Yes, the gliders are now built or optimized in such a way that you can actually change the profile with the rods, with the rod tension, and that's what's relevant in competition, because the top speed is actually increased if it's well-adjusted. But now it's the case that a glider with little tension is actually more collapse-resistant but slower, and if it has a lot of tension, it becomes more aggressive, but a few km/h schneller. So that's why we're actually adjusting the rods, because the manufacturing tolerance is actually too small.
Podz-Glidz, the Lu-Glidz podcast.
Stories from the cosmos of paragliding. Today with Stefan
Morgenthaler and
I'm Lucian Haas
There are a few hundred paraglider pilots worldwide who fly in high-level competitions. And yet, in the end, it's only a few dozen who consistently appear at the very top of the rankings or even on the podium year after year. Stephan Morgenthaler is undoubtedly one of them from Switzerland. The 48-year-old recently became Swiss champion once again. For the second time in a row. And for the sixth time overall. That makes him the record holder in terms of the number of federal championship titles.
For this episode 190 of Podz-Glidz, I asked Stefan how he managed to belong to the elite pilots for more than two decades already. Among other things, we talk about why rough 8-meter wings make him cheer. Why he often dominates a first task but finds it harder afterwards. And how he takes to the air away from the competitions in the Swiss lowlands with the help of a remote-controlled electric winch. Another exciting topic. Stephan Morgenthaler doesn't just know how to trim lines, but also why, with modern competition gliders, the correct rod length can also decide victory or defeat.
I can only present these kinds of in-depth conversations to you because there are sponsors who financially support my work on the podcast and blog. Join in! You can find out how on the Lu-Glidz Gleitschirm-Blog, specifically on the "Fördern" page. Stefan, first of all, congratulations! You recently became the Swiss champion again. And for the sixth time, no less. By my count, you should basically deserve the title of record champion of Switzerland with that. What does something like that mean to you?
Yes, thanks a lot first of all. That was actually the goal. Or one of my goals. To do it six times. And I've been working towards that for a few years now. I actually had a break where I kept getting a podium finish for a few years but never won. And then last year it finally clicked for me. And now this year again. So the goal has been reached. Now I don't have a goal anymore.
Yeah, you could say the next goal is to hit ten, or something like that.
So I discussed with my wife that it should be three in a row now. But that puts a bit of pressure on me for next year.
Three in a row. We'll see what happens next time. You won your first master's title 21 years ago. Yeah. What moves someone more? When people say that was the first title—that's obviously something outstanding because you're becoming Swiss champion for the very first time. Or is it something else, like when you say I have the goal of becoming it six times to really show that it wasn't just a one-off back then and a few followed after, but that there's real consistency in it and you really have to be good. What moves someone more? Or what means more to you?
So, the first title was definitely very unexpected. I hadn't counted on being able to do it back then. And that's why it was such a huge joy at the time. But by now, it's more that, perhaps from experience, I've reached a level where I can really say, yes, this is possible. And in Switzerland, the level isn't infinitely high. Or we don't have as many people reaching that level as they do in France. So by now, it's definitely doable. But still, there might be 15 people in there this time who already have a good level. And that's always interesting.
What characterizes your flying that you're always up at the front in competitions like these?
What I'm good at is reading the situation, building the model, and understanding how the day works. And maybe also having a specific idea that the others don't see or haven't thought of yet, or something like that. That's actually my strength, yeah. I'd say I can pull that off every now and then. It doesn't always work. Sometimes I also have to make sure it doesn't bother me, because if I improvise too much, I'm like on my own or it doesn't work well in a competition. Then you have to go with the group. But sometimes it's a huge advantage when you can do those kinds of things.
You said having ideas to do something differently. Do you have these ideas before a task begins? Or is it something that happens halfway through a task, where you suddenly see, no, I'm flying the other route. I don't like what they're doing there. Or is it sometimes really something where you say, I have my own secret vision of how I want to approach this today.
It can be that it's clear even before the flight that there's an option, like how the start cylinder is organized so that you can maybe approach it from three different spots, and then I think, yeah, that's maybe the best option. But mostly it's during the flight, when something unexpected happens, that new options might emerge or you get info that one route is obviously faster or something—then I tend to see that sooner than the others.
Where does that come from? I mean, what do you have in your eyes that the others don't, that allows you to see something like that?
I think it has to do with the fact that I've been doing this for a long time. So the experience definitely helps with that. On the other hand, yeah, it's something I enjoy doing and I have fun with it.
I said before that I get under pressure. I don't do this for the result. I do it because flying gives me joy, and so does flying together and seeing which option is faster. And when I'm relaxed, then it goes very well, and I'm able to come up with those kinds of... ideas.
I've read that you have a bit of a reputation for being good, especially at the beginning of a competition. You win the first task quite often, and then sometimes there are a few lulls. In this last Swiss Championship this year, you also won the first task and then nothing else. So, is this reputation somewhat justified, or is it perhaps a misinterpreted statistic? No, no, that
it has some truth to it. It also has to do with what I said earlier. When I approach it completely unburdened and carefree, I can just pull things like that off easily. But when I'm under pressure, I have to make sure I control things more. And in that mode, it's harder to do something better. Controlling things is exactly what prevents you from doing special things. So, just now at the SM, on the last task, I made it my goal not to leave the second-place finisher, Dominik Breitinger, alone. And that took everything out of me.
I had to fly behind him and do everything along with him and all that. That was difficult for me, yeah.
But then you weren't following your own tactic anymore, or rather, the tactic was just not to let the biggest pursuer get away. Yeah. You had to, if you kept him in check, then
you basically won. Exactly, yeah. It was actually a comfortable situation, yeah.
2025, so last year it was different. You brought all the tasks home first. What happened then? Or why did it go so well?
To be honest, I still don't know exactly what happened there. But somehow, I pulled it off. I mean, the area this and that, I'm good at that too. I was basically in every competition, either as a winner or second or something, where I took part. I won there in the World Cup too. But yeah, I actually have no idea. It also had to do with them letting me win at times. So maybe one run I can remember, I was a bit behind. But nobody had the guts to fly for the goal. And then I just did it. So, for me, it was quite special that it worked out like that.
