We live in a world where we constantly have to challenge ourselves. We have to be better, always have more performance, sell more, make more profit, more and more. And we take those exact same principles and apply them to our favorite hobby, where freedom is what matters most, and turn it into a competitive sport. That means we're already limiting ourselves while flying by saying it's only fun if I'm first, or at least second, or at least in the top ten. It's more of a restriction when I only think in this mode of higher, faster, further. And to break down these limitations, I believe women's flying definitely helps.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the planet. In the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Jutta Reiser. And I am Lucian Haas.
If you look at the launch sites in Germany, Switzerland, or Austria, it quickly becomes clear that the paragliding scene is dominated by men. Women are a minority. At the DRV, for example, the proportion of women among members is still only 13 percent. That is significantly less than in other alpine sports. If you ask women like Jutta Reiser why that is, a decisive part of the answer is: the world of paragliding is heavily shaped by male thought and behavior patterns. Many women don't feel that comfortable in that environment. They lack like-minded people with whom they can share and maintain a less performance-oriented, but more emotion-oriented approach to flying.
56-year-old Jutta Reiser is a flight instructor. And the chairwoman of the club Flugliebe, which she co-founded. This club aims to promote aviation sports for women, among other things, by showing pilots how they can network. One idea is that if women sometimes go flying only with other women, an energy can emerge that ultimately benefits the entire paragliding scene. If you might be a male podcast listener and are already thinking about switching off this episode 175 of PODCAST, just wait and stay tuned. It's worth hearing an inside look like this—a pilot's perspective.
Some of the female thought and behavior patterns might be exactly what we ourselves would like to maintain at the launch and landing field sometimes, but don't dare to admit it.
I can only present these kinds of special conversations to you in the PODCAST because there are sponsors who financially support my work on the podcast and blog. Join in too. You can find all the necessary information about this on the Lu-Glidz Gleitschirm-Blog, specifically on the Förder page.
Jutta, do women fly differently?
Yes, mostly. But, yeah, they fly differently. Yes, women fly differently. Often.
Actually, of course not. They have smaller gliders, you all know that, they are usually lighter, they handle emotions differently. They feel more conscious to me when experiencing the whole of what we do. They are less focused on competition and performance measurement. They are a little bit less brave and a little bit less self-confident more often. Everything I say is a tendency and not a rule. They are more communicative.
And yes,
that, I would say, is all different for women.
Now we have a lot of very, very different points to cover. We could actually go through all of them. Why are women different from men when it comes to flying?
Why? Oh, we could do a whole long podcast about that right now. Please. Yes, we are socialized differently, certainly still. There are many studies showing that women communicate differently. Exactly. As men, that's an essential point—we are all socialized to care more, to be more safety-conscious and less risk-tolerant. I believe that's a matter of socialization that we haven't unlearned yet.
Well, flying is an individual sport, at least in the minds of most people. You might go up the mountain with others, but in the air, everyone is on their own, experiencing their own experience, their freedom, their feelings, their fear, their joy, whatever it may be.
Are women still different from men in the air?
I haven't been in a man's shoes yet. I'd find it very interesting to be a man as a pilot for a day, with a larger glider and, yeah, with the decisions. With the corresponding feelings, just to swap places for once, that would be cool. I find the idea interesting. Are women different? I can really only speak for myself. There are days when I can deal with turbulence in the air and keep flying, and there are days when I can't. And Bindesmäuschen can admit that too—not today, it's twitching too much for me. I think men are learning that much more at the moment.
But also to say, yes, I have emotions in the air too, I perceive them and I acknowledge them. I think we're on a path where men are also learning this and maybe communicating it more than 15 years ago. I believe they have these feelings too, but that men are also socialized and have feelings. It's happened to me many times that at the landing field, some pilot spoke to me and told me what terrible thing he had just experienced, really bad collapse stories and all that. And then the colleagues join in and suddenly the tone changes completely. And I've been very surprised by that quite often and sometimes I even say so.
You just told me that you're glad to be on the ground, that you're still alive, and now you're sending your colleagues up the mountain. Something isn't right. That almost makes me a bit angry. But being able to admit that. Because I felt uncharacteristically comfortable. I was afraid. I was even afraid for my life. Women can do that faster here. Of course, I can imagine the sensations are similar in the air afterwards. That's a question of experience. If I have 20 years of flying experience and know that a collapse won't take me out of the sky, then while it does increase the pulse, it won't fundamentally change anything. If I'm a rookie and it doesn't matter if I'm a man or a woman, and I'm experiencing a collapse in the wild for the first time,
then my pulse will be correspondingly high and hopefully I'll be scared too, otherwise something would go wrong.
Now you're a woman, but can you imagine why a man who just told you he was scared for his life, and then other men join in and maybe it was a heroic feat he just accomplished with his collapse, and now he's just standing on the ground. Wow. Yeah, now we're going up again and throwing ourselves back into those turbulent air masses. Can you imagine why that switch happens?
Yes, I think a lot of it in our sport is about recognition
...our performance, our heroic performance. It's a lot about recognition. Yes, I think many of our flying men are also very conscious of that. And that's why we also have...
Yes, we make comparisons and fly in competitions, which I personally—I don't want to deny this—sometimes like to do, every now and then.
But we measure ourselves against each other, that's something human, but it's about recognition in a group of men. And it's still a male society that rewards someone for being brave and overcoming dangers.
Like a superhero. There's a huge danger and I tackled it, this danger, and overcame it. And I'm proud of that. And now we're tackling this danger together. So, like a feeling of pride, recognition—those are the feelings, I think, for a man, to switch to that.
Don't women look for recognition?
Yes, but I think they seek it differently. May I tell a story about an experience? Absolutely. So, regarding one of the women... That
was one of the first
The flight festival in Lenk. There were 100 female pilots who met there to fly together. There was the current world champion in aerobatics at the time, Gabi Fonk. Yes, Gabi Fonk was with us. She flew, and everyone was completely thrilled by what she was doing up there in the sky. And she received a huge round of applause from all those pilots. But there was also a pilot there who hadn't flown for three years out of pure fear. And she just flew down once, gathered her courage. And she was received with just as much applause as Gabi Fonk.
And I find that sensational. Their achievements were acknowledged, no doubt. But they were very different performances. But women can acknowledge the step the other woman took—the one who, after three years of wanting to do it but not daring to, finally gathered the courage to take off, fly, and land well. Not to do it anymore. She received the same resonance.
But this woman, who hasn't flown for three years. I can imagine if a man hadn't flown for three years. So I assume this woman had already mentioned having these difficulties. And before the takeoff, maybe 99 women knew. There's the hundredth one who is just now making her first flight again after three years. And for her, it's an incredible hurdle to overcome.
Yes.
I
I could imagine a man who hasn't flown for three years, who has the exact same feelings and the insane struggle of "How do I do this now?" He sits on the edge of the launch site, but is completely silent. And says nothing. And no one knows what's actually going on inside him.
Yes, I believe so too. And that's the main argument. When women are among themselves, what distinguishes them as flying women who are only among other flying women—it's communicated differently. Much more benevolently, much friendlier, much more openly. We are also open. It's okay to be embarrassed sometimes. We can talk about mistakes. The standards are obviously different. The openness is different. And it does us good. We develop under these different communicative conditions. Better, even. That doesn't mean we don't seek out challenges. But we can communicate our weaknesses, perhaps we can communicate our weaknesses better.
