I'm not a cross-country pilot. I'm really not a very good pilot. I'm a passionate pilot. I'm happy when I'm up in the air for half or three-quarters of an hour. If I ever fly five or ten kilometers away from the field, I rarely do it because I usually have to work, because when the conditions are right, it's training weather. And that's not my intention either. My intention is to accompany the people and also get into the air every now and then. And that's my fun. So I don't have to fly in competition. I would hold up any team because I don't have any ambition.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding.
Today with Dagmar Wielisch. And I'm Lucian Haas.
There are people for whom flying is their greatest passion, but they don't get into the air that much themselves. Because of that, they care even more about making sure others can live out that dream. They act as the breeding ground and the constantly running engine of an entire flying community. Dagmar Wielisch from Waren an der Müritz in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is a prime example of this. Over 20 years ago, she was the only paraglider pilot in the area, but she always had to travel far to take off. When that was no longer possible because she had to care for her mother, she inspired fellow enthusiasts. There were many winch tow options at the nearby sailplane airfield. And eventually, she even built a flight school starting in 2013, which she still runs today at 66 years old and officially retired.
The North German paragliding school is today not just the go-to spot for the lowland paragliding scene north of Berlin. History is also being made there. The school is running a pilot program to officially train people with mobility impairments in paragliding. At least in Germany, this is a first. For this purpose, the so-called Flychair was specifically approved as a launch vehicle for winch towing. In this episode 189 of Podz-Glidz, Dagmar Wielisch doesn't just talk about this flagship project. It's also about her pioneering role in the use of electric winches, the organization of team competition flights, and the importance of community in living out one's flying dream.
By the way, I can only present conversations like these because there are sponsors who financially support my work on the podcast and blog. Join in! You can find out how on the Gleitschirm-Blog Lu-Glidz, specifically on the "Fördern" page.
Dagmar, tell me, how do you come up with the idea of founding a paraglider school at the age of 53 in the flatlands of northern Germany—where there are no mountains—and that without being a flight instructor yourself?
It actually comes from my childhood, having a dream of flying. I would have been able to learn to fly at all by my mid-40s, because I never would have gotten a medical certificate. Then, of course, I tried to make this dream a reality and have been traveling across the wide world since 2004, visiting all the flying sites that were within my reach. But 2008 was a very defining experience for me. That's when my dad died, who had been caring for my mother, who was already suffering from dementia and was physically and mentally disabled, and I then had to care for my parents—well, my mother. I couldn't get away from that anymore. There's an airfield nearby with wonderful infrastructure, but there was no paragliding there, and I kept pushing for it,
...came here and spoke with winch operators, if anyone remembers, Bernd Mohaupt once built winches and he visited us here and such, to learn to fly here or to fly with me. I couldn't fly at all.
So you wanted to keep flying somehow and you're saying, I can only do that at home because I can't leave right now. And because I can't leave, I basically have to build the infrastructure for it at home. Then I just start a flight school.
No, no. First, I'll buy a small winch. Ah, okay. And I put this small winch on the airfield. I couldn't drive anymore. I still had to learn how to be a winch operator. And then I started drumming again. Come here, fly. But even then, there were no pilots here. And one day, a friend from DCB Berlin came. She told me there were a few people who wanted to start a flight school. And I say, come here, I'll support you. I have a large site, 60 hectares. I have a winch. And you can eventually [fly] here, I'll open the doors for you, and I just want to fly. They came over and then founded the flight school in 2020. And in 2013, they turned it into a GmbH.
In the meantime, they moved into my house with the flight school. And they were active on the airfield. And of course, I got involved too. And then they asked me if I wanted to join the GmbH. And I said, ultimately, I just want to fly. I'm completely busy, I have to care for my mother. I'll support you as much as I can. But the flight school, that's you guys. That went on until 2012. 2018, 2019 was good. And then my partners pulled out. And the alternative was either to ultimately dissolve the flight school or to keep going. In the meantime, I had already met great people who supported me. And I then decided to keep the flight school going and build a new team.
We'll get back to that in a moment. I'd like to take a step back because you said you bought a winch first. Now, to start with a winch, you need a winch operator who is actually able to do it. If you want to fly now, who do you have in the flatlands, where there might not even be other pilots? How did you get people to come along who might have pulled you into the air? Or did your desire to fly ultimately lead to you sitting on the winch and pulling other people into the air?
Well, pulling people into the air happened later, once I had my winch license. But the one who got the thermals for flying was Bernd Lämme; he was a winch operator. Later on, he also built the Molli winches for us. We'll definitely get to that. And Bernd Lämme trained me on the winch and, of course, towed me up. But he wasn't always here. He came from the Münster area, so I had to find people here who could fly with me during the times he wasn't available.
So you tried to build a flying community there. Were there any other paragliders back then? I mean, the airfield is Waren viel. I think it's located two kilometers north of Waren, on the Müritz, a beautiful large lake and such. Were there already other paragliders coming from this area? And if they wanted to go paragliding, where did they even go to fly back then?