Does it make a victory feel especially big if you say you've also racked up a lot of individual task wins? Or is that not really decisive? Or would you already say 2025 was my biggest victory of a Swiss Championship?
That definitely feels a bit more dominant in terms of feeling, even if it's not super close, but yeah, it was also a bit like, "here you go again." I won every single day and so on. It was almost a bit boring. I actually found it more interesting this year because the challenge is bigger. Because the others are also calculating their chances and then they're motivated. I find that more exciting.
So if you don't already know you're the winner after the third task, roughly where you say, I still have one lucky result and other things.
Yeah, exactly.
Does that demand more from you then?
Yeah, I find it more interesting when different people can win. And you can tell by the people, too—they're more enthusiastic. I've experienced that myself, where you kind of give up or something, but you keep going because that's just part of it. But he already won, right?
In your competition career, have you ever had any real defeats, things you experienced as a defeat?
Yes, there was a time when I really had equipment that was actually inferior. And it was regularly the case that I was just at the back. But it was a learning experience, dealing with that situation, I think it helps you progress. And otherwise, yeah, of course, accidents count too. I never had serious ones, but they do happen. Like a tree landing or something. That's happened to me too. A few times.
If you're a competition pilot at heart, let's say, like you, and someone says, "I have the wrong material" or "the inferior material," do you immediately go looking for it and say, "Oh no, I have to, I need a new glider or I need a different harness or something"? Like, before the next competition.
it's already a consequence. Yes, if you realize you're not keeping up and the material is available, then it's obvious that you'd go out and get it. But for me, it was more during the time when the good gliders were actually reserved for the few people who maybe had a direct connection with the company or were test pilots. And back then, you couldn't even buy the gliders. Today, you can choose to use the same material.
That means back then, it was still the open class, so before CCC gliders, where mainly the factory pilots from the big companies always had the best protos available and the others had to fall behind with the crumbs. They had to go flying on the left and right.
Exactly, yeah. You could basically only fly behind them and watch how they did it. And it felt pretty easy for them. But I've also taken a glider where I thought it flew great, and even then, that's not all. You still have to know how to fly it, even if the glider performs well.
Are there gliders that you know fly well, but where you notice they don't really suit your flying style?
Yeah, well, over the last few years, I've probably bought several gliders, actually almost every year I've bought or at least tried out several gliders and then basically went with the one that suited me best. And often it was the case that it was primarily the handling or the demands the glider places on the pilot that were more pleasant. I can handle difficult gliders, but it's still a burden. So if you have a glider that performs just as well and is simply easier to fly, you just have more time or potential to look and
to think of a strategy or something like that.
A difficult glider isn't actually an advantage.
Today, the tasks are flown relatively quickly; they're often finished after just two or two and a half hours. If a task were to take much longer, if they were much larger tasks, would different gliders be flown than those flown in the competition today?
Yeah, I'm not sure. The good ones
Competition pilots that I know can also fly XC. With today's competition gliders, flying XC is exhausting, so being in the air for ten hours, but it is possible. And it's also another advantage, compared to a glider that is easier, you can fly further distances with a competition glider if you can handle it.
Can you handle that? Or do you have other gliders, or a different glider, like a C-glider or whatever, that you say, when I'm just going out for a normal flight, I'll take that one? Or do you always fly with your competition glider?
I have different gliders to choose from. Last year, because of a job change, I had the opportunity to go flying for three months. And I did a few cross-country flights and also tested different competition gliders. And for me, it's always a competition glider when I do that. I can handle it, I'd say. But there are situations where it doesn't have to be the heavy stuff. Or maybe for hike & fly or something, that would be completely reckless.
I actually looked at the XContest here to prepare for this and thought, what kind of flights did Stefan enter? You can hardly find anything. I guess from last year, if you say you were off for three months, you had time. But even then, there are only very, very few cross-country flights in there. There's one big one, I think, from 247 or something. But that was it. There are two or three smaller ones left. And that was it. You fly competition, but XContest and stuff like that doesn't appeal to you at all, or do you just not have any stake in it?
Well, I used to do that at the beginning of my flying career. Actually, to learn or something like that. I found it super interesting to just make your own decisions and so on; I think that's also really important in competition.
I did a few more flights last year, but I didn't upload those either.
At first, I didn't really think about whether I could do that or anything like that. And then it was like, too late, or something.
Do you ever look into that? I mean, do you see that other people are flying, or is that actually irrelevant to you? You fly for yourself and fly your competitions.
No, no, I do watch it. I mean, if it's a good day, you can see how good the day was. I like watching that. And I'm always happy when there are new or additional flights. It's great to see.
Then you're happy for the others. It sounds now as if you don't fight for the air as much yourself, as if you watch more—when you're not competition flying—as if you actually watch a lot of what the others are flying?
Exactly. It's just that I work 100 percent, I have a family, and I fly whenever I can. But of course, it's not every day. And especially with XC flying, you normally can't do that. I'm limited on time and I can't just be away for a day or two and land somewhere else.
Actually, I can't afford cross-country flying in my situation. But I am still interested in it. That hasn't changed.
That means you do all, or not all, but very many of your big wings actually in competition. So that's your main area, where you really go flying. Because then you say, then I'll take these five days, or if I ever participate in the PWC, that's maybe the ten days where I might be there. And that's basically your vacation time that you're investing there.
That too, yeah. And about 80 percent of my flight hours per year are at competitions. Yeah, that's true.
Well, some people would say that those who fly at the front of the competition must be accumulating well over 200, 250 flight hours a year just to be able to fly that far ahead. From what you're saying now, it sounds like, okay, there are a few competitions where they do three or four hours a day before the task actually starts, you start an hour earlier or something, you accumulate a bit there. But you won't get that much total. How much do you fly per year? Last year it was a bit more with the three-month break, but on average, what do you get together?
Yeah, it varies, but for instance, when I'm out there myself, I don't fly for four or five hours. Maybe my wife flies too. We'd rather go for short flights together. Or if I'm with the kids, I can do tandem flights, which are also shorter flights or something. In terms of flight hours, I mostly fly for competition myself. And for me personally, there are some longer flights as well, but yeah, it's already pretty tight, yeah.
Does "close" mean under 100 hours? Or what kind of number are you getting?