As this man, who is now sitting there alone—by the way, I'm experiencing this again as a woman, that I'm being told these kinds of stories. By the men? By the men. I actually think it's because I'm a woman that I'm being told these kinds of stories. And then it's exactly the same. I completely agree with you there. Just like with the men. But to communicate that in a flying men's group, wow, I think that would be difficult. Right?
Because a man has to show strength toward another man, but toward a woman, you can show weakness—or whatever is behind that.
Maybe that is in
our... man, with a double -N, it's even meant that way now.
Yes, I think that's still often the case in our heads. The trust base is somehow faster. But we all know the crude remarks at takeoff and at the landing field. They happen among men. I also know a flight instructor who recently told one at takeoff, you always have to take off like a girl too.
There was, of course, a lot of laughter.
Among men? Actually, among everyone.
One woman had said, yeah, you have to... actually take off like a girl. It was like, so hesitant. Yeah, at least it was hesitant. That's what she probably meant. It needs more takeoff impulse. But it was put in that phrasing and there was a lot of laughter. And being a girl has always been a slur among you men, hasn't it? Flying like a girl. Judith made that her title back then. Flying like a girl. Joala, then I'm just a girl. Then I fly like a girl. I'll make that my strength. They seem like... indefensible weaknesses.
So I don't know if it's bad. I don't think I'd find it bad if someone said, "You're flying like a girl today." Because sometimes... I mean, I know many women and girls, in quotation marks—there aren't that many young female pilots, at least not ones I actually experience.
But in terms of flying, they often have a good feel for it, let's say, from what I've observed. And especially in thermals and stuff like that, they are often much less aggressive with the brake or something like that, but rather let... themselves really drift with the lifts. And that's actually an ideal that I'm also trying to achieve for myself, whether that's girly or not. But I think sometimes you can take the girls as a good role model. And if it were like that, I'd say, wow, apparently I flew with feeling. That's not a bad thing.
Yes, wonderful. I wish there were even more men at the launch site like you.
What is it like when you're at the launch site with men? Yes. If there aren't ten other women there, but you're the typical one here—probably, if you go to a launch site in the Palatinate, you're a woman and there are ten other men, I guess. Mostly, yes. Do you ever speak up about a feeling you're having there? Or is that something you really only keep to yourself in a male environment and say, they wouldn't understand anyway? They'd just give me a weird look.
Yeah, I might have to start by criticizing myself right away. I haven't tried that often yet. I'm for myself. Yeah, I'm often for myself. I probably isolate myself with my way of flying and then I'm for myself. I make fewer statements about my impression of the weather, the flight conditions, or materials, than I would in a women's group. No, I'm more for myself there. Why do I do that? That's actually based on experience.
You know the term mansplaining, too—how you can quickly get the world explained to you by flight students. It happens very fast.
So, just a note, you're a flight instructor. And you have students who then explain the aviation world to you?
No, but it happens quickly. It happens fast. You get the world explained to you. That happens often. And I don't feel like dealing with that. And by now, I'm not always very polite about it either. And yeah, I'm just not in the mood for it anymore. That's why I pull back, even though I like... Of course, I like talking to men too. We're doing that right now. No, I like talking. But about flying, specifically, when I'm alone, less with men. As soon as other women who also fly join in, we women talk. About the local flying weather, specifically here among women. Also always with the question, we have the smaller glider now, we're lighter.
Are those also conditions we can fly with, like the weight class, the glider size, and so on? So, under our circumstances, with our conditions. We discuss that if other women do show up at the launch site. Yes, among ourselves. Right, yeah. But no, I withdraw from that. I give
I'm joining you. We're currently sitting in Jutta's kitchen. The church bells are just from the local village church, in case that comes up and you need to place it. Jutta, how did you actually discover the topic of women flying in terms of your aviation career? Or when did it become an issue for you?
So, first of all, I just wanted to fly myself. The desire to fly was there. You dream about that as a child. And now, all of a sudden, the possibilities with a paraglider were there. And I just wanted to fly. At first, I just noticed, registered, that I was doing this in an environment where 90 percent are men. I didn't understand that right away, because there's no reason for it. Motorically, we are just as capable, or as you say, maybe even more gifted because we're sometimes more sensitive with the brakes. Talking to the wind, playing with it, was just a simple observation. That was the first thing.
Then I started out early as a flight instructor, because I'm also a teacher by profession and I really enjoy teaching or passing things on. I'd call it passing it on, and I really, really love sharing joy. And then, in school, the experience was clear: sharing joy is easier with women too. We're standing at the landing field, I've had a collapse for the first time or we're happy or I've taken off from the landing field for the first time. Sharing this joy, this experience, it's a wonderful experience, and I've actually had that especially with women.
That actually happens less with men. Sharing the joy over something experienced while flying. Like...
do men deal with that more internally, based on your experience?
Yes, I had that feeling early on, when I flew over the Rhine here for the first time. I was just so incredibly happy to have flown over the Rhine with such a paratech glider. That's quite a few kilometers. And I wanted to tell everyone what I had experienced and everything I had seen. And I noticed that the men there became completely silent, that I was very much alone with my joy, and that they might have even perceived it as bragging. And I realized, oh, you can't tell it like this here. And I was then alone with my joy about it. And that was a bit sad. And I think that was one of the first reasons to say—and I can also be happy for others when they have experienced something—that sharing this joy is the biggest thing for women.
And then when I was teaching, I noticed that women often need something different. They need more time, for example. And a calm approach.
More time for what?
To learn. For example, I once had a student who started learning to fly together with her husband. They both did the basic course. So they were both equally good, they were good. And then, when they were doing the high-altitude flight course, they were standing up there—I don't know what it was, on the mountain—and were supposed to go down. And she said, no, I'm not doing that now. I want to do another basic course. She did that. I thought, oh, what, I'd want to go down now. But okay, she did another basic course, spent much more time on the ground with her glider to learn it, and is now alone and independent. And then at some point she said, now I'm ready. And she was very fast, I'd say, a better pilot than her husband.
I didn't follow up with her. But I also noticed that she needed much more time and much more self-confidence to have the courage to have a lot of altitude underneath her while flying. That's one example.
Is that also an example of what you said earlier, right at the beginning, where you used so many adjectives to describe what's different about the women? There was something in there, too—they are definitely more safety-conscious.
Yes, absolutely.
Is that also something you see as a safety awareness, this woman saying, "No, I don't feel safe enough with this yet to jump out here at 700 meters above ground. I just want to do the 100 meters first."
Even though she knows exactly what's going on—I mean, you don't have to explain that to her—I could also say that you're much more at risk at 20 meters above the ground than at 700 meters, because you have your parachute with you. Basically, nothing can happen to you in calm air. You don't need to explain that to her. It's just a feeling. And she's also aware that it's a feeling and has nothing to do with the actual conditions. But the feeling is there, so let's pick up from that point and just do two basic courses before we have 500 meters under our butts.
Do men more often push through their feelings when flying?
Well, I think those feelings are there. They aren't at all different. They're just less communicated and probably also pushed aside faster. Yeah, I mean, we can all push feelings aside.
Yes, I think the topic of feelings is a minor one.