There weren't many. There weren't any directly in Waren. There was someone from the Neustrelitz area who eventually approached us about founding the flight school and met us. But there were none here. And paragliding wasn't known at all. Most people were like me. They might have seen some in the mountains once. But the idea that you can do it in the flatlands too, and that you can actually fly with a piece of fabric over your head, wasn't present here in Northern Germany at all. And even now, after 20 years of a flying career, people still look at me with wide eyes and say, you can actually do something like that. And doing it here in the flatlands—that's still a big step, a long way to go, to really make it known, to establish paragliding as something natural here in the flatlands.
That means you could say you're something like the breeding ground for paragliding around Waren. Yes, you could say that. You're the mother of paragliding in the northern German lowlands, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
Let's leave out the "mother" part. But I am the first pilot from Waren who could do paragliding. And by now, in the surrounding area all the way up to Rostock, there are already a few people we train. Or people who were trained in the mountains at some point and then learned winch towing with us through further training and now go flying with us.
Are you guys... I mean, you founded this flight school. Is there also a club alongside it, or are you basically, as a flight school, also something like the club at the same time for the people who want to fly there? Like, is it the case that with the flight school in the center, it's actually the flight center for everyone in the area who wants to go flying there?
So this wonderful flight center where people fly belongs to the municipality. And they then leased it to the Warner Luftsportverein. And the Warner Luftsportverein was a pure gliding club with model aircraft flyers until 2006. So there were no paragliding pilots there. And in 2006, I submitted the application to become a member there together with Bernd. And we became the first two paragliding pilots in this club. And with that, we founded the paragliding department. How big is that department today? Well, unfortunately not as big as I would have imagined. There are about 20 members in this department. But regarding the paragliding school, you're right,
Ultimately, the core point is the paragliding school, because we have the winches, and we also make them available to the club for use free of charge. And the community is much larger than the members in the paragliding section of the Wanderluftsportverein.
Approximately how many pilots have you trained since the flight school was founded? Or how many people are currently in your circle?
Yes, that's already 200, 300 people who know about this place. But they also come from my time at the DCB. I was active there, for example, I organized the entire start team for the German Flatlands. I knew the people. So I have very many people who had already flown in the flatlands anyway, who also came to the airfield just to visit us. For example, we now have the Inntal association, they came to visit us and did a week of paraglider vacation. And it was wonderful. And those who could fly the winch winds just quickly got their inland license again.
That means they actually made a club trip to see you and said, we are
here, we are here, we are here.
Let's look at paragliding or flatland flying in the North German plain, what it's like, gliding over the lakes. What is it like at all, flying over the Mecklenburg Lake District? Is it something special? Is it also technically something special? Do you have to bring something to the table for that which you might not learn elsewhere?
Once you've caught a thermal, flatland flying is much easier than mountain flying. Many pilots confirm that if you have a decent cloud street, you can really make good, good progress. And you don't have all those lee situations that you have to watch out for in the mountains, which we flatlanders can't really grasp that quickly because we're just not from there. The complicated part about flatland flying is getting into the thermals, because the thermals are always somewhere else. You have to read the relief and the clouds together and then make sure you get into one somewhere, and for example, it's not about moving from weak thermals into stronger ones, but once you've found the entry point—so if you have zero lift—then stay in it, because hopefully, it'll eventually pull you through and that's how you get up.
If you can muster that patience and have learned to listen to your "popometer," then flatland flying is actually a wonderful thing. Especially since we have huge areas here—you can see it in the background of my picture—you can land anywhere and then go for a hike.
Then hike back home or what do you think?
Yes, hitchhiking or I always call it air-wandering. We go out on a route and we air-wander and then land somewhere, yeah, you have landing areas everywhere, you can fly anywhere as long as you're not in the woods.
Because everything there is so flat, it's actually quite record-heavy, in the sense that people travel to Brazil to fly long distances over the Brazilian plains. There are also records over Finland, which is also flat land with many lakes and such, where, yeah, I think someone was flown almost 400 kilometers out from the winch. Are there similar records in the Mecklenburg-Vorpommern lowlands as well?
I don't have any ambitions for records. Of course, one or another has already done a nice cross-country flight, but we have a limit—80 kilometers, then the coast is there if you go north. And yes, to the west or to the east, you can fly as far as you can get. But well, you won't run into someone chasing records with me; I'd rather enjoy the view and enjoy being up there in the air and seeing that the earth isn't a flat disc, but that it's round, and wherever I look, I ultimately see those thousand lakes scattered out there. And yes, yes, I'm convinced that the water also influences the thermals to some extent, because you shouldn't fly low directly over the water, because it doesn't go up there, it goes down.
But what goes down there goes back up somewhere else. And that's why I believe, or I know, that it's a very active area and that good cross-country pilots can do some really great flights here. That means,
Water can also be a good ridge line, where you know that everything being pushed against it by warm air doesn't want to flow further over the cold water. It then rises there and might even pick up a bit of moisture from the lake, which ultimately might make the thermals even better and more pleasant at the top. That too, yes.
Let's go way back. You said you always dreamed of flying as a child. Now, you're a child of the lowlands.