The competitions take almost 100 hours or immediately. It's hard to estimate. I don't write it down, I have to say. But it's something between 100 and 200 maybe, yeah. Maximum. Maybe last year with the three months or something. 200.
So, you live in Staffelbach. That's sort of in the lowlands of Switzerland. Located somewhere between the Jura and the Alps. Can you take off directly from somewhere near your home?
Well, the hills here are either too flat or forested where they're steep. That's why it doesn't work. I have to drive a bit, maybe an hour to the next flight site in the Jura or the Alps. And that's actually why I once got an electric winch, so that I can actually get to fly nearby.
Is that a large electric winch you're talking about, where you basically have a winch community with five other pilots and you tow each other? Or do you tow yourself? Is it basically remote-controlled?
Yes, exactly. So the version I bought has since been taken apart and rebuilt. And it has a remote control, so I can actually pull myself up with it.
Okay. Do you go to some farmer you know, ask if you can use his meadow, drive a nail into the back somewhere to attach my winch, and then you pull out 300 meters of rope or how am I supposed to imagine that?
Yeah, something like that, but I don't ask.
So it's also quite difficult in the summer here because the fields are somewhat small and the terrain is hilly. So choosing a flight area is already quite difficult because the crop rotation never fits, or then, if you find a spot that really works, time is tight. I also don't know who the field belongs to or anything like that. But normally I make sure it doesn't cause damage or, of course, that it's mown or something, and also that no one is endangered. That's also important when winch flying.
What release altitudes do you usually get?
Yeah, in Switzerland, it's pretty much limited to 150 meters, and that's already quite tight. But the advantage is that our hills are already about 100 meters high, and sometimes I can pull directly into the thermals. So every now and then, you can actually notice while towing that you're climbing, and see how the rope unrolls instead of rolling up.
But do you do it in a way where you can really operate it all by yourself? Yes. So, in the end, is the winch attached to the back of the car, or do you actually have to secure it somewhere with a ground anchor and then it rolls itself in and that's it? It just sits there.
All that stuff is in my car's trunk, and then it has a trailer hitch. I take out the reel with the motor, attach it to the hitch, and the battery and the control unit stay in the trunk. Then it has an antenna or something, and I have a remote control in my hand.
So you don't need anyone to help you with it at all?
No, you can do it completely on your own. Oh wow.
Are you the only one in Switzerland doing something like this?
No, there are several others who have done that too. Before I bought my first winch, I went to test out a winch, and I now know two or three others who have done it or still do.
How often do you go out to fly the winch in that area?
Yeah, that happens maybe once a week or something, if the weather is right. That means,
you go to work, maybe come home in the evening and say, there's still, there might still be some thermals. I just drive to Bauer XY's field and let myself get towed up, then fly towards the small hill and hope that the thermals are still triggering up there.
Yeah, it happens every now and then that I go to work once in the morning before the traffic, then I can often get back home by three, and in the summer there are still a few hours left.
And have you ever done really big flights starting from the winch from Staffelbach?
Yeah, big in the sense of XC, no, but I'm like, it happens that you can still fly around for two, three hours, so towards the Alps or towards the Jura, I've already been out there doing like a small triangle or something. Or maybe a challenge is also flying around the airfields or they have a radius around them, so Trinkend is near me. And then it's like once all the way around or something.
That's the personal little challenge: I do one big lap around the airfield.
Do you also do that with your competition glider, or do you have a different one for towing, because that might be easier, not as stretched out and all that, so you say you take a different glider for that?
If I really have something planned or if I need to test the glider, the competition glider, because I'm not quite comfortable with the material yet, then I take the competition glider for towing, but the disadvantage is mainly the turn radius and the whole handling of the material and all that, which is just more complicated, and that's why I have a
winch glider that also turns faster. What
which model did you choose as a winch glider for yourself?
A Photon.
But he's not exactly known for being the tightest climber.
Yeah, true, but he has—I mean, I just have a smaller size, no weight involved, a simpler harness, and I'm in and out quickly, plus the weight to haul with is just much more pleasant when I'm helping pull it out.
Now explain to me again, how does the remote control for this thing work? Is it like a little throttle you hold in your hand or how does that work?
Yeah, it's like a...
I actually bought a remote control for a rollboard—you can get those quite cheaply to control electric rollboards—and it's like a handheld unit with a throttle lever for forward and backward movement. I modified that thing so the range is actually about two kilometers or something, and then you can basically operate the whole thing with the throttle lever. There's a status machine inside that pre-tensions the line so you don't have to worry about any slack in the rope, and then the tension is maintained while you're pulling up the glider.
So that signals to me that the tension is good, then I can pull up the glider without having to do anything, and once it's up, I can press forward with the remote and then I take off, and during the tow I have to keep pressing forward on the controls constantly so that the pull remains, basically as a safety feature.
But the tension control, is that all electronic? Does the winch do that on its own?
Yes, it's torque-controlled, so I can actually push forward fully, and then it gets limited to my body weight or something like that. But I can also give it less gas if it's not fitting right or something, so that I can pull with finer dosage.
Could you do that—or maybe that's not possible in Switzerland if you're saying there's a 150-meter altitude limit—but could you theoretically do a staged tow with it, where you'd say, hey, I've got 300 meters of line out, let me pull up, fly back a bit, reel it back in, and let me pull up again?
Yes, the winch is actually built for that. Originally, it wasn't suitable for pulling out because the winding quality wasn't good. So, you'd get overlaps, and then you couldn't pull out when flying back. I had several events where the rope blocked during testing, and that creates pretty dire situations if you fly away and it jams. But it always worked well. Until now. But actually, the winch is now suitable for that, so you can fly out and the rope is distributed well during winding, so that it stays nicely wound up.
If you then have these 150-meter or 100-meter hills there, and you start at the bottom of the valley, what's the reference height—the valley floor—or do you say the hills are 100 meters high, meaning I'm basically allowed to climb 250 meters above the valley floor?
Normally, I go onto the hill or then I have the 150 meters on top. But the hills are so flat that you have your...
300 meters, how many meters of rope do you actually pull out there?