So, another story, situation two: Werner and I are standing at the launch site. The conditions are turbulent. We're both experienced pilots, and two rookies come into the Pfalz and say, "It's doable, we're going out." And, yeah, my colleague just totally flipped out and said, "Look, there are two experienced pilots standing here. Just look at what's out there. There were collapses, it was clearly visible. So the air is really, right now, not fun, okay? And you think you can fly that now? That can't be true." Maybe it's not yet this taking the time to perceive it. Maybe that's missing a bit.
The perception, the readiness to perceive, to perceive the time. How the conditions really are and what the feeling for that is. Yes. On the other hand, we have such good gliders now, such good A-gliders, that can take so much, that I really wonder who goes out flying in which conditions, at what learning stage. Where it's swaying and wobbling. And I think, you don't have control now, it's such a need for me. I have to have control. If I feel like the air has more control than I do, then, then I don't go.
Elke Mautel, the SIV trainer, has a nice saying. He says—at least that's how he told me when I was in SIV training—yeah, when you start, it's like in a cinema,
Only in a cinema, if you don't like the movie, you can leave at any time. But if you get into this flight, you can't just leave whenever you want. You have to think this movie through, or rather, fly it to the end. Mhm. And some people just bail without even saying, "Well, the beginning of the movie looked great" or something like that. "I liked the title." They just bail into the beautiful scenery without considering what else might happen in the movie later on. Mhm.
From the way you're describing it just now, do you think that because women are also slower—where you say some might need longer to make decisions, like saying "I really want to start now" or something—that they really do think this movie through to the end?
Women certainly think in pictures.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah, I'd say so. Exactly, the idea that they're looking at the other planes. Oh, I have to be out there too. I have so much headwind. I might not make it forward. Maybe I'll only reach the landing field if I hit my speed bar. It has to be engaged. Yeah, this mental cinema. I think women have that much more often, actually. Yeah, this observation of the circumstances, the flight conditions, and this cinema in the head of what could happen, they have more of that in their heads than many. Always, right, tendentially, and not all.
Yeah, yeah, I think so too. But for me personally, sometimes there's such an uncontrollable joy that I don't have time to spend ten minutes at the launch site looking at the conditions, but then I see that it's flyable. And then I just head out with my gear and think, oh yeah, I want to. And I don't have any more time to wait. But of course.
Sometimes all the signs are there from the very beginning. And you here in the Palatinate, you do—I think you at least do—really enjoy Hike and Fly. And then you're already standing down at the landing field and can see them flying from below. And when you hike up, you keep looking to the right and can actually see how they're continuing to fly. As a flight instructor, you probably also have a good eye for recognizing how they're flying and what I can figure out about the conditions from that. When you're at the launch site and see that the wind is right and everything else, then you say, there won't be any big surprises for me out there now.
No, not that either, of course. But I actually enjoy flying alone, and I've done that since early on. That changes very, very, very much. You've probably already experienced that too. You make your decisions much more consciously, you think about them much more precisely. I also find it very, very exciting in Hike and Fly when you even pick out and find the launch sites yourself. Like how consciously all that mental processing happens and how decisions are made. That's good training, yes. I think women might perhaps need other people to go along with them more. They do make their own decisions,
but, yeah, because they also like to communicate and say, what do you see and what do I see? That's something different at the launch site. I see there's a Lenti back there. Oh, I didn't see that at all. I only see the good headwind. I see, I hear the trees rustling. It might also be a bit too strong. Ah, I only saw the little windsock down there. What do you see, what do I see? I think this kind of perception in women is also more about exchanging information.
More interconnected thinking. Yes. What's the nice word for that? This, I can't remember the exact term, yes, collective intelligence. Or what's it called? Swarm intelligence. Swarm intelligence. Do women have more swarm intelligence, so to speak, because they use it more—well, maybe they don't have more of it, but they use it more? They use it more. That
I would say, yes. They use it more. In any case, yes. And when women are among themselves, they can discuss their topics—and there are topics that only affect women—then they can discuss those too. They would never do that in mixed groups. So, I'll give you an example, it might be a bit embarrassing, but recently in a women's course, one woman said in the group, "I'm on my period, we're out all day, where am I supposed to put my tampons?" You can imagine that a question like that wouldn't be asked in a mixed group. And why shouldn't it also happen sometimes in a closed group, where a woman dares to ask that question and solve the problem?
Because then others see that they have experience with it and say, I always have a little bag with me anyway, or whatever. That's how it is. And the man says, what
for topics, again, women. Exactly, exactly, that's how it is.
Now we've drifted a bit from the original question. Let me go back to that, taking a bit from your story. How you got into this topic of women's flight—women's flight in the sense that you saw something wrong there. You wanted to do something about it. You wanted to, I want to bring the women together, to get involved in some way. When did it happen that you said, hey, maybe we should do something about this organizationally in some way?
So, I think it started specifically when I began instructing.
In 2006, during those basic courses, I was in the Odenwald a lot. And I already had the experience from when I worked as a flight instructor that many people stayed with it and just got their asses in gear first. So I thought, maybe it's because of the role model effect—if one woman can do it, we can all do it. I don't know what the reason was. But the dropout rate among male students, who were definitely, definitely super, super, super, super good, was higher.
I've already thought about what the reason for that might be.
I might not have fully grasped that yet. And maybe some listeners haven't either. But just to clear that up: the dropout rate, or people being more likely to stop their flight training, is higher when they have a female flight instructor. Okay, so I understood that correctly.
That's exactly how it was.
That's why I was with the primary schools for a long time. And there, I also noticed that women—I told one story where a woman said she was doing a basic course twice—I noticed that. Then I occasionally had couples come in, and I had certain experiences there too. For example, if the man was already flying and the woman came and wanted to as well, so that they could share the hobby in their free time, that is, learning to fly.
That sometimes brought about difficulties, especially when the men stayed and helped out. And that it was different when the men were gone. I noticed this difference. And yes, that is a very essential difference, actually. It's almost always the case that women learned more relaxed when their partners weren't there. It was really noticeable.
Even if there were otherwise only men there, in the group, maybe. Yes,
yeah. So as soon as the partner isn't
...then it was more relaxed. You don't have to prove anything to them, show them anything, whatever.
Exactly, yeah.
And this desire to help from the partners toward the women is sometimes more of an obstacle. If the laypeople sort it out, the woman can do that herself. Maybe she needs five or ten minutes longer, of course, because she hasn't done it as often as the man. But that's really not actually a help. Or if, alongside the instructions a flight instructor gives, clever tips come from the man who's already flying, is that helpful? I think we should all ask ourselves much more often: when are our tips and advice actually helpful?
That was often not the case. I noticed that it goes much better when they aren't there. Of course, you also have to... I've asked this before with a couple I once watched all day long... she kept running down the practice slope. She never flew and there was no reason for it. She had her hands up and technically did everything perfectly, but she always ran all the way down the slope in Lindenfels, through the trees. All day long. And I was almost desperate with myself. And then I took the woman aside and asked her, "Tell me, do you actually want to fly?" Short pause, irritation, as it often is with good questions. And then she said, "No, no, actually I'm doing this because my husband..."
And then it was settled, it was out in the open, and the woman didn't have to learn to fly anymore and knew she didn't have to.