What drove you into the air, or at least into the air mentally?
It might sound a bit weird. I know, I was such a dreamy child that I knew what my city looked like from above. So I dreamed around a lot and always felt like I could fly. And that feeling eventually got lost as I grew up, because I also knew I wouldn't be able to fly. Eventually, reality hits, catches up with you, and I feel safe up in the air. I have the water right in front of me, so I don't feel as safe in the water because I don't know what's under there, unlike in the air. It's strange, but that's how it is. And I have this theory that there are air, earth, water, and fire people, and I'm an air person.
I feel comfortable and safe there, and I always envied the birds—we have many birds of prey here—when they took off and you'd watch them, like in the thermals, how they'd spiral up, and I'd dream myself into the air with them.
That since I was a kid. So you understood that these birds fly on thermals, and you always thought, I want to do that too. I don't know if I understood it. I just did it.
Children can do that.
How long did it take from your childhood until you—I think you said earlier, only at 40 or something—until you actually started flying? How did you end up getting into paragliding exactly?
Someone approached me on the internet looking for a partnership and I actually didn't feel like it at all, but there were two pictures of paragliders and paragliders on it. And that made me curious about what it was. And that turned into a wonderful partnership, where thermals then led to paragliding to some extent. That means you did a kind of online dating, but...
It was a check group. I was being flirted with. Ah, and there was a paraglider picture in the background and you said, "That's why I'm flirting back now." Perfect. And then it also, it also clicked, or was it just the paragliders that ultimately pulled it off? It wasn't
High as a kite, that was a blast, that was...
But didn't that person also come from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, or did they?
No, that was Bernd, who came from the Osnabrück area, and we always met up somewhere and went flying. I did my first tandem flight, the first introductory course, and yeah, I eventually did the training after 2004 and became a pilot.
Did you do your training in the North German plain, so in the Osnabrück area, or did you actually drive to the Alps for that?
The nearest flight school was 250 kilometers away, south of Berlin. That's where I did my training. Okay. I'd sit in the office and listen in on the phone to see if they were still flying anywhere in the afternoon, and if they said at 2 p.m. that, yes, flying is possible, then I'd get in the car and drive the 250 kilometers down there to maybe do half an hour of ground school or take a flight, and then drive the 250 kilometers back home. On the same day? On the same day.
That means you hopped on the highway, sped through like nothing else just to do a bit of ground handling or maybe twice with the—probably that was winch training there too, and
then it was at
To be pulled up the rope twice, around 5 in the afternoon or something.
Crazy, but it was like that. I wanted to fly.
Yeah, that's what you take away from it. Was that phase when you had to care for your mother and couldn't fly anymore—was that something where you sort of really had withdrawal symptoms? Of course. What did that feel like for you?
For me, it feels like—or rather, my life motto is—there are no problems, only solutions. That means I had to find a way to get into the air. And that involved drumming up interest and talking to people I knew, trying over and over again to get something started here. Of course, maybe every four weeks it was possible to get away for a weekend when the caregiving was organized and go flying, but I was tied down here, and so I did everything humanly possible to establish paragliding here so that I could fly every now and then.
That means it's a very nice result, but it's basically a very selfish starting phase. Yes, absolutely. You wanted to get into the air and you say, I have to create the framework for that. That's exactly how it is. Now, today you are someone who, of course, still flies yourself, but at the same time, you've gotten an incredible number of other people into the air and are still doing so. What fascinates you about getting other people to fly as well?
More flight schools, and I think many people feel that way. That's why we're sticking with it, and that should be the intention until the very end. We have the chance to make people happy. When you experience for the first time someone taking off, soaring through the air, and landing again, and you hear the cheering, and you know they're going to have sore cheeks the next day from smiling so much, then that's a huge experience. And it's always exciting to see what other emotions come through. That's something that makes me happy, and I also love it when you're on the airfield, you know, when you walk out onto the airfield and see that it's a community that helps each other.
It's a bit of a family relationship. It's like coming home. It's like a big family, and that's what drives me, yeah, to keep doing this. I don't have to make money from it; I never have. I've earned my money with my civilian job. I've been receiving a pension for three years now. I shouldn't actually have to do anything anymore. I could take my plane and go out into the big, wide world. But it's fun to experience how people go flying, how the community is growing, and how my flight instructors feel comfortable here at the airfield. They come from very big, wide worlds. Northern Germany goes all the way to the world, to South Tyrol. Because my training director is Ruben Alpknecht, who comes from Kastelruth.
And he doesn't come here because he has nothing else to do. He earns his money through completely different means, but it's because this area and these people here are ultimately very close to his heart and, yeah, because we have a huge friendship with each other.
Now, you also have a very special project at the flight school. You want to get many people into the air, but you also want to get people into the air who normally can't fly. That means you're now also working with people with disabilities, getting them into the air, and you've even developed your own, yes, harness, launch cart, whatever you want to call it, with which they can get into the air. That's the so-called Flychair. Tell us about that—how did it even come about that you, as a flight school, said we want to make flying possible for these people here too?