Yeah, so the rope is quite long, meaning I have reserve length, but normally you have to pull out maybe 300, 400 meters for it to work reasonably well, otherwise it gets dangerous because the efficiency of the stage just isn't there. I've tested it before, maybe only pulling out 150, and then you're immediately above the winch, and if you fly back then, you're almost back on the ground, or then with a curve and turning and pulling again, the efficiency actually drops below zero and eventually you have to stop if you can't get back to the launch site. That's not conducive to safety, is it?
And once you've unclipped, does the winch pull the rope in automatically, or do you have to monitor that from above somehow as well?
After the glider is out, it stays the same—if I don't do anything with the remote, the pull will release, so the pulley stays still and the glider just falls down. That's actually how I wanted it, so that I can still influence what the rope does even after the release. Because if someone is in the way or something, I have to be able to stop the rope, and normally I just have to hold the throttle forward until the glider is all the way down. It has a stop mechanism, so I don't have to do that myself. In the end, the glider lies next to the car and, ideally, also in a field and not on the road.
Does it ever happen that you have to land again almost immediately because the rope landed wrong, got tangled somewhere, or something like that, where you're like, crap, now I have to go back down again?
Yeah, that's happened to me a few times. Like, if a rope has been pulled across a field and someone comes along on a bike or something, that's not okay, right? Then I have to go back. That's happened. But normally you can anticipate where the glider will be when you're setting up, and then it's actually fine. Then I leave the gear there for three or four hours and come back later.
So you don't involve your wife in that either. You say, "Look, I want to go for a quick flight, and after that, you drive our car back home, then it's gone from there—make sure the rope is properly pulled in and everything's good."
No, she'd probably do it, but the problem is the reel is somewhat heavy and yeah, it would be a bit unfair if I left the cleanup to her. Normally I do it myself, so if I can manage it, I come back, or otherwise I go and pack everything up late in the evening.
I also fly here using a winch, but I'm here in the Central German lowlands, sort of around Bonn. We have a Lepo that pulls the rope out, so for us, it's an electric motorcycle that we use to pull the lines. You probably have to do that by hand. You somehow take it and then walk about 400 meters in one direction first.
Yes, normally I take the glider out of the car and do hike and fly.
Since you're bringing up hike and fly now, even if it's in a different way, has it never really interested you on a larger scale? I mean, if you see a guy like Kriegel—it doesn't have to be Kriegel himself, you want to be like Kriegel, but like that—you see that he was a multiple Swiss champion and has now become a master of hike and fly and all that. Did that ever appeal to you when you were thinking about whether you should get into that discipline too? Or was that never a thing for you?
So the idea of me being able to do that would be great. I'd be interested, but I've had problems with my knees for a long time; when I go downhill or run long distances, it's actually not possible. So I know from experience that I wouldn't be able to do it at all. But in terms of interest, yeah, I could probably keep up in the flying part. I could imagine that. Maybe not with Kriegel, depending on it. But in terms of endurance, physically, I wouldn't be in. Even with training, it wouldn't be doable.
Yeah, I mean, it's also something you probably have to build up over years. Or if you look at it that way. Even though there are people who say they have knee problems. I mean, there are several—a Gavin McClurg, who used to be a skier, who said his knees are actually totally wrecked. But he's trained them back up enough that it works. And I think Aaron Doroghati also has quite a few knee problems, but he's trained his knees so much that he's still able to do a lot of it accordingly. So where there's a will, there's a way.
Yeah, you're probably right that that would be one way to do it. But then time management comes into play again. If you want to do something like that, you have to train. You can't just say, "Yeah, I'll go to the competitions and do absolutely nothing beforehand." That just won't work.
When you go flying, what are you looking for in the air?
Actually, I just like being up there. The freedom, the third dimension, deciding where I go and what I want to do. And also the challenge of not having an engine, always having to make sure you can get back up, or basically the challenge of being able to realize your own ideas. That it actually takes off. That's the exciting part about it.
What makes you cheer while you're up in the air?
I think strong climbing does that. Or if it was a situation where it was close and it didn't work out, and then you see, okay, now you're over the hump and now it's going well again. That gives you those moments, yeah.
But with a strong lift, you don't have to do as much yourself; it's just nature providing that for you. You just have to try to stay in it and keep the
glider open.
But that's something, I mean, it can be a bit annoying to grind it out in a positive way, can it? But it's something that really appeals to you.
Most of the time it's also turbulent, but that's usually not the problem for me. But above all, it puts you in a good position. Or if you get into a strong climb in the competition, then you're in a better position. That's the feeling. There's just this, there's
degrees of freedom. When you're climbing, you can decide what to do. That's the
uplifting moment.
And is it different for you in competition flying compared to free flying, that you cheer more in competition flying when there's strong lift? And when you're just flying normally for yourself, that you'd say a leisurely flight is actually very nice too, and it doesn't have to climb 4 meters high?
No, well, it doesn't necessarily play a role for me whether you're in competition or not. I still enjoy it regardless. But 4 meters isn't necessarily strong.
If you look at the Alps or something, there are places where it's maybe—I mean, this year we had 8 meters or something at the SM on the first day or something. Yeah.
Okay. And then you cheer? It goes up, yeah. I like that. That means,
the Vario cheers and you... but do you only cheer internally or do you cheer outwardly too? I mean, can you be heard, and do you shout for joy?
You can hear that partly, yeah. Exactly, yeah. And part of it is mutual, or you notice that the other person is also enjoying it or something.
When you say it's turbulent, you obviously have to keep the glider open, but how do you learn to handle such strong conditions?
Flying a lot definitely makes a difference, doesn't it? And for me, it also has to do with how I started flying. I actually started paragliding early, so... How old were you then? I was maybe 13 years old when my father started flying, and I could then take over his glider and we were at a west wind slope at home, so I could practice endlessly. I could pull the glider up and down for days on end, and I already learned a lot about how you have to operate the glider to keep it open.
Well, I think that's something that gets overlooked a bit today. Or ground handling is something you do, but maybe you do it two or three times and that's enough. Can you do it? Have you managed it once? But as for it being truly internalized, I don't think people do that enough.
And you'd say that this ground handling as a 13-year-old on the west slope contributes to you being able to clean out an 8-meter bath today?