Yes, I think this realization is also good. Then
...I'm getting back to my question. I noticed it during the schooling. You noticed it during the schooling. But when did the intention come from you to say, I really want to do something there? I mean, one thing is just the observation.
and that
...another is to say, hey, I want to put energy into that. I mean, I want to move something forward. In whatever form. And when did that happen, and what were your first ideas? What did you start with?
Okay, that naturally evolved. It's simple. I had a dear friend who was into aviation here in the Pfalz.
And yes,
different communication again. We just laughed off a lot of the "guy talk." We often had a good time there, whereas I usually felt rather alone among all those men. That was Beate, that was good. And yes, at the latest when Beate was no longer there—she passed away, but not in a plane crash, she passed away—I noticed something was missing. And then I kept forming WhatsApp groups to say, hey women, there are few of you here in the Pfalz, you know our conditions. It's actually not that easy to fly here. You can also come here and talk to me, just to get even more women to the launch site.
So it started with these WhatsApp groups, that's how we did it. Then I wrote an article, which was many years ago, that got a lot of resonance. Women fly differently. And of course, the response was funny, there was a lot of outrage. Everywhere it was, "Women don't fly differently, we have to do exactly the same thing." Of course, we have to do exactly the same thing, but not quite. There was a lot of reaction to that. And then there were the encounters with Judith Turia—I don't even know where we met for the first time—and Katrin Ganter, who had already started the Women's Flight Festival. And then the three of us said, let's do a festival, just a real festival.
That means we're feasting and we're only flying with other women. And I had... That
there were these women's aviation festivals in Lenk, in Switzerland. In Lenk
in Switzerland, exactly. That was, I think,
five or six years ago. Yeah, around that time. Probably before Corona.
Yes, just before Corona. And there were especially German female pilots coming there, which was very surprising. Well, I had drummed up a bit of publicity, but out of those 100, I think 80 were German female pilots.
And that's when I consciously experienced for the first time what kind of topic this is, how much strength and energy is involved when women fly together and support each other. From the story I told earlier about the woman who hadn't flown for three years, to Gabi Fonck as an acrobat pro pilot and Jude Thurier as a former acrobat pro pilot, who show us what you can do with such a glider and how much energy is in it. Many great women were teaching. Ellie Ecker was still there.
Sonja, who also participates in X-Alps flying in Switzerland. These were great pilots who passed on their knowledge to fly with women. It was a great experience. And that's when I knew it was a big topic. And we have to stick with it. And then followed the step of founding the association Flugliebe with a few friends, with the goal of promoting women's aviation sports, so that we can become more of it.
Specifically for that.
And to network more, that's the art of it. How do I get in touch with other female pilots who can take me to a new flight area, show me where I can fly and how I can fly, simply because they know the area well? That's easy enough. How do I network to move forward and have new experiences? And in a setting that feels good for me. Just like that.
Since when has Flugliebe been around?
We've been around for three years now. We're 25, 26... we started in 2023.
And how many members do you have?
We're over 100 now.
And all women?
No. No, 80% women. There was a long discussion in this founding group. We were six women and two men.
Whether we—no, the men were so sidelined. Whether we let women in or not. We had that for a very, very, very long time. Whether we
Letting men in, you mean? Letting men in, oh my god.
Yes, letting men in. We've discussed that at length over several generations. And the idea was initially only to do it for female pilots. But especially the younger female pilots said we live in a time where you don't exclude anyone anymore. And that argument actually convinced all of us. So men are also allowed to join, those who say we want to support women in aviation so that there are more of you.
But are the men just supporting members? Or, if you do events, maybe go on a trip? Or, I don't know, you could just tell us what kind of events you offer right now. But can the men be involved? Or are there things where it says, no, this is exclusive. This is for women.
So we had it written in our texts that I always only write about female pilots. Just for the sake of it, it's funny. And of course, we mean all pilots.
Yes, the men are actually included. Yes, the men are actually included. And it's okay. But until now, it's always been the case that the women have dominated the groups when we were traveling or were somewhere. And the men who are there really enjoy this different atmosphere. Yes, that's how it is. They are allowed to be there. Maybe we'll do an online event exclusively for women. Here, we want to talk to each other in groups. Those could be topics like menopause or menstruation and flying. We just don't need men there when we discuss that. Nor do we need understanding ones.
And I don't think it would interest you either.
Even in, I don't know, maybe it would interest you. But at that level of depth, where it's probably being discussed, as a man you'd say, I'm results-oriented. So if you've found a solution for how to handle menstruation, then I can tell my wife what she should do when she's flying. Yes, exactly. You'd like to have that information. But you probably wouldn't say, I need to discuss this for two hours now and imagine some images that I don't want to imagine right now.
Exactly, for example.
But if the men are there now—not for these period talks or anything like that. Yeah. But maybe you're going on a trip or doing something else.
Do these men participate in your—and I'm saying "your" deliberately—women's communication? Mhm. Or are the men actually the silent observers? The little mice who say, "I'm enjoying this, I think it's nice to get a taste of this women's atmosphere. I'm getting a sense of something I don't really pick up on with the men." That has something to it, too. But they still don't really open up themselves or show their own feminine emotional side or whatever.
That's how I'd put it at the moment. Yes, that's actually the case. They are more like the quieter companions, tendentially, not always. There are others too, but they're more like the quieter companions who listen, enjoy the atmosphere, or also respectfully step out of the circle when they notice the topic isn't for them. Many men say they like the aspects we prioritize when flying. This experience of and this simultaneous ability to let go of, like, I'm doing a glider flight at sunset, I'm filled with happiness, and I flew 100 km beforehand, I'm filled with happiness—that both of these have their place, and men too.
...not feel like they have to be with the ones who flew the 100 km just to be included, to belong to the community.
That, that's what women have always told me, they said it so beautifully. He said, oh, what does it matter? In the evening, all that counts is who tells the best stories.
With the men or with the women?
He said that for everyone, actually. I mean, it doesn't matter, he's really someone who can fly thousands of kilometers and loves flying, but in the end, he says it doesn't matter. The main thing is that everyone tells their own...
good story. As Fly with Andy, he also had a lot of experience with people who were all over the world. He said I would go flying with him and in the end, it's probably the adventure, the freedom that everyone experienced there in their own way.
You said you'd like for there to be more of us, so us women pilots—female pilots, "pilotinnen" is already feminine—you want there to be more of us. Why is that, though? Why should there be more women in aviation? I believe it...
would change the sport. It would... in what way? Make it even more beautiful than it already is. Even more beautiful. Make it even more beautiful, yes, because I believe that only men among themselves lead to what we've already discussed—even more competition and more elbowing and more of "who is the best, the biggest, the fastest, and the most beautiful" counting—and that women really internalize the aspect of versatility in flying, which does exist, much more, and the aspect of the experience much more. That the mental aspects that come into it, I think, already come strongly from women, from female pilots, into flying in general, that all these aspects will become more prominent.
It will simply become more diverse and colorful. Do you think...
you mean that, because many mental coaches are actually coaches? Yes. If you, that's right, if you say that.
Yes. Yes.
If I were to... I can't name them all now, but the ones I have in mind, I'd say, okay, then there are. There are more women. It's 3 to 2, the ratio of female mental coaches to male mental coaches, or something like that.