We had
In 2016, 2017, a flight instructor named Christian Schäfer—his brother is in a wheelchair—heard about a project in Switzerland. There was a flight school there that trained people with disabilities in wheelchairs. That flight school still exists, but I don't know if they still offer training. Anyway, he went there, checked it out, got trained in wheelchair flying, and then came back and asked, "Can't we do this here?" And we, as a flight school, said, "Sure, it's a project we'd like to support." And then we started getting the certification for the Flightshare here in Germany. It was built in Finland.
And in Germany, you can't just do everything like that; you have to have a license. And this licensing process took over seven years to ultimately get the DHV on board. That convinced us that you can not only take off with a launch trolley but also take it into the air, and that people who cannot walk are also allowed to learn to fly. So, we got this Flightshare approved so that we can, for example, take tandem guests along. And we currently have a trial permit for the training of paraglider pilots who cannot walk in this Flightshare. And in this testing phase, we are now trying to figure out how you have to approach the different degrees of disability.
How does this Flightshare also have to be modified to be adapted to the individual needs of the people? So it's a huge project, but it's also a lot of fun because, believe me, when we had Morena take off and land for the first time, we had to take a ten-minute break because it was so emotional. I mean, I cried, because you know, you're giving people something they really never had a chance at. And I can relate, because due to my vision defect, I also would never have been allowed to fly if paragliding weren't medical-free. And those in wheelchairs have even less of a chance to be allowed to fly at all.
Yes, and that's our Flightshare. And that's what we work with, and that's what we use to get people who otherwise wouldn't be able to fly up into the air.
Briefly explain the setup of a Flightshare. Is there a normal harness that gets hooked onto it? Or is the Flightshare itself also the harness?
It's a completely normal harness. You have a standard, certified harness. The manufacturer has approved that we can fly it in Flightshare. And underneath, you have a frame with two normal wheels from a wheelchair, pulled far forward. You have slightly smaller wheels that are fixed so they don't break loose during the tow. No one can steer, because the people sitting in the wheelchair can't do anything with their feet. You have to keep that in mind. So, the feet are secured to this Flightshare, and with the start, you take them into the air with this Flightshare, and you land on the wheels. You can find a nice video of us on the internet to take a look at it.
And how do you convince the DHV that you can also train with a Flightshare like this? Like saying, I'm taking a tandem passenger with me. I can imagine that easily. Because you say there are people who just start on the mountain with disabled people, where they don't even have a wheelchair underneath, but they're somehow held up. And then you can take off and fly there under the right conditions. But if you want to say, okay, someone should start as a solo pilot. You don't have a practice slope or anything else. So, how does something like that work? And how do you even create a kind of curriculum? What kind of exercises do they have to do accordingly?
With a lot of patience and expertise. I have the advantage that Ruben Markknecht, whom I did the assistant course with—that's where we met—was part of the DHV teaching team for a long time and also worked on updating the APO, so he knows exactly what needs to be considered here. So, the APO is
Training examination regulations, if I...
I know exactly. Right, sorry, yes. And after we got the Flightshare certified, we worked on the certification for training. And as I already said, we're still in the testing phase because we have to go through at least one training course first. And that takes a bit longer with Flightshare pilots. We let them fly along in the training as normal. But you can imagine that it's not really possible with seven flights a day. And it's not a business where you can make a profit either. On the contrary, we're actually subsidizing it because we want to charge the same price for Flightshare pilots as for everyone else. Otherwise, no one would be able to pay for it. So it takes longer and we have to go through everything and work with all the flight maneuvers.
But maybe we can, yeah, for example, we went to Lake Garda with the Flightshare and practiced all the maneuvers there as part of an SIV training. So we flew stalls and rolls, nods, and everything else you need for the training there, including a release with a rescuer. With a water landing, with that vehicle? With a water landing. Oh wow. Eckhard Sammel still did that back then. And we had to test whether, for example, a front container is better than a back container and things like that. So we played all of that out too. Just like with any other certification. And the DHV did a stress test. They crashed the first Flightshare first.
Because it was dropped from a height of five meters somewhere or pulled over a concrete runway at 30 km/h. And this Flightshare had to pass that first before it could be certified.
Is it actually like a flightshare, especially when it's started from the winch, would you say it's harder to start with? Or does it maybe even make it easier? Yes, because... In the end, I think the momentum really only comes from the pull of the winch. The person can't run and can't use their running... Can't run underneath and stuff like that. But if you say the wind is good and anything else, because it can just roll with the pull of the winch and you can pull very slowly and stuff like that, probably, that it could even, I can imagine, even become relatively well-controllable starts accordingly.
We actually wanted to, we thought, to do the pulling exercises first, hand-hauling and stuff like that. You can forget all that. You can do a few pulling exercises, but ultimately you have to start quite quickly with the people involved at the winch from the very beginning. Why
do you have to do that?
Yeah, try pulling someone across a meadow with a hand sled so that their glider stands up and then lifts off about two meters. You can't run that fast, and you'd need five people for that.