I think it still helps me today. Simply that
the reaction you can't think about because it has to come too fast, like if the glider shoots or something, then you're always too late. You can't consciously think about what you have to do there. It has to be an intuitive, direct reaction. And I do believe that you can learn that very well as a child. If you start with it when you're already 40, you won't be able to get it into your little brain that you have to react like that. But with a child, it works.
So, the younger you start, the better you can train your reflexes for flying?
I think that's the case with any sport that requires reflexes.
Are you someone who looks up at the canopy a lot? Or is it because you have such good reflexes that you can't even look up as fast as you sometimes have to react? That you actually say, I feel it, I react automatically like this. I don't have to constantly look up at the canopy to know what it's doing up there.
I do look up a lot. If there's a malfunction, it's already relevant to see what it looks like, what the chances are, or what you have to do to get it to open again.
Then the disturbance has already happened. But often it's like you say—and I think this is also something you learn a lot in ground handling—it's not about how I react once the disturbance has happened, but how I react so that the disturbance doesn't happen in the first place, because I notice very early on: either the lines are unloading or the glider is shooting forward a bit, and I have to hit the brake once very briefly, but firmly, but then immediately let go again, and then it continues flying normally and hasn't collapsed. Do you also look up a lot in situations like that, or do you say you feel it all? Of course, I look then if it has collapsed.
That's actually something I've practiced endlessly, even without looking at the glider or even trying to feel the glider or what it's doing with my eyes closed. It's possible, but of course not always. You can handle certain situations, but if it's intense enough, you still have to look at what happened.
Do you still fly with your eyes closed sometimes today?
No, maybe more without a variometer, but not with my eyes closed.
Let's go back to competition flying for a bit. How do you prepare for a competition? I mean, do you prepare in any way at all? You fly regularly, but is there something you do when you know, okay, the competition is happening this year in Charmage? Do you look at the whole flight area again on Google Earth or something? Is there anything you do? Like, do you try to mentally memorize something, or do you say, no, I'm a natural-born pilot, I know I just have to look at the terrain and I basically know where the lines are.
Yeah, I definitely don't look at it in such detail that it involves flight tactical considerations, but maybe if I've never been there, I'll look at the area—how it's laid out, on Google Earth or something like that—but maybe more to see if I feel like going there or something, rather than already having an idea of what it's like to fly there, because it's often difficult to say what it will be like if you've never flown there, because you can't see the local conditions on the map.
And is there another form of preparation you do? For example, equipment. Do you have to do a lot of prep there, like saying a competition is coming, I first have to trim my glider again, and I'm going through all of that again now?
Yes, well, because I don't fly every day, it's already the case that I have to gather my gear before I go to the competition. And maybe I also check while doing that if the stuff still works or if it's up to date or something. I have to be prepared at least that far, but otherwise, I don't do anything special; I mean, trimming the glider is something you maybe shouldn't do the day before the competition, because, yeah, trimming also involves flying, so that you can see if it's now how you like it, in terms of feel or something. Does the glider fly pleasantly? Yes, and that's maybe the wrong moment if you do it the day before.
That means you're constantly tweaking your glider when you get a new one.
Yeah, that's pretty much standard. I've actually started measuring the glider lately before it's flown. Some might say that doesn't make sense because the line isn't... they have to
first sit it down and do a bit of lengthening and pulling in, and then tighten it properly into the loops at the top and stuff like that.
But just to see if the thing is built correctly. I've also received gliders that I had to correct before I flew them for the first time. So, if you see there's asymmetry in it and it's measurable, you can do something about it beforehand.
And if you go out to fly now and say, I'm trimming my glider, what does that actually involve? One thing is, of course, the classic line lengths, making sure they're within the normal range and checking that. But do you really trim in the sense of saying, well, I want it to turn a bit better, so I'll tie a small knot into the outside brake so the stabilizer is pulled down a bit further? So, are there such subtleties that you also change?
Yeah, I'm not at the level where I adjust individual lines because I think it'll be better; I look more at the line plan to see if the thing is symmetrical or if it has some deviations that you
obviously should correct. And that can be a gallery line that's maybe still a bit too long on a new glider. But then with a used glider, once that's done, it's more about the main line length changing or something, if you have a certain number of flight hours. And even if the outer wing is too fast or too slow, and it doesn't turn well anymore or something, then you can also make the B3 or something longer or shorter so that the handling is right again. So, that's the kind of stuff I do.
Is that something you feel? Like, while flying, do you notice, okay, my glider isn't turning as well anymore, I think I need to see if the B3 line needs to be trimmed? Do you have a feeling for that?
Yeah, you can feel it, yeah, that it's more or less
gets aggressive or something. Or what I've noticed most is, back then I had the lines, they have knots at the back when the glider is new, and then they can open up, and I thought, oh, that's to open it, so I did that and then realized, ah, the glider doesn't fly the way I'm used to or it feels wrong. And then I kept closing it again. And actually, since I started measuring myself, I've also noticed it needs fewer changes than the knots that are in there. So actually, the procedure is
Measure them and then only adjust as much as is necessary, instead of forcing a whole knot.
Since last year, you've also been offering a line measuring device for competition pilots through your own company, or not just for competition pilots, but probably mainly for them, the so-called Skyline Laser. And there are a few other competition pilots involved in that company too, Christoph Dunkel, Roger Aeschbacher. How did it come about that you said, we're starting a line measuring company now?
Yeah, that was actually in Argentina at the World Championships a few years ago. We tried to measure our gliders there and found that it's really tedious with all that...
metal frame and the water dangling there, and they aim at the target by hand and still don't stand in the right spot, and then we found that it has to be done better. And then we chose various ideas on how that could be improved. And also in relation to the competition or traveling, so that you can pack and transport the thing better. And we actually came up with the idea that you can flip the measurement principle, that the laser is actually directed towards the man, instead of aiming with the laser at the target. And this system is actually
developed gradually. So we made different prototypes. At first, the laser and the load cell were in the same device. So the load cell checked how high the tension was in the line. But that didn't work out very well. Now, they are two separate devices. So, in one hand, you have a load cell and a small target, and on the other side, the laser stands on the table where the harness is attached. This allows you to actually measure the glider very calmly and without having to aim too much.