Yes. This topic just opens up so much more, which is why I find that. And sports are so incredibly diverse. And you said earlier, the most mentioned keyword when flying, why do you fly, is freedom. We all say freedom. That
was in the preliminary talk where I said that. In case anyone is wondering where Lucian Haas talked about freedom, that was in a preliminary talk, but yeah, freedom.
But we all know that. Everyone eventually answers with the keyword freedom. But it's interesting, we live in a world where we constantly have to challenge ourselves. We always have to be better, have more performance, sell more, achieve more profit, more. Exactly the same principles. We take them into our favorite hobby, where freedom is the most important thing to us, and turn it into a competitive sport. That means we're limiting ourselves again while flying, by saying it's only fun if I'm first, or at least second, or at least in the top ten.
It's more of a limitation when I only think in this "higher, faster, further" mode. And removing that limitation—I believe women's paragliding definitely helps with that.
Do you think if there wasn't this "higher, faster, further" in paragliding, that more women would automatically be involved?
Yeah, we could try that in a course. We'd completely shut out the world—from magazines to everything else—and just say, this is our sport and you can experience all of it.
Yes, I think that's how it is. A woman also wrote to me about the safety aspect. After she had her second child, she went back to an A-glider. She's been lectured by so many people, especially men, that B-gliders are actually much safer than A-gliders because she's faster then. She feels so comfortable with her Alpha. And she wants it that way now. This being lectured that I have to fly a higher glider because I'm actually capable of it—that's really grating on her. I think if we could let that be much more, the woman is even more aware of her responsibility than before.
It's not that other women who don't have children aren't aware of this responsibility,
says, I want to fly an A-glider. And without having to justify myself. And I said, I was really tired of that motto, of constantly having to justify that I'm flying an A-glider again.
Now you just mentioned the example of the DRV. You said there are 87 percent men and 13 percent women. If women get interested in aviation sports now, they always run into this fear of flying from the men. They will always perceive that too. They arrive at the launch site, and there are ten men sitting there and one or two women. Somewhere, that average of 13 has to come out, if you're counting with ten.
How can you manage that when there's such a purely numerical male dominance, and naturally, a male dominance in all the communication as well? How can you still manage to say, we're slowly increasing that 13 percent, we'll become 15, we'll become 17, 21, whatever. That would be my
dream, yes.
How can you do that when there's actually such a huge male dominance there?
Yes, I think my experience now is that it works through networking. Many women talk to each other and make plans through the network. That's the big point. And that's happening everywhere in Allgäu, the WhatsApp group. You said you have them here. There are these WhatsApp groups everywhere where only female pilots make plans,
where only female pilots network, feel looked after, and don't feel alone. I had one here now who's had her license for two years. She's never flown in the Pfalz before, she flew with me for the first time three weeks ago. She told me she was once at a mountain and there were so many men there explaining to her how it works and what she should do. And what she shouldn't do. And she said, I couldn't fly anymore.
Yeah. To them.
...so much was explained that she says, I can't take it anymore. I clearly can't do justice to anyone here anyway, or what?
Yeah, exactly. It was like she felt completely overwhelmed. Even though it was probably a simple day. She was just completely overwhelmed by the flood of information and this feeling that she had to hold her own among men. So she didn't take off. And then we had a paragliding meet-up here in the Pfalz, a High-Can-Fly weekend. And she took off from two mountains there. Among others, a very, very difficult one, the Plättersberg, where you have to land between vineyards. She did great.
Just the other conditions, the other atmosphere. I believe that. I think women need to network, find their topics, speak up, and find space for themselves to grow. And for that, they sometimes—not always, we do it very often—need to be allowed to be among themselves. I don't know a single argument that really convinces me as to why people don't want to allow women to hold events for themselves that would be considered legitimate.
Why shouldn't that be the case? I mean...
Look, we haven't really addressed this explicitly yet, but you're advocating for women to have safe spaces in aviation or the aviation community, in a sense.
Also, to have it, exactly that word, to be allowed to have it. But yeah, why shouldn't they be allowed to have that too?
To be among themselves, in order to be stronger and more confident in their own tempo and with their own circumstances. To go to the launch site without having to justify themselves and without being pulled out of their own element. Like, how flying works?
Are women so confident that when they come from a women's group and say, okay, I've encountered a different way of flying—let's just say—that flying is ultimately the same in the air, maybe. But I've experienced the surrounding stuff a bit differently now.
Yes. And
then they might go back to their club, their launch site. Yes. Back to a familiar environment where it's 90 percent men, 10 percent women, or 87, 13, whatever.
Can they still maintain that if they say, I'm now only alone in front of this phalanx or there are at most two of us? But you're not always just two people there, where you can really say, do women have a chance?
At the last regional meeting, a small, very small kite flyer sat next to me. And she said such a beautiful sentence. She said, "For 360 days a year, I want to fly together, but for four days a year, I would like to be allowed to fly among women." And I believe then, well, this woman, who is apparently also a kite flyer in this scene, she fought her way through. But even for her, although she has long since achieved that and is a seasoned kite flyer, she has the wish to say, "For four days, I would like to be allowed to be among ourselves." All that which makes male flying what it is, and
be among ourselves. Why not? I think that's good.
If we imagine an ideal world for a moment, where we had 50 percent women and 50 percent men in the aviation world.
Do you think it would still be necessary to have such safe spaces? Or would you say, no, it would be egalitarian by then? That it actually works?
If I were to judge for myself, I'd say then it wouldn't be necessary anymore. But of course, I'm someone who grew up with two brothers. So I know what that's like, I didn't have sisters or anything. For me, it would be okay, but I think many women would still want it. Yes, just for themselves. Why not? The men's bowling club also bowls with men. Why shouldn't the women go flying with each other? It
There are also women's bowling clubs that bowl together. Are there? Yes! My grandma was in a women's bowling club for years, and every year they'd go on a trip together or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yes, that exists too. And that was—well, my grandma has been dead for a long time, but there were times when you wouldn't say society is like it is now, where everyone is allowed to do that. No, that was back in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
Yes, that was already revolutionary back then. But it was about bowling, and now it's about flying. And just yesterday, someone wrote to me, "Oh Jutta, I really want to tell you this." She had her second child and now they're telling her all the time that she should stop flying at the latest now. Because she has responsibilities. And what appalls her the most is that this message is even coming from other women.
I find that very interesting too.
So, achieving feminism in the sense of being truly equal and on par isn't just something men have to allow; the shift in mindset has to happen for women too. Yes. Because the father, who is also a pilot, is never approached about the fact that he now has a second child and should please stop flying.
Do you know any women who you would say wouldn't feel comfortable in women's groups?
Yes. I mean,
as pilots.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are often the ones who, I'd say, bit the bullet and became good at it.
...have become good at flying or reached some kind of position. I don't think they understand that very well, or they often feel like they have to protect their flying male colleagues from us women. Yes, I've experienced and discussed that too. And they feel, well,
they just don't need that. I want to fly and, yeah, you have to grit your teeth a bit. And yeah, I've learned it too. They see the benefit in it. I know these women. But I find that when they do end up being involved more often, it's not actually that bad for them.
Because they then notice that they are actually allowed to bring up topics like menstruation or whatever else.