Oh, so just in terms of the energy.
Just difficult.
Yes, I mean, if you have the winch and it can pull, then it can already take over that.
Yes, and
takes over as well.
So our candidates have to start pretty quickly too. The great thing about it is that these are people who can do a lot with their upper bodies within their capabilities. They have a sense of balance because they always have to lean out. And because of that, these people also have a very good feel for how to handle their upper bodies. And they can compensate for the under-running, which you can't do. And yeah, you just can't start with a crosswind. You have to have very good conditions to align the glider straight. So starting is the harder part. Landing is totally easy. You can even land with the wind because you roll yourself out.
And every now and then, a flight shot might tumble to the side if you have a bad launch. But wheelchair users know that too. And for them, it wasn't always such a big problem, whereas for us it always was, because they're used to tipping over with a wheelchair. That
It means you get a huge fright and they're like, oh yeah, that's happened now too. Exactly.
Adjust your helmets and keep going.
Do you start with some kind of flat tow? I mean, if you go to the practice slope normally, you start and fly down the slope at about two meters high. Is it also with something like a flight chair, where you say we'll pull with maybe 30 kilos or something, and they only get a few meters up, and then we pull them 500 meters flat over the thing? And then they can land again. Then they've had that first feeling, or do you pull them straight up into the air right away?
We usually pull them straight up into the air. Personally, as a winch operator, and I've done a few thousand winch tows, I'm not a fan of flat tows at the winch at all. Okay, why? Because you're at the most dangerous height, 10 to 30 meters. If a gust hits you there, you're on the rope. You can let off, but you're on the rope and you'll fly off like a cork. So I pull him up myself, then have the flight instructor observe. And if I set him down again 500 meters further, the flight instructor would have to be standing 500 meters further to ultimately guide the pilot during the landing as well.
Then we'd rather do a very good theoretical briefing. A lot of training on the simulator, where everything that happens in the air is practiced. Ground handling. And then the pilot, whether with or without a flight chair, is usually up in the air by the first or second flight to the point where they can independently glide out, turn around, fly back, and land. And that works very well and, from our perspective, is much safer than dragging people over the site at 10 to 30 meters high and hoping for the best.
So, the first flight of your first student, who was there last year, did it go straight up to 300 meters or 200? No, not
...at all. That's only about 150 meters high, just enough so she can turn well, fly back for the start, and then land. There are also recordings of that.
How many flight students with disabilities have you had coming to you by now? We have two at the moment,
who are in our training program. And that's enough for now; we have to finish them because it's quite a lot of work. And we're still in the testing phase. But we have a few more with the tandem.
That means you're planning to finish this training and these first two test training sessions this year. And then you could say there's the first German paraglider pilot who has already learned paragliding with a disability. And on the winch. Everyone, take note.
It's only permitted on the winch. We hope that we'll eventually take the next step and get permission for paragliding on the slope as well. But only on the winch. That's the argument. Only on the winch can the pilot take off independently without assistance. There's no brake on it, after all. And while he is launched by the rope, on the slope someone would have to hold the paraglider so that the pilot doesn't roll away. And the issue of aborting a launch would also have to be tested several times on the slope—how to practice making a proper abort without it actually resulting in a break. That's why the paraglider is only permitted on the winch for now.
Have you ever had a collapse?
Yes, of course. Then a wheel breaks, and you have to get a new one.
But nothing serious?
No. But the wheelchairs are also designed with break-away points, so if he ever tips over, a wheel can bend.
Well, you're integrated—you mentioned these flight students, or two of them now, who are integrated into your normal training. How does this topic of lived inclusion actually change the atmosphere with you? At the airfield? I...
I don't think it changes anything, because we already had that atmosphere before. What's a bit of an issue is that we still have to convince our club that we can build an accessible toilet so that our guests can also stay overnight at the airfield. Christian comes with his car and sleeps in the car too. But it would of course be good if he also had an accessible toilet. And he doesn't know if he'll always be able to help, and the Marines too. But for us as a flight school, it's been clear from the start. That every person who wants to fly, whether they have a disability or are able-bodied, whatever their orientation is, homosexual or whatever, they are all very welcome. We also provide training in English.
The only limitation is the language. For instance, we don't speak Hindi. But otherwise, anyone who wants to fly is very welcome at our airfield. And they belong as part of the team and the community. You
do you want to get everyone off the ground?
Those who have the dream of flying.
To pull this flightshare with the winch properly. You have an electric winch. And I think you were also the first flight school ever to use an electric winch as standard, if I remember correctly.
Yes. Bernd, who seduced me into thermals for flightsharing, always had the dream of flying too. Specifically, of flying independently. He worked as a technician at the university in Berlin, at the University of Osnabrück, and had to develop many things there. So it was all about development, technology, something like that. And he came up with the idea of how one could build an electric winch. And he found a partner there at the company Molitor for motor control. He said, "Look, I'll build the ideas you have." And since we were both involved and I had a flight school, you needed someone who could then implement this development in practice.