The force cell means you always want to have 5 kilograms of tension, and you have something like a small pressure or tension sensor, like a small scale, built in there. And then you pull, and does it beep at some point when the 5 kilograms are reached, or does it automatically trigger the measurement when you've just pulled the 5 kilograms? How does that work?
It's like, you're supposed to measure at 5 kilograms, and with this system, there are actually several measurements—so it's already being measured while the pull is increasing, and then it's checked: are you actually hitting the target, are you on the target at every measurement or at several measurements, and do the values make sense? And if so, is the 5 kilogram measurement value then transmitted directly to the we-measure system? We integrated that together so that the interface works well, that there are no transmission errors, and through that, you can also see the deviation directly on the handheld display—so from we-measure, I get the target length of the line from the data sheet, and then I can see the measured deviation directly.
display, so that you can judge whether the correct line was measured or something like that.
we-measure is some kind of special software for paraglider line measurement, so I think it's freely available? Is it open source or something?
Yes, exactly, it's available for free for private users. It's a website where you can actually connect the laser. Of course, there are all kinds of lasers, but we actually did the integration together so that you can send additional information back and forth. A standard commercial laser obviously can't compare the target length or things like that. And it doesn't check whether you hit the target or anything. With our system, that's included, and thanks to the integration we're doing together—we have a very good collaboration—it's actually become a great system.
That means you take a measurement now, you pull, and at that very moment, it shows you immediately whether there's a deviation or not.
Yeah, exactly. That's...
That means you can also use it to say very quickly, I don't want to measure the whole glider, I just want to quickly check my three main lines to see what's going on and can immediately see if there's a deviation or not. That means I'm done with the measuring after five minutes.
Yes, you can do it that way. It's just that the line always gets longer when you measure it. So, if you measure the main line several times, it gets longer and longer. And that's why, if you want to measure very precisely, measuring the whole glider or the entire plane is the standard. But yeah, if you're satisfied with a precision of several millimeters, then you can also measure individual lines; that works too.
Since you've become a bit of a specialist in measuring lines by now, how precisely do you approach the trim of your glider? Do you say, okay, I'll do a few knots at the bottom, or do you actually go into the upper gallery line and change that too, trying to squeeze out that last half millimeter? How sensible is that actually, when on the other side you're saying, well, if you pull the line three times, the length has already changed again.
That's a very interesting topic and it also depends extremely on the person, on their character. I've already observed people trimming gliders that are actually already well adjusted, and there are still deviations and such, and in the end, it doesn't fly at all anymore.
He
is perfectly trimmed.
Trimmed until it doesn't fly anymore. But now, with a new glider, I'll invest a few hours until the gallery lines are right, but then it's actually not really worth doing too much. And I also think you can be too precise about it. Sure, measurement accuracy is important, and if there's a five-millimeter deviation, then that's a lot or too much, or a centimeter. But I don't think something like half a millimeter is actually measurable correctly. The measuring device already has a one-millimeter variance if there's no line there or, so to speak, a static distance.
It shows it better, but the
The deviation of the measuring system is already a millimeter. So you can't expect it to be accurate to half a millimeter.
And is it a mental challenge for you, where you say, I have the feeling my glider on the B, whatever line that is, feels too long or too short? I'll check that now with an actual measurement. Is my feeling correct? Do you do something like that?
That happens, yes. What's often quite clear is when the thing isn't flying straight, or if there are gliders that aren't flying straight in the accelerated state or in trim. And that's a very good indication that something is wrong with the trim. You have to be able to find that when you measure it. Then you can correct it. The annoying part is when it's not the line length. Then the conclusion is close: it's distorted somewhere else, and then there's not much more you can do.
In recent years, another form of trim has become an even bigger topic in the paraglider competition scene. That's where it's about starting to trim the rods and shortening the rod length because there's too much tension. Do you do something like that too?
Yeah, sure. You have to do it. You have to do it. Why?
Maybe first explain to people who don't know anything about this yet, why do you have to start trimming rod lengths on competition gliders like these?
That's a good question. I actually didn't want to accept for a long time that you have to do this, because it's really tedious. It's extremely time-consuming and difficult to do because the rods are inside, and you have to turn the glider inside out, then you get in there to shorten them a bit and thread them back in, and in the end, your fingers ache and it still doesn't fit right. But the gliders are now built or optimized in such a way that you can change the profile with the rods, with the rod tension, and that's relevant in competition because the top speed
is increased if it's well-adjusted. Now, it's the case that a glider with little tension is more collapse-resistant but slower, and if it has a lot of tension, it becomes more aggressive, but a few km/h schneller, and the transition is quite sharp. That's why we're also adjusting the rods, because the manufacturing tolerance is too small. That means my last three gliders were well-tensioned from the start, so too well. Then I had to fly, shorten, fly, shorten every time. That takes time and is annoying.
I don't think anyone likes doing that, but you kind of have to with the current models.
But how do you know then, like, that I've cut enough? Yeah, that's difficult. Based on feeling, you're probably cutting away 1-2 mm there every time, so the tension changes again. You have to know, with the Enzos, they don't just have the rods at the front, but long rods that reach across the entire wing at the top, and a lot of the trim is also affected by those rear rods that you make there.
Yes, especially the rear ones. Exactly, yeah.
Because that changes the profile shape a bit, so maybe the reflex component of the profile—how much it can still shoot forward or how much it brakes itself—is influenced by that. But how do you know as a pilot's feeling, you say, okay, I've cut off enough at the front, this is now a good compromise between stability and speed?
So one end is relatively easy to see, when the thing collapses, right? So if it's tensioned too tightly, it's actually less collapse-stable and unpleasant to fly. So my current glider is still pretty tightly tensioned and it has this tendency to get the stabilizer into the lines during a collapse. And that, yeah, I actually still have the goal of getting that out of there. With the last two gliders, I've shortened it until it's reasonably pleasant to fly. But in the other direction, the danger is that if you shorten it too much, then it's just slow.
And, yeah. That's not what you want as a competition pilot. Exactly. You want a fast glider. You want to keep the km/h, those 2-3 that still come out at top speed, right?