Not at all because of the communicative aspect. But yes, for example, the development of small gliders. That it helps if I have a good, braided-load glider that fits me better than a glider that is too big, even though I get along well in the men's world. What emerged from such women's groups. And oops, I suddenly fly a bit more securely and better than before. They might like to take that realization with them. But communicatively, they don't need it. The women are there. Sure, they might even reject it. I don't quite understand yet why there might sometimes be rejection from the female side as well.
Small gliders. It would have been almost a nice transition. Let's get to that right away. I have one more question. You're allowed to badmouth them a bit now.
From your observations, what are the worst male behaviors in the aviation world that come across as most repulsive to women?
Hmm, funny. So, what comes to mind spontaneously. Maybe you have
a Top 10 or Top 3 or whatever.
Yeah, what younger women always tell me. Like, do I have to see all the naked men at the launch site?
I wouldn't have expected that. Yes,
I find that funny too. But I hear that often.
Because the men are always taking off their T-shirts there. Saying they're all sweaty and now I'm just sitting here. But is that a factor of envy, because the women wouldn't dare or wouldn't be able to do that? Or is it actually something repulsive?
I actually think so. I mean, it's just not very aesthetic. You know the average age of our pilots. Yeah, it's more of an aesthetic thing. I don't need that. And they still proudly show off their bellies. So no, I don't think it's nice. I hear that quite often.
Should men hold back a bit more when taking off their T-shirts?
It's not about changing the T-shirt. It's actually about dominating the launch site with a bare chest. Something like that. That just occurred to me. Women keep saying what bothers them.
What bothers them is often being explained to. Especially in the context of emotional states. One woman wrote to me that she was in SIV training and said she was scared. And men are standing around her, explaining the flight technique to her again. And she says, I've heard the flight technique too. I understood it. That's not the issue. He could explain it to me three more times now. This mansplaining, I think that's something very unpleasant.
Hmm. Yeah.
There have always been sexist remarks from time to time. But it's a relatively minor topic among women. Hm. So. It's a minor topic. Sexism. Yes. But of course, it does happen every now and then. Yes, I once experienced a flight instructor who made this gesture, like moving his hands up and down in front of his chest, and said, "Can you walk without wobbling like that?" That's of course unpleasant, a remark like that. Yes, there are remarks like that. Or a flight instructor who actually said to a woman, "Can you walk like a woman?"
Ready to go, or what? At
Start, yes. To a flight student.
And then the woman said, sorry, I don't have my hiking boots with me today, or something?
Yeah, they're all so tense. They want to learn to fly. They're dependent on themselves. On a flight instructor like that.
No, in that case, with the "you can walk like a woman" thing, I intervened. I told her, you're not getting on the radio here anymore. But she took it well. Those are just comments. But there are others too; now a colleague has a pink glider. There were also comments from the male world. What does one say? Well, yeah, girly, clearly. And in the sense of, oh, embarrassing.
But, I don't know exactly anymore. But it is embarrassing to fly like a girl. But men have to learn that too. And the man was able to, he says, he can handle it. I fly.
Let's just take that as a transition to the topic of gliders. Yes. Are there typical girls' gliders or women's gliders? Oh, I found
I completely
terrible. Do you remember what? There used to be... From U-Turn, there was once Ladyguard. Yeah,
that glider was so intense. It was also pink,
I think so. White
I don't at all. But the commercial was so intense. There was a woman in a white, flowing dress standing on a cloud. And the slogan was, for those who fly above the clouds, Ladyguard. Exactly.
And you see, women can fly better than men, they can even manage it above the clouds. Above the
Clouds, yeah. That blew my mind. Yeah, that was, I don't know, 15 years ago. That was a saying. Are there typical women's gliders? No. Well, just like with men, there are women who prefer a direct contact with the glider over a softer contact. That exists for both men and women. You can try it all out and have to find what works for you. Whatever you prefer. Whether you prefer a fast reaction. Or whether you prefer the progressive control pressure.
Yeah, well, until a few years ago, the gliders were designed primarily for men in the medium weight range. You know that much better than I do. And then the small gliders were often just scaled down. And for some time, even a few years ago, they were still dangerous. More prone to deep stall.
Closer to the collapse. And so on. That didn't go so well. Nowadays, there are several manufacturers who actually make an effort to specifically construct lightweight gliders, regardless of whether it's a female or male pilot. That's the difference. Just scaling them down versus constructing them specifically. And that's good. I don't feel like the awareness has reached all flight schools and all flight instructors yet,
that from my point of view, women also need a higher-loaded glider with an A-glider. They are often still sold gliders that are simply too large. These then cause women to stand against the wind in the air more often. They cause them to feel like they have no control because the reaction time of such a glider—low load, less surface pressure—is much higher, meaning until it goes around the curve. I had gliders where, as a flight instructor, I really knew, Jutta, announce this curve at least three seconds before the thing flies around the curve. And that's completely normal, you don't have to be afraid.
At some point, the outside wing will lift slightly more, and then this glider reacts and turns into the curve. You have to call it much earlier. I don't think these gliders provide any safety for women. So of course it's clear to me that the collapse,
it's actually higher under low load, but I understand that the reaction with faster gliders, with higher area loading, is higher. But I find it much worse for these women to have gliders or lightweights—I can't call myself a pilot now—but for these lightweights to have gliders that react so slowly and delayed due to the lack of area loading. That scares me. It scares me to be under such a glider.
When did you have, how should I put it, the "aha moment" with the small glider?
Oh, I made so many mistakes while flying, for God's sake, I can't even remember. With my first glider. My Akkus was my first "aha" glider, for example, because I like to fly with straight legs—so, back then, coming out of acrobatics, flying with straight legs, I was always standing in the speed bar.
Yeah, exactly.
And also took collapses.
Yes, I did change something there. I notice it again and again. I think it was actually back with Bici, who built those good little gliders, and I had that feeling for the first time: yes, the glider reacts immediately to my control pressure and my weight shift. I think that was with the Base. Oh, how nice, I loved flying steep spirals and getting out of them again because it reacted immediately. That's always a difficulty, of course, but that was with the Base and the Bici, how different it can feel when a glider really fits your weight.
Of course, over the course of the 20, well, the 20-plus years that I've been flying, I've also gotten heavier. Back then I was much lighter and the issue wasn't really there. So it developed successively.
Let's maybe—you just told us about BASE, but let's make this a bit more practical. Maybe the women listening here will say, okay, there's someone telling me that maybe I'm flying a glider that's too big. How can you actually determine if you're flying a glider that's too big, or how did you figure that out for yourself?
I see this all the time, and women feel it the same way. That feeling of being stuck in the wind while soaring—simple conditions, but others are still flying. And you're standing in the wind and feel like, oh, it's going to be tight with the landing field. You already need the speed bar just to make progress. Then they're still flying for a long time. I think if you have that feeling, that's it. And then there's a second feeling, of not having control. Not even in bad conditions, but just with a bit of wind or whatever I've had before. I had a tough woman with me, a great athlete, who said she didn't want to fly thermals. She did all sorts of things. And then I thought, why doesn't this woman want to fly thermals?
We were filming, and I said, come on, I'll give you some different gear. I'll take yours. So I took it. Then I went out, and it immediately twisted. It's very easy during a shoot. And I immediately screamed, I yelled. What is this? The harness was so big that with every turn, you'd slide away a bit.