So we did the first tests only with a motor and an azimuth at the front and all that kind of stuff, and then we used the first prototype here, which was a single-drum winch. Together with the DHV, we then did all those tests that led to the first motor winch being built.
The disadvantage of this winch, really the disadvantage of this winch, is that it's not battery-powered. But that's simply for the following reason. At that time, which is already ten years ago now, batteries just weren't advanced enough to be able to operate such winches over the long term.
Currently, the company Molitor is working on releasing a battery-powered Molli winch as well. That's why we still have a generator on site. And we've been working with this electric winch since 2006, which is very reliable and can withstand the stresses we have in commercial operations. 100 togs a day, and with very fine control, because you can imagine, in the beginning, when the pilots are making their first flights, you have to approach it completely differently and tow much more sensitively than in a normal club operation. Which I also agree with—we have to handle it very sensitively there too, otherwise we'll limit small and inexperienced pilots.
...out. We'll get back to that in a moment. My question, where I touched on this a bit earlier, and we've moved on a bit now: would towing the Flightchair actually be possible with a normal internal combustion winch, or would they simply be too aggressive for it? I mean, do you need that fine control that an electric winch offers to be able to tow a Flightchair properly? Perhaps especially during training?
I know great winch operators who are also very sensitive with the electric winch. And they can tow with motor winches. And if a motor winch is very well maintained and if the winch operator is very sensitive and knows how to handle it, it can also be towed with a motor winch. I personally have nothing against motor winches. And motor winches, if they are well adjusted, well regulated, and have a good winch operator, they do their job very, very well. But with electric winches, we have a requirement that we can tow more sensitively, especially in the lower weight range. So there is nothing against towing a Flightchair with a motor winch either.
Why can electric winches regulate better in the lower range?
In the certification, in the history of motor winches, there are old cars, like a semi-automatic; I'm no technician, but usually, it was like a semi-automatic motor built into a winch. And to get off the ground at all, standards had to be set somewhere. And those standards were like, okay, when does it start regulating, when, how does it pull in first gear, right? And at one point, the standard was set: it must regulate at least from 60 kilos. And a second standard was established: if you go into neutral with these motors, then this winch may not pull more than 20 kilos.
Then it can be approved. There's nothing saying it can't be less. But that's the minimum, that's the minimum standard. With the progress of today's technology, in my view, this minimum standard is no longer necessary; instead, we can—and that's the advantage of electric motors—we can set them so that they build up pre-tension in the lower weight range, from 5, 6, or 7 kilos, and also regulate cleanly from 20 kilos. That means the winch regulates the pull, and not the winch operator by hand. And it's still, especially with the older, experienced winch operators, often a discussion: "Yeah, I can regulate much better by hand than any electric winch."
Yes, they can regulate better than any motor winch. But they just can't be as sensitive as a good electric winch.
And that's why I'm advocating for us to set new standards for the certification of new winches, because a, it's technically possible and b, it's also safer. I have a pilot here, the girl weighs 45 kilos. And if you're towing her, then when the machine is only working with 60 kilos, she's always in a critical range.
That means she's actually always being towed too hard and the winch never gives way when a gust comes in.
Exactly, it just doesn't give way in time. And that's why I advocate for lowering them further, ultimately so that it doesn't have to be every 45 kilos—it can also be 50, 60, or even 70-kilo pilots. You need at most half of the stated weight force to pull it off the ground at takeoff. Probably even less. And in that range, the winches should already be regulating. Specifically, so that it reaches the pilot immediately when a gust comes in. Personally, it has happened to me before—it was years ago and thank God not much more—I had a rope tension of 20 kilos, a gust came through, and I'm a fine girl of over 80 kilos. And it levered me so much that I strained two cervical vertebrae.
Just compressed? Not hit, but just compressed. It took a long time... Yeah, that takes a while. And it doesn't have to be that way. At 4 or 5 kilos, I can run 100 meters further with the rope to the power source. And that's why we should think more about these things.
Do you also talk a lot about this with the DHV? And are you basically lobbying for electric winches and better regulations? Or what does that look like?
I'm very happy that many new electric winches are on the market now. And that safety for the pilots has significantly increased because of them. I hope this development continues. And I think it's great that the DHV issued a grant to purchase a new electric winch. I think that's totally awesome. And this development is great. And yes, we have to keep talking about it. I became pretty quiet for a while because it simply wasn't being heard. And if you repeat something 10 or 15 times and there's no response, then you don't need to keep talking. But we do talk about it within the community itself. And I hope—and I know we have great people in the DHV now—that there is a movement.
One advantage of electric winches is that because they have such low pulling resistance and so on, you can also offer step-towing. That's where you fly back in several stages and let yourself be pulled up further, turn back towards the winch, and so on. Do you offer something like that too?
We offer that and we do it ourselves. Staged towing is great when the wind is a bit stronger; with little wind and only thermals, staged towing is pointless. Because you lose too much altitude when you're flying with the wind. But if you have a bit more wind, then staged towing is a wonderful way to gain altitude and scan the area after the thermals. I told you, we have the disadvantage with the winch that we enter the thermals deep, and if you can enter higher up, you get up better. And staged towing is also a wonderful opportunity to train in flat country. So if you go out of the winch at 400 or 450 meters, then of course you can much better
roll, nod, and practice the launch spiral as if you were heading out with 300 or 200 meters.