But that's basically a science in itself, because if you say, okay, the outer wing is folding, then maybe you only have to shorten the three rods or the ten rods in the outer wing. But that also runs narrower. So, it's probably the case that if you take off a millimeter in the middle, it doesn't matter much. If you take off a millimeter on the outside, in the outer wing, that probably makes a lot, lot more of a difference in terms of the tension lost over the distance. How do you adjust something like that? Or does every competition pilot try that?
Does he need his own special method? Or is there some widely shared knowledge where you can say, "this is actually good"?
If someone had instructions on exactly how to do it, I'd be a recipient of that too. Even though I've already made three or four gliders and feel like it worked reasonably well. But the uncertainty remains that you might cut too much and then you don't know where, and whether I did the right thing, and it's not reversible once you've cut the stuff off.
To be honest, I can't really help with that either, but I try to do it by feel and maybe occasionally discuss it with the developer or something. He gives me a few tips and says you have to do this and that.
I would prefer it if we could change the design of the gliders. I've already discussed with Ozon what could be changed. One idea was to put in a spring so that the rods would adjust.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work because the rods have to be incompressible in flight to be able to fulfill their function. If the profile wants to deform, the rod has to be there and not move away. From that perspective, the spring doesn't work. Actually, it would be better if you had a product that is more process-stable, that you can manufacture and that isn't sometimes good and sometimes too tight and sometimes too loose.
I saw that Ozon now has, if I remember correctly, sometimes even two different pockets in the Enzus where you can slide the rods into, so you can play around with it a bit, a bit more tension, a bit less tension, before you start fiddling directly with the rods themselves and stuff like that.
Yeah, having the two pockets helps a lot; if it's too much, you can switch to the shorter or longer pocket, and if you feel like you've done too much, you can tighten it up again with the other one. That's definitely a good idea. There's extra production effort involved to sew the pockets and such. I still hope there's a better solution in the future where maybe you won't even have to do that anymore.
I saw a graphic from Luc Armant once where he mapped it out. I can't quite put it together anymore, but I think the range—the speed difference in km/h between a totally high-tension Enzo and a relatively relaxed Enzo—was I think more than five km/h. Yeah. As far as top speed is concerned, that's already a lot for competition. And if then someone at the end in the final approach says, "Wonderful, I'm pulling away from you by 5 km/h now," then of course, you just feel left behind and think, "Shit, I cut off too much on my rods" or something like that. How is this actually being discussed among people in the scene?
Yeah, there were years where we didn't really understand that at all, but over the last one, two, three years, it's actually become more and more known that it's relevant and that you have to look at it. Yeah, actually it would be good if you didn't have to do that or if you could deliver the gliders in a relaxed way. Ligar also showed that in a graphic—the problem is actually the speed bar limitation, which leads to having to choose a profile that flies fast with little change in angle of attack. So he showed it like this: a profile that has an S-turn in it, that...
would limit itself and is therefore rock-solid, but with the 14 cm speed bar travel that is regulated, you can't accelerate the profile enough; you would need more travel. And this regulation is somewhat unfortunate, as it actually affects the safety and production stability of the paragliders like
negatively affected. Yeah, that's a dilemma we haven't solved yet.
What's the deal with brands actually, like Niviuk for example, who have the Nitinol rods? Do they also have to use the pliers on their Nitinol rods or how do they do it?
Yeah, the problem isn't just the rods, but the combination with the fabric. And the Nitinol rod has the advantage that it doesn't change length, but the fabric does. And yeah, they actually have that problem too. It's not a big difference. The main problem is actually that when the fabric gets wet, it gets shorter. And I had already suggested that he should then
...should wash the fabric roll before he sews the paraglider. And then he said, yeah, I've already done that, but unfortunately that's not enough, because every time the thing gets wet again, it gets shorter again, and so from that perspective, it doesn't matter at all if it was pre-washed. So I think a recommendation is actually not to get the glider wet, not even damp. But if you look at where we go flying in the tropics and through the rain showers, it's not that easy to implement never getting a glider wet.
Does it ever happen that, for example, you've flown in the tropics, were somewhere in Brazil with a PWC, your glider got a bit wet, and you notice, ah, from one day to the next or the next day, my glider is flying differently, that you actually sit down again that evening and say, I'll get my nail clippers out and go to the rods?
...ran. But for sure. It happened to me in France, at the World Championships. We had a task where there were these light showers and we thought, yeah, that's not bad, we can still fly through it, but it ended up being more than expected and in the end, there were even gliders that couldn't fly anymore, so next to me, a glider went down because it was too wet, so it went into a deep stall, and when I noticed that, I pressed the speed bar and didn't let go until I landed. But the next day, when I took the glider out again...
when I packed it up, it had changed, and I actually noticed it during the flight—it had a kink on the upper
side. I didn't see it, but then you feel that the glider isn't flying well or that the flow is breaking off at the kink between A and B because the rods are really way too long, and I wasn't particularly good on the run either, because I came down like a stone compared to the rest of the field, and in the evening I actually took the scissors or the nail clippers and shortened the stuff, and the next day it flew again.
But how do you know exactly which rod you need to shorten, or do you just go through all 70 cells or however many cells an Enzo has?
So in that case, you saw it well enough; if you had it on the bottom side on the ground and then saw it making a real snake line at the top and giving a kink, and then when you take the rod out of the pocket, it's also way too long or it jumps out, maybe a centimeter or so, and when you put it back in, you feel the tension you're creating. So that was relatively clear, yeah. But I can't say now that I cut exactly the right length, because I might have cut off half a centimeter or something, or even more. And obviously it was in flyable condition again, but I probably cut off too much or it became too slow.
And the glider still flies today; the owner is extremely happy because, above all, it's very stable—meaning the club is stable.
But he doesn't have to fly competitions, so he doesn't say it's too slow for him, right?
Yes, that glider was there at the SM too.
But you shook him off, you were with the faster one,
so with more rods - tension - glider, you'd have been blown off again with a few km/h more speed.
Yes, in that case, maybe that made a difference, but of course, that's actually the interesting thing—during the task in the Alps, you don't necessarily always go full throttle, so that change in speed doesn't matter as much. It's more the tactics that make the difference, right? But then in the final approach, that's especially relevant; so having two kilometers extra is already good if you have them.
