is a very, very cool podcast. Thank you so much for the great preparation on your part as well. You can really tell. The questions were brilliant. And that naturally allows for a completely different kind of storytelling. And thank you very much for that.
That was Simon Oberrauner. If you enjoyed the episode and want to hear more interesting stories from the world of paragliding, then please become a supporter of Podz-Glidz and the Gleitschirm-Blog Looglights. You can find the support page at looglights.blogspot.com. There you will find all the necessary information and links to support me financially. As a freelance journalist, I put a lot of time, work, and also costs into these projects. In order for me to continue doing this so professionally, ad-free, and independently, I need your support. You are free to choose how much you want to give as a supporter. If you are unsure and need a suggestion, my non-binding proposal is 60 euros a year.
I want to thank all the supporters. See you soon. Stay healthy and enjoy the freedom. Ciao. Your Lucian.