What altitudes do you typically reach? Like, during normal towing at your airfield and when you do step towing?
If you don't want to say more, we once reached two meters under a kilometer. Wow. So we haven't broken the 1,000-meter mark yet. But
that's with a step drag, not with a normal one
Towing? With a step tow. With a normal tow, you'd need so much wind that you wouldn't even want to do it.
hanging on the rope. But you can still get some good height. If I remember correctly, you don't just have one winch now, but a whole row. I think you have four Moli-winches in the school by now, right? Do you need that many? I mean,
We have four MOLLE winches. I took over the winches at the flight school at some point, when—I always say—it was the worst-flying flight school that ever existed. And I didn't take over the flight school to continue it for the rest of my life. Because as a non-flight instructor, that's just not the foundation. These companies have to be very personality-driven, they become very personality-driven. Sure, I have enough to do in the background. And yes, I'll also eventually, in two or three years, be 70, and I want to eventually lean back and say I don't have to work anymore. So, and I have a very committed, very well-trained, and a great guy here, Lenny, who joined the flight school and also invested very heavily.
Lenny built, among other things—I didn't even write that to you, but among other things—the first GeForce trainer that isn't built into some house, but one you can actually drive to the clubs and flight schools. And to complement this mobility, we decided to acquire two more MOLLE winches so that we'd have enough technical power to offer our service not just in Waren, but in other areas as well.
That means Norddeutsche Gleitschirmschule is going on tour.
Exactly. And Northern Germany is big.
You might not have done it as a flight school, but you were significantly involved in it. You also organized a very special, or actually two very special, paraglider competition in your area. The Müritz Open. I find it interesting again that it has such a unique approach to a competition, because it's flown in teams. How did you come up with this idea?
That wasn't my idea; it was the idea of the Kottbusser. The Kottbusser Luftfahrtverein, with Uwe Krenz as the chairman at the time, started a competition, the Spreewald oben. And there, the team competition was already there from the beginning, where you ultimately bring together a three-person team consisting of a very experienced competition pilot, one who can already fly routes well but isn't quite as experienced in competition yet, and a beginner who maybe just got their B-license and wants to start doing their first routes and so on. And these teams are then scored together. And the Kottbusser did that very successfully and very well for many years. But you can imagine, a competition like that demands a lot from a club.
And organizing it every year, the people have to provide helpers from the clubs, too; to some extent, the wind goes out of it if you always do it yourself and can't fly yourself. And I was very happy to be with the Kottbusser and then made the suggestion that we organize this competition here in Waren. And in the first year, 2018, it was organized by the Warner Luftsportverein. At that time, I was still a club employee, a member, and was also the competition director. And then we did the first Müritz-Waren Open here. Great event. And the Kottbusser then came here and flew the competition with us, and we drove back to Kottbusse the next time.
We added that we were the first competition where tandem pilots were allowed to fly. Until then, it was always said that tandem pilots aren't allowed to fly in a competition. It's not permitted. So I called the DHV and asked why that wasn't allowed. We were always told competition and passengers and whatever else is going on. And they were like, why, it's not forbidden, nobody just does it. Then we simply announced that in these three-person teams, tandems are allowed to fly as well, and they will be scored as individual rankings. And that was of course also nice. Then in 2018, we had seven tandem pilots who went out on the course with their partners, friends, children. Then Corona came, and we didn't do the Müritz Open again.
And then last year, the decision was made: are we doing it again or not? And then we, as the flight school, said, "Yes, we'll organize it." And the club, which was an aviation club, supported us with that. And yeah, it was a great event, with a disco in the evening and all that. And within a very short time, the spots were all booked up. And next year, we want to do it again.
So you've planned a biennial rotation now. So there's the one in Cottbus, the Spreewald Open, and then the Müritz Open at your place. And the tandem pilots, do they fly in their own category? Or is there still an individual ranking, or is there actually only this team ranking?
There's the team ranking for the teams. Then we have the tandem ranking. And if there are enough women participating—which still needs to be promoted—then we also do the women's ranking.
But there isn't a ranking for the male over-flyers, where they'd say, "I have to be the one who flew the furthest," but it's still an individual ranking. It's actually about the interest in the team, in getting as far as possible together.
Yes, and that's also fun, because I worked as a start director at the German Open at Altes Lager for years. And that's, of course, competition-driven, the whole thing. But here at the Spreewald Open and the Müritz Open, it's really about starting together, going together. The guys sit down in the evening and do route planning. It gets evaluated. New people are met. Then we have this fun organizing team, and in the scene, people know Nettie, Gunnar, and Petra. They also organize some kind of games with the people where an internal ranking is factored in and such. So, of course, flying is the focus, but it's not so dead serious that anyone can earn spurs or medals here just because they broke the 300-meter mark.