Does that also mean if you're doing competition flying and say, I actually only, or I would only fly competitions in the Alps, would you trim your glider a bit shorter in terms of the rods, so you'd say I'm taking more tension out, I have more stability, but then I can keep the canopy open much more easily in the 8-meter turns, compared to the average 3-4-meter turns I have somehow in the tropics, where I ultimately need more speed for the flatland?
Yeah, that would be nice if you could do it that way, but also, in the Alps, there's the final approach, or
From a feeling perspective, I'd say immediately with short rods, because that really makes a huge difference. Like, if you know the glider practically never collapses, that you can get through everything, that already gives you a better feeling. Or if you know that when the next turbulence comes, it's going to catch again and you have to do something to get it out, or something like that. But yeah, those are situations where you actually have to fly a glider that is unpleasant, and that's basically the problem we have in the scene.
Now just once more, really for the sake of understanding: in order to win, you have to fly a glider that is more unpleasant to fly than it actually could be.
I'd say, in summary, that's about it, yeah.
Why do you enjoy competition flying so much then?
Well, I think I'm pretty desensitized to difficult gliders because I can handle the feeling well when the thing isn't flying anymore. So, at the SM, we had a situation where I was a bit ahead of the others and had a collapse where there were loops and stuff, the stabilizer even went through between A1 and A2 and came out the back again, and I thought, oh, this isn't good. But I was able to open it again with a steel and keep flying, and after the flight they said, yeah, you did that well.
You did that well. We were already afraid that it wouldn't turn out okay, right? They were glad it was fixed again. But yeah, I think I don't have to... I mean, I tolerate a slightly more difficult glider than others, if you want to put it that way. And I still enjoy it regardless.
Is that something you'd say is a bit of natural talent from your youth, where you'd say you've done ground handling from the start? Or do you still do regular SIV training with a two-liner today to really train for those kinds of situations intensively?
In Switzerland, we do this every year, where we more or less force the national team into SIV training. I mean, you can skip it, but there's a reduction in your bonus or something. And the goal is actually for people to do it regularly, so the extreme situations and the reaction to them. And I've noticed myself—I mean, I have a background that allows me to do it well or intuitively, but if I haven't done it for a while and then go back to SIV training, I notice that it's not as second nature anymore.
It happens, and it's maybe even more unpleasant. Then I notice that I need to do it again. I think you have to practice that regularly too. It doesn't hurt anything.
Do you also use SIV training to trim your glider? Like, you say, I've taken a bit off now and somehow the outer wing feels a bit too aggressive in its reactions, before I go back up and take off over Lake Walen again or something. I'll just take off two millimeters from the outer tip cells or something like that.
So, put another way of putting it, it's a good situation to negatively influence the glider. So many people are also afraid that the material will break or that it's a
Counter-reaction. If they—there are people who don't go to the safety course with their current gear, precisely because they're afraid it'll mess up the material or that there will be damage to the fabric. Now, my opinion is that it might actually be better if you master the current gear rather than having an accident because you were afraid something would happen to your glider. And sure, it's always better if you take an old glider and go practice again. Then at least you've practiced, but you still have the uncertainty of what would happen with your current glider? And for me, until now, the priority has actually been clearly on my current gear, because I want to know how it works.
Then I feel ready to react if something happens.
Now you're a six-time Swiss champion. Do you maybe want to manage three in a row, which was such a big deal at the beginning, where you might have the seventh one there? At the same time, Kriegel, for example, also takes care of the youth very strongly. So not just the youth stuff, but the youth of X-Alps and things like that, so that he passes something on to the people. Do you do something like that? Does that interest you? And what would be something that you'd like to basically pass on to the Swiss youth, the competition youth, so that they can beat me one day?
Yes, I have to say, I'm not that actively involved. I once had the
I led the radio squad, maybe for a year or so. But for me, time was also a bit of an issue, as I couldn't invest enough of it. But I go to the training sessions regularly, and you can already see that there are people who can develop the potential to participate in the future. And it always gives me pleasure to see that there are people developing who will increase Switzerland's potential in the future. But to be honest, I have to say that I don't help out that actively.
What would the Swiss youth have to do to be able to beat you someday? How do you get there? How do you get as good as you are?
Well, I think continuing to practice probably isn't wrong.
Continuing
practicing means a lot
flying. Yes. And
many competitors
to participate. Flying a lot, yeah, that's certainly a good solution. You could also wait until the old guard gets old, right? That'll probably work at some point too.
You're 48 now. How long do you think you can still fly at a world-class level? Is there a limit at some point?
I think the limit is when you're no longer physically fit, if you maybe can't carry the glider anymore or something, then a limit has been reached. But purely in terms of age, I mean, I was already at a World Cup where someone over 65 won. A few years ago. So it's possible, you can do it into old age. It's mainly mental fitness, not physical, yeah.
Is that a goal for you, alongside the seventh Swiss championship title and the third in a row, to say that you want to win a PWC at 65?
No, I don't think that's a direct goal, but I'd leave it open as to exactly what I want to do. Yes, I hope I'll still be fit enough by then, but whether I'll actually do that or have other goals by that point, I can't say.
But does competition flying fascinate you so much that you'll probably keep doing it for a few more years?
Yes, I can definitely say that I'd like to participate a few more times, yeah.
Stefan, let's leave it at that. You'll be flying competitions for a few more years, and I'll keep my fingers crossed that you at least manage to get your third consecutive Swiss championship title next year, making it your seventh overall and expanding your lead as record champion even further. Then the others, the youth who eventually come along, will have to make up some ground for a few years to reach your level. Thank you very much. Thank you for the interview.
You can find further links to this episode in the show notes. Podz-Glidz is the podcast of the paraglider blog Lu-Glidz. Both are projects that I have been running for years as a freelance journalist and passionate paraglider, completely independently and ad-free. This is only possible, however, because there are people who appreciate my work and therefore provide me with support as a patron. Join in! With your freely chosen amount, you help me present all the different facets, news, and fascinating personalities of this sport to you. You can choose the amount of your contribution completely freely. All other information and links on how to reach me via PayPal or bank transfer can be found on the page www.Lu-Glidz.blogspot.com under the "Support" section.
See you next time. Your Lucian.