It was a terrible feeling, tumbling around in that thing in the thermals. Flying thermals with that. Of course, as an experienced pilot, I got scared in it immediately. And she doesn't know yet how it works or how it functions. I thought, no, well, I would be scared too. So I just gave her a small harness, which was way too small and didn't fit her at all. And she actually flew thermals on her first flight. With a lot of gear, it's like that because you have that immediate contact with the glider. If it's not immediate, you know, it doesn't feel good at all. And with women, you have to keep an extra eye out to see if it fits.
In
In this example, you were basically talking about the harness. The question was: how can I, as a pilot, recognize that I'm flying a glider that's too big? If I...
I feel like I don't have control, even at the launch site. I mean, sometimes I'm horrified by how many square meters some people start with. Yeah, I'd have a problem too without a Cobra start if I had to bring that thing over myself with that many square meters in decent wind. So, if I always have the feeling that, even during ground handling, this glider does whatever it wants and I don't have nearly enough strength to counter all of that. Your strength has to be sufficient to be able to ground handle in decent wind. I'm not allowed to just stand there in the air, and I'm not allowed to feel like I have no control at all, but am just exposed to the wind. That feeling of being so lost, of being exposed to the wind.
That scares a lot of people. I'm also afraid that on the way, many women—smaller women or smaller pilots—will drop out of flying again. I've experienced that so often.
But I, yeah, I tried to get some figures, but I haven't gotten any figures for that yet. Whether it's actually the case that because of the smaller glider they so often feel at the mercy of the elements, instead of being an actor in these elements, which is the reason. That's what I'd say. And then just try it out. It doesn't help. The wing loading has to be high. Something has changed a bit in recent years. That was still the difference clearly ten years ago. How wing-loaded small gliders were compared to medium or large gliders. That has closed the gap a bit.
But it's still significantly less. Women fly differently than men. Small, lighter women fly with less wing loading. It's a different flight feel and a different handling. That's actually it. Losing line helps me further.
We're just picking up the thread again. Yes. What would you say, quite specifically... Is there a limit where you'd say, based on your experience, that a glider should have at least a certain amount of wing loading?
Yes, I had that in the article,
...the thing about the surface load was written down. Thomas and I did a lot of calculations there. And we came up with about four kilograms per square meter. That's still quite high for light frames. So sometimes it can be a bit lower than that. Four kilos, there...
you really have to go with very small gliders then... If they are light women, you really end up in areas where you'd say these gliders basically don't exist. Or they are already so small that you'd say they might be a bit more aggressive than the larger ones.
Exactly, then we have to ask ourselves, what is safer? Is more aggressive safer? That means if they collapse, they react more violently because they are faster. Or is it safer when I have the control? And personally, I would always... And that was my BASE experience back then. Whoops, I'm the boss here and I say when we turn, how fast we turn, and so on. And then I'd rather say, over there. And by the way, what's also interesting is the test protocols; there are ones for flying at the underweight, at the upper weight. And nowadays, with the small gliders, it's like the test reports in the upper weight range have many more As than in the lower weight range.
So that probably speaks for the fact that they are apparently safer, if that's supposed to be one category. More highly loaded rather than less loaded. I just have to see. So, over the last few years, it really has been on the highly loaded side, having more As than the less loaded ones. Now, if we're talking about A and B gliders, as the low-loaded ones on the same glider.
Now, if you listen to manufacturers, they often say that the difficulty with small sizes is that they say all sizes easily get the B certification—or mostly B gliders in that range—where people fly and say, "Yeah, we can easily get the B certification with all sizes." But the XS or XXS size, that's really difficult because with B gliders, during certain maneuvers, they would actually get a C because they turn away too aggressively after a collapse or something like that. Where they then say, "Yeah, we actually have to work a lot more with materials. We have to build them lighter overall, trim them a bit differently, and all sorts of other things."
That's what's happening.
But that's something many manufacturers have avoided until now. Is there, maybe a bit of advertising, are there manufacturers where you'd say—these and these and these, I can definitely name them—who, in my experience, have this problem in mind?
Yes, definitely. So, who is actually doing a really good job with the small gliders is Air Design. There's this Susi story. He has this light glider, a simple glider for hike and fly as well.
You mean the Susi from Air Design, though. There was also always a Susi from Nova. I was...
super safe. No, the Susi from Air Design is simply the Susi. And the story behind it is actually that the designer flew with a very small, light girlfriend and saw it for himself. She gets blown around in the wind. And he really bit into that problem. That's nice. And you can tell by these companies. It actually works well. Works better, so, yeah, it's a bit, it works very well for them. Where I experienced it well, very well now, was with SAP, rather with the Birdie in very small, the Levy BGD. I've been a bit out of that for about a year now.
But that used to be very good for the small sizes too, because Prus's son was small and light. But he's grown into a man's size now. I think you could notice that back then with the BASE and the Cure, in the small sizes. It's not great. It has to be tested, too. And the problem with testing 50 kilos is that there aren't that many of them who do that.
No, very few.
One comes to mind now, yes.
And the manufacturers always say that it's actually a real difficulty. So most of them are also very light. They're missing, especially around the lower parts. Somewhere in the middle of such a small size, you can still test it.
Yeah. But
to say, really at the bottom, even as a test pilot, before you go to the DRV or the Airturk Cross or whatever to fly it beforehand. They might say, we still have a test pilot who's going to fly it with 55 kilos. But the manufacturers are missing their own development pilots to adjust the handling accordingly, to adjust the brake accordingly, or to do other things.
Yes, and it's about much more than just the reactions to maneuvers. It's about how a glider actually flies when it's released into the wilderness, into freedom.
The only thing that helps is trying it out. Do I like this glider, do I not? Is the loading right? Is the pressure and the handling and the weight right for me? And in any case, as a tip, definitely orient yourself towards the upper weight range. As a light woman, and I'm talking about up to the 85-kilo class here, the smaller it is, the more difficult it becomes.
What if you know there are gliders that are small, that have, let's say, a weight range up to 80, 60 to 80 or something like that. Sure.
And then the woman weighs 82 in total with her gear, she says.
If you do the math now, you'd say, well, this small glider, flown slightly overloaded, these two small gliders, two kilograms more, actually still have a lower area loading than the next size up flown in the middle.
Yeah, it's that extreme. Yeah, I think it could be that extreme.
Would you then recommend to people to say, "Trust it," that's maybe a bit of a legal gray area, at least in Germany or something, but where you say, "Hey, if you feel comfortable with the glider that's two kilos over, take the glider you're two kilos over." You'll find that it just turns so nicely around the corner, suddenly the thermals, you won't have any disadvantages there. Maybe at most in very, very weak conditions, where you notice, and whether that's the surface area or simply that such smaller gliders just perform a bit worse aerodynamically in principle, you just have to get used to that. But that it then, yeah, goes just fine,
think about it,
Give it a try, go over it to find out.
So you have to say, these gliders are tested at the top and bottom. The manufacturer has thought about what size class they want and specifies it as such. They aren't tested at 82 if they were tested up to 80. And that's why I'd tend to see it the way you're seeing it now. I wouldn't recommend it per se. But a recommendation like that is also much more extensive. Is someone a hike-and-flyer? Is someone a wild alpine thermal cross-country flyer? That's much more complex. And I'm saying, the tendency is towards a second glider and so on.