Rather, it's much nicer when the big pro takes two people along and they're the winners together. And it's a blast. They also get to come up with their own team names. And you wouldn't believe the kinds of fantasy names that come up. Great pictures, great times.
Were you there too? I mean, you were the leader, but would you have also wanted to fly along yourself? I'm not a...
Long-haul pilot. I'm really not a good pilot. I'm passionate. I'm happy when I'm up in the air for half or three-quarters of an hour. If I fly five or ten kilometers away from the field, I rarely do it because I usually have to work. Because when the conditions are right, it's training weather. And that's not my intention either. My intention is to accompany the people and also get into the air every now and then. And that's my fun. So I don't have to fly in competition. I would hold up any team because I have no ambition.
So you organize the flight school, you probably sit on the winch yourself quite often, watching the students and the other people who want to fly up, and you enjoy seeing their laughing faces. How often do you actually get into the air yourself?
I organize it now. I've noticed that when I'm at the airfield, I just don't have the peace of mind to let go. That's why, when there's training going on, I'm usually not in the air. It's my own fault, but that's just how it is. But I organize it by, for example, going to Namibia for two months every year, to the dune, doing a head protection, having fun kiting up that sand dune and flying around up there and landing again, sitting with friends and going up again. And the warmth is good for my old bones too. Then I go—we go to Basano for training in the spring, in March and April. Then I drive down with the caravan and stay down there for the whole months and go flying when we don't have training.
And you always run into friends there. I'm never there alone for a single day. And I go flying there, and that's how I organize it so that I get into the air as well.
So you're more of a winter flyer, so to speak?
Yeah. No, it has to be warm. You can't fly much here in March or April. We only start training in May because between May and October, or the end of September, you have flyable weather here. After that, there's too much wind in the north, the base is too low, fog, rain, it's dark for too long, and during that time you have to fly somewhere else. That's what we do with the flight school too. We go to, as I said, Namibia, Portugal, Italy. In two years, I even want to go to Uzbekistan, but that's probably next year, that's another topic again. But those are the trips we take to the big, wide world, and in the summer we train here.
That means, technically speaking, you're a six-month paragliding school, at least on-site here in Waren. Like how many others? Two flight schools that train in the northern region. Is there a flying dream you'd still like to fulfill? My dream is that this flight school
outlives me. I don't mean that she wants to die, but that in three or four years, I can really sit back, fly every now and then, and say, "Yeah, it's running." And I hardly have to take care of anything in the background anymore. And they're happy when I show up at the site once in a while and still get into the air. And I hope I can fly for a long time still. But I know that, as a rule, there's a limit, and yet something new will be found.
Sometimes your running bones and stuff just don't hold up anymore. Theoretically, you could eventually even start with a Flyjet.
Practically, I probably should, because I have very severe osteoarthritis in my legs and I've been landing on the protector for ten years. That's one reason, for example, why I didn't become a flight instructor, because I can't land on my feet since my knees are so ruined. But it doesn't matter. I learned a lot and met great people back then. Have you ever tried starting with the Flychair? Yes, I've tried it, but I can still walk. And as long as I can manage the three steps of the launch, I'm not doing it with the Flychair yet.
Alright, Dagmar. Thanks for this great story about paragliding in Northern Germany and the exciting setup of a paragliding school, primarily so you can keep getting into the air yourself. I think it's a great story and it's awesome what you've really been involved in all around. And probably within a 200-kilometer radius, you likely have all the people who come to you as your catchment area, everything you've built there, and what a great atmosphere must prevail at your site. It also happened that people wrote to me and said you absolutely have to get Dagmar on her podcast. She's built something so great here. And yeah, without her, there wouldn't be any paragliding for us up here. So, from my side, hats off.
Without all the others, without my friends, without Ruben, without Philipp, without Lenny, without—oh, what are they all called—the flight school wouldn't keep going either. I'm just one point among many.
But it also shows that paragliding, as much as it is an individual sport when you're in the air, can actually only be lived—at least primarily in the lowlands—if you live it as a community accordingly.
Correct. And it wouldn't be bad if we could manage to keep the community together in the mountains as well.
I'll leave that as the closing word. Dagmar, thank you very much.
Thanks, Lucian. The
Links to the Norddeutsche Gleitschirmschule and the videos mentioned by Dagmar Willisch regarding training with Flightshare can be found in the show notes. Podz-Glidz is the podcast of the paragliding blog Flugleits. Both are projects that I have been running for years as a freelance journalist and passionate paraglider, completely independently and ad-free. This is only possible, however, because there are people who appreciate my work and provide me with support as sponsors. Join in. With a paraglider of your choice and a freely chosen amount, you help me present all the different facets, news, and fascinating personalities of this sport to you. You can choose the amount of your sponsorship completely freely. All further information and links on how to reach me via PayPal or bank transfer can be found on the page
And if you know someone you think I should invite onto this podcast, Podz-Glidz, then send me an email at lugleitzkontakt at gmail.com with their name, contact details, and also the story behind them that could perhaps be told here. These kinds of tips are always very valuable to me. Until next time. Yours, Lucian.