Well, yes, it is
stupid. You also have to have the money for it and actually have the time for it. If you do a lot...
travels, yeah.
Well, I actually do it that way myself. Like this, right now.
Then there's the other option, which some of the lighter women actually do. I also know examples where they say, well, I'm noticing that a slightly larger size actually flies better if they fly them with a medium load—not at the very bottom, but with a medium load—and I just take a light lead vest. Although "light" still means 5, 6, or 7 kilos. And whatever else they have in the backpack or something. But where they say, hey, I love flying this way, and I'm just noticing that this size really works better. When you're working with women like that, what do you recommend to them?
So I know the stories of women who did that and then, for example, stepped into a hole at the launch site. Broken knees. With 5 or 6 kilos extra on your body, the knee gets damaged more. So I know those. Just keep that in mind. You also have to land it. Last year at the competition, I saw Chinese women, small and light, with lead vests, landing on their backs. Do I want that every time?
Weighing it up, weighing it up. Yes, flying is nicer. Flying is nicer, bigger, and heavier.
Weighing it up. I have to carry it, can I do that? Here in the Pfalz I can't, so I won't. Weighing it up and deciding, yes. But this argument about twisting my ankle because there's a mouse hole or something and I have weight on my shoulders or somewhere, is already, is already intense. I'm not, like, that crazy about flying anymore. And now I'm also heavy enough that I can fly proper gliders by now.
So you've evolved in both senses. 10
Kilos. Yes, definitely. No, I don't know how much, but yes, definitely heavier.
It also makes sense to put on a bit of weight sometimes. I can finally fly one size larger.
Well, back then, there wasn't anything even smaller when I started over 20 years ago. I've actually always flown the same size, but I'd say it's because there weren't any smaller ones available back then.
Maybe as a final question for the whole complex. If you imagine it like this, there are too few women in our aviation sports. There could be, or we'd love to have, more. Let's say, from your perspective, and I'd love to hear your take. What do you see as the bigger obstacle, if that can even be assessed? Would you say it's perhaps the technology that isn't quite right in many respects, like the glider, where you'd say, in the end, I don't feel that comfortable. You mentioned earlier that women are also more safety-conscious or something. And they might then, per se, not feel as secure with this poor material, with this unsuitable material.
Or is it this male dominance, the mansplaining, and whatever else you have there, where you'd say that's maybe something that causes even women who dip their toes into the flying community, take a course, but then eventually stop? What would you say, what carries more weight? I
I think male dominance is actually the bigger problem. The other problem can be fixed and it's also becoming increasingly smaller. There are more and more manufacturers paying attention to making sure things fit, and there's a different awareness of it.
I once had a kitesurfer at the launch site in Meduno who had nothing to do with flying otherwise, but she was a kitesurfer. And we went out in tandem in really high wind, and I knew she could do it. We really thought about it together. We were the first to launch with a Copa Starter in tandem. She was totally on board with all of it. We flew well, and then I said, hey, how about it? Do you want to join in too? And then she looked around and said—it was a really spontaneous answer—there aren't any women here at all.
Do you understand? That feeling of being alone
to be. Now I know the kite scene
no, but are there many more women in the kite scene?
I don't know. I don't know. But I just know that she was a kiter. I have no idea if there are more women there. But it was more of a spontaneous comment. There aren't any women there.
Yes, we are fewer. We are fewer, yeah. And one also wrote to me, she wants to be perceived herself. When I go to the launch site with my partner as a woman, it's actually like, then the man is the pilot and the woman is, maybe your wife has experienced this too, the smaller pilot. And you get addressed and she's just an accessory, and maybe there's also a need there to be perceived and to find a speaking partner.
So, as a final question, what would you recommend to women if they are somewhere, for example, at the Flugliebe club—which isn't just limited to the Palatinate, even if you might be based here in the Palatinate or something. No, we are
...all the way to Austria, Switzerland, and the Northeast; we're spread out very far.
But that's also something where you'd say you don't meet up locally all the time, but rather organize a trip or a meeting somewhere else. What would you recommend for the everyday lives of female pilots—how can they, how should I put it, live out more femininity in aviation or bring more feminine energy into their environment?
So, the first thing I'd say is to fly more often. That increases safety. So, stripping down, also flying—that you appreciate it, learn it, and enjoy it. That's how I learned to fly here. I spent two years climbing up and jumping down, nothing more. So, go flying often and actually, as is happening everywhere now, find groups where there are other women and ask around. Maybe in local clubs, do you already have a group that's just for women? Ask specifically if there are others there with whom I can go flying together, because the atmosphere is different, because the experience is different.
Joining forces, networking, coming together and living the experience. And maybe also, some people have told me now, continuing education. So, SIV training only with women—one person told me enthusiastically how big the difference was for her between a mixed group and an all-female group; that the development was much greater in the all-female group, because all...
what we discussed didn't happen there, and because all the emotions that were there had space. Now
the SIV trainers are also mostly trainers. I mean, I know very few women who provide SIV training. Yeah. And it might also be interesting to see to what extent the trainers manage—or don't manage—with so much female power. You probably have to find at least the right trainer for that.
Yes, it has to fit, but on a human level, it always has to fit so that the good process of learning and teaching goes well; it always has to work on a human level. You have to look into that. Yes, the guy who trained Judith back then during her Infinity, she actually asked him once, "You had a group of women." And he said, "What? The only difference I noticed was that they needed more toilet paper, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed any difference."
Yes, but for the women, it makes a difference.
Yes, but he was also down there, so he might not have caught the conversations at the launch site at all. Definitely didn't catch them. Yes. He wanted that
didn't either, yeah. And
what all is being handed out.
Finally, maybe a tip from you. Is there somewhere like, how should I call it? An info board, some information, something where things are summarized, where it says, if I'm interested in this, where can I maybe find such women's groups? Also in my region or a WhatsApp group or something. Is there something like that?
Well, that reminds me, it depends on my to-do list. Yes, it was already mentioned last year on Flugliebe that we should collect all the WhatsApp groups that exist by region. I'm writing that down on my to-do list now, and then it will be on the Flugliebe website. And I'll keep that in mind—everyone listening, get in touch with me, Jutta, and write down which WhatsApp groups exist in which region. Then we'll make a collection list and you can find them there. Where you can network. This will happen in the next two weeks.
Then it should be online by the time this podcast comes out. I'll link it in the show notes accordingly. And I hope the women then network more and that even more women's power gets into aviation. I
I think it
the plane scene would definitely do well. Thanks, Jutta, for sharing.
Thanks for asking. And yes, it was nice. It was fun.
In the show notes for this episode with Jutta Reiser, you'll find not only the link to the Flugliebe association, but also special offers for women and a text co-authored by Jutta, which explains in more detail the advantages of smaller glider sizes for light pilots. If you want to hear even more inspiring stories from the world of paragliding, I recommend two steps. First, subscribe to Podz-Glidz in your podcatcher of choice so you don't miss an episode. And second, become a supporter of my work. On my Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com, you'll find all the necessary information and links under the "Fördern" section on how you can continue to provide a basis for this project with a freely chosen, large or small financial contribution.
I want to thank all my supporters. Start early, land late, fly far, but stay safe. See you soon, your Lucian.